Mini 1091 Mafia Mania -- Game Over

[Dekes]

Thanks for taking over, NS (though I feel bad for pacman...I know what it feels like to wait in that queue)

/confirm

[Dekes]

And that's nine.

Ohai, Mariyta!

Vote: Mariyta

[Dekes]

Picked up prod, just got home, 3 a.m., got snowed in, post tomorrow. Good night everyone.

[Dekes]

Fuck me. Procrastinating and busy schedule sucks, sorry all. Heading out to a party now. You'll have to wait one more day for my post, but I'll make that count.

[Dekes]

Finally have some time at my hand. And I will have from now on over the next weeks.

- The moose wagon was silly but apparently unavoidable considering how he has presented himself so far: nothing I'd call outright scummy but definitely completely useless. Unless he picks up the pace from now on he should either get vigged if there is a vig in the setup or be dealt with later. There are scummier people to deal with right now.
- I agree with Mariyta about the wall o' texts. I'm not entirely against them but if game theory and silly misunderstandings are getting blown out of proportion in them (I'm looking at you, boberz and Hikari) it's getting to the point where they are cluttering the thread and aren't any helpful at all.
- I actually agree again with Mari in that I think Lord is scum: Riding the popular opinions and wagons, staying under the radar, posing some alibi questions that aren't investigated further.

Mari, if you think both Beefster and LC are scum, why did you choose to vote the empty wagon over the Beefster wagon? Seems like a wasted vote.

- Not a fan of [http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 668779=url]these kind of things where someone announces pressure on somebody else. I think Substrike did something similar early on. If you announce the pressure how will you create pressure? The votes just seem so much less threatening afterwards.

- Substrike's post on me was really awful as Lateralus has pointed out. What kind of information were you hoping to get from an absent person? If I hadn't posted for another 24 hours I would've been replaced. But instead of pressing active persons you suspect (which you arguably have looking at your posts) you go after me.

The fact that Sub avoided the Beef wagon on which LC hopped on gives me a rather good feeling about Beef. IIRC the case on him was mainly based on a whacky, empty accusation of him against boberz and it developed from there...if there's more to it, please I'd like, to hear it.

Vote:Substrike

[Dekes]

@Substrike
Reading is tech.
I used the mighty word "if" regarding any possible vig. If you want data, I just checked the last 5 completed mini normals, and three of them had (One-Shot) vigs. In any case, I was merely pointing out that moose had been not productive for town and yet not remarkably scummy and those people are usually better vig targets than lynch targets.


Moose's softclaim episode was just ugh. Dude, you really oughta smoke some pot before visiting this site to calm the hell down. There was no need at all to softclaim there. Enough people were clearly against your lynch.
I personally believe the softclaim but anything beyond that about how poweful that role is seems like some poor gambiting by moose. In any case, we should know more tomorrow.

@AntB
Do you have any other suspects? You seem to be hardcore deadset on moose and moose only. Tunneling is not a scumtell at all, but you should try looking at the bigger picture and ponder every possibility like moose being town. Who else do you find suspicious?


Don't like boberz' latest lazy behaviour. Since his latest wall o' text post mainly with Hiraki all he did was giving out some snarky one-liner opinions without backing any of them up.
If you think Hiraki is scum, then present a solid case and I'll look into it. I don't know about the others, but I began skimming over Hiraki and your wall o' text wars after a while. And unless one of you flips or comes on my scum list I'm not interested at all in seeing who's winning the "Is an FOS a scumtell or not"-debate.

And finally,

Unvote; Vote: Beefster

Yep, I know I said Beefster was town. But that was based on the fact that Substrike (one of my suspect) had Lord Chronos (my other suspect), Beefster and moose as suspects and yet decided to avoid the Beefster wagon (where LC was on) and LC and instead went moose - me - moose. But now that brokenscraps has somehwat redeemed LC, it seems that LC was rather disinterested in the game than scummily lurking. So that voids my theory of Substrike avoiding a wagon where his partner is on if brokenscraps is town.

Beefster's discrepancy between saying "moose has to fullclaim now" and "there's no point for moose to claim" within two posts is just too hard to overlook. I'll look into Beefster later for more, but the vote seems good for now.

Also, I'm sick at looking at the moose wagon. Too bad a Substrike wagon wouldn't liff off. With the only person softclaiming moose has painted a bull's eye on his back anyway, and even if not, dude said, he could prove himself tomorrow. So what exactly is there to gain if we lynch him today?

[Dekes]

I said "What are you hiding?" not "CLAIM PLZ". It was a rhetorical question.

Bullshit.
What answer would you expect from him but an elaboration on his softclaim?

Also @Dekes, your reason behind voting me is kinda convoluted. Care to use logic?

It has to do with what happened to my town read on you. But I've explained that.
If you want more reasons, I took the time and looked through your Iso:
- I don't like how your reason your suspicions in wiki scumtells like "overdefensiveness" and "chainsaw defense" who are either outdated, no scumtells in the first place or don't even apply here. An easy way for scum to feign scumhunting attempts.
- I don't like how you stay vague with your attacks, but you request others to be specific on several occasions. Double standards anyone?
- I don't like how you expressed suspicion towards Substrike, yet you didn't vote him because you wanted to wait for a votecount. Fair enough. But instead of voting him after the next votecount, you pick on brokenscraps who had just made more or less a case on you. You add some more common wiki tells to your reasoning (buddying, fencesitting) and ignore Substrike. A quick way to attack your buddy and then deflect onto another target?

There you go.


@werewolf
Welcome!

And what boberz said.


Also, this town is suffering from a severe case of laziness (unfortunately I'm guilty of this as well). Deadline's the 29th and Christmas is before that.
So pick it up, guys, get your accusations and votes in. No more could be's and might be's here, solid attacking and reasoning is necessary now.

@mod:
Can you prod Mr. Wright, please. I saw him flaking out of another game so you might be hitting the replacement list very soon.

[Dekes]

I meant, make a better case on Beefster than a full PBPA with more fluff than evidence.

But, wow, that is your answer?

Fos:werewolf

[Dekes]

Don't be a dick, boberz. Aggressiveness is good, being an outright ass isn't healthy for anyone, especially not for the fun of the game (remember: game, fun, etc.?).

However, I'm gonna roll with you on the werewolf wagon for now. I haven't looked through Hiraki's tedious Iso yet, but werewolf is already deserving of a vote:

- He comes in with a full PBPA on the popular wagon. Big posts always look good as a replacement, but this one doesn't contain anything new and even worse, a lot of useless stuff.
- Upon asking on a elaboration and showing us several links why he thinks Beefster is scummy, he provides the single contradiction that has already been brought up by two different people not two pages ago and that's it
- After his predecessor is being called scum by two persons (and one of 'em was a misunderstanding), he immediately resorts to that awfully scummy "Don't judge me by my predecessor"

Unvote; Vote: werewolf

Hey, werewolf, I didn't vote you based on your predecessor, how about that?

@moose
I've seen you play decent in one of the Newbie games recently. But a "making it through the day" just isn't gonna cut it. If you really are town here and you wanna help out, then start scumhunting, man. You've already expressed suspicion towards Substrike and AntB (iirc) but you haven't laid a single vote down. What's up with that? Take some stances, make people regret they voted for you and show the rest of the town who you think is scum. Because if you won't you'll be run up again every single day, because no one fears you and you are easy bait. This isn't helping anyone.

I'm doing this only because I truly believe you are nothing but frustrated town here. And this is a one time advice. Take it or leave it.

[Dekes]

*insert facepalm pic of your choice in here*

Unvote; Vote: moose

[Dekes]

Right after my paragraph. Can you fucking believe that?

Unvote; Vote: Werewolf

[Dekes]

EBWOP:
If he's a vig though rather than 3rd party or scum he will become a liability rather sooner than later.

[Dekes]

@boberz
I don't agree with you that we won't learn anything from a Beefster lynch. In fact I believe we learn a lot from Beefer's lynch, probably even more than from a werewolf lynch (though it's hard to tell since there is neither a huge werewolf wagon nor a lot of stances on him). For example, if Beefster flips scum, I'm almost completely convinced Substrike is scum, too.


Put me on the side of being against directing moose towards a kill:
a) getting 9/12 "votes" on one person is just silly, it won't happen on D1
b) I want to judge moose based on the kill he chooses, not us. If he wants to see who everybody believes to be scum he can read the thread and can make his shot based on that
c) scum can work better with that info than town. If there are mafia RBs, docs or similar PRs out there, they can manipulate moose's shot

While I'm at it, I noticed Lateralus has been only addressing the moose isssue for a while now. His vote is on Substrike from way back. He said he's working on a catch up post, so let's see if that brings anything new.

@werewolf
Yes, I was blatantly sheeping boberz there. Your point being?

Boberz defence to me is as lazy as unconvincing. So I ask another question instead:
What do you think of Substrike? He was one of your main suspect early on, but you've dropped him completely since.

Guess, that's it for now.

[Dekes]

EBWOP:
Last boberz should read Beefster.

[Dekes]

Well, christmas deadlines suck. Sorry, only had announced V/LA in my other game.


- Well, if Beefster's telling the truth, there's still a lot of info to work with tomorrow.

- No more should be said about moose's action, whatever it may be.

- Substrike's still scum.

- I like the case against AntB. He's looking worse by the page.

- Have to look into any werewolf/Substrike/AntB connections during the night

Good night

[Dekes]

On a friend's pc.

V/LA until January 2nd (or late on January 1st)

Happy new year, everyone!

[Dekes]

Aw, there goes another one in the column "If a VI is useless, there's still the probability he's useless scum instead of useless town."

Now I don't see how moose can be anything but an SK now. As much as it pains me to agree with pappums (more on that later), but I've never seen a killing role that had "dismembering" as a kill flavor and was town aligned.

Re: Method of Killing- while we shouldn't discount it completely, I don't think we should put a ton of stock into it, either. "Dismembering" could be either town or scum. Heck, look at Dexter. He dismembers people all the time, and he's mostly good.

Lol.

Then you have several aforementioned slip ups and voilá, there's our SK.

Btw, Moose's kill of werewolf was absolutely him trying to appease to town, because he knew he'd be in a pile of shit if he had shot boberz who has a lot of town cred among the players.

It's usually not a good idea to go SK-hunting before scumhunting, because it equally benefits town and scum to get rid of a third party. However, you rarely have such an obvious SK that early in the game. It's apparent that moose can't be trusted and I will be down for a moose lynch if it comes down it. If we lynch him today, we can prevent the loss of one of our potential mislynches (since one additional kill doesn't matter in a 12-player game).

So, moose, mind full claiming now? I have no idea how you were trying to keep this charade up after N2. Sucks about your illness, but that should not and will not have any affect on how I see you this game.

If there is a maf RB- Boberz or substrike are town.

So, if someone got RB'ed please out yourself.

This is just fucking weird. Mind explaining this one, moose? Nice role-fishing though.


On to other things:

@Dekes: When you get back, does your opinion on Substrike stand?

Well, I reread a bit during the night. His tiebreaker vote on Beefster was definitely something I knew I'd look at later on. But sadly, it was a) consistent with his suspicions, so no slip up there and b) now that we have seen both wagons flip it was definitely not a vote to save his partner.

Now, the good news, he's still extremely high on the scummilicious list. His D2 effort is almost non-existant. He avoids every other topic but his continued moose-tunneling from yesterday. And if moose really turns out to be the SK, Substrike would have as much interest in getting rid of him, especially since moose expressed a lot of suspicion towards Substrike yesterday.

Mariyta and Moose scumteam?

Mind sharing a bit of information or reasoning about that, mmh?

Eh, Lateralus and Ant-to-the-Max, stop rereading and join the debate, will ya? Remind me to take a look at those two. Iirc, both are heavily flying under the radar.

Couple of points before this post gets too long (may be a tad late for that):

- On rereading Ant_B, I've gotten more of a stubborn town read than anything outright scummy. Calling on the policy lynch on moose is bad, I agree, but I can understand that he thinks moose can be a liability for us even if he's town.

- Pappum on the other hand is a lynch I can fully support. Similar reasons as Substrike suprisingly. Since replacing in he's focus has been almost solely on moose, it's much worse on D2. He didn't have strong reads on either Beefster or werewolf, but then he said he wouldn't mind seeing either swing. Yet he didn't commit to either wagon. Wow, distancing from both townie wagons, that's new one.


No wagon on either pappums or Substrike? =/

Vote: Substrike

[Dekes]

I'm here for a while.

While you're here, too: What do you think of Substrike?

[Dekes]

Well, that means we can't use this info for a case on moose. Though I'm wondering why making a distinction between the kills at all. If they were unique, I wouldn't mind, but "shooting" and "dismembering" is just too close to wiki/common kill flavor for scum and SK, respectively.

...

Anyhoo, the case on moose is still strong and this:

however that says to me that your are a sort of jack-of-all-trades role

I am jack of all trades. Happy?

made me lol. Looks like you simply took the fakeclaim someone provided for you.

Moose, at least you could show some effort and vote someone you think is scum. You haven't laid a single vote down this game. That's unacceptable...for any alignment.

@pappums
Lol what? You realize that a lot of people were flying under the radar on D1 but you do nothing about it? So you're essentially going with the flow and not looking in other directions in order to form any opinions of other players.

Unvote; Vote: pappums

Love the non bolded FOS on Lateralus. So, now you turning your attention to an absentee? Way to avoid any confrontation here.

But I have to admit you actually do have a point here because Lateralus is frequently posting in all of his other games and at this point he is simply avoiding this game.

@mod:

Can you prod Lateralus?

@boberz
You haven't answered my question: What do you think of Substrike? And as a proposal, can we settle for a pappum's wagon since we both seem to get a lot of bad vibes coming his way?

[Dekes]

10a) Flavor is flavor. Parts is parts. Nothing in the flavor reflects Actual Game Mechanics. You are free to ignore the flavor (except, of course, that you'll hurt my feelings; I expect to spend a good deal of time creating flavor, and I think you should at least read it. However,

it has no bearing on the game

.At all.

I can read. Can you? Then read the rest of my post, yes?

Going throug your Iso hurts...bad. On D2 you've talked about nothing but yourself so far. Are you by any chance voteless?


@pappums
You replaced on the 23rd, deadline was the 28th. That's hardly what I would call "practically at deadline". And you don't even try to change your view on the others players. Instead of asking questions, pressuring people you simply go "I didn't find anything scummy in that ISO" and coast by by hopping on the popular wagon...


Lat's delivered once again nothing but empty promises. His next post better be good. In any case, I'll go through his Iso tonight, emphasis on any relations between him and pappums/Wright and/or Substrike.


Once again, a lot of people are getting lazy and riding the convenient moose wagon. Yes, I do think he's a) useless and b) probably the SK. But that doesn't change the fact that there are more scum out there. So I want everyone to state their top two suspects that aren't moose.

[Dekes]

Look, who came out of the shadows to defend himself?
I don't agree with some of ATTM's points (Sub's vote on Beefster was actually consistent with his prior reads; I believe Sub was more afraid of getting shot instead of boberz because moose said several times yesterday he would shoot either boberz or Sub), but Substrike only appearing to defend himself, speaks volumes. Anything pro-active so far? El zilcho!

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about that one:

If there is a maf RB- Boberz or substrike are town.

So, if someone got RB'ed please out yourself.

Moose, what exactly is up here? If I'm wrong about you and you are a JOAT, then work with me here and I may leave you alone for the rest of the day (though you really need to vote more).

Unvote; Vote: Substrike

Boberz, if you won't go this route here, tell me, when you're ready for that pappums wagon and don't let yourself get distracted from silly town AntB. Same goes for Mariyta.

Next up that Lat ISO...so maybe more from me tonight.

[Dekes]

Mh...wow. His D1 play looks actually really townie.

But the discrepancy to his D2 play is shocking. He's active in his other games so he's avoiding this game. I don't see any real scum motivation to change his play so drastically unless he's coasting by because he thinks the moose lynch is already a done deal today.

Lat, if you're town, please go back to your D1 play. Until then consider yourself on my baddie list.
You can start off with answering the following questions:
What is your stance on moose today? Do you believe his claim?
What are your top two suspects that are not moose?

[Dekes]

@pappums
A lot of people were suspicious of both werewolf and Beefster yesterday, myself included. Why is it scummy for boberz but not for other people?
Same with the lack of activity you mentioned in #570. Why do you attack and vote boberz for that reason but don't mention Substrike, Lateralus and even ATTM at that moment who've done arguably less so far?

Can't help but feel this vote is a combination of OMGUS and trying to buddy up to a townie (yes, AntB is still town) who might have a chance of getting lynched and pap's already preparing giving himself town cred for that scenario.

@boberz
Your case on AntB blows. Foreigner talking here, but if you whole case is based on this supposed mastermind slip find, then all I have to say is that you have to try better.
And honestly, the case of AntB on you is way better than vice versa. Indeed what happened to "pappum's is scum with AntB" that you claimed earlier? Why ask for a case on one of your scum reads?

@AntB
Is pappums' buddying to you (he himself admits to have done so) less scummy than what Mariyta and boberz have been doing, more scummy or equal?

@ATTM
So we each find Substrike scummy, but for different reasons? Sounds good to me.

@moose
All your unnecessary role fishing and whatnot is forgiven if you join this awesome Substrike wagon.

[Dekes]

You are dodging the question of what happened to your pappums' read for quite a while now...

[Dekes]

Who's going to place him at L-1 so he'll claim? Or will he be nice and claim early?

I shall be the hero.

Unvote; Vote: pappums rat

It doesn't matter whoe goes first. Guys, just promise me that we go after Substrike, who's made a disappearing act after realizing his wagon won't fly and still has done jack on D2...at all.
There's a nice distancing going on between Substrike and pappums. They have yet to mention each other.

Pappums, along with your claim, what do you think of Substrike?


And

@ mod

Can you unleash your wrath and prod Substrike and moose who have been absent from this thread for at least three days, yet posting in all of their other games?

[Dekes]

Good.

Your thoughts on the pappums wagon with all it's participants and non-participants?

[Dekes]

Who'd you target last night and why?

[Dekes]

Hm, I've come to the decision that I believe moose's claim. So the question is now if a Doc fits into a Tracker/JOAT/+x(?) combination.

And I don't like that you twisted your #624 post that it looks like people on your wagon resfuse to give/don't have a case on you.

Pedit:
Heh. Ninja'd by Lat. No need to unvote now.

[Dekes]

Unovte; Vote: Substrike

[Dekes]

I can Cop once, RB once and Kill once. (I read kill as shoot day1, whoops)

Claim is consistent.

[Dekes]

And btw, once again, moose? Are you by any chance voteless? Or have you made up a plan to go through a game without voting once?

[Dekes]

I'll have a post up tomorrow, sorry, was busy with university starting.

Why am I not in the least bit surprised?

Seriously, guys. This dude has been hiding ever since the boberz and Mariyta vs. Pappums and AntB clash started. He's been tunneling on the easy VI target for two days straight now. He hasn't commented at all on the pappums wagon and after a horrible Mariyta case and going into defensive mode he's been lurking and stalling content again.

If you help me lynch this scumbag, I'm willing to reconsider my opinion on AntB for you.


Moose, there's a difference between throwing around your vote and not having voted at all midway through D2. You've been saying you're suspicious of Substrike since D1. Prove it.


The doc claim can sort itself out, he's probably dead tomorrow anyway.

[Dekes]

No. But right now after pappums claim we're pretty much split on Substrike and you.

And if it takes a deal to get the support of others for the Substrike lynch, I'm more than willing to do it. To be honest, I haven't looked into your Iso and the case on you for a while, but last I checked you were still town in my book.

[Dekes]

Just do it moose. It'll help us narrow down the pool of suspects, so there's no downside to you outing the innocent.

[Dekes]

Vote: AntB

And Mariyta, you are soooooo wrong....#672 and #679 is where the juicy stuff is at

PEdit:
Why, look at that? Keeping all your options alive, I see?

Fixed tag. ~~NS

[Dekes]

EBWOP:
NS, if you see this here, can you please fix the tags? Thanks.

[Dekes]

I forgot to say this earlier: While it's good to know Mari is now along with moose basically confirmed town, a coin flip between AntB and Mari after yesterday's flip is really odd.
Moose, why did you choose between those two?
And did you see how wonderful votes can be? So vote more, if you have any suspects, please.

Well, with AntB flipping scum that would most likely clear Lateralus. I don't see scum AntB coming out of the gate D3 attacking somebody he had as town/no opinion before after scum got lynched last day. Lat's appearance after getting attacked was so ridiculously fast it can't be more than coincidence.

I'm more interested in the fact that AntB completely dropped boberz after having him as a main suspect yesterday. Part of Ant's case on Lat is a lack of activity but he ignored the fact that boberz hadn't posted at all at that point. Ant even considers attacking ATTM (while not wanting to call him scum o_O) over boberz today. Doesn't make any sense until you take Sub's lynch into account.

Part of why I don't believe in a Lat/AntB and maybe even in Antb/boberz team is that I don't think AntB is capable of or willing to bus. Confirmed by his non-commital interactions with Sub yesterday. He agreed completly on my case against Substrike (#672), yet didn't vote him. What!?
And after Sub's claim, instead of questioning a setup with a tracker, a watcher, a claimed doc and a claimed JOAT, he asked Sub about his lack of activity on D2. Translation: "You can still save you hide with that claim buddy, just come up with a proper excuse for your inactivity!". Btw, the same lack of activity that made AntB hesitate yesterday to hammer/threaten Sub is now used against Lat as a main point in Ant's case against him. Double standards anyone?(#679)

The difference to boberz regarding bussing is that boberz started to attack AntB and Ant only played (had to play?) the passive part in this scenario. But he always tried to tie Mari in there making up a scum team that he wanted to go down together whenever boberz should flip. Too bad, Mari got cleared by moose so he had to go another route and is aiming now for two of the three remaining unconfirmed townies (in this case with boberz´as his partner). After being confident in calling me town yesterday...besides Substrike (lol, for what exactly?)(#567)

So, that leaves us with ATTM. There's not much going on there. He generally seems to fly under the radar, but he was very early on the Substrike wagon. The only thing I have now (without having gone through his ISO, since this post is too long already) is AntB's yet another non-commital stance ("I will attack him later, but refrain from calling him scum now.").


Boberz, can I get a towniest to scummiest list of the remaining players from you?

ATTM. You said, yesterday, if Sub were to flip scum, boberz would most likely be his partner. I haven't checked if you provided evidence for that theory yesterday already, but can you restate your case on that?

And finally,

Unvote

Don't want a silly selfhammer, before I got these answers.

[Dekes]

EBWOP:
first "somebody" should read "his buddy"

[Dekes]

Boberz, can I get a towniest to scummiest list of the remaining players from you?

No. You can have my top suspicion is AntB followed by Ant to the Max.

I still expect an AntB claim.

Well, seconded. Though with the flipped roles so far I think only a mod-confirmed innocent child will save AntB today.

@Mariyta
So, let me get this straight:
You say, bussing today would be detrimental play as a scum team and yet you see the possibility of an AntB/me scum team?
You say, ATTM and Substrike can't be buddies because ATTM was early on Substrike, but you see the possibility of a Substrike/me scum team, although I was having Sub by the balls since D1 and pushed hard for his (the scum watcher no less, likely the bost role they have) lynch D2 when everyone else was ready to ignore his scummy play and where I could've easily pushed an AntB or a boberz lynch instead?

For shame, girl! And I thought I knew you

[Dekes]

I'm attacking players I have next to nothing on to get information which will give me a read. I have my list of people who are town IMO and those are the one's I'm not attacking. I'll copy my notes straight out of TomBoy if the people want it...

What town reads? Initally on D3 you attacked Mari and boberz. After moose's guilty you said you had no idea who to suspect anymore and shortly after switched over to Lateralus and me. You said you wanted to attack ATTM later, apparently to get a read on him either way. So what's left there are moose and Mari. The two persons who are virtually town by claim/results and not by read only.
So, yeah, what town "reads" of yours are there exactly?

I don't do set-up speculation, it can throw people too easily.

Mh, the sound of backtracking scum. Love it. There's nothing wrong with setup speculation, especially in this scenario: Late in a Mini Normal with already flipped/claimed PRs because it is possible to somewhat guess the setup. Like I said, watcher, tracker, doc and JOAT is just impossible in a Mini Normal.


Oh, Mari, don't you go all Fate on me now. He did the same thing in Big Game where he said, he didn't want to be fooled twice by me and made that as an argument for declaring me as scum instead of ignoring the fact that he had never completed a game with me being town and accepting that my decent pro-town could actually mean that I'm town that game.


And what I meant to ask Lateralus:
You never actually mentioned in your dispute with AntB whether you find him scummy or not. Do you think his case on you is made by scum or not? If not, who are your suspects?

[Dekes]

I'm withholding my vote until ATTM, Lat and moose have talked. But other than that, if I don't have up follow-up questions and you guys don't have any questions, I wouldn't mind this being a quick and dirty day.

[Dekes]

Did that really happen? Bwahahahah, oh the hilarity.

So, here's a rundown of boberz' and AntB's relationship:

- They almost completety each other on D1. Except for this grand highlight.

- On D2 boberz rather quickly attacks and votes AntB for using the phrase "performing a scumhunt". Mighty strong case.

- AntB retaliates taacking and voting boberz while tying Mari into the mix.

- They're going at each other for almost all of D2, completely ignoring Substrike in the process (always remember, what role Substrike flipped).

- D3 begins and AntB is still on the Mari/boberz team. However, after voting boberz yesterday he decided to vote Mari today (because after one of his buddies flipped he's afraid to keep pushing on his other buddy before the mislynch goes through). And if this doesn't imply an attack on boberz, which he later tried to deny, I'm playing the wrong game here.

Now it gets really interesting:
- moose clears Mari

- AntB quickly drops suspicion on Mari AND boberz and instead goes after Lateralus, me and ATTM as a rather distant third.

- boberz keeps on pushing on AntB, keeps pushing for a lynch and a claim.

- AntB releases a list of his reads and gives boberz a clear townread after going after him for all of D2, creating cases and whatnot, based solely on the ridiculous hammer by boberz that is everything but a clear town hammer if you consider boberz' interactions with Substrike up until the hammer (see ATTM's post on the last page for evidence).

- Biggest Lol comes last, of course: Boberz suddenly needs to rethink the AntB case because it's "too easy". If this isn't scum knowing his partner screwed up with that sudden 180 for no apparent reason and now is trying to stop the AntB lynch because boberz knows he's fucked once AntB flips scum, then I'm definitely playing the wrong game here.

Vote: AntB

This thing is going down.

@Mari
Sorry, I don't see any reason for a massclaim today other than for the sake of doing something.
- It's not LyLo.
- Looking at the flips/claims so far, I doubt there's any PR left
- If there is against all odds another PR, we are just giving scum a free PR kill tonight

And now be a honey and get your vote back on AntB. I just don't let the argument "it can't be that easy" count here. He played a sloppy scum game, he got caught bad and I don't see why bad scum should be granted a delay.

@mod
Can you prod Lateralus?

I'll give you that, AntB. Lateralus may just be town, but he's definitely a lazy lurking bum.

[Dekes]

For the thick people out there who cannot read. I am still voting AntB I am still wanting to lynch him.

So it's only passive distancing from the lynch and not outright trying to avert the lynch? Check.

I hammered my 'scumbuddy' with no reasoning (lol at this one)

If people don't see what's scummy about that given your interactions with Substrike up until that hammer they're either dumb or scum...oh wait

Your AntB interactions are only a bonus. They can be applied tomorrow after AntB got lynched.

[Dekes]

No, it is an analysis of the other people on the wagon Dekes. You better take those scumtinted glasses off before you ruin the game here.

Dekes you are so wrong it is unbelievable. What about my interactions were scummy. Note this is not asking what was odd or out of place, it is scummy. And why are they scummy.

Note: This is only for the other people since I don't need to convince you that you're scum.

The only times you mentioned Substrike on D2 were of passive nature where you openly admitted not to look into Substrike that day although people asked you to give your stance on Substrike because people obviously were starting to note Substrike's scummy behaviour. You then go on - when the Substrike was not avoidable but probable - to drop the hammer without any discussion, thus avoiding any dialogue with Substrike that could give you away and trying to gain towncred by hammering scum (not really, but apparently AntB deemed this as a a solid enough reason to siwtch your read from definitely scum to definitely town...lol again@this, btw).
This is scummy. Not odd or out of place, but simply scummy. If you had given some sort of statement about Sub prior to your hammer or something along the lines of "no way this is the setup of this game" I may have thought twice about this, but not this way.

[Dekes]

EBWOP:
"the Substrike lynch was not unavoidable"

Dyslexia ftl.

[Dekes]

Oh yeah, another thing I meant to ask:

lol at my notes all you want lead-head, you missed a question of mine.

@AttM
Where exactly do you work? you seem to work a lot even though you had finals not long back...

AntB, did this question have any purposes for this game since you felt the need to ask it twice?

[Dekes]

And Dekes, do not call me honey. Darling, dear, sweetie, and schmoopsy poo are all still acceptable, though.

Gotcha. Any particular reason why schmoopsy poo over honey?
And did you find anything interesting so far during your re-read? It's getting a bit stale here with Lateralus, moose and ATTM only popping in once in a while.

So let's dance a little, AntB, why not?
You are the only one who believes boberz' hammer was made-by-town-only. This is especially awkward considering how adamant you were on boberz being scum yesterday. You might wanna clear this up by explaining why you don't believe scum boberz would've hammered without any discussion in that scenario.

Also, a lot of your words doesn't match up with your actions.
- Your say you're toying with self-hammering, yet you don't want the day to end this early because not enough reads and cases have been build.
- You call me repeatedly scum without a case behind it. Only thing I could find is in your notes that I was too determined to lynch Substrike which is simply ridiculous. You were close to getting lynched yesterday. All WIFOM aside, why wouldn't I lynch you and go into LyLo today without having to bus anyone? Doesn't make any sense at all.
- You first say you want to attack ATTM to get a better read on him, yet in your next post you say you're leaning scum on him without any reasoning behind it. What's worse is that you never followed up on those attacks on ATTM that you promised (unless asking him where he works and calling him lead-head helps you getting a read on him, lol ).

So, in conclusion, while you say people should use the remaining time of the day to get reads and build cases, all you do is baseless accusing, all the while never leaving out an opportunity to say that you're town. It should be YOU, who most likely is not seeing the end of the day alive, who should be giving out as much info and reads with reasoning and evidence if you're really town.
Only telling people what should be done now is just you appearing to be active and pro-town while we are second guessing ourselves. But you are not wriggling yourself out of your lynch today.


@moose
Don't act like I didn't see you earlier in this topic.
You are confirmed town but that doesn't mean you can't help us win this thing. You said you wanted AntB lynched today so either act accordingly or say why you think he's scum and/or who else could be.


@boberz
Fearing a quickhammer by AntB but not acting to prevent it is noted.

[Dekes]

If I was scum I would have self-hammered a long time ago, why risk outing scumbuddies when I'm past the point of no return?

Holy WIFOM.
How about you achieved your goal in town second guessing the hell out of themselves (more and more people considering a boberz' lynch over your lynch, look below for details).

I do not analyse everyone in game. I will not start today at the will of some randoms.

I will add content, probably tomorrow as I have been in hospital and just woken up at home.

I did act against AntB I didnt unvote, because AntB quickhammering should have proved his scummines. I was not against a quick selfhammer, I am against a quick town selfhammer.

The "randoms" you call are the people who are playing this game with you and who'd like you to share your opinion on other players to get a better read on you. Any refusal of sharing your reads and opinions is scummy. Period.

The last sentence is bogus. If AntB self-hammers, we'll know his alignment soon enough and that doesn't prove his scumminess or non-scumminess in the slightest. The only reason for keeping the day alive was to keep gathering information and the fact that you left the risk of self-hammering alive by not unvoting is that you were just pretending to be interested in keeping the day alive. Scummy.

Dekes, in #562, you call AntB town. What changed your mind?

In fact, I called him town on several occasions. Because that's what my read was until D3. I knew this was his first Normal Game so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. He took a lot of independent stances and he wasn't afraid of attacking rather baselessly, usually typical newbie town tells.
But his interactions during and prior to the Substrike hammer, his 180s of his reads on D3 and his "woe is me, I'm townie" spiel while being in lynch vicinity is just too fucking obvious to overlook.

If you want me to choose between AntB and boberz? There's something incredibely akward in how boberz is approaching this imminent AntB lynch ("might be too easy, yet I'm keeping my vote on him"). And the discrepancy between how he handled the Substrike wagon yesterday and the AntB wagon today gives me the feeling there's informed minority at work here. Which would point a lot to boberz scum and maybe even AntB town (fuck you, AntB, for already second guessing myself). Yet I still have the stronger belief in "if AntB is scum, then boberz is scum" than "if boberz is scum, then AntB is scum". So I'm still up for an AntB lynch unless everybody else is up for a boberz lynch first.

On a sidenote, Mari, I still think you're suffering from the same fate that Fate (oh no, he didn't) did in Biggest Game. You've only completed a game with me where I was scum. And because I played decent there and fooled some of you there for a while, you seem to feel like you don't want to rule me out because you don't want to get fooled again instead of just looking without any bias at what I've done so far like getting Substrike lynched when there was absolutely no need to if I was scum. And btw, you give Lat credit for riding Substrike hard on D1 while there was little to no chance of Substrike getting lynched with the moose/Beefster/werewolf-wagons going on when he was barely on him on D2. That doesn't add up, sweetie.

/offtopic
a) I'm already looking forward to X-Files mafia and if you're not in it, you should totally join
b) If anyone is interested in being my back-up mod for my Mini Normal Game (in return I'd offer being back-up mod as well, of course), shoot me a pm.

[Dekes]

Firstly bollocks.
Secondly why didnt you say this when I was asked this earlier, and refused?
Thirdly who taught you mafia, they are crap (unless you just ignored them which is more probable)

I didn't mention it earlier because my last post was long enough as it was. You keep refusing to give out your reads while demanding from players on the AntB wagon to give a detailed read on AntB (though I've been really clear with my reasons on why AntB is scum and Mari has given their reasons as well).

I don't know what the ad hom was for but I guess to each their own. Even if you don't believe it, but mafia can and should be a game of cooperation as well.

I was at no point trying to stall the day, it is all you other buggers who are donig that. I just wanted a quick explanation from all the AntB voters as to why they were on him. They gradually unvoted him,

which was telling I think.

What do you even want to say with this? How was it telling? Does that make AntB more likely town (then why do you keep your vote on him and want him lynched?)? Does that make the people who unvoted him more likely scum (though the only persons who unvoted were Mari who's still basically confirmed town and me who voted him again once he was back at L-3. And it doesn't match with your scum team pick of AntB/ATTM). That looks like just an empty phrase you threw in there that pretends to be meaningful.

@Mari
The theory of "if AntB is scum, boberz is most likely his partner" still stands. There is a pretty darn good case for boberz being scum and there's the added bonus of getting rid of his annoying play style. I will support a boberz lynch if the majority is up for it. But I'm still surer about AntB being scum.

Also I do want to wait for the moose replacement before night for obvious reasons.

/offtopic
Sorry, too late, I already asked the mod for dibs on Krycek. And with that, we better end this discussion here

[Dekes]

EBWOP:

There are actually a couple of VC's incorrect. I'd ask NS to fix that but it seems he's busy enough with this game already as it is.

Votecounts have been fixed. Please accept my apologies. ~~NS

[Dekes]

He did claim already. VT, worded it all fancy.

[Dekes]

*sigh* I'd rather get rid of the sloppy obvious scum first instead of the probably-scum-too-but-primaliry-a-dick person. Anyone else up for that boberz lynch?

Btw, if anyone's still wondering whether ATTM is town or not, should take a look at his latest post.

[Dekes]

Seconded. The game has stalled (as predicted with the delay of AntB's lynch) and a new perspective would be much appreciated.

To save all of us time maybe look at recent events first. I think, the opinions and the suspects of the rest of the people are pretty much dead set at the moment.

[Dekes]

Why'd you quote me on that one?

Anyway, to clear up any suspicions towards ATTM, this is not a scumpost. Ever.

[Dekes]

Because unlike you he wanted a townie with an action left to actually have time before the lynch/during the night to use that action with the knowledge of what's been going on in this thread and not risk a rushed last minute replacement to make a decision based on a skimread.

[Dekes]

Posting from phone. Just a heads up, won't be able to post properly for another ~24 hours.

[Dekes]

Ready to end this day, too. Everyone's shown their reads and we can worry about AntB's partner tomorrow.

Xtoxm, while presenting a new perspective and is thank god not a waste of a slot like his predecessor, hasn't brought anything new to the table. His case on ATTM is rather unbased. He's giving some vague statements ("he's more likely mafia", "ATTM/AntB is the only pairing that makes sense") without backing any of those up with quotes, links, etc. And I don't know why he's getting flak for his willingness to hammer when he pretty clearly stated earlier today that AntB was high up in his suspect list, even if boberz was higher.

[Dekes]

Dekes needs to turn up.

And here I am.

Alright, first of all, props to xtoxm for being the most useful PR by far. I believe a successful block for several reasons.

- While a scum nokill is worth considering, it's unlikely in this situation. MyLo makes it ten times harder to aim for a scum quicklynch than LyLo.

- Now after AntB's lynch (btw, remind me to tell him postgame to stick to newbie games for a while...he was so scummy his lynch was inevitable) it's possible boberz and ATTM (depending on who AH's partner is), fearing they probably would get blocked, left the kill to AH.

- If I read one of xtoxm post right, he hinted at blocking AH yesterday already.

@AH
You said you got mislynched due to a scum no kill before. Can you link the game?

@Mari
Please, don't go all crazy now with victory at hand. Take a breather and look at this game again. There was nothing wrong with xtoxm's plan if he was aiming to catch AH's partner and/or confirm his successful block. And being a sheep in MyLo is a bad, bad strategy.

@xtoxm
The same advice as I gave Mari. Take a breather. The majority is behind your plan and Mari obviously just had a rough day yesterday. But even if you can't be convinced to stay, can you get out the reasoning behind AH's block before you leave?

I'd rather lynch AH over a No Lynch today. My AH/Lat town read went out of the window as soon as AntB flipped anyway. A lot of it based on the assumption AntB was scum and attacked Lat for no reason at the start of yesterday. If you take that away then the Lat slot wasn't all too different from Substrike's: Coming out to defend himself while continuously pushing for mislynches. And iirc Lat was only after Substrike on D2 when Sub's lynch was pretty much set. Gotta have to look at AH's Iso again but for now:

Vote: Antihero

[Dekes]

Mari, don't take this game too personally. The same thing happened in LOTR, remember? Just relax, chuckle at boberz' posts because he apparently enjoys playing the dick in mafia.

Back to game related things: What do you think happened last night, Mari? You switched from boberz and me and a nokill to boberz and AH within one post.

@Boberz
What exactly do you think the no lynch will accomplish but giving scum more influence on the lynch tomorrow? Do you doubt xtoxm's claim? I don't see anyone dying that would weaken/strengthen the argument about whether last night was a no kill or a successful roleblock on AH.

[Dekes]

Do you honestly think AH will be dead tomorrow if we no lynch?

So it essentially comes down to whether you believe xtoxm or not. And today we have the bonus of having more control over the lynch than tomorrow if we no lynch.

[Dekes]

How does that change anything? You did not address the reasons I gave for a nolynch.

Should we do it or not. If not address my reasons for doing it.

You really are AH's partner, aren't you?

I did say that I want to lynch AH over a no lynch and I explained why it's better in several posts now.
You gave one measely reason and that is that a no lynch would narrow down our suspect pool. But that doesn't change the fact that we have to deal with wether AH scum is or not tomorrow as well. If we lynch him today, he flips scum and we can still no lynch tomorrow.

You on the other hand failed to address my points. Do you believe xtoxm? And if you do and you think AH is scum why is a no lynch still better than AH's lynch? The only thing that will change is that one of our pretty much confirmed persons will die and AH will still be around.

@Mari
I'm not sure if I understand the question correctly? You want me to say who I think will die tonight? If so, see above.


And if anyone wants further proof of AH being scum. He hasn't posted in here since his weak defence "Screwed again by a scum no-kill" (and if you're reading this, AH, I still want the link of that other game where this supposedly has happened to you before), yet he has frequently posted in all of his other games. I think Mari hit the nail on the head saying AH has basically given up already.

[Dekes]

Vote: boberz

I'll take it. Seriously, guys, that was way too quick.

[Dekes]

I think we all can learn something from this game ^^

Mari:
- I really like you, I do. But you're taking this game way too personally way too often. Yes, boberz was being a dick for the better part of the game but because he deserved the loss doesn't mean that all of the town deserved it. And going into MyLo so biased when you said the days before that you could see me as scum and ballsy enough to bus my buddies out of the game just isn't the right way.
boberz:
- I feared you even more than Mari in MyLo because I knew you wouldn't just easily go after ATTM. However, I really doubtthat kind of attitude will help you in this game. If you see something you heavily disagree with that's no reason to become overly arrogant and make fun of others. That won't make them more likely to follow you or listen to you and it almost always helps scum. And above all, it's simply a dick move.
ATTM:
- you really played considering this was your first (second?) game. Only problem was how you handled MyLo. Putting someone at L-1 that quickly without any discussion and without everyone having reported in is just fatal. You may have fallen for the "boberz isn't scum and even if not he deserves the loss" emotional trap, too. But that isn't fair to the rest of the town.
AntB:
- sorry, but since you pinned the scum team down you had to go quickly on D3;). I think your only problem is that you have to be more aggressive and make your suspects regret for going after you. And your 180 on boberz after his hammer was really weak. Any scum can and probably will hammer his doomed partner to gain town cred.
The rest of the town I didn't play long enough with to really feel comfortable to comment on.

Can't complain about my partners. I knew right from the start I would try to act differently this game and bus more than I ususally do. Unfortunately Sub did coast a lot and was the scummiest of us which made him my prime target. But Lat is right, especially the Sub bussing based on not a whole lot looks in hindsight like inside knowledge/bussing.
Lat was so town he drew the doc protect N1. That should be indicative enough of how well he played his role. Too bad, RL kicked in but RL is always priority #1. Period.
AH did a good job and immediately jumped up on everyone's town list. If it weren't for that damned coin I flipped that made AH make the kill on N3 this game would've ended sooner, I'm sure of that
@QT
I have no problem with posting it. I'm sure AH and Sub won't mind it either.

I know this may look a bit like a smartass here, but I just wanted to comment on how I saw the game which I enjoyed for the most of it.

A special word of praise for Nobody Special. Absolutely flawless modding. Not a single complaint from me here.
By the way, was there a dead topic, NS?