Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[Gonzoooo]

I find it pretty ridiculous that you're suggesting he's faking his RL problems so you'll be lynched when he specifically asked for a deadline extension. Also, do you really think you're in danger of a quick lynch?

Vote Count

don_johnson (4) - Gonzoooo, smashbro_of_the_SSS, lewarcher82, implosion
smashbro_of_the_SSS (2) - ThAdmiral, vollkan
implosion (1) - don_johnson

Not Voting (2) - Purple Orange, mallowgeno

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 8th, PST.

[don_johnson]

I didn't say anything about "faking" problems. You don't see the irony of lew's play? And yes. L-1 with possible lurking scum is 100% in danger of a quicklynch.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd 367: and you brought this up BECAUSE........???????? If you were town, this is another one of those things that you would have

no reason to say

.

I didn't want anyone else to say "yeah, the vig is clearly an idiot" because that would round down who the vig was even more.

General plea to everyone: lets stop talking about the vig now, shall we?

This I agree with.

[don_johnson]

so yeah. i'd like some other players opinions on the case presented against me. particularly volkan and gonzo. it would be nice to get mallow replaced. i have a busy weekend so i won't get around to shredding implosion until sunday night/monday or so. if you guys haven't posted i'll go ahead and do it. i'm surprised gonzo doesn't see the double standard lew just employed. i have always taken gonzo/vp to be a thinker. please understand that i don't have a problem with lew's vote being on me while i'm at L-1, it just doesn't jive with what he said earlier regarding having smash in the same position. and going v/la while you're on a bandwagon that is sitting at L-1 is not good town play. there is no reason why town lew wouldn't simply remove the vote and replace it with an FoS or some such similar posted sentiment. if he's coming back two days before deadline, he would have plenty of time then to replace the vote. but whatever. i'd like other opinions. i'll have more after the weekend. i'll claim on threat of hammer.

mod: third for extension.

[ThAdmiral]

looking back at the block. lew already has a vote on me, and it's obvious that TheAdmiral and Gonzooo also thinks im scummy. Just as votes and ta-da! insta-wagon! just add votes! but on a more serious note, he gets away with a vote on me, saying "he's not sure quite why" and trying to persuade 3 more votes on me. he pretty much wants to say you guys do the work, I'll vote with you.

This part is the more-or-less-convincing case I was referring to.

The only problem I have with this is that it wasn't like dj was doing it in some clandestine, back-alley way. He more or less came out and said just that; i.e. he wanted the people he believed were town to vote in a block and then he would follow.
If he really did believe gonzo and I were going to vote smash why wouldn't he had a) waited for us to do so and then joined the wagon (although this

could

have looked scummy even just an "I agree with this" probably would have gotten by without too much heat), or b) made a case of his own to vote smash. The nonchalant nature doesn't make me think scum. It's a null-read imo.

[ThAdmiral]

Also I hate extensions when I am scum, so...

fourth'd for the extension

[Alduskkel]

I will extend the deadline to the end of December 13th, PST. These 5 bonus days can not count towards the possible extra time in the next Day round.

[lewarcher82]

Quickly from my smartphone (last post til end of v/la on monday) and sorry fot the bad fotmatting. I have no time to read the thread but i did not realise that implo was voting dj.
I dont know if i woud leave the wagon if i were here, but in this situation dj is correct askin me to unvote him during my absence

unvote

[vollkan]

@vollkan: I categorically refuse to accept that backtracking is necessarily a scumtell. It is not. I change my mind a lot of times in every game. For instance, I have been FoSing gonzooo, and now I am not FoSing him anymore, as a consequence of my change of mind about consig/purple (cuz purple looks pro-town to me). Does this contribute making me scummy?

No, because what you did wasn't backtracking.

You have changed your view about purple based on evidence and that has altered your view of things. That is not only understandable; it's exactly what people should be doing.

That's completely different from where a player changes position for no apparent reason, especially where there is a clear scum motivation for that shift.

i think i'm moving implosion up the scumlist. i didn't catch it the first time around, but he initially questioned my vote on lew saying he "could see where i was coming from" but that he thought it may not be that big a deal. then his consig case was based entirely on the idea that:

Where the heck I'm coming from is that the mafia has a specific incentive to look like something that they are 100% not. If posts contain specific attempts at blending in that do not contain useful information, it's scummy.

which is basically identical to my reasoning for the initial lew vote. just because consig posted a little later in the thread, does not exclude him from being able to be extended the same "repreive" that he gives lew. he says lew's post "may be just a bunch of smilies". but he never gives consig that benefit of the doubt.

just reading a few iso. full thread reread later. but in any case. lew and implosion both seem to be looking worse as this day drags on. smash could still fit as the third scum, but reading him he could just be apathetic town. not enough evidence to take him off the lynch list yet, but certainly an

unvote

for now.

vote: implosion

until further notice.

tl;dr OMGUS. Nicely done.

1) What do you mean by OMGUS?
2) Why is it scummy?

[don_johnson]

volkan: what i mean is, do you think its something more than coincidence that both the players i have accused today have moved their votes to me in response? have you read either of their cases against me? do you think their points are valid or no? like i said, when i get the time i am going to shred implosions post, but i would like to see what others think as i will find complacence without response a bit scummy.

[Gonzoooo]

You don't see the irony of lew's play? And yes. L-1 with possible lurking scum is 100% in danger of a quicklynch.

Well, my guess would be that if lew had some serious things going on IRL, then strategizing for a game of mafia was pretty low on his list. But anyhow, he unvoted you so I guess you can relax.

@ThAdmiral and volkan - what are your thoughts on the dj wagon?

@smashbro - where are you at? You haven't said anything since the attention shifted away from you? Lurking and crossing your fingers?

[Alduskkel]

Purple Orange and smashbro_of_the_SSS have been prodded.

[don_johnson]

You don't see the irony of lew's play? And yes. L-1 with possible lurking scum is 100% in danger of a quicklynch.

Well, my guess would be that if lew had some serious things going on IRL, then strategizing for a game of mafia was pretty low on his list. But anyhow, he unvoted you so I guess you can relax.

at no point was i not relaxed. you seem to have missed the entire reason for my earlier post. but whatever. his rl problems weren't overwhelming enough to keep him from checking in on the game and unvoting, and they weren't serious enough for him to replace, so pointing out that he was willing to leave me at L-1 after professing his disdain for the smash wagon being at L-1 even though he was still suspicious of smash at the time, is all i was doing.

@ThAdmiral and volkan - what are your thoughts on the dj wagon?

^^ this. i'm not sure why everyone is avoiding this issue. both smash and implosion have posted cases against me, and noone seems interested in addressing them.

@smashbro - where are you at? You haven't said anything since the attention shifted away from you? Lurking and crossing your fingers?

its funny how that works.

[ThAdmiral]

I put down some thoughts about the dj case in 379.

[don_johnson]

Fair enough. What are your thoughts on implo and smash?

[implosion]

Also I hate extensions when I am scum, so...

Are you saying that you asking for an extension makes you town? If not, what do you mean by this and why did you say it?

volkan: what i mean is, do you think its something more than coincidence that both the players i have accused today have moved their votes to me in response? have you read either of their cases against me? do you think their points are valid or no? like i said, when i get the time i am going to shred implosions post, but i would like to see what others think as i will find complacence without response a bit scummy.

Again, I didn't move my vote to you in response to you voting me. I read recent posts, found you the scummiest, and voted you. Just because I saw that you had voted me, that doesn't mean I'm not going to vote you if you're the scummiest.

[ThAdmiral]

Also I hate extensions when I am scum, so...

Are you saying that you asking for an extension makes you town?

That, or that I am scum doing something that I don't like doing as scum.

@don: I think my thoughts on smash are pretty well documented. Implosion I am not sure about at present. I would have to reread him. But gut puts him lower than normal on my town list.

[Purple Orange]

Woo, prod.

I'm alive, and currently halfway through reread of the thread. Been slacking a bit there. :/ I don't think posting my quarter-baked conclusions based on half the content would be optimal, so holding off until I finish the read. Should have something by tomorrow at latest. Trying to finish this evening.

Mod: How are we coming on that Mallow replacement?

I'm not exactly a fan of extensions, but the dearth of content from that slot is really crippling my attempts to analyze stuff. Need to hear SOMETHING, ANYTHING from it to narrow down some crazy variables. So...

5thing the extension request, if we can't get someone in here pretty much immediately.

[implosion]

Also I hate extensions when I am scum, so...

Are you saying that you asking for an extension makes you town?

That, or that I am scum doing something that I don't like doing as scum.

...So, WIFOM.

Also @Purple, the extension's already been granted.

[Alduskkel]

^Indeed.

No luck on a replacement for mallowgeno yet.

[Purple Orange]

Also @Purple, the extension's already been granted.

Oh, woops. Yah, I see it now. Thanks, Alduskkel.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

--- until that point, no, i did not think Consig scummy. When i went back over the thread and saw what others had pointed out, I started to believe that Consig was scum. It's a crime to change my mind?

It is fairly serious circumstantial evidence when there is no clear reason for the change (you still haven't given one) and the change has a patent scum motivation.

--- I saw it scummy for it to build up as fast as it did, probably with scum trying to look more townlike. I agreed with the reasoning behind, but I usually am suspicious when something happens to fast. leads to "mistaking how many votes there were" and early lynches.

You aren't addressing my argument.

If you had simply said "I agree with the reasoning, but this wagon is too fast" that would have been fine.

But you didn't. You not only agreed with the reasoning, but you also announced your own intention to join the wagon "in a day or two".

ok. sorry about changing my mind. But all I can say is that during my reread, Consig looked scummier than before.

Ok. I assumed that saying I would be joining the wagon meant that I agreed with the rationale. I said that the wagon was going too fast, which is why I didn't vote right away.

Don

on page 2 votes for lew because of smilies.
on page 4 he returns, but doesn't comment on anything that has happened, only defending his vote by saying

quick response there, powerox. vote about "smilies" really shouldn't be confusing. especially since i explained it thoroughly. what about it "confuses" you?

what exactly "happened" that you feel i should be commenting on at that point in the game?

Consig, his actions, and whether or not he was town or scum.

after the above quote, he removes his vote,

as the wagon obviously didn't pick up steam

.

bolded is the add-on commentary opinion. what i posted was "lew's response was acceptable". so again, so far the case is basically a summary. kind of like a book report one might put together in the fourth grade.

I'm getting somewhere with this. You put a vote on a person for a reason, and removed it once no one really agreed with it.

he also suggests going to another reason, but says he has to read over the game. sounds innocent,

but could be that he wants to test the waters and see who people would agree with a wagon on.

at the time there was a 4 person Consig wagon, but it probably would have been scummy to join that wagon so suddenly. something interesting to note is that gonzoo did not have any votes on him at the time.

anything "could be". our job is to find out "what is". this is just speculation. and funny, here smash describes a move to the consig wagon as something that might be "scummy". did consig flip town? how do we know that consig is not, in fact, scum? this is a grand assumption here. PO has been posting town, but if smash thinks the move to the consig wagon would be scummy, and that dj didn't do it, then this part of the case should read:

DJ ISN'T SCUMMY.

moving on...

I'm not saying that Consig/PurpleOrange is town. I'm saying that it would be scummy to jump on a large wagon early without anything to suggest that you were interested in the wagon. This part of my case is about the fact that you say little about anything, and instead say I will reread the thread. this gives you more time, and the Consig wagon would either get enough evidence that no one could ignore the evidence, so you wouldn't have to post a case, OR that the wagon would fizzle out and you could say "obviously Consig is townie, what are you guys talking about?" and you wouldn't have gotten your hands dirty by voting a large wagon.

comments like this irk me. He shows that he's willing to go on the mallow wagon, and jumps on the zhero wagon once the case is brought up again, and a second person votes mallow.

it "irks" you? how? why? if i recall correctly, i was one of the pioneers of the zhero wagon. my iso 7 is wall of text which clearly explains my move to the zhero wagon. dismissing it by describing my move to the wagon as a mere "jump" is slightly off.

don't have too much time to look into the iso's and all right now, don't want to be online too long. make sure i check this tomorrow, so it's fresh in my head.

looking back at the block. lew already has a vote on me, and it's obvious that TheAdmiral and Gonzooo also thinks im scummy. Just as votes and ta-da! insta-wagon! just add votes! but on a more serious note, he gets away with a vote on me, saying "he's not sure quite why" and trying to persuade 3 more votes on me. he pretty much wants to say you guys do the work, I'll vote with you.

and here is the "convincing" part? this sounds like a description of how one goes about getting a suspect lynched. you encourage others to vote with you, while voting one of your top suspects. is it suddenly suspicious to try and organize the lynch of a suspect in the game of mafia? how would you describe other wagons? like mine for example. i have just accumulated a couple of votes. is it an "insta-wagon"? and if so, is that scummy? all this is is more "summary". summary =/= analysis.

You get a suspect lynched by saying "hey, let's all vote for someone

you

think is scummy, but I won't say why just yet, because none of you have. Had you made up a case on me, then I would understand your vote. But you didn't. You voted me without reason, and encouraged others to vote me and give reasons of their own. Not making a case yourself + getting others to vote = scum.

scum-tastic. i used the unvote from rvs because first mallow says he agrees with you, then unvotes, saying he was just trying to humor you. you said the vote was serious.

mallow agrees, therefore his vote is serious

. then he takes it back completely. i don't call this rvs

ooh. he's broken out the big guns. descriptor words. "scum-tastic". let's break this down:

i used the unvote from rvs... i don't call this rvs

he is still using the events of the rvs to condemn mallow.

your case is tied into how mallow acted in the rvs. his initial backtrack from his rvs vote is the main gist of your entire case against him. your failed logic doesn't absolve you(its bolded). in rvs, people do things for reactions and such. people work to create pressure. mallow

may

have been doing just that. do you still feel strongly that mallow is scum?

yes. he has knowingly lurked through most of the game, giving minimal support and opinions on his leads and votes. I still believe that the above quote makes him scummy, but that isn't what my case on him is centered around.

it could be scum picking on an easy target, ok. you could also be scum picking on an easy target, someone who a few players said they found scummy, and not posting much of a case yourself (aside from the above, which is not strong).

logic fail. can't say my case and your case are similar and that my case is not strong, but then vote me. its just silly.

confused at your comment. explain?

also, as was mentioned, the claim and move on wording is weird.

weird how?

just didn't like the wording of it.

Even if I was, there are two more scum out there. and you feel you don't need to do much more at this time? How is that helpful?

if you are scum, then i am satisfied with the job i have done. finding scum is helpful. one at a time is the best i can do.

this seems to me that it's scum, taking one day at a time, getting one townie lynched at a time.

yes, that warrants your statement. You fail to see that i continued to say mallow was scum and said i would return with a bigger case. I've been calling a couple people scum at once, and putting my vote on one of them. so yes. i have called mallow scum and put my vote elsewhere.

did i miss the "bigger case" on mallow?

mentioned above, his lurking and minimal help to the town.

you've fine with lynching either mallow or me? mallow is my top scum read. you did express interest in voting mallow, when you said competing wagons were good.

By doing that you rid yourself of being on a mislynch.

But your read on mallow mustn't have been very strong, was it? because when Zhero claim, you went to the werewolf wagon, thinking now that Zhero wouldn't be lynched, you would do well with a werewolf lynch.

please explain the bolded. i am unclear as to what you are implying and i would like clarification before i respond to this section. also, why have you done nothing to convince me to vote mallow?

i have posted my case on mallow, multiple times. I can quote it again if you'd like.

By voting for a competing wagon, you allowed yourself to avoid putting a vote on the werewolf(town) wagon, and therefore the scrutiny that comes the say after. I'm sayign that your move to mallow was just so that when werewolf (the more likely lynch) would probably flip, you would have hands clean and a suspect for the next day already.

--- You first say it is scummy for me to leave my vote on someone who will not create a fuss over it. Then you say it is scummy for me to move my vote to other people. What?

I can see how you would get that impression but that is a slight misrepresentation of what I am saying.
Essentially I am accusing you of trying to fly under the radar. I believe you are doing this by keeping your vote on one person, and voting other people only when they have copped a bit of heat and look like potential lynches.

I have not been keeping my vote on one person. Though I have had my vote on, and believe mallow to be scum, I have paid attention to others. I can see your point about only voting others when it was popular, but since I believed that mallow was scummier than anyone else, I focused on him most of the day. If someone was close to lynch, or a popular wagon, I moved from mallow to hopefully learn more about their views, activities, and hopefully get a better read on them.

@smashbro - where are you at? You haven't said anything since the attention shifted away from you? Lurking and crossing your fingers?

sorry, had a busy weekend. planned to be on more. If I had been scum, I would have popped on every so often and made small posts to push the dj case further, hoping for a quick lynch and the day to be over.

[don_johnson]

Not making a case yourself + getting others to vote = scum.

false.

By voting for a competing wagon, you allowed yourself to avoid putting a vote on the werewolf(town) wagon, and therefore the scrutiny that comes the say after. I'm sayign that your move to mallow was just so that when werewolf (the more likely lynch) would probably flip, you would have hands clean and a suspect for the next day already.

only problem here is that i was on the wolf wagon. so i didn't "avoid the scrutiny".

what do you think of implosion?

[ThAdmiral]

Also I hate extensions when I am scum, so...

Are you saying that you asking for an extension makes you town?

That, or that I am scum doing something that I don't like doing as scum.

...So, WIFOM.

Yes.

[lewarcher82]

I am back. This morning I have quickly re-read the day2 (but I did not read all the long post by smash, yet, I'll catch up asap) from a different perspective, or at least I tried to. As a matter of fact, I tried to ignore the micro-content of every single post and to concentrate on the dynamics: who was voted and how did the other players react.
First of all, I think that a premise is necessary. We are playing in an almost-reverse situation. In fact, since a mislynch, a misvig and copdeath happened almost at the same time, town has now a last ml.
The chaotic situation we found ourselves in at the end of day 1 made it very easy for scum. Scum can do almost anything; no one can be fosed for voting cop, except perhaps saporo (as DJ pointed out), who is now dead, and no one can blamed for lynching werewolf, who was definitely scummy and made a pointless early VT claim. Therefore, scum didn't even need to push for a lynch. And this is the reason why the events of day 1 are little help to scumhunt.
Consider even my post at twilight, in which I asked the vig not to claim. Zhero commented that it was very pro-town, but I would have posted it even if I were scum. What did I have to lose? Cop had claimed, a vig had very few elements to decide whom to kill... scum had a big advantage, and they could very easily find a way to appear pro-town.

So day 2 started, and DJ proposed a voting block. I found it ok, the I realised that a 4-player block would have automatically put teh target to L-1. However, my decision to unvote smash was prbably excessive. In fact Smash remained at L-1 for quite a long time, and no one quicklynched him. The likelihood of ALL scum voting him is very low, and if I consider that I know I am not scum and Thad gave me some towntells, I would assume that it is very likely that at least 1 scum was not on his wagon. Think of it the other way round: would scum compactly vote for a town on day 2, in a situation in which spreading votes would probably appear much more pro-town? Probably not.
On the other hand, as smash presented his case on DJ, almost everyone - except me, and I don't know if I was right or wrong, yet - found it a bad case. If smash were town, it would have been a prefect time for a scum player to hammer him. Gonzooo could have done it; Purple could have done it. And - more interesting, given his lurking and his OMGUS vote on DJ (it looks like a OMGUS-vote to me) - implo could have done it. Yet no one did it. Why?
It is my opinion that one (good) explanation for this is that smash IS in fact scum. I have no idea if DJ is town or bussing scum. He seems to react with violence to everyone voting him, but given his record I would have to assume that, as scum, he would know better than this.
Therefore, I am reconsidering the option of a smash lynch; however, I need time to read the wall he wrote.