Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[Alduskkel]

saporovirus,

Vanilla Townie

, was killed Night 1.

Zhero,

Role Cop

, was killed Night 1.

It is now Day 2. With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch.

Leftover time from Yesterday was 2 days. The deadline today is set for the end of December 8th, PST.

[ThAdmiral]

OK, Zhero is a L-2. I'm a bit worried at how fast this has come up. Either it there is at least one scum bussing their partner Zhero, or scum jumped on the wagon of town. At first it didn't seem as bad to me, voting for the lesser wagon, given that werewolf was L-1. However, with the points brought up on the previous page, I'm very strongly believing it to be scum.

I would like you to explain this.

[Gonzoooo]

@mallow - you've said very little this game. I want your next post to be an extensive list of reads and your thoughts on the lynch/kill last night and who you would most like to see lynched immediately.

[chesskid3]

ah crap I forgot about this one.

[lewarcher82]

ah crap I forgot about this one.

implying you did not act at night? LoL


ok, seriously, I am waiting for a long post by mallow, too. Also:

tomorrow

I will be on

V/LA

. But I might post something later. This has to be an intensive scumhunting day.

[chesskid3]

Sure, I'm not the vig, since I accidentally already softclaimed. My B. What I meant to say was that I forgot to actually read this thread and all. Will try to get it done tonight. :/

[don_johnson]

I'm on holiday, but will try to read and post by the weekend. Chesskid premature claim is antitown.

[implosion]

@mallow - you've said very little this game. I want your next post to be an extensive list of reads and your thoughts on the lynch/kill last night and who you would most like to see lynched immediately.

Agreed.

I'm on holiday, but will try to read and post by the weekend. Chesskid premature claim is antitown.

Agreed. However:

ah crap I forgot about this one.

implying you did not act at night? LoL

Why did you bring this up at all?

[chesskid3]

Vig is officially useless now, btw, since vig shooting removes our misslynch at this point. Misslynch today and the vig cannot shoot, lynch correctly and a bad vig shot will put us at MYLO so it would also not be advised.

Therefore scumpoints for DJ for merely going through the checklist of "softclaim = antitown" instead of actually thinking.

[werewolf555]

Bah!
Go town.

[lewarcher82]

@mallow - you've said very little this game. I want your next post to be an extensive list of reads and your thoughts on the lynch/kill last night and who you would most like to see lynched immediately.

Agreed.

I'm on holiday, but will try to read and post by the weekend. Chesskid premature claim is antitown.

Agreed. However:

ah crap I forgot about this one.

implying you did not act at night? LoL

Why did you bring this up at all?

half joke, half serious. I always find it scummy when at daystart a player says "hey, I forgot about this thread"

[Gonzoooo]

Let's stop talking about who or who may not be the vig for now.

Implosion, I'd also like some analysis from you after mallow gets his ass in here.

[chesskid3]

You are aware I replaced in during night, correct?

[don_johnson]

Explain 258 a bit more pls. The word "therefore" implies that your conclusion of handing out scumpoints to sk somehow stems from the idea that "big is useless." R u saying u think vig Shud claim?

[don_johnson]

Ha. Sk should be dj. Damn smart phone.

[ThAdmiral]

Maybe that phone is smarter than you think. Perhaps it's trying to say that dj is an sk.
Also "big is useless" unless you know how to us it properly!

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

OK, Zhero is a L-2. I'm a bit worried at how fast this has come up. Either it there is at least one scum bussing their partner Zhero, or scum jumped on the wagon of town. At first it didn't seem as bad to me, voting for the lesser wagon, given that werewolf was L-1. However, with the points brought up on the previous page, I'm very strongly believing it to be scum.

I would like you to explain this.

Yeah, kind of a "blargh im going to write every thought going through my head post."

So, first off, worry about the Zhero wagon. In my opinion, his wagon in the first place sprouted up way too quickly, so I was speculating that it could have been a wagon on town, which scum had jumped on quickly, or if Zhero was scum, one member of the scum team jumped on to gain town cred, knowing that Zhero scum would claim a power role and not be lynched. Now that it turns out he was town, I definitely believe that at least one scum jumped on that wagon quickly, and likely stayed on it, hoping to lynch the power role anyway.



From the sentence that begins "At first it..." was my ideas on Zhero himself. Originally, I had understood his reasoning for not voting werewolf and causing the lynch, but now that people had written out the case against him, I started to believe that he was scum.

Does this clarify things?


----------------------


also, I still think that mallow is scummiest, but i have yet to do a reread for my other candidates for mafia. Will try to post later today, but im not sure i'll have time, might as well

v/la till sunday

for the holidays and such.

[lewarcher82]

Explain 258 a bit more pls. The word "therefore" implies that your conclusion of handing out scumpoints to sk somehow stems from the idea that "big is useless." R u saying u think vig Shud claim?

Before anyone does something stupid: no,

vig must not claim

. He just must not shoot, for the moment. Vig is not useless. He is just useless in this phase of the game. At game end, on a mylo-situation (and being an open-game, we will know very well when it is mylo), if we mislynch he may save our ass by shooting right.

Also: I would like to assume that we all know no1 must claim. I tend to assume mafia-players are rational human beings (even though the behaviour of the role cop on day 1 kinda shakes my assumption). What I was writing about chess simply depends on the fact that I have seen scum players who pretended to have been V/LA all night... anyway, I was only half serious, so let us stop discussing this.

I want to share my reading of Thad, since I didn't write anything yet. I believe he is town. I liked the way he sticked to his vote on me when someone proposed to lynch werewolf first, and I liked the way he carefully read the post in which I explained my not-even-half-case on mallow. That said, I have no idea what his reading of me is, and at the moment I do not care. I want rather everyone to tell me what they think of Thad, since he is the only new-entry who actually posted some real content so far.

[chesskid3]

Yeah I was not suggesting that the vig claim at all.

[implosion]

Before anyone does something stupid: no,

vig must not claim

. He just must not shoot, for the moment. Vig is not useless. He is just useless in this phase of the game. At game end, on a mylo-situation (and being an open-game, we will know very well when it is mylo), if we mislynch he may save our ass by shooting right.

QFT. Even if there was never any chance for the vig to shoot again, they would

still

be useful as a townie with a special name.

I want to share my reading of Thad, since I didn't write anything yet. I believe he is town. I liked the way he sticked to his vote on me when someone proposed to lynch werewolf first, and I liked the way he carefully read the post in which I explained my not-even-half-case on mallow. That said, I have no idea what his reading of me is, and at the moment I do not care. I want rather everyone to tell me what they think of Thad, since he is the only new-entry who actually posted some real content so far.

ThAdmiral looks like town, yes. He suspected Lew and stuck by it until Lew made a post dispelling his reason for voting him. His reasoning looks solid. Purple Orange is also a new entry who has posted a lot of real content, by the way.

@Purple Orange: please elaborate on this:

Gonzoooo

I'd obviously have to die to prove it, but Gonzoooo was right, and Consig was "confused town," not mafia. And stepping out and preventing the lynch of a VI isn't something scum has much motivation to do. Sure, I can think of an instance or two where it would make sense, but the odds are low enough that I'll mark Gonzo's defense of Consig as a strong towntell, until something proves otherwise.

I'm also suspicious of Purple Orange for a very passive response to the werewolf wagon. I'm not entirely sure if it's passive support or passive dislike, but I think it's the former. In post 214, Purple both dismisses what he sees as reasoning for most of the werewolf wagon, and says that he still thinks werewolf is scum. It looks to me like he didn't want to be on the wagon, yet he wanted to make it look like he thought werewolf was scum. Or, he wanted no connection or even a strong disconnection to the wagon, but still had to uphold his previous position that werewolf was scum.

Vote: Purple Orange

[lewarcher82]

OK, Zhero is a L-2. I'm a bit worried at how fast this has come up. Either it there is at least one scum bussing their partner Zhero, or scum jumped on the wagon of town. At first it didn't seem as bad to me, voting for the lesser wagon, given that werewolf was L-1. However, with the points brought up on the previous page, I'm very strongly believing it to be scum.

I would like you to explain this.

Yeah, kind of a "blargh im going to write every thought going through my head post."

So, first off, worry about the Zhero wagon. In my opinion, his wagon in the first place sprouted up way too quickly, so I was speculating that it could have been a wagon on town, which scum had jumped on quickly, or if Zhero was scum, one member of the scum team jumped on to gain town cred, knowing that Zhero scum would claim a power role and not be lynched. Now that it turns out he was town, I definitely believe that at least one scum jumped on that wagon quickly, and likely stayed on it, hoping to lynch the power role anyway.



From the sentence that begins "At first it..." was my ideas on Zhero himself. Originally, I had understood his reasoning for not voting werewolf and causing the lynch, but now that people had written out the case against him, I started to believe that he was scum.

Does this clarify things?

in part. Still, when Zhero was at L-2, it would mean that some town players were on the wagon as well. The reasons for voting Zhero were pretty good: he seemed to ignore the fact that an early claim is a scumtell. Therefore I want to know: did you find Zhero scummy? Or were you convinced that he was not scummy at all?

also, I still think that mallow is scummiest, but i have yet to do a reread for my other candidates for mafia. Will try to post later today, but im not sure i'll have time, might as well

v/la till sunday

for the holidays and such.

I fail to see mallow's scumminess. He voted werewolf for a reason that I find legitimate. He did vote me following dj, ok, but this is a very little scumtell, so I fail to see the reason of such a strong scumread. Please, explain.

[ThAdmiral]

Now that it turns out he was town, I definitely believe that at least one scum jumped on that wagon quickly, and likely stayed on it, hoping to lynch the power role anyway.

Who do you think this might have been then?

[ThAdmiral]

Now that it turns out he was town, I definitely believe that at least one scum jumped on that wagon quickly, and likely stayed on it, hoping to lynch the power role anyway.

Who do you think this might have been then?

And if you do believe this, why wouldn't you have already started looking through the wagon for who this might have been?

[Purple Orange]

* smashbro was right about the Zhero wagon being ridiculously fast, but going through it looking for anything solid has been a nightmare. I do finally have some brief notes on it, and will post once I finish double-checking them.

* People seem to be waiting on mallow to post before saying anything more about him, so I'll hold off for a bit as well

-----------

@ Lew:

That said, I have no idea what his reading of me is, and at the moment I do not care. I want rather everyone to tell me what they think of Thad, since he is the only new-entry who actually posted some real content so far.

What exactly is your purpose in asking this? I personally don't mind answering, but some folks prefer not to share reads if they're currently coming up "town."

I like Thad's directness, and his blunt and to-the-point questions and posts. I was impressed by the questions he asked me about my own posts. As you noted, he also seems to be able to stick to his guns, but also avoid tunneling, which is a balancing act I haven't seen a lot of folks managing well, myself included. tl;dr, he's awesome and I want to be like him when I grow up, and I think it's more likely he's using his powers for good rather than for evil this round. If he's mafia, he's damn scary.

@ Implosion:

@Purple Orange: please elaborate on this:

Gonzoooo

I'd obviously have to die to prove it, but Gonzoooo was right, and Consig was "confused town," not mafia. And stepping out and preventing the lynch of a VI isn't something scum has much motivation to do. Sure, I can think of an instance or two where it would make sense, but the odds are low enough that I'll mark Gonzo's defense of Consig as a strong towntell, until something proves otherwise.

Gonzoooo was not scum defending a scumbuddy when he defended Consig. He was either a townsperson trying to save a VI from a lynch, or he was scum doing the same, to earn towncred. It's a heap of WIFOM as to which one it really is. But I was willing to bet that the simpler explanation -- "Gonz is town" -- was the correct one.

I'm also suspicious of Purple Orange for a very passive response to the werewolf wagon. I'm not entirely sure if it's passive support or passive dislike, but I think it's the former. In post 214, Purple both dismisses what he sees as reasoning for most of the werewolf wagon, and says that he still thinks werewolf is scum. It looks to me like he didn't want to be on the wagon, yet he wanted to make it look like he thought werewolf was scum. Or, he wanted no connection or even a strong disconnection to the wagon, but still had to uphold his previous position that werewolf was scum.

It was passive support (if I'm understanding your terms correctly). Wolf was my secondary suspect throughout the day. I wavered once or twice (especially during the Zehro case), but rereading his ISOs I always came back to him, and was perfectly fine with his lynch.

I said upfront that I thought my case against mallow was stronger, but that I was fine seeing wolf lyched, and was was willing to vote for him ( paragraph 4 under "mallow" ). I'm certainly not going to shirk responsibility his death; I consider myself as responsible for his lynch as some of the folks who voted for him. Wolf was one of the two people that I stepped out and explicitly argued was scum, and while I certainly objected to some of the arguments people were using against him (214), and thought they should reexamine parts of their cases, I wasn't about to object to his lynch. I thought there was enough to implicate him regardless. Other players cast the final votes for him, but I would have been glad to as well, had push come to shove.

I went with my gut on werewolf, based on an overall "tone" of his posts that I couldn't shake no matter how many times I reread them. I was wrong, and I contributed to his death, whether I technically voted or not, and I'll take whatever blame people care to dish out for that.

[lewarcher82]

@purlpe: no, Smash was

NOT

right about the wagon on Zhero. I categorically reject this statement and I will keep rejecting it til endgame. There was perhaps 1 scum on the bw, but I do not think there were more than 1, and the reasons were genuine and the votes were only 4. Smash could be a smart townie who reached a correct conclusion following weak arguments or a scum player who had no idea that zhero was cop, but knew he was town and wanted to gain towncred by attacking the bw.

@purple(2): I ask for readings on the newcomes because they did not take part in the RVS, so they did not undergo the discussion that followed the RVS. There were discussions about me, gonzooo, zhero (may he rest in peace, or rot in hell for his claim), mallow, werewolf; something was said on implosion and saporo as well, but as a matter of fact we need to understand what you and thad are up to. Replacing as mafia at the end of day 1 can be a big advantage: early enough to dismiss the FoS that were cast on your predecessors, late enough to have a lot of running bw's to work on. Therefore it is vital for town to start working on you guys as well, as soon as possible. I will therefore proceed posting about you in my next post.

@chess: please, comment on the following cases:
Gonzoo's on Lew;
Lew's on Gonzoo;
Thad on Lew;
everyone's on Zhero;
any other case you find interesting.

@implosion: I do not think what you write about purple's behaviour against werewolf makes much sense. But again, such a behaviour would be typical for a scum-newbie. However, I highly doubt that purple is really a new-player.

@implosion(2): you mean a vig could act as a uncc'd and therefore cleared townie? I disagree, this would imply that he has to claim, and besides, since no smart vig would ever claim, we could not trust a claimed vig, cuz he could be scum pretending to be him.

@dj: I have some issues reading you. I see from your sig that you have played a lot, so I will try to read some meta from other games of yours.

@smash: I am indeed very much interested in your case on mallow, which, as I said, I fail to see. The more I think about it, the more I get convinced that a vote on your head could be good for your and our health, since, as far as I remember, you hardly ever had any.

vote: smash