Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[Alduskkel]

Vote Count

don_johnson (3) - Gonzoooo, smashbro_of_the_SSS, implosion
smashbro_of_the_SSS (2) - ThAdmiral, vollkan
implosion (1) - don_johnson

Not Voting (3) - Purple Orange, mallowgeno, lewarcher82

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 13th, PST.

[Gonzoooo]

@ThAdmiral - I'd like something a bit more substantial from you about dj than a comment on a single point. Particularly since I assume you've played with him before. DJ is an accomplished player that isn't likely to be caught out by standard scumtells, but I really feel like his play feels off this game. He's a raging bull as town and I would expect him to be much more pissed at me for starting the wagon on him...but he's not. He's trying to rationally talk his way out of the wagon and swing momentum back to smash. Do you feel this type of behavior is more likely to come from DJtown or DJscum? I understand that this is all kind of vague, but it is what it is.

I'm fairly convinced at this point that we have a 1v1 situation in the competing wagons, given the deadlock we seem to be at for the moment. This is ultimately quite good for the town because it is going to be very telling after the lynch. However, we also need to lynch correctly today, so I want everyone to think long and hard about DJ vs. Smash and pick a side. Fortunately, I think the scum have passed the point of no return and will be revealed regardless of which side they choose to fall down on.

In your next post, everyone should give a brief paragraph as to which side they are taking in this argument and why. I personally will be staying with the DJ lynch because his play feels very off to me. He is not getting in on the action, but rather is prodding from the sidelines all game. I wrote some of this off due to the holiday weekend, but that only gives you so much cred. He started the game ferocious and then became a meek little kitten that is trying to be excessively logical when pushed. This isn't all that townish coming from DJ in my opinion. Additionally, I feel the smash is kind of a soft target and someone I would definitely go after as scum. I don't like how DJ tried to form a voting bloc early in the day and power that lynch through, given how unforgiving this setup is of mislynches. I believe it was a power play from him because he overestimated his town standing. A quick mislynch today and the game would have been all but wrapped up for the scum tonight.

--preview edit--

Taking note of lew's points about the smash wagon without hammer. I'm not as sure as you, you really think it wouldn't have looked scummy to hammer someone well before deadline? Also, weren't we waiting on the mallow replacement at that point?

You should also check your town read on ThAdmiral. I am much less certain about him than most people seem to be. I also do not believe everyone from {DJ, ThAdmiral, volkan} is town. I do however believe that Purple Orange and lewarcher are town. This is unfortunate because they are not voting and my much weaker reads are split between the two wagons, giving me uncertainty on both of them.

[lewarcher82]

This is a good point you make about mallow. I answer you.

I do not think it would have been scummy to hammer before the deadline.

I do think it would have been scummy to hammer before mallow got replaced.

Also: you say that you think that the competing situation is going to result in a lynch that will be very telling for town. Does it mean you are absolutely convinced that DJ and Smash could not be scumbuddies who are performing a mutual bus?

[Purple Orange]

Ugh, finished, sorta.
* Too little content from Mallow for me to be comfortable calling for a D2 lynch on the guy. He active-lurked like hell on D1, I don't like his interaction with DJ, and his move to the werewolf wagon definitely looks opportunistic (high point IMO of Smash's case). But it's a thin foundation on which to build a D2 lynch, when everyone else is exhibiting a ridiculous amount of content and connections (however befuddling), and will provide us with more to go off of post-flip. I really don't like having to removing him from consideration due to dearth of content, though, so for about the 50th time, we need a replacement ASAP.

(I know you're trying, mod. :(Are you allowed to repost your advertisement in the thread?).

* Did the body snatchers get to DJ overnight? I swear, pretty much every frikkin post of his D1 I have marked as "lol, town" and every one D2 as "wut?? scum." He was pretty laid back the first day, but jumped in with zingy and original points every now and then, considered a vareity of cases, and wasn't outright asking other people to do all his work for him. Also didn't engage in lengthy useless-at-best conversations about the mertis of a vigilante killing a dead townie.

* Thad and lew are not BOTH scum, unless there is a beautifully exquisite bus involved.

* Thad is hard to read. Lew's giving off conflicting reads.

* Smash cases on mallow and DJ were both weak. A high point or two to both, but when you're straw-clutching and nit-picking at every single post, you're bound to hit something.

* DJ case on implosion is weak. Not entirely comfortable with implosion, but the scummiest thing I've seen from him is misrepresentation of wolf and me as the basis of his votes.

@ DJ:

Not making a case yourself + getting others to vote = scum.

false.

What? How so?

@Thad:

I wonder why thad addressed his criticism to me alone (#345).

ThAd 345: referral to the first lew possible rolefishing without mentioning the last 10 highly relevant posts... wut?

^Thirded, actually. Why only mention lew? (And, yeah, I realize I followed you on this, and failed to officially include DJ when I said "rolefishing." My bad, there).

And why the WIFOM about the extension? Didn't peg you as someone who'd do that.

Finally, why the werewolf vote in #193? Not that I can't deduce one or more reasons from previous posts, but I'd like to hear your specific reason(s).

@ a dead guy and everyone

Holy crap, lew is town as hell here.

regarding the lynch: IF THERE IS A REAL COP; HE MUST NOT CC. I suggest we lynch werewolf and hope zhero is not genuine. If zhero will not die, we will analyse his report tomorrow and decide what to do. If he dies, we will analyse the wagon.

(Lew's 236 for reference).

OR he's scum and knows the roleclaim is darn likely genuine, and is cleverly jumping in to get townpoints from the situation. Nulltell. Get your townreads on lew from elsewhere plz guys, if you get them at all.

Edit while posting: LOLOLOL, Lew goes and says this as well. ROFL.

On the flip side, genuine major tonwpoint Gonzoooo, for immediately trying to shut down the vig discussion. Unless I'm really blind and missing some mafia-motivated reason for doing this.

Concerning Smash...

.
226 is pretty bad. But I do see how you could have been saying, "I agree with the reasons, but I think the wagon has moved suspiciously fast just the same," and just communicated it really badly. (Ala Zhero's FAIL communication of his thinking in the "smell a bus" post). I'm willing to consider your responses to the questions about 226 as genuine clarification, not rationalization. Other people gotta make their own calls. I think 226 has been pushed about as far as it can be pushed, though.

#235 hasn't, however.

as for the claim, I really don't know what to believe. There isn't much of a way to prove his claim, since it's only Day 1 on a day start game, and as sapo said, it is a bit tricky to deal with a power role claim near deadline. Might be that he's scum trying to pull off another day living. Let him live today, and if he's telling the truth, he'll be dead by morning. Let him live and he's fake claiming, we'll see him back here tomorrow, with some explaining to do. if we lynch him, he may be scum or a power role, so we're basically gambling. Almost want to say let him live, see what happens during the night, so we can go back and analyze his play.

I'd lynch werewolf or Zhero today. I'm beginning to think that Zhero is Mafia Jailkeeper trying to pull off living at least one night. werewolf has acted scummy and also jumped on the Zhero wagon quickly. Either one is probably scum, and so I could go for either. I'll keep my vote on werewolf at the moment, but if nothing much changes by Friday, 11:59, I'll switch over to Zhero.

What the heck? Why the waffling? OF COURSE YOU DON'T LYNCH THE CLAIMED POWER ROLE. If there's anyone that jumped on the wagon quickly and stayed on it, hoping to lynch the power role (#266), it's freaking YOU. Everyone else (besides wolf and sapo -- both town and both dead) jumped ship right after the claim at the first opportunity. You're the only one who was actually still apparently considering a lynch. Scumpoint you.

(Sarcasm earlier in #235, though -- LOL, and justified.)

besides, I want to know why smash thinks Zhero is JK and not a simple nilla - always assuming he is scum.

Role Cop and Vigilante are the two town power roles, and so if he is scum, he could be claiming to drag a power down with him, or he could be trying to preserve some of the mafia's power. Mafia have a jailkeeper as their power, so it seemed to make sense that he might be trying to help his team for one more night.

Any mafia with brains would try to drag a power role down with them, jailkeeper or no. You make no sense here.

-------
EDIT: Think Gonzoooo has a point that we're probably 1:1, and either Smash or DJ is scum. Lulz. Or both. In which case it's probably good the townie guys are left to make the call.

I have no call on this right now. I'm leaning DJ, sort of maybe, because I think Gonz is town, because of DJ's night/day change (I've seen personality swaps in myself when scum), and because the heaping on top of Smash for 226 reminds me of Zhero and wolf, rightly or wrongly.

[Gonzoooo]

Also: you say that you think that the competing situation is going to result in a lynch that will be very telling for town. Does it mean you are absolutely convinced that DJ and Smash could not be scumbuddies who are performing a mutual bus?

Well, it's not impossible that they are scumbuddies. However, I don't think scum have a lot of incentive to bus today considering that reads are so muddled at this point. They couldn't have had a better possible D1 with both of the leading wagons being on town and they were able to sit back doing nothing. Personally, if I was scum I would be looking at one of the soft targets today and working my ass off to get them lynched. You then put the town in a terrible lylo position tomorrow or possibly even win the game overnight if the vig shoots and misses. It would only take one wrong vote in lylo for the scum to pile on quickly. Alternatively, they could hard buss someone today for some town cred and then have to go through two more day phases. That or they open a chance for the vig to take a free shot at them if their bus is transparent. Idk, I can see the merit of trying to win town cred, but I think the chances of winning the game are good enough for the scum right now that they do not need to take that route.

tl;dr

I'm not 100% certain that is not the case, but I don't think it's likely.

[lewarcher82]

yes, this is a reasonable consequence of the fact that, as I said, scum has now the upper edge. We can probably ignore the possibility that DJ and smash are mutually bussing, also because if that were the case, both lynches would be fine.

[ThAdmiral]

Lot of good content overnight. Am on my phone now but will post when I get home.

[lewarcher82]

I am now doing a re-read of implo's and thad's activity, to try see if I find anything interesting to answer gonzooo's and purple's last posts. However, regarding Thad, his playestyle struck me as protown on day 1. The he became less aggressive. I will post my impressions tomorrow. However, in order to complete my analysis, I will need to ask Thad a question:

what are your feelings about the voting block, and what were your feelings when it was first proposed?

@gonzooo: I will cast my vote as soon as I am done thinking. I understand you'd prefere to have votes to analyse, but I am not ready. It won't take long, I promise.

[Gonzoooo]

Actually, I don't think you have to vote immediately. I would settle for everyone simply saying who they would prefer to lynch out of smash and dj.

[don_johnson]

i think its a relevant point that neither implo or smash has made a decent point in regards to their votes on me. there is no real analysis in their posts. i will be shredding implo this evening.

gonzo: one of your earlier posts gave me the impression that you were leaning towards me because i was being more "logical" in this game than when we had previously played. can you flesh that out for me? i am doing my best to avoid being lynched today. and it doesn't make sense to give someone scum points if they are playing more "logical" than in a game when they were scum, no?

i mean, as it stands, the two most oppurtunistic votes made today(smash and implo on dj) seem to be drawing very little scrutiny. in the meantime, i am being scrutinized for attempting to create a voting block of players i had town reads on at the time. i think the resulting discussion has been helpful and i believe we have created alot of connections today, and i thinkn if we lynch right we could blow this open.

if its between me and smash, then my vote obviously goes to smash, but i would really like implo to be looked at here and my post later will explain why, but it seems noone even addressed my earlier point about his soft play on day 1. he gave lew a pass for excessive smilies but condemned consig for joking around and posting off-topic. now, on day 2, we have lew abandoning the smash wagon, and both smash and implo dropping reactionary votes on me. i don't know, it would be bold to call the whole scum team here, and i actually think that smash might be the town among them, but i certainly think the three of them should be the ones under the microscope today. the mallow slot, aside, those three have been making the "oddest" and "oppurtunistic" moves so far. i may have tried to start a voting block, but i was the first one on the wagon. and have since moved to a new suspect.

anyhoo, this:

Not making a case yourself + getting others to vote = scum.

is inherently false. just look at my sig. i will be the first person to tell you that i have an unreliable meta(though some of you seem to think it will help), so i will appeal to my sig to disprove the above theorem. the theorem itself states that "not making a case yourself" plus "getting others to vote" equals scum. do we need to define "equals". it implies that a player who does not make a case, but tries to get others to vote

is always

scum. look at guys like empking, andrew94, drmyshotty, etc. they do it all the time, and they are not

always

scum. if you go by my record, you could read my games and find that i have more likely than not committed the above offense(left side of the equation) at least once in all of my games. and yet i have only been scum in less than half. not only is the above equation illogical, it isn't even remotely reliable. there was no evidence provided to support it(much like the rest of smash and implo's cases). in any case, implo comes later.

[implosion]

i think its a relevant point that neither implo or smash has made a decent point in regards to their votes on me. there is no real analysis in their posts. i will be shredding implo this evening.

I'm so excited, especially since you've been talking about it so much in your last 10 or so posts and asking for others' opinions without saying one thing about it yourself.

@ThAd

: not that this should need asking but... why the WIFOM? Actually speaking of WIFOM...

If I had been scum, I would have popped on every so often and made small posts to push the dj case further, hoping for a quick lynch and the day to be over.

Why the WIFOM here?

ThAd keeps looking more odd to me... I need his explanation for the WIFOM. Smash also continues scurrilous activity... I need his explanation too. d_j just keeps getting scummier. To answer Gonzoooo, and as it should be clear, my vote is on d_j. These three are my top scumreads at this point, but it's unlikely (for reasons that have been stated, it would be a very unlikely bus) that both d_j and Smash are scum. Not sure who I'd put after these three.

[don_johnson]

Another "dj is scum" with no reason why.

[implosion]

Another post that procrastinates.

Please read the first half of that post.

you've been talking about it so much in your last 10 or so posts and asking for others' opinions without saying one thing about it yourself.

[don_johnson]

procrastination? interesting.

i was trying to encourage independent thought, and i had an extremely busy schedule through the weekend. but in any case. nice parroting.

-----------------

Was writing this on and off and/or multitasking for the past couple hours.

Summary of everything since my last post:

dj 311: calling someone lazy then saying you don't feel the need to do much. INTERESTING. Also shenanigans about the whole "move on" thing, which is still really weird.

why is "move on" weird? calling shenanigans doesn't cut it. its a semantics argument. null tell at best.

dj 317: o_o.

317 is a perfectly ok explanation. if you have an issue with it. speak. emoticons are a waste of space without a post to attach them to.

Smash 319: nothing really new. Not a terrible post, but it does contain more mallow tunneling.

way to glaze over one of smash's longer posts. and so continues the book report...

vollkan 324: nothing particular of note. Explaining his system, questioning/responding to those with high scores.
Purple 327: another fairly normal post, and a good example of Purple's overall protownness with legitimate points.

purple asks me to confirm my own meta stating that "its too much work" to do it themself. how is that prot-town? they might as well have said "hey, are you scum? i could work at it, but i'd rather not..." not exactly protown from my pov. his follow up of generic questions doesn't cut it either. my move to zhero was well documented. i don't find PO's post "scummy" per se, but i find it interesting that you pass it off as town when it really is just a bunch of questions from a lazy player who could have easily done a little research instead of asking the questions. but whatever. this is a very nice book report you have going.

don/lew 334-344ish: Gonzoooo 337 sums it up nicely in one sentence. This strange conversation is counterproductive if anything, it'll just help the scum find the vig. Unlikely that they're both scum, but 1 out of don/lew is likely for rolefishing. lew also did rolefish at the beginning of the day, but I can see it as accidental. This conversation on the other hand went on for

way

too long. don for the more likely scum, because of (and someone said this already) his continuation of the conversation in 342 after lew tried to curtail it in 340. The whole back and forth was idiotic and shouldn't have happened in the first place.

ok. so one out of the two of us are rolefishing, but dj gets the scum points why? writing 3432 off as a "continuation" of the conversation is poor form. 342 is a very well thought out point that i bring up. it is taking into account the interactions of a few players and trying to see if their explanations and posts add up.

please explain how post 342 is in any way anti-town and/or rolefishing? also, please explain why you accuse both me and lew of a conversation which

could be construed

as rolefishing and yet condemn me while giving lew a pass not only on the conversation in question(which he started), but also for this alleged rolefish you accuse him of earlier in the day. you see, you seem to be doing what smash is doing. picking me over other players when the scum points aren't adding up. your case is forced and lacks any pertinent analysis.

Smash 346: this post is pretty legit. Good arguments, etc. 346 also contains a don case, which is good, since don has been getting scummier and scummier.

this post was refuted. which points of smash's do you think are legit?

vollkan 348: another unremarkable post, especially for its size. vollkan really stopped analysis for the most part after his reread, but I think that's a personality tell, though I'd prefer an opinion with meta experience of him. Also relevant in the context of Gonzoooo 349.

in other words, "i'm not going to mess with volkan."

lew 351: specifically the first thing he says. It's good that he's trying to cut off the conversation, specifically because I think he's doing it more in a way to avoid the conversation than to avoid the question.

lew started the conversation. now he gets town points for ending it?

On the other hand:
Purple 352: a blatant accusation of rolefishing directed at lewarcher (at least that's the most notable thing IMO). Something like this needed to come from someone at some point. I really think one of lew/dj is likely scum, because I doubt a conversation like what transpired would happen between 2 mafia, but it just seems like pointless rolefishing on one of their parts and a need to continue the conversation for the other. Not much else of lew makes me suspicious, so I'm inclined to look at don for scum.

at this point you are ignoring the possibility that both lew and i are town. again "don is scum", but no reason as to why. lew was saying "vig has no brains." dj was saying "vig shot was legit". which of those two statements do you think has more potential to draw out a vigilante?

dj 354: essentially, he's saying he has no meta. Hrm.

prove me wrong. i've never been lynched correctly on a meta case. also, all players inquiring as to my meta are asking

me

the questions. noone bothered to look for themselves. thats not my fault and its not my responsibility to "create" a meta.

dj 359: honestly, not much notable here. He refutes Smash's case.

I still think don is scummy however

, mostly because of what I already brought up in my last posts and

also because of the possible rolefishing incident

.

359? what happened to 357? oh yeah, it wouldn't fit into your case...

please refer to the question above in regards to the "rolefish". the first bolded part is what really seals the deal for me. "don refutes smash's case, however, he's still scummy". in other words, even if dj does townie stuff and posts well, i still think he's scum for my previously stated reasons and the rolefish. post 346 was "legit" according to implosion. if its "legit" then how did i refute it? and if you're going to say that i didn't refute it well, then why mention it at all? and why then include the word "however"? it don't make sense buddy, you're scum trying to cherry pick a case. you are ignoring the posts of mine that have seriously relevant content, condemning me for things that another player has done more of, and basically producing no original ideas as to why i am scum or how my actions have benefited scum.

dj 363: thing is, Consig never

did

anything. lew did.

consig had five posts. could he be scum avoiding an issue? maybe. could he be poor town? sure. null tell at best based on those posts. in other words, you took the easy target.

Still somewhat suspicious of Smash (alliteration unintentional). Purple reads town except for that one blemish that I can't quite overcome. Growing suspicion of ThAd, and also possibly vollkan based off of Gonzoooo 349. Gonzoooo for town. lew for PROBABLY town,

because his rolefishing looks like it could be accidental

to me and nothing else he's done is scummy imo. mallow's slot is still probably town, but we'll see his replacement.

this makes me chuckle. i'll repeat it, and i'd like everyone to answer it:

lew was saying "vig has no brains." dj was saying "vig shot was legit". which of those two statements do you think has more potential to draw out a vigilante?

understand that i am not making a case against lew for rolefishing(though one could be made). i am pointing out that implosion is accusing me of rolefishing, while giving lew a pass for the above statement, and some other alleged incident. in other words, lew gets two passes for rolefishing. dj is condemned. if you guys can honestly answer the above question and say that my statement had more potential to out a vig than lew's did, then i will withdraw my vote from implosion. his case is fabricated and entirely lame. thank you and good night.

[Purple Orange]

purple asks me to confirm my own meta stating that "its too much work" to do it themself. how is that prot-town? they might as well have said "hey, are you scum? i could work at it, but i'd rather not..." not exactly protown from my pov. his follow up of generic questions doesn't cut it either. my move to zhero was well documented. i don't find PO's post "scummy" per se, but i find it interesting that you pass it off as town when it really is just a bunch of questions from a lazy player who could have easily done a little research instead of asking the questions. but whatever. this is a very nice book report you have going.

What are you on? I realize this is sort of just a passing point of yours in a larger case against implosion, but it's frankly insulting on one hand, and flat out wrong on the other.

I

never

asked you to "confirm your own meta." I asked you if you had ever played a game with mallow - one tiny concrete question that I assumed you could answer faster and much more easily than me. When it turned out that wasn't the case, I did the "too much work" of tracking down a game with both you and mallow in it myself, about 10 posts later.

I did plenty of meta footwork myself, and I reference my findings in that first linked post and others. The only other person I asked about your meta was lew, who had said earlier in the thread he had planned to look into it, and with whom I wanted to compare findings. Gonzoooo later volunteered a lot of stuff on his own.

And "generic questions"? Your posts had major gaps of data in them, and I wanted blanks filled in that only you could answer. Like if there was anything more to your mallow vote, when you made it, than "competing wagons are good." You'd said nothing more in that post, and I wasn't sure whether you were also basing it on the views in a previous post THAT I FOUND AND QUOTED. I ISO'd your posts about 5 times trying to connect dots, before asking you anything. I quote and I link to the stuff I ask about. If that is "generic," heaven help us, because then I have very little idea what a "specific" question is. (And it was your move FROM Zhero I asked you about, not your move TO Zhero).

I wouldn't have cared a whit if you'd called me scummy. I do care that you called me a lazy player who isn't willing to do research and who asked bad questions. Especially when I'm pretty sure that post supports an exact opposite conclusion.

also, all players inquiring as to my meta are asking

me

the questions. noone bothered to look for themselves. thats not my fault and its not my responsibility to "create" a meta.

Have you been reading this thread at ALL? I did legwork. And Gonzoooo is calling on his own past experiences with you. Where does he ask you anything about your meta? He just states stuff he's observed, at least as far as I can recall. (I'll do the freaking legwork here too, and search for examples or counterexamples, and double-check what I'm remembering, when I next have time. But as

you're

the one bringing up these accusations without proffering any concrete references, I think the ball is rather in

your

court here). We've all grumped that you're hard to pin down, but I was pretty sure we all just accepted and dealt with it. Questions we've asked you have been about your conduct in this thread in particular, not about how you act in other games.

--------
I'll get to any stuff about implosion and smash as soon as I can, as tracking down scum is a BIT more important than defending my personal honor and whatnot. But, yeah, that's going to take research and legwork and time. Especially if your treatment of any of their posts is as bad as your treatment of that one post of mine.

[don_johnson]

You missed the point. The leg work you did after that post is irrelevant to the fact that implosion wrote you off as town. The post wasn't dripping town my friend. And if you want I can defense the meta statement. Gonzo is referring to ONE game we played as scum together and not even drawing a logical conclusion. Stop being selfish and try to see the bigger picture. Thanks.

[vollkan]

volkan: what i mean is, do you think its something more than coincidence that both the players i have accused today have moved their votes to me in response?

Depends on what you mean.

People do, understandably, focus more on cases made against them personally; it's just silly to pretend otherwise. The real issue is whether their attacks on you are in some respect defective, as suggestive that they aren't at least trying to approach you genuinely.

have you read either of their cases against me?

I skimmed, but I wasn't going to rebut their cases for you. I'll look at them in Interrogator detail now, since you say there is a problem.

Rundown of Imp's case

dj 311: calling someone lazy then saying you don't feel the need to do much. INTERESTING. Also shenanigans about the whole "move on" thing, which is still really weird.

What does "INTERESTING" mean here? Are you accusing him of hypocrisy, or not?

And what shenanigans about "move on"?

dj 317: o_o.

?_?

Purple 352: a blatant accusation of rolefishing directed at lewarcher (at least that's the most notable thing IMO). Something like this needed to come from someone at some point. I really think one of lew/dj is likely scum, because I doubt a conversation like what transpired would happen between 2 mafia, but it just seems like pointless rolefishing on one of their parts and a need to continue the conversation for the other. Not much else of lew makes me suspicious, so I'm inclined to look at don for scum.

How does this point to DJ-scum?

dj 354: essentially, he's saying he has no meta. Hrm.

Actually, he said:

Not sure how to answer the meta questions. I don't believe I hav a reliable meta. My style and amount of contribution depend on many variable factors both in game and rl. I hav already stated my suspects and who I'm willing to lynch atm. I have not reread the thread yet. When i do I'll let you know if anything has changed.x

The way you present it makes it sound like he is trying to avoid people attacking him based on his meta, when the actual argument he mounts is entirely reasonable.

dj 359: honestly, not much notable here. He refutes Smash's case. I still think don is scummy however, mostly because of what I already brought up in my last posts and also because of the possible rolefishing incident.

You mean the previosu points covered?

dj 363: thing is, Consig never did anything. lew did.

So...?

I fail to see how this case is voteworthy, let alone L-1 worthy.

Imp+8

and

@Lew

what, in a nutshell, is your anti-DJ case?

@ThAdmiral and volkan - what are your thoughts on the dj wagon?

I've only given him 5 points, which indicates my level of suspicion.

I also dislike Imp's reasoning. Is there any specific aspect you think I have missed?

Ok. I assumed that saying I would be joining the wagon meant that I agreed with the rationale. I said that the wagon was going too fast, which is why I didn't vote right away.

I know that. I can read.

My point is is and has been since the first time I raised this issue that there is an obvious inconsistency in saying that you are ready to vote (minus an artificial time buffer of a few days), but also smearing the other wagoners for joining too quickly.

By voting for a competing wagon, you allowed yourself to avoid putting a vote on the werewolf(town) wagon, and therefore the scrutiny that comes the say after. I'm sayign that your move to mallow was just so that when werewolf (the more likely lynch) would probably flip, you would have hands clean and a suspect for the next day already.

If DJ-town genuinely suspected Mallow over Werewolf should he have voted Werewolf anyway?

It is my opinion that one (good) explanation for this is that smash IS in fact scum. I have no idea if DJ is town or bussing scum. He seems to react with violence to everyone voting him, but given his record I would have to assume that, as scum, he would know better than this.

To my shock, I actually agree with most of your 399. The above is the only point that bothers me. Why do you think we can expect a higher standard of play from scum-DJ than town-DJ? I'm among the first to say that OMGUS is not scummy, but you actually seem to be arguing it is a towntell.

226 is pretty bad. But I do see how you could have been saying, "I agree with the reasons, but I think the wagon has moved suspiciously fast just the same," and just communicated it really badly. (Ala Zhero's FAIL communication of his thinking in the "smell a bus" post). I'm willing to consider your responses to the questions about 226 as genuine clarification, not rationalization. Other people gotta make their own calls. I think 226 has been pushed about as far as it can be pushed, though.
[/qupte]

I think you are being too generous here.

I can understand how somebody could both think that a wagon was reasonable but also that it was moving too quickly.

But Smash didn't do that. He indicated that he would join the wagon in a few days time. I can't see in any sense why that has any game relevance; it is, as I indicated above, entirely artificial.

[Purple Orange]

You missed the point. The leg work you did after that post is irrelevant to the fact that implosion wrote you off as town. The post wasn't dripping town my friend. And if you want I can defense the meta statement. Gonzo is referring to ONE game we played as scum together and not even drawing a logical conclusion. Stop being selfish and try to see the bigger picture. Thanks.

Agreed on the selfish sentence, shan't argue further. (Also, it's likely our definitions of "meta" simply differ - my question about mallow could fall under a very broad definition).

I did find Volkan asking you about your meta #348, so I was wrong that no one did. Didn't find anyone else asking you, however - just a lot of us asking one another questions about you, and proffering some of our own findings.

You're right that implosion shouldn't be criticizing you for saying you have no meta (assuming that's what his hrm meant) -- it's

not

your job to establish or volunteer one, it's ours to go look for a scum vs. town playstyle on your part, if we think that track is worth pursuing. And given that those of us who have looked have come back with a "DJ is hard to read" verdict of one form or another, you saying "I've got no meta" isn't unjustified.

[lewarcher82]

I read some meta of don johnson. I discovered two things:

1) he uses voting blocks when he is town;

2) he is a fierce opposer of discussing roles when he is town.

The two data are in contrast. Point 1 would make me think: he is prolly town, or, at least, his voting block proposal must not be used against him. But Point 2 tells me: if he is a fierce opposer of discussing roles, why did he used a probably stupid statement by me in order start a discussion on vig?

mod: I know you are doing everything possible, but the absence of mallow is starting to become a big issue here... any news? cannot u just skip the thread and invite someone you know?

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAdmiral - I'd like something a bit more substantial from you about dj than a comment on a single point. Particularly since I assume you've played with him before. DJ is an accomplished player that isn't likely to be caught out by standard scumtells, but I really feel like his play feels off this game.

I've played one game with him before that I can recall, and we were scum in that one. So I wouldn't say I have a good handle on his meta.
I do feel like your reasoning is very wishy-washy in regards to dj though. Do you admit that there could be plenty of reasons why his play might "feel off" to you in this game that may not have anything to do with him being scum?

I'm fairly convinced at this point that we have a 1v1 situation in the competing wagons, given the deadlock we seem to be at for the moment. This is ultimately quite good for the town because it is going to be very telling after the lynch.

I agree. 2 competing wagons in a day is generally the best thing for town. However...

we also need to lynch correctly today, so I want everyone to think long and hard about DJ vs. Smash and pick a side.

Is misleading. You are implying here that one of the two is definitely scum but this is not a foregone conclusion. Please respond to this.

@Thad:

I wonder why thad addressed his criticism to me alone (#345).

ThAd 345: referral to the first lew possible rolefishing without mentioning the last 10 highly relevant posts... wut?

^Thirded, actually. Why only mention lew? (And, yeah, I realize I followed you on this, and failed to officially include DJ when I said "rolefishing." My bad, there).

I wasn't accusing lew of rolefishing, I was accusing him of rounding down for the scum who the vig was by calling the vig stupid.

And why the WIFOM about the extension? Didn't peg you as someone who'd do that.

Yeah. It was a silly throwaway line and I probably should have just not said it.

Finally, why the werewolf vote in #193? Not that I can't deduce one or more reasons from previous posts, but I'd like to hear your specific reason(s)

Lew's response was satisfactory to me. I didn't feel as compelled to vote him any more so I moved to my next scumspect.

what are your feelings about the voting block, and what were your feelings when it was first proposed?

I had never heard of the concept before but I actually liked it. I think it is a bit dangerous though and should only be implemented when the town reads are a bit stronger, as even one scum in the mix can potentially make it an anti-town force. I hadn't planned on complying with it in this game because I believe it has been hard to get good town reads on people.
If the question was more about how did I feel about dj when he suggested it I have to say it struck me as somewhat of a more-likely-town-play. I thought it was sure to cop some heat, which it did, and that is why I feel it would have been a less likely play for scum.

@ThAd

: not that this should need asking but... why the WIFOM?

No real reason. Soz.

[lewarcher82]

what are your feelings about the voting block, and what were your feelings when it was first proposed?

I had never heard of the concept before but I actually liked it. I think it is a bit dangerous though and should only be implemented when the town reads are a bit stronger, as even one scum in the mix can potentially make it an anti-town force. I hadn't planned on complying with it in this game because I believe it has been hard to get good town reads on people.
If the question was more about how did I feel about dj when he suggested it I have to say it struck me as somewhat of a more-likely-town-play. I thought it was sure to cop some heat, which it did, and that is why I feel it would have been a less likely play for scum.

I agree with it. I did raise an eyebrow, but it was the second time I saw such a thing in my ms career, and after all I found it pro-town. However, the last time I saw someone propose a vb there was a difference - I cannot recall the game but I am pretty sure: in this case, the vb was a 4-player vb on a day in which lynch-treshold is 5. I did not notice it until later (prolly cause gonzooo did not accept the invitation, so we hit L-1 only later). I still think that putting people at L-1 today is dangerous, because this is out last ml.
However, as I just say, my exploration of dj's meta revealed that he used vb's in a game in which he was town (town cop, to be precise)...

now I go to bed, cuz my english is becoming almost unreadable...

[Gonzoooo]

I'm going to try to keep this as brief as possible so as not to wall the game, but it might get a touch long. Sorry in advance.

gonzo: one of your earlier posts gave me the impression that you were leaning towards me because i was being more "logical" in this game than when we had previously played. can you flesh that out for me? i am doing my best to avoid being lynched today. and

it doesn't make sense to give someone scum points if they are playing more "logical" than in a game when they were scum, no?

I don't understand the bolded, what is the other game you are referring to?

Anyhow, to answer what I think the question is, I am working under the belief that you try to sound much more logical and persuasive as scum than you do as town. I have gone back through your most recent games and I randomly picked the first scum game and first town game I clicked on. The scum game was The Lies of Locke Lamora. You replaced in at some point and kind of lurked because of the holiday, but I think if anyone isos you in that game they will very clearly see thick walls of text and you try to play the reasonable townie by asking furc to hold of lynching and "we should be holding off with votes until jenni claims" etc. I think these are actions that are generally perceived to be protown and that is why you regularly engage in them.

The town game I clicked on was Open 255 in which you were town. This game you have a great deal of one-liners and short posts. You pitch fake stats at Shotty as you buddy him and generally push the scum around. You come across as a brazen leader who is out to ruffle feathers and who gives a shit if people think it's anti-town or scummy.

Now, I'm not saying this game clearly falls on either side of the fence, but if I was picking between these two recent games I would certainly say that your play here is closer to LLL than Open 255. This is what I mean by you playing more "logical". Perhaps a synonym in this case would be "close to your chest".

i mean, as it stands, the two most oppurtunistic votes made today(smash and implo on dj) seem to be drawing very little scrutiny. in the meantime, i am being scrutinized for attempting to create a voting block of players i had town reads on at the time.

This is AtE. Also, I don't think you can consider smash's vote on you all that opportunistic considering I was the only one on the wagon.

Not sure who I'd put after these three.

I don't think that paragraph was very clear, who are the other two besides DJ?

Is there any specific aspect you think I have missed?

I'll come back around. Have you played with dj prior to this game? If you already answered this, I apologize.

In unrelated matters, why are you not pressuring lewarcher at all? He was quite high in your points system yesterday and I see nary a word or two in his direction today. Nor are you trying to get him lynched. What gives?

I've played one game with him before that I can recall, and we were scum in that one. So I wouldn't say I have a good handle on his meta.

That was LLL I believe, right? Please look through a few of his recent town games if you get a chance just for a point of reference.

I do feel like your reasoning is very wishy-washy in regards to dj though.

Well, I never claimed it was a solid case based on more than a strong gut feeling about this, and if you're demanding more from me on this case you aren't going to get it. I'm sure I could go back and read his iso and attribute scum motives to many of his actions, but I feel I've hit the high points of it already without wasting so much breath. He's playing a conservative game here that is designed to get mislynches and not rock the boat.

Do you admit that there could be plenty of reasons why his play might "feel off" to you in this game that may not have anything to do with him being scum?

I can think of the one I believe you're implying here. Not so sure I'm sold on that angle, but I catch your drift.

You are implying here that one of the two is definitely scum but this is not a foregone conclusion. Please respond to this.

I do feel that one of the two of them is scum. If that were not the case, I don't see why scum wouldn't have piled on one or the other and pushed the lynch through by now. What do you feel is the scum motivation for having two viable wagons on town players and not proceeding to lynch one of them?

I had never heard of the concept before but I actually liked it. I think it is a bit dangerous though and should only be implemented when the town reads are a bit stronger, as even one scum in the mix can potentially make it an anti-town force. I hadn't planned on complying with it in this game because I believe it has been hard to get good town reads on people.
If the question was more about how did I feel about dj when he suggested it I have to say it struck me as somewhat of a more-likely-town-play. I thought it was sure to cop some heat, which it did, and that is why I feel it would have been a less likely play for scum.

Town voting blocs have been in fashion lately based on site meta, with SpyreX being one of the origin points I believe. It's really only a matter of time before scum abused it as a "townie" move. I think it's a null tell at best.


Has anyone in this game played with smashbro before?

[don_johnson]

I'll post a bit more later but I just want to point out that meta cases are generally fail. For a meta case to have merit, one must assume a certainty of continuity in ones play from one game to the next. There are too many variables involved for it to be logical. More in depth later.

[don_johnson]

I read some meta of don johnson. I discovered two things:

1) he uses voting blocks when he is town;

2) he is a fierce opposer of discussing roles when he is town.

i have been town in 32 completed games. how many have you read? how many times have i used a voting block in all 32 games? in how many of those games did i "fiercely oppose" discussing roles?

i have advocated massclaims before. i have claimed early before. i have requested early claims before. all as town.

i have tried to start two voting blocks if memory serves, this being the second. i think i have played in four games with blocks(including this one).

why did he used a probably stupid statement by me in order start a discussion on vig?

why did you make a "probably stupid statement"? please do not shift the blame to me when you clearly posted about the issue first. and exactly what about the "discussion" was scummy(if thats what you are implying)?

on the voting block: whether or not it created a situation which placed a player at L-1 should be only mildly relevant. the idea of a voting block is to create pressure in a unified direction and to secure lynches. the voting block was not enough to lynch, but enough to secure a majority so that the target would feel pressured to respond and would also be in range of being lynched if necessary. again, there was nothing underhanded or clandestine about my suggestion.

Town voting blocs have been in fashion lately based on site meta, with SpyreX being one of the origin points I believe. It's really only a matter of time before scum abused it as a "townie" move. I think it's a null tell at best.

^^ sensible.

more later. favorite tv show is on.

[don_johnson]

Well, I never claimed it was a solid case based on more than a strong gut feeling about this, and if you're demanding more from me on this case you aren't going to get it. I'm sure I could go back and read his iso and attribute scum motives to many of his actions, but I feel I've hit the high points of it already without wasting so much breath.

He's playing a conservative game here that is designed to get mislynches and not rock the boat

.

do you think smash and implosion are town? and how exactly am i not rocking the boat? if this is our last mislynch before lylo, why are you so willing to vote on a case that isn't "solid" and seems to be based mostly on gut by your own admission? hows about you go back through my iso and attribute that "scum motivation"?

This is AtE. Also, I don't think you can consider smash's vote on you all that opportunistic considering I was the only one on the wagon.

i disagree. smash's vote was omgus with a weak case behind it. hows about you address his case on me? or implosion's for that matter. i was pointing out that the suspicion seems to be pushed in my general direction when there is much more "scummy" stuff elsewhere.

I don't understand the bolded, what is the other game you are referring to?

cowboy bebop. we also played that western style game where we had dayvig's. but i thought you were referring to when we were scum together in bebop.

LLL was a game i replaced into reluctantly. the game interested me early on, but by the time a replacement was needed the game was terribly long. it was fun and i think i did a good job keeping the heat off of my slot, but i can only think of maybe one other game where i played similarly at all to that one. pointing out that a scum player is trying to do things that appear protown is like saying the sky is blue. i don't really get where you're goiong with this "meta" case. if you want to make a meta case, you need to read through at least 60%(28) of my games before i think you would have anything remotely statistically reliable. and at that point i don't even think it would be close. the way a player plays in a game depends on a lot of variables:

1) the mod and how interesting they make the flavor.
2) the rules, special abilities
3) the number of factions
4) the players role and alignment
5) the number of players in the game
6) the relative length of the game compared to a players attention span.
7) the other players who are in the game, their playstyles, and whether or not they are familiar with each other.

etc. etc.

point being. stop dicking the dog and start looking at

this

thread and tell me who you think is scum. both yourself and lew are dropping off my townlist for this incessant obsession with meta.

new voting bloc: volkan, thad, PO, dj. but whatever. i have a busy week ahead. hopefully we can get a replacement soon.