Mini 1091 Mafia Mania -- Game Over

[moose200x]

Hi broken!

[Hiraki]

I need one more day. Today is too hectic, but trust me, if content doesn't come by tomorrow, you can label me as actively lurking.

[brokenscraps]

Okay, these are just the unordered thoughts I have after reading through the thread...

I didn't really find moose scummy in that their posting could very easily (and I think likely does) come from a town player who often slips into poor play. The main reason I feel he can feel/be anti-town is that his posts are so chaotic at times that is almost impossible to try and work out what sort of thought processes and motivations are behind them, which isn't exactly helpful when working out motivations for actions is one of the main aspects of scumhunting.

moose: please fully claim, your non-specific power role claim doesn't really help anyone right now, one of the main reason I can think to not fully claim is that you haven't got a decent lie; if you are telling the truth about your PR it isn't a good look, you already look bad enough from claiming when you probably shouldn't have.

I've noticed some players seem to want moose dead as a policy lynch; I don't think this'd be a very good idea, firstly I don't think he is as malicious as the targets of policy lynches tend to have to be and is not as big a threat to the town (he is, I think, also capable of much better play than currently shown), secondly I don't think we would gain nearly as much information from a moose lynch than we would from some other lynches, more on this later. (Also there is the whole power role claim, but I'm going to wait for more to go on here)

Some things made Hiraki look fairly anti-town as I read through the thread: the weird opinions expressed on lots of pretty pointless seeming, often theoretical, bits of the game (RVS, pressure, FoS), the relative lack of cohesive cases against players considering his expression of so many strong opinions on presently irrelevant topics, and the constant introduction of relativity into his posts ("that might be true for you, but it isn't true for me"; generally your use of this pretty silly, a lot less of these things are as relative as you seem to think they are). Would be interested to know if other players consider this more poor town play or scummy play, I'm having a hard time working out.

I'm liking the beefster wagon at the moment, I think I'll leave my predecessor's vote there for now. The way he targeted boberz really rubbed me the wrong way, don't think he has contributed much to the town, and there are some interesting relationship between beefster and some other players that I've noticed which could be very revealing depending on how he flips, will look into in these (and hopefully other) relationships in more detail after a nice sleep, I feel thats an aspect that hasn't been looked into as much this game.

[boberz]

All the stuff you said about hiraki was scummy.

Something is off with the beefster wagon, cant fathom itreally. I need to reread the game already.

[Beefster]

moose: please fully claim, your non-specific power role claim doesn't really help anyone right now, one of the main reason I can think to not fully claim is that you haven't got a decent lie; if you are telling the truth about your PR it isn't a good look, you already look bad enough from claiming when you probably shouldn't have.

There's no need for him to claim at this point. He's softclaimed a power role and that's enough. I just want him to stop his "I hate having a power role" crap. If he hates it so bad, why doesn't he replace out instead of screwing with the game?

I've noticed some players seem to want moose dead as a policy lynch; I don't think this'd be a very good idea, firstly I don't think he is as malicious as the targets of policy lynches tend to have to be and is not as big a threat to the town (he is, I think, also capable of much better play than currently shown), secondly I don't think we would gain nearly as much information from a moose lynch than we would from some other lynches, more on this later. (Also there is the whole power role claim, but I'm going to wait for more to go on here)

This reads to me as buddying. Also, why do you care so much that he claims? You don't think he's scummy; there is no good reason for him to claim.

Some things made Hiraki look fairly anti-town as I read through the thread: the weird opinions expressed on lots of pretty pointless seeming, often theoretical, bits of the game (RVS, pressure, FoS), the relative lack of cohesive cases against players considering his expression of so many strong opinions on presently irrelevant topics, and the constant introduction of relativity into his posts ("that might be true for you, but it isn't true for me"; generally your use of this pretty silly, a lot less of these things are as relative as you seem to think they are). Would be interested to know if other players consider this more poor town play or scummy play, I'm having a hard time working out.

This looks like an excuse to fencesit for a while. What do

you

think?

I'm liking the beefster wagon at the moment, I think I'll leave my predecessor's vote there for now. The way he targeted boberz really rubbed me the wrong way, don't think he has contributed much to the town, and there are some interesting relationship between beefster and some other players that I've noticed which could be very revealing depending on how he flips, will look into in these (and hopefully other) relationships in more detail after a nice sleep, I feel thats an aspect that hasn't been looked into as much this game.

Are there any other accusations you'd like to bring to the table?

VOTE: brokenscraps

BTW: I'm done warming up. I can be serious now.

[Beefster]

All the stuff you said about hiraki was scummy.

Something is off with the beefster wagon, cant fathom itreally. I need to reread the game already.

Could it be that you realized I'm town?

[brokenscraps]

There's no need for him to claim at this point. He's softclaimed a power role and that's enough. I just want him to stop his "I hate having a power role" crap. If he hates it so bad, why doesn't he replace out instead of screwing with the game?

This reads to me as buddying. Also, why do you care so much that he claims? You don't think he's scummy; there is no good reason for him to claim.

I'm just going to really hope moose isn't a vanilla townie making a fakeclaim or that he isn't exaggerating his PR's significance, as I read in this thread that he showed regret for doing this in another game.

If he is really a town power role the scum already know that he isn't a scum player, that he is the only claimed power role and that his power role is apparently very useful to the town. The exact details of his power aren't too important, already they know he would be a good target for killing off.

If he is scum making a fakeclaim, however, then we are losing a lot of potentially useful information that denies us the opportunity to scrutinize and test his claims. Being able to just claim PR makes it too easy for scum.

So if he is town we won't lose anything from a full claim, and if he is scum his claim will be much easier to check, so I think that now that a soft claim has been made there is good reason for a full one.

You've changed your mind very quickly as well:

Just let me do my thing for one night and if I am alive you lynch me fast. No argument from me.

Cut the crap. What are you hiding?

Right here you seem to call for more claiming from moose. Whatever opinions suits the lynch you're looking for, eh?

This looks like an excuse to fencesit for a while. What do

you

think?

Fair enough. It comes off to me much more as always playing that way both judging from a quick glance at his previous games and the general read I get of his motivations this game, so more as anti-town than scummy. Now using previous bad play to justify current bad play creates a general site meta of encouraging bad play, so I don't think it's good to use this to clear him, and if boberz and anyone else in favor of a Hiraki lynch can provide a stronger case (mainly who do you think his scum partners are?) then I would be paying much more attention.

Are there any other accusations you'd like to bring to the table?

While reading the thread it seemed like there was some time of connection between you and Mariyta, I would see this as a possible scum team.

I found Mariyta's vote on boberz fairly odd. Same post she seems to want to put a vote on moose but doesn't because that would put him at l-2 (it would actually put him at l-3, but that is neither here nor there); I don't think a quick lynch was a reasonable threat here, and if you really thought he was the scummiest why wouldn't you want to vote him? Later in the game you would write:

Why should I vote the person I feel is the lesser scum just because he has the wagon?

Why should you vote for someone you consider the lesser scum just because they don't have a wagon? Trying to get votes on somebody else would only distract from moose. The overreacting charge seems a very weak reason for voting for boberz here.

So I found this vote odd straight away, and it really set alarm bells off when beefster, with his first actual game post, voted for boberz with almost the exact same reason (switching from overreacting to Hiraki to overdefensive to Hiraki). Of course it seems odd that scum would play together like this, but there doesn't seem to be any intention from beefsters of creating a connection between him and Mariyta shown in the post, just a mutual attempt to start a boberz bandwagon for fairly weak (and similar) reasons.

Mariyta's later posts show some signs of too strong attempt to separate herself from beefster:

-Her post fourth post is fairly odd: boberz has made both one of the scummiest comments and isn't very scummy, and the attacks on boberz by beefster are ridiculous despite her being the source of the attacks main argument (overreaction/defense) and maintaining that the overreaction is one of the scummiest things so far. She then claims beefster as her second scum pick despite not really providing a case against him, although she doesn't place a vote on him (2nd scum pick seems a pretty easy way to bus without much consequence). The case against LC is also pretty weak, seeing as a large number of players had been fairly inactive at that time and she doesn't provide much to differentiate him from them. The lack of posts is perhaps suspicious, but to have that alone as your reasoning for top scum pick?

-Her vote on beefster has been provided with little reason; yes he was her second scum pick, but could we get some of the reasons why? The ones given don't seem very strong. It only places him as l-4, so I could see it as bussing; I could also see it as an unfortunate (for her) combination of her previous placing of beefster as a second scum pick for bussing purposes and the common procedure of cleaning the slate a little for replacements.

@beefster: mind outlining the case against me?

[Substrike22]

@ Mod, requesting V/LA 2-4 days. Probably won't need it, but I'm moving home from university for winter break and I may not have a place to set up my computer with internet right away, but I'll try. This is just a precaution so I don't get replaced.

Also if anyone sees me "browsing" the forum during this time, it'll be on my smartphone, and I'm not trying to post a case on someone with a touchscreen, sorry. Not to mention that I'm pretty ok with my vote at this point. Gonna have to read brokenscraps' walls of text here before I get a good post up... will be coming as soon as the computer is set back up.

[Ant_to_the_max]

So, this is were my inexperience kinda pops up.
I wasn't sure if the Moose thing should have been pursued or not...

Big thing I am waiting for now is this

You've changed your mind very quickly as well:

Just let me do my thing for one night and if I am alive you lynch me fast. No argument from me.

Cut the crap. What are you hiding?

Right here you seem to call for more claiming from moose. Whatever opinions suits the lynch you're looking for, eh?

[Dekes]

@Substrike
Reading is tech.
I used the mighty word "if" regarding any possible vig. If you want data, I just checked the last 5 completed mini normals, and three of them had (One-Shot) vigs. In any case, I was merely pointing out that moose had been not productive for town and yet not remarkably scummy and those people are usually better vig targets than lynch targets.


Moose's softclaim episode was just ugh. Dude, you really oughta smoke some pot before visiting this site to calm the hell down. There was no need at all to softclaim there. Enough people were clearly against your lynch.
I personally believe the softclaim but anything beyond that about how poweful that role is seems like some poor gambiting by moose. In any case, we should know more tomorrow.

@AntB
Do you have any other suspects? You seem to be hardcore deadset on moose and moose only. Tunneling is not a scumtell at all, but you should try looking at the bigger picture and ponder every possibility like moose being town. Who else do you find suspicious?


Don't like boberz' latest lazy behaviour. Since his latest wall o' text post mainly with Hiraki all he did was giving out some snarky one-liner opinions without backing any of them up.
If you think Hiraki is scum, then present a solid case and I'll look into it. I don't know about the others, but I began skimming over Hiraki and your wall o' text wars after a while. And unless one of you flips or comes on my scum list I'm not interested at all in seeing who's winning the "Is an FOS a scumtell or not"-debate.

And finally,

Unvote; Vote: Beefster

Yep, I know I said Beefster was town. But that was based on the fact that Substrike (one of my suspect) had Lord Chronos (my other suspect), Beefster and moose as suspects and yet decided to avoid the Beefster wagon (where LC was on) and LC and instead went moose - me - moose. But now that brokenscraps has somehwat redeemed LC, it seems that LC was rather disinterested in the game than scummily lurking. So that voids my theory of Substrike avoiding a wagon where his partner is on if brokenscraps is town.

Beefster's discrepancy between saying "moose has to fullclaim now" and "there's no point for moose to claim" within two posts is just too hard to overlook. I'll look into Beefster later for more, but the vote seems good for now.

Also, I'm sick at looking at the moose wagon. Too bad a Substrike wagon wouldn't liff off. With the only person softclaiming moose has painted a bull's eye on his back anyway, and even if not, dude said, he could prove himself tomorrow. So what exactly is there to gain if we lynch him today?

[boberz]

I dont like linking cases day 1. Because simply put, they dont work.

I am now rereading.

[AntB]

@Dekes
I try and avoid tunneling where possible, and I have considered moose as town and given him the benefit of doubt which he quickly blew to bits.

Beefster seems a bit fishy at the moment, nothing viscous enough to warrant my vote (for now), however, I can see what the bandwagon is getting at.
boberz seems to be a little bit of everywhere at the moment, but I have little more than a null on him for now.
Hiraki also seems a bit fishy at the moment, nothing really more than gut though.

[Mariyta]

I found Mariyta's vote on boberz fairly odd. Same post she seems to want to put a vote on moose but doesn't because that would put him at l-2 (it would actually put him at l-3, but that is neither here nor there); I don't think a quick lynch was a reasonable threat here, and if you really thought he was the scummiest why wouldn't you want to vote him?

When someone is L-2, quick lynch is always possible, and I don't like putting someone that close to lynch that early in the game. We would lose a lot of information to end the game that quickly.

Later in the game you would write:

Why should I vote the person I feel is the lesser scum just because he has the wagon?

Why should you vote for someone you consider the lesser scum just because they don't have a wagon? Trying to get votes on somebody else would only distract from moose. The overreacting charge seems a very weak reason for voting for boberz here.

That comment had nothing to do with moose and boberz. It was about Lord Chronos and Beefster. But in regards to moose and boberz, I felt they were about equally scummy, whereas I found Lord Chronos to be clearly scummier than Beefster at the time.

So I found this vote odd straight away, and it really set alarm bells off when beefster, with his first actual game post, voted for boberz with almost the exact same reason (switching from overreacting to Hiraki to overdefensive to Hiraki). Of course it seems odd that scum would play together like this, but there doesn't seem to be any intention from beefsters of creating a connection between him and Mariyta shown in the post, just a mutual attempt to start a boberz bandwagon for fairly weak (and similar) reasons.

Beefster's reasons seemed to be [poorly] parroting mine, IMO. Yes, my initial reason for voting boberz was weak. It was page 2.

When someone says one thing pretty scummy, that doesn't mean they're scum. Boberz' play for the most part has been decent. I think my case on Lord Chronos was good enough to warrant a vote. And continually trying to link beefster with me is just poor play. First, w/o flips, linking two people is practically useless. Second, the "links" you are making are weak, at best. There is no connection between us, aside from the fact that I listed him as second on a scum list where your predecessor came first. This attempt to link pre-flip seems to be a plague on MS lately.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.08

Beefster - 4 - brokenscraps, Ant_to_the_max, Mariyta, Dekes
moose200x - 3 - Hiraki, Substrike22, AntB
Ant_to_the_max - 1 - Mr Wright
brokenscraps - 1 - Beefster
Hiraki - 1 - boberz
Substrike22 - 1 - Lateralus22

Not Voting: moose200x

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: December 28

V/LA: Substrike22, through Sunday (....if I can count to four properly)

[Beefster]

There's no need for him to claim at this point. He's softclaimed a power role and that's enough. I just want him to stop his "I hate having a power role" crap. If he hates it so bad, why doesn't he replace out instead of screwing with the game?

This reads to me as buddying. Also, why do you care so much that he claims? You don't think he's scummy; there is no good reason for him to claim.

I'm just going to really hope moose isn't a vanilla townie making a fakeclaim or that he isn't exaggerating his PR's significance, as I read in this thread that he showed regret for doing this in another game.

If he is really a town power role the scum already know that he isn't a scum player, that he is the only claimed power role and that his power role is apparently very useful to the town. The exact details of his power aren't too important, already they know he would be a good target for killing off.

If he is scum making a fakeclaim, however, then we are losing a lot of potentially useful information that denies us the opportunity to scrutinize and test his claims. Being able to just claim PR makes it too easy for scum.

So if he is town we won't lose anything from a full claim, and if he is scum his claim will be much easier to check, so I think that now that a soft claim has been made there is good reason for a full one.

Nice WIFOM.
If he has a powerrole, like he's softclaimed, it would be worse. He'll just get nightkilled.

You've changed your mind very quickly as well:

Just let me do my thing for one night and if I am alive you lynch me fast. No argument from me.

Cut the crap. What are you hiding?

Right here you seem to call for more claiming from moose. Whatever opinions suits the lynch you're looking for, eh?

It does look like that. It was a rhetorical question I used to emphasize cutting the crap.

This looks like an excuse to fencesit for a while. What do

you

think?

Fair enough. It comes off to me much more as always playing that way both judging from a quick glance at his previous games and the general read I get of his motivations this game, so more as anti-town than scummy. Now using previous bad play to justify current bad play creates a general site meta of encouraging bad play, so I don't think it's good to use this to clear him, and if boberz and anyone else in favor of a Hiraki lynch can provide a stronger case (mainly who do you think his scum partners are?) then I would be paying much more attention.

Your argument looks awfully inconclusive. How 'bout a one word answer? (anti-town?, scummy?, neutral?)

Are there any other accusations you'd like to bring to the table?

While reading the thread it seemed like there was some time of connection between you and Mariyta, I would see this as a possible scum team.

I found Mariyta's vote on boberz fairly odd. Same post she seems to want to put a vote on moose but doesn't because that would put him at l-2 (it would actually put him at l-3, but that is neither here nor there); I don't think a quick lynch was a reasonable threat here, and if you really thought he was the scummiest why wouldn't you want to vote him? Later in the game you would write:

Why should I vote the person I feel is the lesser scum just because he has the wagon?

Why should you vote for someone you consider the lesser scum just because they don't have a wagon? Trying to get votes on somebody else would only distract from moose. The overreacting charge seems a very weak reason for voting for boberz here.

I'm not seeing how this proves your argument.

@beefster: mind outlining the case against me?

-You asked for an unnecessary full claim.
-Possible buddying with moose, which is strange considering you want him to claim.
-fence sitting
-WIFOM

[Beefster]

Unvote; Vote: Beefster

Yep, I know I said Beefster was town. But that was based on the fact that Substrike (one of my suspect) had Lord Chronos (my other suspect), Beefster and moose as suspects and yet decided to avoid the Beefster wagon (where LC was on) and LC and instead went moose - me - moose. But now that brokenscraps has somehwat redeemed LC, it seems that LC was rather disinterested in the game than scummily lurking. So that voids my theory of Substrike avoiding a wagon where his partner is on if brokenscraps is town.

Beefster's discrepancy between saying "moose has to fullclaim now" and "there's no point for moose to claim" within two posts is just too hard to overlook. I'll look into Beefster later for more, but the vote seems good for now.

I said "What are you hiding?" not "CLAIM PLZ". It was a rhetorical question.

Also, I'm sick at looking at the moose wagon. Too bad a Substrike wagon wouldn't liff off. With the only person softclaiming moose has painted a bull's eye on his back anyway, and even if not, dude said, he could prove himself tomorrow. So what exactly is there to gain if we lynch him today?

Absolutely nothing. Chances are the mafia will kill him anyway.

[Beefster]

Also @Dekes, your reason behind voting me is kinda convoluted. Care to use logic?

[Lateralus22]

Gotta catch up later, on skim two things. Why does Beefster assume scum will automatically nk moose? A similar situation has happened before personally and it was devastating for the town.

Moose is not playing to his to his town meta, he has done NOTHING this whole game.

[Beefster]

Gotta catch up later, on skim two things. Why does Beefster assume scum will automatically nk moose? A similar situation has happened before personally and it was devastating for the town.

Isn't that kind of the idea? The mafia will do the action worst for the town, because it's best for them. It's just how they roll.

Moose is not playing to his to his town meta, he has done NOTHING this whole game.

So he's lurking. Big deal. It's Christmas time. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone got prodded by New Year.

[Ant_to_the_max]

Gotta catch up later, on skim two things. Why does Beefster assume scum will automatically nk moose? A similar situation has happened before personally and it was devastating for the town.

Isn't that kind of the idea? The mafia will do the action worst for the town, because it's best for them. It's just how they roll.

WIFOM_to_the_max right there >_>
Just got home from work so I just skimmed things for now and just wanted to say that right now

[Nobody Special]

Searching for a replacement for Hiraki, per his request.

[Mariyta]

Gotta catch up later, on skim two things. Why does Beefster assume scum will automatically nk moose? A similar situation has happened before personally and it was devastating for the town.

Isn't that kind of the idea? The mafia will do the action worst for the town, because it's best for them. It's just how they roll.

WIFOM_to_the_max right there >_>
Just got home from work so I just skimmed things for now and just wanted to say that right now

/agree

And the whole "It's Christmas. Of course he's lurking" is lame. Christmas isn't for another week.

[brokenscraps]

Your argument looks awfully inconclusive. How 'bout a one word answer? (anti-town?, scummy?, neutral?)

Anti-town, but if there was a stronger case on Hiraki it would be a sign of scumminess. If, for example, his replacement act in an anti-town that would definitely be worth looking into.

[Beefster]

@broken: Thanks for being concise. I really hate it when people dance around the question. I prefer the format <Answer>- <Reason>.

Lurking isn't bad on its own. It's only when you lurk for 3 days, post some fluff, then lurk some more. That's bad. But lurklurklurkCONTENTlurklurklurk is okay. Obviously not preferable, but rarely deserving of a vote.
@Mariyta: some people are REALLY busy even a week before Christmas. How isn't that a legitimate excuse to lurk? (I'm using 'excuse' a bit loosely here)

[Nobody Special]

werewolf555 replaces Hiraki effective immediately!