ATHF Mafia OVER(roles and whatnot revealed)

[podium123456]

Also seacore, i would like you to comment on my GW and MOI cases.

Votecount (as of this post):
implosion: 3 (Fate, Nacho, VasudeVa) L-4
GhostWriter: 1 (podium) L-6
podium: 3 (GhostWriter, implosion, Seacore) L-4
VibeBox: 2 (Magna, Zinive) L-5

Haven't found a replacement for Zinive yet >_<

@Fate. As of tomorrow, votecounts will be done in the order that the votes happened.

[Nachomamma8]

Coasting is cruise control for greatness.

[podium123456]

@ Fate - Why did you remove your vote from seacore so quickly after you made it? He seemed to be near the top of your recent scummy list, and you said you used some of my reasons as well as your own stated reasons PLUS some more that were 'secret' as a reason that you voted him at that time. i have since expanded the case on seacore a little more thoroughly (in 337)... what are your thoughts on what i added to his case, and why is implosion scummier than him?

I would also like you to comment on my MOI and GW cases. do you feel the points i made are valid?

[Seacore]

Podium, your inconsistencies were the ones that Fate repeatedly quoted. I don't see what was unclear about that. Do I have to quote them too to be able to refer to them?

At the time I voted for you, I was getting the vibe from you, and I think my quotes do highlight that, that you were annoyed at what was being used as the reasons for calling you scum, rather than being called scum. Since then, your general flailing and poor scum hunting has further confirmed you as scum to me.

As for the second half of your vibebox comment. Even with Vibe's other posts, he still read to me with an attitude of "I'll tell you what I want to tell you, when I want to tell you it" and that annoys me.

We still don't have Butterfly posting at all, do we?

I sent him a second prod telling him that either he starts posting pronto or I replace him. We'll see what happens...

[podium123456]

Podium, your inconsistencies were the ones that Fate repeatedly quoted. I don't see what was unclear about that. Do I have to quote them too to be able to refer to them?

... this is the whole point. there WERE no inconsistencies/contradiction... fate was using those terms to describe a different type of problem as i explained to him. i reiterated this, when i previously asked you to show me what you were talking about. that proves to me that you aren't actually reading/thinking about the content in the thread... even though you were more than eager to use it against me. very scummy.

At the time I voted for you, I was getting the vibe from you, and I think my quotes do highlight that, that you were annoyed at what was being used as the reasons for calling you scum, rather than being called scum.

Asking someone to clarify their case on me does not in any way shape or form equate to me criticizing the reason behind the question. You are trying to construct an attitude of mine that the evidence doesn't support. Did i criticize a scumtell once or twice? Yes. Does that mean that my 'whole attitude' was primarily to discredit the validity of a scumtell? Not even close.

Again... what is scummy about criticizing the validity of a scumtell?

Since then, your general flailing and poor scum hunting has further confirmed you as scum to me.

Wow. If you are town, then i had you pegged as a

totally

different level of mafia player. I can't see how anyone can look at the cases i have made on GW, MOI, and even YOU and describe them as 'poor'. Even if you disregard what i consider pretty substantive observations, I

literally

caught GW lying (or misrepresenting if you want to be really nice).

Sounds more to me like you are just repeating a buzz word that you saw someone else throw at me... again.

As for the second half of your vibebox comment. Even with Vibe's other posts, he still read to me with an attitude of "I'll tell you what I want to tell you, when I want to tell you it" and that annoys me.

Okay, then we disagree. Because i dont understand how that if a guy ends up dropping that routine, and thoroughly addresses and explains each point, why he is still considered anti-town. And especially when one of his loudest detractors backed down from the same initial opinion.

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I'll assume that you have no comment on the cases i have asked you to comment on. That fact will be more relevant after we see flips.

[podium123456]

i think you guys are going after low hanging fruit with implosion. a brief analysis of his play will turn up a good bit of bad logic/play... but it's

so

easy to spot that i feel like it's possible that he is just a bad townie right now.

i think the cases ive made against GW and seacore (and even MOI a little) show a deeper level of deception/scumminess going on. other people have criticized them as well, with the same type of deeper level stuff... yet the momentum switched to implosion all of a sudden.

[Fate]

@ Fate - Why did you remove your vote from seacore so quickly after you made it? He seemed to be near the top of your recent scummy list, and you said you used some of my reasons as well as your own stated reasons PLUS some more that were 'secret' as a reason that you voted him at that time. i have since expanded the case on seacore a little more thoroughly (in 337)... what are your thoughts on what i added to his case, and why is implosion scummier than him?

I would also like you to comment on my MOI and GW cases. do you feel the points i made are valid?

I am competent enough to see the pro-town benefit that would arise from me answering your questions about my play and other players, but I refuse to answer them.

[podium123456]

sigh... some people.

ok i guess you're going to be like that. whatever. i thought we could both move on and discuss the rest of the game normally. guess not.

just remember that YOU are the person that pissed on everything i said, tried to shout me out of the game, and used dirty tricks this entire game. it's not really the same thing for you to refuse to answer my questions because i finally had enough of your crap.

i had a reason to stop answering you... you're just doing it out of spite.

(and dont start with the 'but im being nice now' bit. other people asked you to cool it with the nutso style before i got fed up with it.)

[Fate]

Spite sounds like a reason to me.

There are probably more reasons though if you would think about it.

[Fate]

Also unless you have a really good reason for me to be scum there's no need to ask me questions. Not until LyLo if I'm still alive by then (Hint: I won't be). That's just standard Fate-play.

Take notes from nacho, he's doing it right.

[Nachomamma8]

why stretch ya neck when there's low fruit to munch on?
still fruit, ain't it?

[podium123456]

Spite sounds like a reason to me.

Also unless you have a really good reason for me to be scum there's no need to ask me questions. Not until LyLo if I'm still alive by then (Hint: I won't be). That's just standard Fate-play.

that's true... im not so much worried about if you are scum... i mainly asked you that to try and shift the discussion, and some of your focus, back to seacore or GW... in hopes it might bust up this implosion train.

Take notes from nacho, he's doing it right.

let's not be silly...

[Nachomamma8]

YOU ARE DISCUSSION SHIFTER AND ADMITTING IT.

Bad, bad discussion shifter.
Shifting discussions.
And trying to bust up wagons.
LOOKS LIKE YOUR HATCHET IS A LITTLE BIT BLUNT, MATE.

[podium123456]

nacho stfu

[Nachomamma8]

[Zdenek]

Vote: Seacore

Seacore is continuing to use arguments against Podium that have been dealt with already and is spaghetti flinging when he uses comments like "general flailing." See Podium's 354.

[Nachomamma8]

^weak

[Zdenek]

^weak

I've seen scum caught for those things before. Additionally, Seacore's earlier attitude towards Podium could be seen as buddying followed by forced hesitation to vote for him, and then the vote.

[GhostWriter]

If that were the case, he'd have changed wagons by now. That case doesn't work. I've seen it before, and Sea doesn't seem like the type to continue bussing. I can't see them as scum buddies.

[Zdenek]

I am not necessarily accusing him of bussing. He could have just as well been buddying a townie and when he decided that instead of buddying him, he was going to vote for him, he backtracked carefully.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wow. That's a metric fuckton of posts to catch up on. @_@

Prod-avoiding active-lurking non-content Post Go!!!!

How does anyone have a Town read on Vibe again?

I’ll do a detailed ISO case on Vibebox soon since everyone seems inclinded to let him slide.

Last game we played together was Perpetual MyLo (I think), where I'm almost positive you weren't the one who caught me. So, you don't know my scum meta as well as you think you do, and should watch out from clearing people with weak reasoning.

No, the last game we played together was Disgaea 2 Mafia, where I nailed you Day 2 and although I couldn’t convince the remaining Town players (UK was horribly anti-town that game) I did make it clear enough that Kise Vengekilled your scummy butt.

But this brings up something that disturbs me greatly.

YOU DIDN’T PLAY PERPETUAL MYLO MAFIA.

Nacho you didn’t ever post at under this account that game. The one person who did play in that game that I know is an Alt is Rena.

Who is supposed to be Haylen’s moderating alt.

What disturbs me about that is the recently ended Earth’s Struggle Large Game. In that game Rena was a player in Haylen’s game. When challenged by ZachRulez about this obvious conflict of interest Haylen explained that someone else (Nacho) was using the Rena account.

So is Rena a shared Alt of both of you?

WHO IS ONLINE
Users browsing this forum:

So your litmus test for scummy lurking is predicated on finding players who choose not to turn on the Anonymous browsing ability here on MS? Doesn't that just find lazy players instead?

What is wrong with podium's 'scumhunt'?

Are you seriously asking this question. I pointed out exactly what I disliked about Podium’s ‘scum-hunting’ in my review of the case against him. ISOing me should quickly show you my thoughts on the issue. Be advised that based on prompting that is explianed further in this post I have revised my opinion on his scum-hunting re: Implosion.

And you automatically assumed motivations on my #176..without even criticizing the post in question. Why would you assume a scum motivation if you didn't even analyze it? Horrible.

Really? I thought it was easy to identify ‘SCUM INTENT’ in posts even without being able to identify specific scummy things about the post in question. You’ve said so elsewhere. I’d really like to hear your response to this.

I'm trying to figure things out, and I have found a certain undeniable scumtell, and you have no way to explain it.

I've conceded that you may very well be town, but there's just one more thing holding me back.

These statement need to be equipped with knives and put into a pit until only one emerges the battered and bloody victor. Because they can’t co-exist.

1. If the scum-tell is ‘undeniable’ and he has no way to explain it why bother asking him to do so when there is no Town answer?
2. How can he be likely Town when he’s committed an scum-tell that can’t be explained away?

Personally, the whole 'i caught you coaching thing' is way overused (and overrated) as a scumhunting thing. I've just never seen it, or talked to anyone else that has ever seen it, ACTUALLY happen (in a blatant form like that). But i've seen a ton of people try to use it against someone. i think it's scummy, and is an example of someone taking something small/petty in RVS to try and blow it up. (hey gw, where were u on this bud? i mean... he actually made a case and a vote and everything...)

Funny that you attack my comment as Coaching when I never used that word at all. I said that it was “either a veiled attempt at in-thread communication to a partner of some sort or a reaction test.” Notice that the word coach never appears there. Because it obviously wasn’t coaching.

Communicating in thread to a partner of some sort doesn’t have to imply scum at all. There are any number of roles in Mafia that involve searching for someone to make your role more effective. Weak linked Vigs and activated Masons / Neighbors come to mind off the top of my head. Certainly it could be some sort of scum using coded language to communicate (since per the Mod they do not have Daytalk) or searching by or for a Traitor. Which is still not coaching.

You gloss right over the ‘reaction test’ portion of the statement.

So Podium, why jump to right to the coaching conclusion? Was it the easiest way you could prop up your Townread on Vibe?

MOI remains on the vibe trail, and his 177 has some pretty shoddy arguments in it regarding vibe. i can go into detail if wanted, but im leaving it now out for brevity.

**And dont forget that VV (whose arguments were almost the same as MOI's) had backed down from his case... based on the same discussions that MOI is continuing to force the case with. Interesting, no? **

His 238 also includes some pretty lousy arguments. (i have a post open to him discussing some of this)

Love these posts.

1. For someone who has screamed “PROVE IT TO ME” about any number of statements made towards you so far that you are happy to just call an argument shoddy or lousy without substantiation is at best hypocritical and possibly scummy.
2. Care to prove how VV’s arguments were ‘almost the same’ as mine?
3. How should VV’s willingness to revise his opinion impact my read on Vibebox?
4. I note that use of ‘Interesting’ as a means to slyly suggest something is scummy without directly saying so, which is scummy.

The credibility of his reaction/explanation is a different issue than how that statement was or wasn't in context... which was implosions beef.

How do you feel about his paraphrase?

I looked at the post in general. Implosion quotes Seacores ‘I’m used to being accused” statement and makes a vote with the phrases “Excuses, excuses, excuses”.

The paraphrase does take the statement out of context, looking at Seacore’s ISO 4.

So Implosion gets scum points for attacking a point Seacore didn’t make. In that context I will revise my statement regarding scum-hunting in as much as it applies to Implosion.

but 176 really was a superb post. nobody knows my alignment but me...

I missed this tidbit the first time but would like you to address it more completely?

How is this statement possibly true unless you are some third party? Because either as scum or Town the scum-team would know your alignment.

I don't understand what you mean here.

It means that if you truly believed that VV was scummy you would have further developed that suspicion. By, perhaps, pointing out what you perceived as VV’s total lack of input.

But you didn’t … you made that +scumpoints comment and then blessed VV Town when he defended you.

AGAIN... +scumpoints doesn't necessarily mean it is a top scum choice. It could take the person from null to null leaning scum, or from town to null leaning town, etc.. I had more than 2 scumreads at that point, btw.

Can you show me in your ISO, before the VV post, where you explain your 2 scumreads?

Implosion is obviously 1 based on your ISO 15.

You incorrectly attack Seacore for ‘pontial light distancing’ in the same post.

The rest of the ISO before that was defense posts mainly towards Fate and GW. No assertion of scumminess of either in a credible fashion.

So who were your unspoken other scumreads you had by ISO 17?

"you find it hard to believe i would ignore..." ??? what do you mean?

I think it is pretty clear. I don’t believe that someone you identified as scummy (yes, that is what posting someone has +scumpoints is to me regardless of your wonderful ‘taking null to null leaning scummy’ argument) would disappear from you attention completely, regardless of the ‘fire’ you were taking.

Find me one person outside of this thread that thinks those points weren't valid explanations/rebuttals. This is a scummy misrep.

Ummm, what? Are you asking Ghostwriter here to go outside the thread of an ongoing game and solict feedback as a way to prove that the posts in question were not valid and substantive?

I don’t see why you would possibly say this as it is directly against Site rules (Don’t discuss ongoing games) and thus is an unassailable statement. Ghostwriter can’t do what you ask without purposely breaking site rules and possibly being punished and if he doesn’t you can say “See, I asked for proof and you couldn’t deliver”. Horrible statement to make.

A thought occurs. What if podium is a jester? I'm not sure but I think he might be going out of his way to be scummy... he just ignored my question for the second time in a row, and I'm pretty fucking sure it was on purpose. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.

Insert facepalm speculation here. If podium is a jester approaching the pressure in the manner he did wouldn’t be playing to win.

@Ghostwriter re 240

– In the future if you make a large catch-up post please identify who you are addressing in each point. The way you did it here makes analyzing your input horribly difficult.

Also – what happened to your planned review of Vibebox.

[podium123456]

You gloss right over the ‘reaction test’ portion of the statement.

So Podium, why jump to right to the coaching conclusion? Was it the easiest way you could prop up your Townread on Vibe?

9.98 times out of 10 when someone says 'i think that was an in-game communication' and then VOTES the person for it, they are implying it is coaching. I don't think many would disagree. So that's where 'coaching' came from. if you didn't necessarily think he's scum, and might be some type of town pr, then why attempt to blow his cover?

what did you mean by 'reaction test'? i assumed you meant he was trying to get a reaction from whoever he was talking to... what's scummy about that?

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1. For someone who has screamed “PROVE IT TO ME” about any number of statements made towards you so far that you are happy to just call an argument shoddy or lousy without substantiation is at best hypocritical and possibly scummy.
2. Care to prove how VV’s arguments were ‘almost the same’ as mine?
3. How should VV’s willingness to revise his opinion impact my read on Vibebox?
4. I note that use of ‘Interesting’ as a means to slyly suggest something is scummy without directly saying so, which is scummy.

1. Don't misrep me. i SPECIFICALLY said i would include more detail if someone wanted it, but that i was leaving it out for brevity... as i was making a game-wide analysis.

2.

You just called someone on shitposting when you are posting shit yourself. What MoI said, basically.

Because podium is a 'fail', what's your read on him? Do you think he's Town-fail or scum-fail?

Didn’t you just chastise Podium for shit-posting? Because my 6 year old daughter can build a post more clear and understandable than this.

Does being ‘a fail’ actually equate to being scum or is it just for rhetoric?

Sure, there might have been a non-shared point here and there, but this seemed to be the primary focus of each argument.

3. you cant understand that? i thought vibe's explanation was sufficient, so did VV. when you didn't, i found it interesting... because i dont know how much better he could have explained things. sure, it's a very subjective thing... that's why i said it was interesting.

4. hah. the ole 'interesting' bit (which was the semantics issue seacore went after, in the game that you mentioned earlier). are you trying to tell me, that in a post in which I expressed strong suspicion of you, that because i used the word interesting, you dont know my intent towards you? this wasn't anything you did, and it is a subjective and possibly nullish observation... that's why it's interesting. sometimes when someone says 'interesting', they are just using the word.

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but 176 really was a superb post. nobody knows my alignment but me...

How is this statement possibly true unless you are some third party? Because either as scum or Town the scum-team would know your alignment.

i didn't know that i had to provide all possible qualifiers every time i said something like this. a day-cop could know my role to... it was just a figure of speech.

I don't understand what you mean here.

It means that if you truly believed that VV was scummy you would have further developed that suspicion. By, perhaps, pointing out what you perceived as VV’s total lack of input.

Dont assume what i might have perceived, or that i believed VV was scummy. A scummy action does not always equate to a scummy player.

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Can you show me in your ISO, before the VV post, where you explain your 2 scumreads?

You incorrectly attack Seacore for ‘pontial light distancing’ in the same post.

Implosion and seacore. Just because YOU think my attack was 'incorrect' (and hey, i'll hit you with the same sort of qualifier gotcha... how could you know it was incorrect, unless you know their roles? ) doesn't mean that i didn't express that i was suspicious of him being a scum partner.

[GhostWriter]

MoI, don't post your post about Vibe until I do my read through. I wasn't on the computer for a day or so, so I didn't do it through the phone because I get frustrated with it the longer I use it's internet access.

[VibeBox]

Wow. That's a metric fuckton of posts to catch up on. @_@

Prod-avoiding active-lurking non-content Post Go!!!!

There's nothing more annoying than someone who thinks they have an awesome read, and clearly don't. Preperations for a new job have taken up almost all my time since my last post, with my only free time being occupied keeping up with this thread. This has left me no time for analysis.
tl;dr : stfu

I'll be free Wed or Thur so expect content by then, along with a decision on whether I need to replace out.

[Seacore]

I admit that my staying on podium is a little lazy, but I do genuinely find him scummy. Just because other people have been satisfied with his explanation of his behaviour or have moved on does not mean I have to. To just label it as "spaghetti flinging" is not apt. When you consider that over half the posts in this game are podium's, and that his attitude bounces back and forth depending on his mood, it's difficult to address all of it at once. And it's also incorrect to do so. Just because he calmed down at some point does not mean that his early ranting and flailing wasn't a scum tell. It's just a scum tell before a good night sleep.

And I genuinely find it hard to see anything past podium, there's just so god damn much of it.

But anyway, I'm not going to post much in this game until the players we haven't really heard from actually contribute. So that's Vibe, MoI, GW and of course our replacements, which I assume the Butterfly must be by now? Surely?