Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[Purple Orange]

General passive play, by both players using that slot. Little to no scumhunting and an extremely hesitant start. If your lucky I'll get you quotes at the end of the night.

Day 1 I take it you agree with Implosion on me. Day 2, I've certainly spent mostly asking questions about/arguing with points of other people's cases, rather than picking a particular person or two and going headlong after them. (Case in point, my last post). Don't forget that I haven't even cast a vote today, while you're at it. It is what it is. *shrug*

Deadline's coming, so I'm going to have to offer a definitive case and a vote, but at this point it will seriously be as rickety as everything I've seen from everyone else today.

After that Lew gets buddied. He was "completely legitimate". PO is taking. Oh, PO is going to like me too (I'm not English either!). And then the "thank you" to gonzo who thought consig was town. Another attempt at buddying.

People asked me to explain why I had a town read on lew. I didn't think HE was completely legitimate, I thought his differentiation between the DJ and mallow vote was completely legitimate, and that Gonzoooo was wrong to go after him for that.

Aside from Gonzo's buddying of me (and me of him?), do you have any other reasons right now you think he's scummy? There's some stuff that naggles me, but someone would have to show me that his defense of a VI and his shutdown of any vig discussion have probable reason to be scum-motivated before I'd vote for him. I'm occasionally paranoid enough to dismiss the first, but the second one especially is a high price to pay just to solidify one's position as town.

i actually like the PO case here. PO's last post seems to be trying to pigeonhole my implosion vote by tieing it to the post in which it was initially laid down, but not responding to any of the walls of text that i subsequently posted. nor does it address implo's play at all. its just kind of a sideways stab at a vulnerable player(me). plus, i like myk.

Getting there, man. I think your strongest point against Implosion has to do with his treatment of the vig discussion, and zeriong in on you over lew. Hence why I'm relooking at the whole vig thing. You were asked for a bullet-point case on the guy to summarize all those walls of text, you never gave it, so I'm going with what I can get as I find it. Your initial reason for your vote is terribad. So hells yeah that increases my suspicion of you.

Vote Count

don_johnson (2) - smashbro_of_the_SSS, implosion
Purple Orange (2) - mykonian, don_johnson
smashbro_of_the_SSS (1) - vollkan

Not Voting (4) - Purple Orange, lewarcher82, ThAdmiral, Gonzoooo

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 13th, PST.

[don_johnson]

i appreciate it if you'd look at it. noone asked me for bullet points except gonzo asking about smash. implo's posting hasn't been good imo. if you are willing to join a wagon on one of my other lynch targets i will grant you the reprieve, but i don't think myself(obviously) or smash should be lynched today. i don't see any reason to give gonzo a pass on his behavior. there is plenty of scum motivation for him to do what he did. i think i explained how his "shutting down the vig discussion" looks more like a ploy than anything. i honestly don't think the discussion was that bad. i found lew's comments the only ones that were mildly damaging, but gonzo seemed to portray everyone involved in a scummy light when the discussion had certain relevant points. but whatever. let's hear what you have to say. you really haven't been decisive and i think myk brings that to light well.

[ThAdmiral]

Thoughts on dj: it seems like his meta, if anything, suggests he is more-likely-town in this game. The only thing I haven't been liking is the constant asking for "evidence" and "proof" as if in mafia there is ever any substantial evidence or proof. It is not a court of law where people are innocent until proven guilty, it is more of the opposite actually.

@mykonian: I was "actually improving" at end of page 4... then what? I just became town? I find the way you comment thing very insufficient. This is just a sample. You are voting PO. Still anything I did in the first 3 pages was attacking consig (=PO) and gonzooo, who defended consig (PO). Then what? What happens? Are my attacks scummy, or are they a way of bussing? You think I would bus someone right after RVS? Probably not, since you say I am town, but how? When? Why?
What about vollkan? I do not understand your vote. Then you immediately unvote, but this is far from being ok. You cannot just say: hey, I am reading page x so I am voting A; oh, wait, now after page x+1 I feel more like voting B. What reads can I get from this? null, null and null.

Way to freak out.

@gonzooo&don: I am not answering the question on which vig-statement I find scummier, it would be ridiculous.

Because yours was scummier?

i'm really sorry guys, but I don't have time for this game.

replace out please

Dammit. Was really hoping for a response to my last question to him.
Since he obv won't be able to answer it I will put it to everyone else. Smash said this:

That's the thing. I don't see Dj town. He had been telling me to present a good case on Mallow all day, and didn't seem to believe in it. But once the Werewolf wagon gained votes, he suddenly thinks that it would be good to have two wagons, and goes onto none other than Mallow. He had been vocal about his other reads, but didn't seem to be sold on Mallow. Once someone else joined the Mallow wagon, he joined it too, rather than Werewolf. That's the point. I didn't think that DJ suspected Mallow over Werewolf.

I had a look and didn't see it. Does anybody else think dj did act like this or not?

Willing to vote:
smash/whoever replaces him

Could be convinced to vote:
implosion
dj
lew

Not all that interested in voting:
gonzo
volko
po
myko

[don_johnson]

i didn't realize there would be this much support for an implosion wagon. i'm impressed.

Thad: whats up with PO? do you get myk's case? agree/disagree?

[Purple Orange]

let's hear what you have to say. you really haven't been decisive and i think myk brings that to light well.

I agree with myk on that. But in line with what lew said somewhere earlier, it's been damn hard to tell anything about this game. The guy I

wanted

to push disappeared at the beginning of the day, and I've just about thrown up my hands since then trying to turn up anything solid.

Sorry for lack of links in the following. I'll find them later if anyone wants the exact references.

On Gonzooo:

* As stated, disliked his initial attack on lew.
* His buddying of me. I don't know why exactly he's been "PO is town"ing me so hard, but I almost prefer myk ripping me one to whatever Gonz had been doing. When he says he "trusts me completely" -- what the hell kind of language is that? Flattery? Trying to get me on his good side? If so, it did the darn exact opposite. I've not been asking him about DJ all day just to find out about DJ. My town read on him has been in spite of stuff like this, not because of it.
* His fuzzy gut reasons for going after DJ, that my too-long research into DJ's meta

didn't support

.
* Fuzzy niggling reason for disliking implosion, ala the above.
* I get paranoid and suspicious when anyone tries to be the reasonable voice of reason, leading the town. Gonzoo was doing that day 1, and he's doing it today as well, particularly with that "1 v 1, let's pick one now" thing.

The reason I've shrugged and rolled with it thus far is because of the two things in the previous post. I didn't think either had much scum motivation at all, and those were stronger towntells than I'd gotten from ANYONE else in this thread. If I had to assume anyone's townieness to narrow down the ridiculous variables and options, I was going to assume his.

I'm also paranoid that myk is scum and Gonz is not, and that myk is barreling in here to cast suspicion upon everyone NOT already under suspicion, distract from the fact that a polarizing "1 v 1" really did exist, and create utter confusion and WIFOM from the lynch. If you want how my brain's been working during D2, and why I've been so indecisive, it's stuff like THAT.

======================

Implo's case on DJ

is bad as well. As far as I can tell, it consists of:
* "move on" language is suspicious.
* DJ is lazy. 4 votes with no explanation. Only recent contribution a call for voting block. No recent scumhunting.
* the conversation between lew and DJ about sapo and the vig is scummy, one of the people involved is likely scum, and because lew hasn't given any previous indication of scumminess, DJ is the scum.

To answer:
* "Move on" case is crud. DJ's meaning was clear. It's in line with standard aggressive DJ. Moving on. :/
* DJ pops around with votes like this in lots of his games. I wasn't a fan either, until I read some more of him. Meh. Null tell. I've come to see the call for a voting block as an aggressive action, in line with how town-DJ would act. And...well...he's certainly started scumhunting later today. Higher proportion of self-defense still naggly, but he's definitely not doing nothing.
* Inherent in conversation itself, lew more suspect than DJ. Still in process of reevaluating this thing. :/

==========

On Implosion

* His case on Consig was reasonable enough -- the guy's posts were pretty bad. :/ Not gonna blame anyone for going there.
* He misrepped wolf when he moved his vote over to him. Not good, but he wasn't the only one. (3rd person on wagon, moved it off Consig/me).
* Misrepped some of what I said when he made a case on me, but case overall not unreasonable, can see where he's coming from.
* Made a pretty bad case on you. My verdict on that is dependent, however, on some of your meta I've read, not a pure analysis of your actions ingame. All imp used was action ingame, and I had some sympathy for his middle set of points due to that (and the fact it was before you posted text walls today).

He's been playing a rather lurky game with decently reasonable posts, topped by a crud case today like everyone else and their mother. That's my current take on him. A slightly scum reading at best, and there's days I read his stuff and think he's town.

I'll look at your further points on Imp when I get a chance. If I remember correctly, you criticized him for picking consig and wolf, easy targets?

============

And Gonzooo's thing

(srsly subject to change):

If I had to pick:
Smash (because 1:1 may be case, and DJ has currently slipped down my suspect list due to all the meta garbage I did. Need to iso and read Smash posts again.)
Gonzo (because of above stuff in post, and myk also getting scum read making me think I might not be absolutely crazy).

OK with lynching
Implo (depending on what I ate for breakfast in the morning, I interpret him as scummy)
DJ (because he hasn't slipped down THAT much)
myk (mallow carryover, also stuff in this post)

Not interested today (mostly because I haven't ISO'd their posts yet :/)
Thad
Lew
volk

[Gonzoooo]

Congrats PO, you went from town to VI again. You should learn to see the forest for the trees and stop getting bogged down with so much paranoia.

In other news, why do you keep agreeing with myk's case on you? It was actually a pretty shittly put together case, so it's kind of odd that you're so readily agreeing with it (and he makes your possible lynch list, wtf?)

[vollkan]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p2621836

This was the catchup post by Thad, and it is decent. While at the start of the game people were waiting for DJ to think up something for them and then did nothing with it, Thad sees it immediately, and then points out key points in the Lew case. The fact that he can do this so spot on makes me think that he's actually looking for points (in stead of trying to make a save entrance into the game)

If we compare this to the entrance of PO: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2623504

First he's attacking wolf. While I'm not really happy with the reasonings used, it is scumhunting. The same goes for the attack on mallow (me). It consists of one point and is further based on the fact that Mallow was a lurker. Fine. Not very scummy, but definately a save place to put your vote down. After that Lew gets buddied. He was "completely legitimate". PO is taking. Oh, PO is going to like me too (I'm not English either!). And then the "thank you" to gonzo who thought consig was town. Another attempt at buddying.

This is completely opposite to Thad, who actually scumhunted. PO played it save, and I don't like it (esspecially seen that consig was scummy too).

I don't entirely agree.

First, and I really don't think this is just a consequence of me not believing in 99% of towntells, there's nothing in Thad's post that can't reasonably come from scum. You say he's contributing rather than "playing it safe" - but there's nothing "safe" about a lax opening post. It really just depends on whether a person plays scum by being passive or by being more aggressive and active.

As for PO: The biggest problem I see here, and I'm going to

PO+7

, points contingent on respnose, is that the reasoning on werewolf, while not good, is much better than the reasoning on mallow which, as you say, is largely a lurker case. I don't think making a lurker case is scummy in and of itself (I hate lurker wagoning, but it's a fairly common fail).

People I might be convinced to lynch as a compromise:
vollkan

Because?

[Purple Orange]

In other news, why do you keep agreeing with myk's case on you? It was actually a pretty shittly put together case, so it's kind of odd that you're so readily agreeing with it (and he makes your possible lynch list, wtf?)

Because I

have

been indecisive? Srsly, does that post look decisive in ANY way to you? Do any of mine today? I disagree the concrete stuff he's tried to pull out against me thus far, and obviously with the assertion that my indecision means I'm scum, but not that broad-brush assessment of indecisiveness.

myk makes it because of the mallow carryover. And because I see possible scum motivation for what he could be doing. I still don't have a read on him as himself.

I had a look and didn't see it. Does anybody else think dj did act like this or not?

DJ said too little for me to tell what was going through his head. I have no idea what he thought of wolf, as the people he'd talked about up until then were Zhero and mallow. I asked him about why he moved to mallow, though, and he answered here.

As for PO: The biggest problem I see here, and I'm going to

PO+7

, points contingent on respnose, is that the reasoning on werewolf, while not good, is much better than the reasoning on mallow which, as you say, is largely a lurker case. I don't think making a lurker case is scummy in and of itself (I hate lurker wagoning, but it's a fairly common fail).

Same response I gave lew -- I thought my wolf case was the weaker of the two. (He didn't agree either).

My strongest reason for going after wolf is the first sentence I posted. "His accusations and votes struck me as newb scum, having a field day, trying to be "helpful" and join the party and get someone lynched, rather than newb townie actually trying to find mafia." How does one prove an interpretation like that? I tried to point out why I got that impression, but it's pretty much still a pure gut read.

Mallow has sheeped like wolf has, and has actively lurked without positive contribution more than wolf has. My gut read on him isn't as strong, possibly just because he's been more quiet. But when I compare posts, his are ones I feel I can more concretely point to as lurking scum.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

I still plan on replacing out, given that it's around time for finals, and I probably won't have much time this week or on vacations to contribute. However, Ald asked me to stick around for a couple days, until the day is over. I assume this is so a replacement can be found at night. So I'll keep playing till the end of the day. If you can't find a replacement I'll stick around, but I can't guarantee much time/posts.

Had a look. Where did dj do what you say he did? I don't see it.

Looking back, I have to take back the point that DJ was not interested in Mallow. He was, but with these posts.

i could be persuaded to the mallow wagon at this point.

i could get with a mallow wagon. but i think thad's questions should be answered.

These aren't taken out of any context of reasons for this. They're still not looking good to me, as it seems to be another throwaway line just to cover himself if he joins.

I was originally voting Mallow, then PO joined the wagon. DJ follows PO.




ok, so, overall. This game hasn't gotten any more clear for me. myko hasn't done anything for me to improve the slot, so I would still like that lynch. DJ's play hasn't sat well with me either, even though that read is not as strong as I had believed earlier in the day. I'd take myko over, DJ, but wouldn't mind DJ next.

As for the others, I really don't know. I see PO as town, same with ThAd, Volkan and Lew. If pushed, I would have to say that I wouldn't mind a lynch on Gonzoo or Implo. I've though Implo was town, but I'll have to reread the case again. The Gonzoo case is interesting, and I think could be something to be looked into, but I'm not on board with that quite yet. I'd need more convincing.


Myko hasn't made much of an argument since joining the game, only defending his vote on PO, sayign that PO's play has been passive. The main argument is that PO's play has been completely opposite from ThAd's. Since when does whether someone is passive or aggressive mean they are or aren't scum? Also, If you want, I can bring up my old case on Mallow, but I'm pretty sure most people get the gist. giving us as little as possible in regards to scumhunting and his read.

I should be getting to bed, as mentioned, finals week. for now

unvote, vote:mykonian

I'll keep checking the thread through the day tomorrow

[Alduskkel]

Now looking for a replacement for smashbro_of_the_SSS. No deadline extension since I convinced him to stick around for a bit.

[Purple Orange]

I was originally voting Mallow, then PO joined the wagon. DJ follows PO.

Why did you get off it and jump on wolf's right after that?

[ThAdmiral]

Thad: whats up with PO? do you get myk's case? agree/disagree?

If I'm not mistaken it's mainly that PO played it safe. There could be a case in that but I am not swayed at this point.

[Gonzoooo]

Because?

I feel like you're very much in the background of this game. You came out swinging and I like some of your stuff attacking smash, but then some of it feels very rhetorical and I have no real clue where you are standing at the moment. I mean, even dj doesn't like the smash case anymore, but you're still hanging on that vote and it doesn't seem like you're really trying to persuade people onto the lynch so much as you're lost for a new direction. I see you turning to look at suspects as other people bring them up rather than actively going after who you dislike (though I do give you credit for your lew case). In your next post, please fill out the list I asked from everyone and succinctly explain why you want smash lynched, or if you're moving on, why you'd want your new target lynched.

Because I have been indecisive? Srsly, does that post look decisive in ANY way to you? Do any of mine today?

I think there is plenty of genuine scumhunting from you today, even if you haven't been hyper-aggressive. I can see you asking real questions to people and trying to figure out WHY people want to lynch other people. Aggression is a null tell. So, that is why I find it odd that you're agree with myk, but your will seems to becoming increasingly jellyfish as the game progresses and gets more complex, so it could just be a personality trait.

I think this can actually be related to your issues with my "buddying" to you. You are worried about this because you see no reason for a town to buddy when they can't be 100% certain of a read. I will just say that my mafia theory is that being weak-willed and constantly paranoid makes you lose more often than reading the facts and taking a stance. Scum are terrified of townies that join together during the day and refuse to lynch each other. I've had a town read on your slot since Consig and I'm certain of that because that entire wagon read as very fabricated to me. Is there a chance I could be wrong? Sure. But based on my ability to read the situation, I'm willing to wager that I'm right and put any paranoia about that aside. I suggest you similarly learn to take stances once in awhile on things you're sure about. If you've been putting genuine effort in this game, and I feel you have, then who the hell is myk to say you're being indecisive because you're trying to figure things out. What is your scum motivation for asking a ton of questions and metaing dj to no end? Just a thought.

If we're really not lynching dj today (and I do think he's an excellent choice and it really was 1v1, but I don't have anything to prove that until the game is over), then I'm switching my vote to smash, implosion or vollkan.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

I was originally voting Mallow, then PO joined the wagon. DJ follows PO.

Why did you get off it and jump on wolf's right after that?

I can't really prove this, but I was working on my post while DJ voted. I did see that DJ went over to the Mallow wagon afterwards, but I was suspicious of Werewolf at the time, and thought that the extra pressure would help me get a better read on Werewolf. With a couple people on Mallow already, and it was known that I still was interested in Mallow, I thought there would be enough pressure on him too.

[Purple Orange]

Turns out you already answered that...bad of me for not looking back over it first.

At the time, only one other person had their vote on mallow, and I felt that my vote would be better used to pressure werewolf / still concentrate on one of my scum reads. When I say one, I mean the vote from PurpleOrange, although DJ had a vote on mallow also. DJ's votes go around so much, and with little justification that I tend to not put much stock in them.

And a bit of inconsistency in the answer, actually, unless I'm missing something. If DJ's votes hop around, there's pretty much going to be zilch pressure on mallow with you gone, and me the only one on him. :/

I can't really prove this, but I was working on my post while DJ voted. I did see that DJ went over to the Mallow wagon afterwards, but I was suspicious of Werewolf at the time, and thought that the extra pressure would help me get a better read on Werewolf. With a couple people on Mallow already, and it was known that I still was interested in Mallow, I thought there would be enough pressure on him too.

Why exactly were you suspicious of werewolf? What did you see as "off" about his language? One of your reasons for going over to him in that post involves a failure to understand his stated reason for going over to consig (he was moving his vote to the more likely of his two suspects to be lynched). Which, ironically, is the same the reason you later give in defending your moves off of mallow and onto consig and werewolf.

What exactly was your case against DJ? "You jumped on mallow instead of the popular bandwagons, because you didn't want to be associated with a mislynch (even though bussing your scum partner would be risky at that point, and even though you went and voted for wolf later as deadline bore down, because you needed a town lynch!)" ??

This, though, I think is a decent point.

As mentioned, DJ votes for Mallow to allow for competing wagons on Day 1. I assume that this shows that he also entertains the idea of Mallow being scum, or at least scummy. He does say that he would be interesting in a Mallow wagon. However, today he writes:

its nice to see smash trying, but ultimately his posts are weak. he is still using the events of the rvs to condemn mallow. i don't think mallow's actions at that point in the game were terribly scummy.

I don't particularly like the inconsistencies.

First, DJ could just be saying "it was OK to go after him for RVS stuff D1, but to keep clinging to it today is questionable," which isn't inconsistent.

However, while I'm not sure who DJ suspected most at that point in the game, from all his declared statements today, I do doubt it was mallow. Which I think ties into what you and Thad were going back and forth about.

That's the thing. I don't see Dj town. He had been telling me to present a good case on Mallow all day, and didn't seem to believe in it. But once the Werewolf wagon gained votes, he suddenly thinks that it would be good to have two wagons, and goes onto none other than Mallow. He had been vocal about his other reads, but didn't seem to be sold on Mallow. Once someone else joined the Mallow wagon, he joined it too, rather than Werewolf. That's the point. I didn't think that DJ suspected Mallow over Werewolf.

I had a look and didn't see it. Does anybody else think dj did act like this or not?

But as stated above, I'm not sure why he'd bus his partner quite that early if he's scum (unless Gonz is right about his proclivity to set up busses early as scum). This is assuming mallow/myk is scum, of course.
=============

Thoughts on dj: it seems like his meta, if anything, suggests he is more-likely-town in this game.

I don't actually know WHAT the heck his meta suggests. Everything except pushing for a voting block (which, eh, he MIGHT be using as scum for the first time), and his highish amount of self defense, makes me give null tells to everything he does, even when I

want

to read them as scummy (ala votes without reasons). And it's not like cloggy quote walls can't be a viable scum tactic...and in LLL he voiced an admiration for their scum-use, in a circumstance similar to this.

[lewarcher82]

Since the deadline gets closer, it is necessarily time for me to cast my vote. I honestly dislike the way myk entered the game; however, I wonder if a scum player would take the risk of jumping into a game and attack players in an apparently chaotic way, refusing to provide the rest of the players with motivations... on the other hand, whenever we wonder about "what scum would(n't) do", we enter the infinitely recursive world of wifom. It remains decisive to me, at the moment, that I did not find mallow particularly scummy when he was active. I had the feeling he was a frustrated lurker (as I already stated early in the game).

I reserve the right of collecting more reads from myk as the game goes on. In order to do this, I exclude voting him right now.

Gonzooo started the game with an extremely self-confident defense of consigliere: it took very long to convince me that consig was not scum. More precisely, it took PO replacing him. PO gave me towntells. If you need me to provide samples of this, I will. Whatever is the case, gonzooo and PO are strictly connected to each other by the consig-case on day 1. Having one of them lynched could provide information on the other, but since PO is a solid towntell of mine, I am not willing to take this risk.

Corollary(1): it was pointed out that gonzooo is a great player, who is able to play scum without appearing scummy. I am aware of this, but I only have my eyes to read this game. I never had the privilege of playing with Baltar. Scum got the upper edge since the beginning of day 2. If a great player is scum, god help us. But I cannot base my play on meta-related paranoia.

Corollary(2): the werewolfe vs mallow problem becomes now fashionable again, as vollkan gives 7 scumpoints to PO for his choice. I am a bit surprise. 7 points seem to make a big difference in vollkan's system, and PO never changed her version of the facts. Did vollkan really not notice the voting activity by PO?

Vollkan: it is also interesting how you suddenly give scumpoints to PO. Myk is the first who actually builds a real case on PO. And "sieht an, sieht an", you come back to game and give her scumpoints...
I re-read the catch-up posts by vollkan, PO/consig is never really considered. The only thing vollkan really writes about them is that consig was a convenient vote for a scum-lew. I think PO is now a convenient target for scumpoints.

smash: your post 483 is confusing as hell. You name 4 players who should be town. I totally disagree on vollkan. I do not have towntells from him. I am not sure about Thad. I agree on PO. I do not trust you. I do not like the way you vote a player who just replaced in. Your post looks like a chaotic attempt at generating confusion. Which may be done in case you get lynched before replacing out... in order to put the ones you name as townies in a terrible light tomorrow. Scummy, scummy, scummy.

We had a 1vs1 situation. We haven't it anymore. How come? It could have been good for town. If we lynch smash and smash flips town, I will have to ignore his chaotic 483 and look back at the game, and it wil lbe hard to convince me that DJ is not scum. And this also works the other way round...

All in all, I feel I like a smash lynch better. While I was on V/LA, Dj got at L-1 very quickly. This invalidates my analysis of the smash-BW: both BW's were very quick. The one on smash was justified, after all, by a proposal of a voting block, which is a practice Dj also uses as town.

implosion is scummy. But he did not post enough, so his lynch would provide us with less information than a smash one. And smash is scummy.

vote: smash

I apologise for my poor english. I am realy tired. Please let me know if anything is unclear.

[Gonzoooo]

Vote:smashbro

I'm not really a fan of following vollkan at this point...but I'm also not a fan of following smash and implosion either. Out of the three leading wagons, this seems the most generally agreeable to everyone and it will be informative. Deadline tomorrow, let's get it done people.

[Purple Orange]

Worst things I can see against Smash

* He moves off of mallow right as the wagon starts to maybe pick up steam. See also the contradiction in his reasons for voting for wolf.

Really

don't like this. It shot down most of the benefit of the doubt I was giving him for being straightforward town who'd made some poor moves, patiently trying to explain over and over again why he did what he did.
* His votes on consig and wolf happen late in the wagons. (I see nothing inherently wrong with moving his vote to other people he suspected while continuing to voice his suspicion of mallow. The iffy part about it is that he hops on so late to two popular wagons, simply sheeping everyone else's suspicions. This is hard for me to get around).
* He jumps on wolf for doing the exact same he did himself -- moving his vote to the more likely of his suspects to be lynched. Or he just flat out doesn't comprehend what wolf was doing.
* Bad case on DJ. When have we seen a GOOD case today?

My gut said town, based on tone of his posts (see first bullet point - was reading him as straightforward town when I ISO'd him today), lotta his actions say otherwise. :/ (Gonz - you referenced smash as sounding like "not the sharpest hammer in the box" - were you getting some of this, too?) Also not sold on either 226 or 235 being proofs of scumminess...I don't see him as sneaky enough scum to try to look town by opposing a quick wagon in 226, and 235 I can read as just confused.

Worst stuff from DJ

* defensiveness
* votes with no reasons (though possibly NULL here)
* I don't like all this unreadable NULL stuff.

Vote: Smash

Slightly more comfortable with this at the moment than a DJ lynch, but seriously not by much. Your push of the voting block is what's holding me back. :/

Revised

:
Willing to vote for: Implo, DJ, myk, Smash. Willing to hammer any of these. (DJ and Smash will give the most info of these, speaking in purely pragmatic terms).
Not interested today: lew, Thad, Gonz, volk

[Purple Orange]

And that's

L-1

, so careful.

[Gonzoooo]

Gonz - you referenced smash as sounding like "not the sharpest hammer in the box" - were you getting some of this, too?

Yes, big time. I'm not going to be surprised at all if smash is a complete VI and flips town here, but we need a lynch today and getting rid of his slot isn't the

worst

thing that could happen today. I'd still prefer to lynch dj, but I highly doubt enough people are going to support that at this juncture.

I don't get why your reads changed, but we can discuss tomorrow if we're both alive I guess.

[Purple Orange]

Gonz - you referenced smash as sounding like "not the sharpest hammer in the box" - were you getting some of this, too?

Yes, big time. I'm not going to be surprised at all if smash is a complete VI and flips town here, but we need a lynch today and getting rid of his slot isn't the

worst

thing that could happen today. I'd still prefer to lynch dj, but I highly doubt enough people are going to support that at this juncture.

I don't get why your reads changed, but we can discuss tomorrow if we're both alive I guess.

I don't like going with gut reads, and the darn meta stuff made me have second thoughts about DJ -- things I thought I could peg as scum turned pretty null, and then there's the voting-block thing, which he hasn't used as scum (yet). (see my VI post, when I stick you and smash up top). :/ It's been hard for me to pin anything solid on him -- "higher proportion of defensiveness" is about the best I've got, and how much I'm persuaded by that varies. I also didn't like the (at least seeming) contradiction Smash has up there in his last post...that lost him a lot of good faith in my eyes. I really want to hear an answer from him there.

If you want to switch over to DJ, though, I will have no problem at all going there. If he's scum, he is certainly more dangerous scum than Smash is, and the sooner he's out of the way and not distracting the town with cloggy quote walls the better. He's also talked a lot more today, I believe drawing in more connections and whatnot than smash has.

Last night, when I ISO'd smash, he seemed to be yelling town from ingame. DJ I had to do meta stuff on to even get null, and I disliked him on my reread. Again, though, I don't like gut reads. :/

[don_johnson]

whatever. deadlines in a few hours.

unvote, vote: smash

lots of lurking going on and i think gonzo points out a good thing here on volkans smash vote. if smash is town, vig should not shoot. but whatever.

[Alduskkel]

Final Vote Count

smashbro_of_the_SSS (5) - vollkan, lewarcher82, Gonzoooo, Purple Orange, don_johnson
don_johnson (1) - implosion
Purple Orange (1) - mykonian
mykonian (1) - smashbro_of_the_SSS

Not Voting (1) - ThAdmiral

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 13th, PST.

[Alduskkel]

smashbro_of_the_SSS,

Mafia Jailkeeper

, was lynched Day 2.

It is now Night 2. Mafia may begin to night talk and all roles with night actions should send me them by the end of December 15th, PST.

P.S. I definitely have not been misspelling smashbro_of_the_SSS's name the entire game.

[Alduskkel]

lewarcher82,

Vanilla Townie

, was killed Night 2.

mykonian,

Vanilla Townie

, was killed Night 2.

It is now Day 3. With 6 alive it is 4 to lynch.

There was no leftover time from Yesterday. The deadline Today is set for the end of December 29th, PST.