Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[MagnaofIllusion]

Had to break up the post ... damn site limits.

The "It's not possible because that'd be too obvious" excuse for it not to be scummy? That's as assenine as me saying you just bussed your scumbuddy Pops to paint me scummy if he were to flip. If you find it to be blatant buddying, call it out; otherwise, just pointing it out like this is pretty meaningless to me. Not to mention the fact that it looks like fakehunting.

This is a relational observation. It’s something I look for in a Mafia game. Don’t really care if it is meaningless to you. As I said, you were so blatant in your /barning of Pops that you are very unlikely to be scum of the same faction (if we have multiples as Pops has suggested). Are you suggesting you would be dumb enough to buddy a scum-partner so blantantly?

And use of fake-hutning 1.

No, actually, that's called pressure. On top of a meek point -- is your scumdar supposed to make me crack under the pressure of your fakehunting? Stop acting like you're above the game and maybe I'll take you seriously, guy.

So mindlessly jumping on the wagon is your standard of voting? Gotcha, more on this later in your comments.

Also, please elaborate on why you felt the need to make a disconnected personal attack. I’d like to know how I’m ‘acting above the game’ by suspecting you.

Fake-hunting use number 2 in said post noted.

No, it's not. Congratulations. Note that I wasn't scumhunting in that particular portion, though, as there was still much interest in the Tree Stump ability and exactly how it worked.

Um what? Why post a dismissive statement about the Longing if you didn’t have a scum-hunting motive?

This seems to be your only point of half-validity. I've got to ask, though... if you had so much of a firm belief that it was as you say, why not supply the hard copy?

And here's why. Obviously we were still discussing the Stump. The rest of this particular post is answering a question Lateralus had posed to anyone who wished to respond, then me finishing with an inquiry in response. Is this the greatest post in the history of mafia? Certainly not, but this is a very poor example of you trying to pair me with something that might actually be scummy in Narsis.

Really … how is the following portion of that post not exactly as I described.

Helghast, on the other hand, just seems scummy. But I can't pinpoint anything scummy (that hasn't already been addressed) and I hate parrots, so I've yet to give my full read on that situation and I will continue to play it by ear

You specifically say Helghast is scummy but you can’t actually show why. Regardless of who you were talking to you just did exactly what Narsis did.

Obviously you're strawmanning and now tunneling so hard on me with your fakehunting fakepressure that you fail to read the post correctly.

- Finding someone to act in a scummy manner isn't enough to vote them as you may just be misinterpreting what's being said, nor was Parama's oversight enough to vote for him either. So yes, dodging a question gets a FoS and not a vote. Personally, now I can see where he's coming from.

I’m straw-manning? How so? Did you not unvote and specifically say two other people were scummy in the same post without revoting? Seems pretty inconsistent that you were so careful with your vote here but easily bandwagonned someone (Wrathchild) that you had expressed zero suspicion of before hoping on the wagon following Parama’s lead for ‘pressure’. Why didn’t you ‘pressure’ either of your scum candidates? You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

How can I possibly be tunnelling? Do you, who lives by the Wiki, not know that tunnelling involves only looking at one person AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL OTHERS? You can hardly claim that is the case here.

Honestly the whole first sentence looks like Wiki-buzzword-bingo. Do you think that throwing Wiki-fallacies around when they are not even relavant makes your defense stronger?

3rd specific notice of the use of fake-hunting. Appeal to repetition (which, again, you should know from your Bible) much?

But you've earned my vote with your over-the-top reaction combined with the scummy behavior I've already demonstrated.

VOTE: chkflp

Remember, don't crack under the pressure ... again.

[SnakePlissken]

I am completely lost in this game. I am considering requesting replacement.

[Nero Cain]

I am completely lost in this game. I am considering requesting replacement.

please do

[Powerrox93]

Why do you think he's town? There's gotta be a reason.

I've red and red his post many times now and I still cannot find one single scummy post made by him. Can someone please explain why Helghast is so scummy that he should be lynched?

[curiouskarmadog]

I am completely lost in this game. I am considering requesting replacement.

what is stopping you?

[Nero Cain]

Chainsawing- Player A defends Player B from Player C by accusing Player C of being scum.
Is a scumtell, but since A and B have to be scum together for it to be the case you usually wait for a flip.

Defending a player by explaining why the case is invalid is usually more what town defending town looks like.

But I don't see that kind of chainsaw that often. What I do see alot of is scumX attacks townY for accusing townZ of being scum.

The tree stump role needs to be gotten rid of, of this there can be no doubt. We can't lynch it. We can't rely an any plan to kill it overnight on the basis of a doc/roleblocker/redirector/etc and the fact that we don't even know if there is a town controlled nightkill. I think that we need to take care of it while we have a dayvig and we know where the stump role is because tomorrow (or some other day in the future) we may no longer have a dayvig and might for some reason be unable to find the tree stump. I therefore support diddin killing implosion for all that I don't particularly think that implosion himself is scum.

The fact that its essentially a voteless role

IS

a bummer and would deff be harmful to the town in end game but unkillable could be useful. So advocating getting rid of a role that couldn't be killed doesn't seem exactly pro-town to me.

++++assuming that implosion is telling the truth he's unkillable therefore Diddin's kill would not work. You JUST got done blastin' TMM for wanting a "no lynch" but you want a "no kill".

I did blast themanhimself for wanting a no lynch, which he deserved. I did not, at any time, advocate a "no-kill" on account of implosion having claimed to be unlynchable not unkillable. Point refuted

What do you think of tmh?

I haven't got any really scummy vibes from him but I don't like how Q21 blasted him for wanting a "no lynch" while he himself wanted a "no kill". So it made me think TMH might be town if Q21 flips scum.

Again, this based on a falsehood. He isn't directly calling me scum via that falsehood, but he is, obliquely at least, suggesting it.
And to preempt this question being redirected to me - as I will admit it rightly should be given my last two comments.

assuming that implosion is telling the truth he's unkillable therefore Diddin's kill would not work.

Not so. I believe that implosion has declared unlynchable, not unkillable.

Yeah yeah yeah. So I missed it. He clarified it. Why are you making it out into a big deal? And why are you not worried about CHK and I AM who supposedly missed it as well?

It was not something that was said and you failed to see, therefore stating that you missed it is incorrect. What you did was create, either consciously or subconsciously, the idea of implosion being unkillable by extrapolating inaccurately from what he did say. And then using that to imply that I am scummy.
As for I Am Innocent and chkflip, yes they both misunderstood the role, but not in the same manner you did - there misunderstanding is actually understandable as it is based on the way a treestump role often works. Also, they didn't use that misunderstanding to insinuate that someone else was scummy, which I feel you have done. I bringing up IAI and CHK I get the impression that you are trying to group yourself with other plays who you know are generally viewed as more townie than yourself in order to make your error seem less that is truly is.

I have to disagree here. I've never been in a game with a tree stump role so I had to look it up. The wiki says...I know Pops, Wiki isn't the Bible, but Wiki says unkillable so I took that as both. So that certianly shaped my impression of you, Q.

I have a treestump ability.

For today, I'm voteless and can't be lynched

.

red=part I saw; blue=part I missed. So yes I wasn't paying very close attenion. Sorry?

[SnakePlissken]

Mod Request Replacement

Vote MagnaofIllusion

[themanhimself]

I'm really wondering why diddin is procrastinating so much on this mod-kill, we've got a pretty solid consensus on like, 3 different people, what are you waiting for? I'm slightly worried that this is bussing on your part, trying to prevent having to kill some of your scumbuddies which is actually giving me a stronger read on the three in question. As for these wall-posts, guys, don't be afraid to summarize a little bit. I caved and re-read most of them, pretty much all of them could have been written in two paragraphs with about half the quotes and some of them we didn't even need at all. If the posts are getting so long that people are replacing out then we have a problem.

[Nero Cain]

Yes sorry about my wall TMH. I'm like you I don't understand whats taking so long. Wich why I asked if Diddin killed Muh.

I claim conditional dayvig. Now that the virus is active, I can "centralize" it on someone to get rid of it, killing the person. I am considering shooting WrathChild. Yay or nay?

It

SOUNDS

like it requires the virus and Muh was killed be the virus. Am I the only one thinking this?

IF

this is the case then Diddin gets major scum points for pretending like he still had a kill and leaving you with just over a week to discuss a lynch.

[Nero Cain]

That last scentence sould read.

IF

this is the case then Diddin gets major scum points for pretending like he still had a kill and leaving us with just over a week to discuss a lynch.

[The Eruci]

Replacement request noted. Looking for replacements for Helghast, EtherealCookie, and SnakePlissken currently.

[themanhimself]

I don't see it being likely that diddin was responsible for poor muh's death but I guess it's a possibility. I mean, why kill muh? And with Parama's story on top of it I just don't know about that.

[RedCoyote]

Doc protection might be the best thing that could happen, but

I don't want anything directed

in case of them having a role that can stalk or intercept

I feel like a

doctor-protected-semi-confirmed-town MoI

would be very beneficial to the town on D2

(emphasis added)

I knew something struck me as odd when I was skimming yesterday. Saint, what's up with these two positions? They seem very contraditory to me. Your whole discussion on Doctors period is icky feeling in general. You talk about it a lot. A whole lot.

I don't care to lynch diddin on d2 or d3 if we find out on d3 that he has passed his ability incorrectly, or in the d2 scenario if he has acted against the town's wishes.

It shouldn't be an absolute either way. Again, this whole train of thought of yours feels awkward and semi-forced. Like you want to be on record as having defended diddin as early as possible should anyone want to push him. I don't like this.

---

Fencesitting is a scum-tell. When fence-sitting you are establishing a position that can be used to argue that you were correct on an issue at a later date, regardless of which way the issue fell.

I don't remember if I addressed this to you or not, but I want to make it known that, one, I agree with you that fencesitting is a scumtell, and two, I dispute your label of me as fencesitting with regard to WC. I had no issue with diddin's attack that WC shouldn't have unvoted without revoting, but, aside from that, I didn't think it really applied to WC very well. WC actually may not have known better. Vi has called me on this before, and I didn't really get it the first time I was accused either. I get it now, which is why I think the attack is valid (yet it wouldn't apply to WC necessarily because of the history I just told you about). I know this sounds like doubletalk, but I'm really not intentionally trying to do that.

If it's any consolation, I've, slowly but surely, begun to lose any town-inklings I once had with WC and have now moved from the category of, "I'll speak on WC's behalf", to, "I could really care less if he was the vig shot".

1. EC is not a lurker and I don’t see how you attempt to classify him as such.
2. Regardless of how many posts Lateralus has made since replacing in when Pops made her lurker-vote Longing had between 2 and 4 posts. You can’t say give Pops credit for pushing on an active player when the activity came after the push. The fact that Pops has agree that she was lurker hunting makes this particular part of the argument by you confusing to me.
3. You are mis-repping my position. I stated that all four of my suspects would be good Vig targets (as I think all are scummy). I stated the Narsis was the best of the four due to low activity. If you disagree that Vigging scummy players with low activity is better than Vigging scummy players who post a lot (and therefore are more likely to slip / respond when questioned) we have a difference of opinion.
4. If it was hypocritical I’d be voting for Narsis. I’m not voting for the ‘lurker’. I’m voting for Pops, the active scum.

1. In Mafia, like most things in life, you always have to ask, "what have you done for me/us lately?" EC was indeed fairly active as the game opened up, but he has since began to lurk. So, yeah, I dispute that Longing is more of a lurker than EC at this point.
2. I'm not necessarily saying Longing is an active player. I just don't think EC and especially not Narsis would qualify as active either.
3. This doesn't apply. You came at pops for his attacking lurkers, among other things. You are attacking lurkers. Period.
4. Fair enough, but, again, one of the reasons you're voting pops is because of his focus on Longing. Unless you concede that point, it doesn't matter that you're not voting Narsis in my eyes.

---

I still doesn't see how Helghast is scummy.

This is the second time you come to bat for Helghast. I explained my vote pretty clearly (as have others), so, I think the burden is on you to come up with a better wagon or defend Helghast against what I've had to say (similar to what Magna just did).

---

This is one of the things that bugs me about the general site meta here; after so much stuff happens, neutral reads are seemingly not allowed.

If you don't have at least an idea about a player that has made a decent number of posts, then, yeah, that's not too good. I agree with implosion here. Now if you want to qualify your opinion, that's a whole 'nother thing, and it's quite acceptable (I do it all the time).

In response to the sudden interest in vigging EC: wtf? why?

Why not? His position on Parama was extremely peculiuar. I mean, I think it's deserved enough. That doesn't mean that others shouldn't be acceptable, but EC is a good choice nevertheless.

---

Vig a noob or hang diddin.

Why is it that, despite your excessive amount of rhetoric, I feel like you are totally removed from this game? Like, I don't feel like you are a part of the town in the sense that I feel like you are on some island somewhere with a megaphone. Do you get what I'm saying?

Anyways, this statement is absolutely ridiculous and I dare you to try and defend it. "Vig a noob"? I mean, really? Do you stand by this?

---

Also, does anyone think the Day Vig ability is something that should stay in the game?

Yes, absolutely. Although having it outted puts a kind of unsatisfactory spin on the whole thing. Vigilantes keep scum scared. They don't want to be shot out of the blue. It causes them to be more careful about what they say and do, and, theoretically, should make it easier to catch them.

---

I really like Lateralus' post 531 and generaly like him much better than I did Longing.

---

I must pint out that I take exception to this, I was V/LA and had announced such in thread, quite clearly.

I didn't realize that. I don't go back to check on V/LA's usually. For what it's worth, I like these two posts of yours with one caveat... Why did you not talk about Helghast at all? You addressed almost everything besides that.

---

Yay or Nay about the vig timing guys?

It needs to be doen ASAP. I don't get the hold up.

---

I still cannot see why Helghast is so scummy.

Alright, I'm done with you at the moment. This is absolutely ridiculous. This is too half-assed, too whiney, and too defensive to be town at this point. This is the third time in a row Power has made the same lame attempt and shouting down the Helghast wagon without anything of substance. Other players have given actualy reasons for not supporting Helghast as a lynch/shot candidate (Magna, NC), but Power hasn't.

Vig: Power

, and, at the rate he's going, he can expect and actual vote from me soon enough.

---

Darla is a good lynch candidate for today based on that last post.

Seems people have forgotten that my vig shot isn't what the game revolves around. We have a LYNCH VOTE too and we should use that just as much.

Wow, diddin... it's the first townie thing you've said all game.

I agree 100%. As much as I'd like to defend my fellow Texan (thanks for replacing, btw, Darla), I don't much care for the hesitation in actual voting. Especially after she told us that she had a whole WordPad full of analysis that got lost. I don't dispute that she did, but, if she did, she should have grounds to throw a vote down.

---

tl;dr

= Power, Darla, and Saint are worse. Lateralus, diddin (yeah, really), and q21 are better. diddin needs to shoot.

[popsofctown]

You don’t increase the amount of information available by directing the vig. It is just a shadow of the regular scum-hunting going on. Yet you do remove another level of information about a player by directing diddin's actions.

What is the difference in him voting someone for vigging and vigging that player himself?

If the reply is that he can vote someone for vigging he doesn't expect to die, look, that dynamic also affects everyone else in the town, to a diminished extent perhaps, but multiplied by many more players.

It doesn't have to be chkflip, but I'm pointing out that if you want one person to dictate who gets shot today so you can read that player, there's absolutely no reason you have to select diddin. You could select any other player, as a town tell diddin that he must kill whoever that player recommends, and both diddin and your nominee would have to do it on pain of death. If you really want to read people based on them killing, you should select the player you most want to read, at least. I personally want to read all of them with a second lynch.

Chainsawing- Player A defends Player B from Player C by accusing Player C of being scum.
Is a scumtell, but since A and B have to be scum together for it to be the case you usually wait for a flip.

Defending a player by explaining why the case is invalid is usually more what town defending town looks like.

But I don't see that kind of chainsaw that often. What I do see alot of is scumX attacks townY for accusing townZ of being scum.

The term doesn't apply to that, to the best of my knowledge. *shrug*

Yes sorry about my wall TMH. I'm like you I don't understand whats taking so long. Wich why I asked if Diddin killed Muh.

I claim conditional dayvig. Now that the virus is active, I can "centralize" it on someone to get rid of it, killing the person. I am considering shooting WrathChild. Yay or nay?

It

SOUNDS

like it requires the virus and Muh was killed be the virus. Am I the only one thinking this?

IF

this is the case then Diddin gets major scum points for pretending like he still had a kill and leaving you with just over a week to discuss a lynch.

Read the thread. Diddin's daykill ability never would have been usable if the hot potato never exploded. Once the hot potato exploded he became able to daykill.

I'm confused about what happens on subsequent days though. Is he going to pass it in an activated form with X charges of shooting left in it? That's my best understanding atm.



Powerrox's last defense of Helghast was ridiculous, but since it gains much more info based on Helghast's alignment and we know Helghast definitely has no powers (he preemptively claimed so, something that makes me find him scummy), I prefer Helghast be the one to die.

Vig: Helghast

(still)

[WrathChild]

I actually agree with RC that the Vig should happen sooner than later. I'm actually a bit concerned that Diddin is distracting from the focus on the Vig Shot. It seems pretty obvious that we need to:
1. Vig
2. Discuss results
3. Vote to Lynch

I'm not sure why non-vig votes are even close to the importance of vig votes at this point.

[q21]

I must pint out that I take exception to this, I was V/LA and had announced such in thread, quite clearly.

I didn't realize that. I don't go back to check on V/LA's usually. For what it's worth, I like these two posts of yours with one caveat... Why did you not talk about Helghast at all? You addressed almost everything besides that.

Question: Did you read my posts OR did you skim read my post? I ask because:

Since I think it would be remiss not to comment on the leading bandwagon of the moment: On my reread of the thread I kept seeing people pointing at Helgast as scummy without actually seeing a lot in the way of scumminess from him. It would be nice if he posts more in the way of reads and his reticence to vote is a little vexing but just as likely (if not moreso) to be a playstyle issue as a scumtell. Personally I think we, as a town would do better to lynch someone genuinely scummy (like Powerrox) that some who's only real fault is that they aren't playing particularly townie manner rather than that they're playing scummily.

Also, Powerrox's posts since my vote for him are scummy. He completely ignores my vote and the question asked of him by Magna and instead wastes his time with inane statements of Helgast's innocence. I mean, sure I don't find Helgast particularly scummy either, but simply saying you don't think he's scummy over and over again isn't going to achieve anything. Neither do I see anything to warrant such ardent defence of Helgast. Also, you've said that you want someone to explain why he's scummy, implying that you feel no case has been made against him... but before that you said that you didn't agree with the case against him.

[Lateralus22]

Vig Count 1.2

WrathChild:

Parama, Themanhimself, Diddin, popsofclown, powerrox93, I Am Innocent, themanhimself, Lateralus22, q21 (9)

EtherealCookie:

RedCoyote, Saint, I Am Innocent, MagnaofIllusion, themanhimself (5)

Helghast:

Lateralus22, popsofclown, didden, quadz08, themanhimself, WrathChild, Nero Cain, DarlaBlueEyes (8)

Nero Cain:

chkflip, quadz08 (2)

Narsis:

Saint, MagnaofIllusion (2)

themanhimself:

implosion, Lateralus22 (2)

popsofclown:

MagnaofIllusion, StrangerCoug, themanhimself (3)

chkflip:

MagnaofIllusion (1)

curiouskarmadog:

StrangerCoug, themanhimself (2)

Powerrox93:

quadz08, q21, Nero Cain, RedCoyote (4)

Saint:

quadz08 (1)

Parama:

curiouskarmadog (1)

DarlaBlueEyes:

Nero Cain (1)

*Hello let's get this vig thing over with already. Unofficial deadline around a weekish before deadline, considering no one's protested yet.
*If there's any errors point them out.

Wee. Diddin, I'd like you to vig someone between Jan 5-7, considering the flexible deadline for the day is the 13. (Actually the vig should be tomorrow at latest because that's about exactly one week.)

When the time comes, I'd like you to give a FULL read on your vig choice and who his flip will affect concerning what alignment he possibly is. I'd also like you now to announce the exact vig date, along with anyone who has objections with this set time to complain now.

[Lateralus22]

Vig Count 1.3

WrathChild:

Parama, Themanhimself, Diddin, popsofclown, powerrox93, I Am Innocent, Lateralus22, q21 (8)

EtherealCookie:

RedCoyote, Saint, I Am Innocent, MagnaofIllusion, themanhimself (5)

Helghast:

Lateralus22, popsofclown, didden, quadz08, themanhimself, WrathChild, Nero Cain, DarlaBlueEyes (8)

Nero Cain:

chkflip, quadz08 (2)

Narsis:

Saint, MagnaofIllusion (2)

themanhimself:

implosion, Lateralus22 (2)

popsofclown:

MagnaofIllusion, StrangerCoug, themanhimself (3)

chkflip:

MagnaofIllusion (1)

curiouskarmadog:

StrangerCoug, themanhimself (2)

Powerrox93:

quadz08, q21, Nero Cain, RedCoyote (4)

Saint:

quadz08 (1)

Parama:

curiouskarmadog (1)

DarlaBlueEyes:

Nero Cain (1)

*Hello let's get this vig thing over with already. Unofficial deadline around a weekish before deadline, considering no one's protested yet.
*If there's any errors point them out.

Wee. Diddin, I'd like you to vig someone between Jan 5-7, considering the flexible deadline for the day is the 13. (Actually the vig should be tomorrow at latest because that's about exactly one week.)

When the time comes, I'd like you to give a FULL read on your vig choice and who his flip will affect concerning what alignment he possibly is. I'd also like you now to announce the exact vig date, along with anyone who has objections with this set time to complain now.[/quote]

[Lateralus22]

Bleh. didn't delete out the extra shit and posted it.

Basically I saw that I had the manhimself listed twice for voting WC, meaning that the two are now tied. Neat. Anyone want to tip the scale?

[popsofctown]

I withdraw my Wrathchild vigavote

[StrangerCoug]

Why do you think he's town? There's gotta be a reason.

Power likes the chainsaw

What do you mean?

Chainsawing- Player A defends Player B from Player C by accusing Player C of being scum.
Is a scumtell, but since A and B have to be scum together for it to be the case you usually wait for a flip.

Defending a player by explaining why the case is invalid is usually more what town defending town looks like.

But I don't see that kind of chainsaw that often. What I do see alot of is scumX attacks townY for accusing townZ of being scum.

The only difference I see between what popsofctown is talking about and what you are talking about is the scumtell not working. Am I missing something important?

I'm really wondering why diddin is procrastinating so much on this mod-kill

Wait, diddin hacked into The Eruci's account!?

~Tags fixed. And I don't get hacked. Note: This is not an invitation to try.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Fix my tags please.

[Saint]

Red, Directing the doctor is more town or null imo , and is lynch diddin or wc that bad? Ppl are accusing, and I understand pressure as town is good.

[Saint]

Vig wc

[Saint]

Pops wc scum