Bomb Mafia -- Game Over

[AurorusVox]

/confirm

[AurorusVox]

I think a general plan of multiple laps with many hands sounds good (Jack's game of chicken with RC notwithstanding - by the way, what benefits do you see in this? Is it purely a balls of steel exercise?) Also if we keep track of who passes to who, we can potentially draw connections in who keeps bombs away from who. Not as easy but very useful in terms of drawing more complicated connections and patterns.

---

Coug: who said we're wasting the first two* passes? Whoever has the bomb should either pass it to Jack if they support his game, or hold onto it until they see something scummy.

*by first two, do you mean literally the first two passes, or the first 2/3 chances to pass that we get?

[AurorusVox]

Coug: who said we're wasting the first two* passes? Whoever has the bomb should either pass it to Jack if they support his game, or hold onto it until they see something scummy.

That's how I interpreted Hoopla's elaboration of hitorogoshi's plan. If I have it wrong, I need it straightened out—I foresaw the unlikelihood of doing player order after Day 1 working well, hence the way I worded my input.

*by first two, do you mean literally the first two passes, or the first 2/3 chances to pass that we get?

The first two out of three chances.

I think early bomb movement as RVS

will

end up wasting pass chances, but with a little restraint I don't see it being troublesome enough to warrant a plan that would render all early bomb movement useless. Also this would likely condemn the player immediately above the player who first receives the bomb and offer no information to go along with it. But I think Jack's right in that debating this too much in the open helps scum see what to do to blend in, so...

[AurorusVox]

I definitely agree with the second one there, it will give us a lot of information and make the exploding process more democratic as three players would have to pass someone the bomb to doom them.

Not necessarily. That's a slightly different rule. You could still keep passing it to the same person, so long as they didn't pass it to you:

A passes to B; B passes to C; C passes to A; A passes to B (rinse wash repeat)

To achieve the effect you're after, we'd have to say that you can only pass to each person once. I think that could end up handcuffing us in the longrun, though, so we'll have to see how the democracy of the bomb or otherwise plays out.

---

Saying no back and forth is okay in general but I think it needs to be relaxed in particular instances such as CCs etc.; or if we've decided someone

needs

to get blown up, not being able to "back and forth it" could put

unneccessary

hands on the bomb. If A realises that they're just getting the bomb given back to them from B, its their own fault for keep giving it back to B...

Also, you could say that passing a bomb straight back to someone

just because they passed it to you

constitutes OMGUS, and it can be treated as such. People who just pass it back to whoever gives it to them should get questioned and pushed on it regardless of whether we set up rules or not.

[AurorusVox]

CES: is your pass and vote an attempt at SpyreX's #76?

[AurorusVox]

No, AurorusVox, why would you think that?

Because you gave him the bomb and parked a vote there in the same post that you said it was worth threatening players with a lynch if they didn't hold the bomb. But thanks for clearing it up.

RE: Jack's claim, that makes sense along with his plan. He tried to get us to do it without outing himself as a PR, so I don't think AntB and Benmage can scold him for "risking" himself or it being a "horrendous" claim.

[AurorusVox]

Vote: danakillsu

Katsuki is blatant but Fate isn't?

[AurorusVox]

Hahaha. I call out a bandwagoner, and people vote me because I didn't vote another. To prove that had a scum motivation, you'd have to prove that Fate is scum. And he just passed the bomb to me, so us being scumpals doesn't exactly make sense. So the votes on me are pretty obviously not well thought out. On the other hand, voting Fate for his bandwagon vote would not be a problem with me in any way. It's just that Katsuki's was even worse.

Your poor response makes me happy with my vote.

- You may not have wanted to confront Fate so early on because you're worried he'd turn on you and pile the pressure on.
- You may have already discussed passing bombs to each other as a viable distancing tactic to use early on. Come back and tell me "he passed me the bomb" when you've got no passes left, then I might listen.
- Was Katsuki's worse purely by virtue of the timing? If Katsuki's is worse, why would you happily vote Fate?

[AurorusVox]

P.S. That was pretty hilarious.

^this a thousand times

Yeah, the red font and "goon," its pretty likely he was scum. An excellent start

[AurorusVox]

So Dana are you now claiming that you typo'd by not mentioning Fate in your votepost for Katsuki? Tbh, I also wouldn't have been surprised by a "oh no I only saw Katsuki's vote at the top of the page" mistake. But not this, it feels very fake.

Also, you now say their votes aren't the "same" building on your point that Katsuki's was "worse." You still haven't told me why if Katsuki's was "worse" you would "happily" have voted for Fate. You're saying on the one hand that these two votes are different, but then on the other you're saying that they're interchangeable. Your story isn't straight in the slightest.

w/r/t "I'll hold the bomb instead of getting lynched" I'd rather we exhausted your passing options and left you stuck with it to foreclose any last minute shenanigans in that case, i.e. you pass it to three different people who all pass it back to you.

[AurorusVox]

The way you said "leaving out ONE FREAKING WORD" made it seem like it was something you could or should have included, so I thought you were claiming to have simply forgotten it.

I didn't say their votes were the same, in fact I've highlighted twice now that you've said they're not the same. In fact my point against you hinges on you not seeing them as the same thing, because you have ALSO said you'd "happily" vote for Fate. This indicates that Fate and Katsuki are interchangeable as the target for your vote. But if Katsuki is worse due to the timing of the vote, why are they interchangeable?

Regarding "the last thing." Who knows? Maybe Jack dying with the bomb has given his scumteam an indication of impending bomb deadlines. It's safer to make sure you can't pass it to anyone; and if you intend to blow up with it anyway, what's the problem?

[AurorusVox]

I'm not saying lynch you. I'm saying you pass the bomb to other people until you can't pass it anymore and so you can't screw around with it. If you're going to die from an explosion, then what does it matter to YOU if you can't pass it any more? Sorry but I don't want to rely on trusting you to hold onto it until it detonates.

My vote is staying til you blow. The scenario I foresee is as follows, especially with you refusing to exhaust your passes; town bandwagon another player; you pass the bomb and quickhammer. I mean, if you're as good as dead anyway...

[AurorusVox]

Hito, it's a 14p. Does that change your calculations?
Also, one of those kills could be a vig (presumably Hoopla, since it was a shooting, and since stabby seems to coincide with "sociopathic"?)

@Mod

: I'm going to be quite busy from now until Saturday, I'll get on to post as much as I can but I want to lay down a tentative

V/LA from now til 29th January

Noted

[AurorusVox]

Dumbest goddamn post ever.

Hoopla doesn't get vigged.

Hell I'm paranoid about her 4/5 of every game and even

I

don't vig her...

I've never played with Hoopla before so I don't know about Hoopla-vig meta. But

@AV: If a vig shot hoopla after that day then there will be much words said if found. That shot alone almost completely eliminates the possibility of it being a vig.

is a fair point after I went back and read Hoopla's posts again.

I still like the sound of passing bombs to scum rather than lynching them. That was meant to be the plan yesterday until TMH hammered. So, Fate, rather than having AntB give you the bomb back we can direct him to bomb whoever, that'll keep a pass in reserve for you. I'd like to see TMH getting the bomb.

We should make sure to avoid wagonning and hammering whoever has the bomb at all costs so that we don't get a random someone left with the bomb overnight. We can leave the "second" scummy player with the bomb (and no passes left, to prevent quickhammer + pass shenanigans) going into night.

[AurorusVox]

Protip:

The easiest way to avoid 'accidental' lynches is to not vote.

That's why I've not voted for TMH

@Katsuki: is it the vibrancy of my avatar?

[AurorusVox]

I'm back from V/LA now. Having read over the thread, I don't get why people are hating on Fate, he's pretty obvtown?

Hito strikes me as the sort of player that would be able to play a really obvtown game even as scum, so Fate's catch regarding the ISOing is interesting. I'm not sure though because Hito is pretty spot on about taking advantage of the month day and I don't know if he'd be keen to MC as scum (I mean I can think of reasons why but he seems genuine about wanting to do it to catch scum) Also Hito, what in my ISO#10 / #11 caught your attention? Is there anything you need clarifying, etc?

TMH is still suspect, Hito's right that the BW vote looks bad. He's kinda explained it, but I'm not too convinced. Also, he was asked for explanations to his scumreads and he did give most of them, but he didn't elaborate on his Hito scumread. I'd like to hear it.

We'll see what happens to AntB when the bomb goes off. There's always a chance oneshot bomb immunity is a scumbility. I'm considering this because I don't like the way he acted as though he didn't want the bomb, and then revealed he was immune to it anyway. AntB, can you explain this?

[AurorusVox]

AV WHAT THE FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

HITO IS SCUM THAT CAN BE OBVTOWN, AND IM OBVTOWN, YET IM NOT SCUM WHO CAN FAKE OBVTOWN?

WERENT YOU JUST SCUMBUDDIES WITH ME?

Hito can be obvtown in terms of helping town out with his thinking and understanding of mechanics and all that stuff, which is easy to do regardless of alignment. He's considered in his posting and I think that he'd look just the same either way. It's his style that is obvTown.

But when I say you're obvtown, I mean I think it's pretty obvious that you're town this specific game, because of your actions, and not your style. Plus, I think it's more obvious you're town here than in DEFCON. A few people thought you were a good scumhunting scum in that game :p

[AurorusVox]

I mean a couple of people thought you were scum, but that you were helpful in rooting out the other scumteam.

Well lets remove all the fluff and put it simpler: I read your actions here as townish, not your style. Style transcends alignment, actions don't.

[AurorusVox]

Eh, I hate unprovoked VT claims. Did anyone even accuse Ben of trying to delay for scummy motivations?

[AurorusVox]

Ben you can look at my Wiki which has all my games in.

I would vote for Ben for his unprovoked VT claim and the resulting faff about claiming (and still pushing not-claiming AND claiming simultaneously) but I don't want to risk the day ending just yet. Treat this as an "intent to vote" \o/

Katsuki was your website mafiascum.net? :O

[AurorusVox]

Scum have plenty of motivation to claim unprovoked. Claiming VT early serves no pro-town purposes, whilst an early VT claim from scum is relatively safe as you don't get tangled in a fakeclaim web. It's the circumstances surrounding the claim that are suspicious too: the way you've encouraged claims by claiming early, whilst at the same time saying you're against claims, is ludicrous. I don't know whether you expect only VTs to claim, but guess what, you're outing PRs by doing that, because

having claimed VTs narrows the field down for PR-hunting scum.

You passed the bomb to Jack. He wanted the bomb. I had you as null before because I had to counter that with the fact that you also tried to get him lynched. But in retrospect, you could have simply put the vote there as a precaution in the event that he couldn't judge when the bomb was going off. In that scenario hypoScumBenmage would gesture to the vote to get himself off the hook...which is what you've done. Btw, did you forget that you gave the scum what he wanted?

[AurorusVox]

Because we have multiple bombs we can use instead of lynches. Going to night will very likely involve another two kills. I'd rather keep the day going so that we can control who goes down rather than letting scum and SK loose.

[AurorusVox]

This is a generalized statement. In general early claims should be avoided. I gave my reasoning for this scenario. There was reasoning. If you disagree with it....well....get better. So far my points have been the correct ones.

One of your points was stolen from Hito. I also don't see how you claiming VT early proved anything. Okay, in your scenario where scum will only claim VT, doesn't that give us x number of clears to NOT BOMB during our month long day? Also, your assumption that all scum will claim VTs stinks of you trying to sneak a PR-fakeclaiming scumbuddy through the game.

Couldn't I just withhold my claim to the proper time, then claim easy VT.... and still not get tangled in a fakeclaim web....Moreover early claiming VT fucks me if I am scum PR and got tracked/watched...and or NK'd and got tracked/watched...Granted you can say well I'm a goon who did nothing...but the point remains that Early claiming cannot be argued as a logical scum thing to do. (Especially in this scenario). Point Benmage.

No, not point Benmage. You could have waited til the end to claim VT but the fact is that you're trying to use the timing to make your claim look legit. Saying "If I was scum I'd have done this" is pure WIFOM, and the fact you're trying to use such arguments to convince people you're a real VT sets off alarm bells.

I didn't encourage claims. I tried to illustrate the idiocy of the massclaim and that it will achieve nothing. And I claimed to demonstarte that I had nothing to hide.

How can you say I encouraged claims when the whole time I was the only one in opposition to the massclaim.

Sure SC didn't understand why many wanted to massclaim. But he sheeped when the idea of breaking the game was suggested.

Because I'm accusing you of hypocrisy. You've directly asked people to claim, you've also started the whole process rolling earlier than we had wanted.

Are you reading???? VTs will claim VT....duh. PRs will claim PRs...and scum will claim VT. What does the massclaim achieve? Outted PRs....that's why I was against it. The deduction here is very simple. Your logic in this quote doesn't make any sense to anything I've said.

So far you've pushed people into claiming. If you didn't want to out PRs why did you do this? We've now had some PR claims so your whole song and dance has achieved nothing. And my logic doesn't make sense because I'm

saying its illogical

to think that by pressuring people for claims you won't out PRs. You've pressured people into claiming. You say you don't want to out PRs. Does not compute.

Uhm yeah I didn't want the bomb on me at all.

He wanted it

...I was still trying to understand his play in my mind, but wanted it off me asap. Which is why after a little more time and consideration I then pushed strongest against him.

Exactly, he wanted the bomb. You gave it to him. Great job.

And push as hard as I was....on D1...to Jack, a good scummer... Nah I aint even gonna do that as scum. But thanks for the belief that I'm that badass.

I refuse to underestimate anyone. This is more WIFOMdefence which stinks.

In this quote we discover AV is scum. You call me hypo scum? Lol... you want me dead. You better fucking believe in this scenario and not be thinking in theory. But you're just trying to get a lynch on one of the better players because a few VI's placed their votes on me.

Lol nice misrep. What I'm saying is that hypothetically if you were scum I would expect you to do X. You did X. Therefore I think you are likely to be scum. And of course, everything is theory at the moment - do you expect me to have undeniable evidence that you are scum?

Did you forget that I blew scum up?

Did you forget he WANTED THE BOMB.

---

Hmm, its a shame Hito's ability is one-shot. I'd have liked to have tested Spy's claim twice. If we can afford it we should check Spy's multi-shot ability by having him defuse a bomb placed on him at some point later in the game; if he's lying about his power he'll get blown to hell.

[AurorusVox]

Henry Li, intern, Vanilla Townie, and birthday boy

[AurorusVox]

Glad to see we didn't waste Hito's ability. Spy, do you know the intricacies of how your ability works? Once you've decided to defuse a bomb, does it remain impotent until it *would* have gone off, and then the new bomb starts, or does it effectively remove the bomb there and then, and shift the next bomb closer by however much time? Depending on your answer, it might change how we test your ability (my thoughts are that in the former case, it would be worth using Hito's ability first, to see whether to wait to prove you, or give the bomb to a suspect and eventually lynch someone; vs the latter case in which you should get the bomb and defuse, and THEN use Hito's ability to see how best to spend the rest of our day)

[AurorusVox]

IMMA HOLD IT ON BECUZ I HAZ BOMB SUPER POWER ROLEZZZZZZZZZ

Is this serious? You passed the bomb so I'm not sure. I'm happy for a not-full claim because I think you're town so far, but I don't want this to descend into a WIFOM VT claim later down the line.

Hito's request seems reasonable. Voting can hold off til after the next 'splosion. How are we organising who gets the bomb next - popular vote/pass to whoever the hell you want/???/profit?

Ben, if you don't want to out all the PRs, why are you pushing Fate to fullclaim? Having his full role outed just tells scum who the best target is.

[AurorusVox]

Fate, do you advocate keeping Benmage alive as (in your view) the confirmed SK? Also I asked you how serious your bomb PR claim was (not looking for specifics, but I don't like the idea of it being free-floating for you to revert to a VT claim later down the line).

[AurorusVox]

I'm so scum but you bombed someone you think is town?
Riiiight.

Ben, you don't want PRs outed, so why do you want Fate fullclaiming?
Why is SpyreX likely "not with the town"?

[AurorusVox]

Why is SpyreX likely "not with the town"?

[AurorusVox]

Fate, do you think the crosskill potential of SKbenmage > having 1 kill per night for town? Also, did you miss my repeated question about PR/not or are you just ignoring it?

[AurorusVox]

Also

, I'm down to lynch NS or Benmage once the bomb goes kablam.

[AurorusVox]

Last time when I was scum with AV he was pretty obvscum.

I think blatant rolefishing falls into that category.

Eh, I'm specifically not rolefishing you. I don't care what role you have, and I don't think you should claim it. But you earlier said you had a Bomb related PR and I want to determine whether this post was a joke or not. Ambiguously softclaiming like that as scum lets you (a) revert to a VT claim if you feel it or (b) spend time thinking up a PR claim, and (c) discuss with your buddies which of (a) or (b) you should do. Don't say

what

your power does, just say PR or not. If you hadn't made that "joke(?)" post about being a PR I wouldn't have been all over your grill so much but it sets up too much WIFOM for later.

---

Hito, do you think lurking is a scumtell?

I'd 100% lynch NS on a TMH scumflip, but I think Ben is scummier by virtue of what he has posted (as opposed to what NS hasn't posted) so I'd rather see BM hang if TMH is a mislynch. You yourself said we can't afford two mislynches today, and town can lurk just as much as scum.

In either case, I think that instead of Spy using his power today, we solve the above conundrum by getting whoever we decide of those two to L-1 with the person who is being wagoned voting for themselves*. Then the person with the bomb passes the OTHER person of the two the bomb and then hammers. So that IF the bomb goes off over night, it takes out whichever of the two we didn't lynch. If it doesn't, we can decide what to do a'la Spy the next day. Anyone other than the bomb-holder hammering will be considered a scumclaim.

*self-vote is necessary to prevent scum foiling us.


So, for example, NS gets to L-1 with NS on his own wagon, then ??? passes Ben the bomb and hammers - or vice versa.

[AurorusVox]

IMMA HOLD IT ON BECUZ I HAZ BOMB SUPER POWER ROLEZZZZZZZZZ

I'm asking him to clear up this. Yes, it boils down to "is he a VT?" I'm not asking what the PR is - keeping that confidential is the better play at this point. But with everyone else claimed TODAY, I don't want Fate to get the night to discuss his strategy if he's scum.

[AurorusVox]

Also, the "one problem" - is there a flaw in my strategy you would like to raise or do you just not like it because you're scum?

[AurorusVox]

Eh, I'm specifically not rolefishing you. I don't care what role you have, and I don't think you should claim it. But you earlier said you had a Bomb related PR and I want to determine whether this post was a joke or not.

Is it really pro-town either way?

I stick by my position. Fate not

full

claiming is good because it doesn't tell scum how high a priority he is for NKs in relation to the other PRs. But if he doesn't claim at all, he has a gap open for later in the game. I don't like the gap.

---

REEKS OF SCUM PLANNING SINCE HE HAS NO ACTUAL SCUMHUNTING TO DO.

"Actual scumhunting" as in, TMH is scum, Ben is scum, NS is scum? I've said all these already. One of them might be SK, there might be 2x2 scumteams. Either way they're the bad guys.

WHY WOULD THE PERSON THAT IS BEING WAGONNED HAND THE BOMB OFF AND HAMMER? IN WHAT SITUATION DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? DO YOU WANT TO IDEALLY HAVE TWO SCUM DIE? WHY WOULD SCUM TOGETHER KILL EACHOTHER?

That's not even what I've said you idiot. READ MY POSTS DONT JUST SPAM ALLCAPS LOLOLOL.

The person being wagonned doesn't have the bomb. Let's play it with examples.

1) NS is at L-1 with NS on the wagon. It is important that NS is on the wagon so that he doesn't quickhammer himself as scum and decide who goes into night with the bomb.
2) AV has the bomb. AV passes Ben the bomb and hammers.
3) Ben now has the bomb at night. If the bomb detonates over night we control who has it.

Ben/NS are interchangeable.

AND WHAT IN THE FUCK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH SPYREX'S ROLE?

Because Spy's role diffuses the bomb - using the above plan as a potentially town controlled night kill > diffusing the bomb to confirm Spy today when he can be confirmed tomorrow.

DONT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS SCUMBAG. TRY OUTING YOUR BUDDIES INSTEAD WITH YOUR LAUGHABLE CONTENT.

Sorry but I'll respond to your shit ALLCAPSRAGE with logic thanks.

ALSO LOL "IF IT DOESNT GO OFF WE'LL USE SPYREXS POWER" THERES NO TOWN TRAIN OF THOUGHT IN YOUR PLAN.

Why? We can wait to confirm Spy until tomorrow. If he gets confirmed today he'll likely just get killed off.

YOURE AS BAD AS SCUM AS EVER AV, AND THE REASON I LOST DEFCON MAFIA FOR FUCKS SAKE.

Lololol. The reason I got caught in DEFCON was because three posts THAT WERE WRITTEN BY YOU were intercepted that put me in a position of confirmed scum. Kthx.

Also I play townie much better when I'm scum. /shrugs

----

Oh, more?

I WAS JUST SCUM WITH YOU. WHEN DID I DISCUSS A SINGLE FUCKING THING IN THE QT?

We discussed things during the night phase. Yep.

I WAS JUST SCUM WITH YOU. I PLAN TEN STEPS AHEAD. I DONT NEED TO "STALL" TO MAKE A FUCKING FAKECLAIM.

In DEFCON we knew what all the roles were. Here scum probably don't have fakeclaims (RC's mod meta), so you'd need to fabricate one as scum.

DO YOU THINK IM SCUM? YOUR FENCESITTING BULLSHIT IS JUST THAT. THERES NO "FATE IS PROBSCUM! WE MUST MAKE HIM CLAIM LEST HIS ANTICS RUN WILD!"

Why does nailing you down as PR/not only work if you're scum? I don't KNOW 100% that you're town. I'm covering my ass for later on

in case

you're scum. If you didn't want this hassle WHY did you make that LOLOLOL I'MA BOMB PR KTHX post?

I don't see why people are okay with this. I see wiggle-room softclaiming and I pursue it.

[AurorusVox]

"I want to know what kind of PR he is at the least

AurorosVox doesn't sit completely well with me. He can't go "Oh, I wasn't rolefishing" after trying to get you to fullclaim.

I'm happy for a not-full claim

Where have I asked for what KIND of PR you are? Where have I asked for a fullclaim? I have stressed every single time that I don't want a FULL claim.

[AurorusVox]

I wouldn't have minded if he hadn't made the post about being a PR in such an ambiguous manner - it just seems to flirt with the PR/VT issue, as though its setting him up for either situation later on in the game. I got a lot of flak for pursuing an ambiguous softclaim in txtMafia, but I can't really understand why people are content to leave such loopholes open.

[AurorusVox]

I wouldn't have minded if he hadn't made the post about being a PR in such an ambiguous manner

No. It suggests he's a PR. Just believe that and drop it. If he claims VT later hound him for that. But you won't live that long, cause newsflash: You die next.

So we are all to believe that it is a legit PR claim and that he cannot now claim VT. THIS is all I wanted to hear - albeit from him - and you yourself seem to understand that having it clarified is good - or rather that it's already clear. WHY is it bad for me to want the clarification that you seem to already have? If the information is already out there, why is me clarifying it any different from you already having it clarified in your head? How can you say on the one hand that I'm rolefishing him when all I want to hear has apparently ALREADY been said? Is it because you're just trying to push my mislynch without actually thinking it through? Yeah I guess it must be.

---

EXACTLY. YOU SHOULD WANT TO KNOW IF YOU THINK IM SCUM.

YOURE COVERING YOUR ASS LIKE A SCUMBAG, AND ROLEFISHING OF A CERTAIN VARIETY THAT YOU HOPE WOULD NOT BE SEEN AS SCUMMY.

AND DONT YOU USE BULLSHIT META EXAMPLES FROM ANOTHER GAME. DO YOU ROLEFISH A SOFTCLAIMED MASON? DO YOU ASK HIM: IZ U MASON BUDDIES OR IZ U GAMBITZ?

ALL WILL BE REVEALED IN TIME. YOU SHOULD ONLY CARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, YOU SHOULD EITHER THINK IM TOWN OR SCUM, AND PLAY ACCORDINGLY. THIS MIDDLE OF THE ROAD SHIT IS

WHY YOU ARE OBVSCUM

So if I think you're town, I should ignore everything that looks to be a scumtell? I should just say "Yep I think Fate is town anything bad he does from now on out I'll just pretend I didn't see and that he's Townie McTownface"?

IF YOU'RE TOWN, I don't want to hear what PR you are since fullclaiming helps scum. Why did you keep insisting I was asking you to fullclaim when it's apparently part of your case that I wasn't asking you to fullclaim?
IF YOU'RE SCUM, I don't want you to have the wiggleroom to claim VT later on. Apparently, according to Ben, you've already solidly claimed PR - all I was asking for was clarification on that particular claim, I wasn't asking for any more than what you'd already been happy to say yourself.

Asking for that clarification satisfies both of those situations. Yes it's middle ground but that's because it WORKS as middle ground in this case.

And don't try to pass this off as a regular softclaim. It was a LULZALLCAPS SARCASTIC CLAIM. I think it would have been very easy for you to have pretended that was a joke. It looked scummy. So yes I pushed you on it. If you'd softclaimed in a less reversible manner, I probably WOULD have let it slide.

[AurorusVox]

VOTE: AurorusVox Even when called on it you still go fishing...

all I was asking for was clarification on that particular claim, I wasn't asking for any more than what you'd already been happy to say yourself

Despite being told that fate isn't claiming several times...

And you say this despite me saying several times I'm not after a FULL CLAIM so what are you talking about?

RE: "I haven't claimed VT or PR what are you talking about" - I'm referring to the post where you said "LOLOLOL I'MA HOLD BOMB COS I'MA PR" and you distancing from that post highlights my point about you wanting to keep your avenues open. Why did you make that post?

Ben: Fate wants to wiggle out of the position he put himself in earlier. Now what?

[AurorusVox]

EBWOP: Middle one was aimed at Fate obv.

[AurorusVox]

Ben: Fate wants to wiggle out of the position he put himself in earlier. Now what?

I've been wanting him to fullclaim from the getgo to help prove how right I am/was.

unvote vote AurorusVox

L-2 no need to go further than this until BOOM!

?

You agree that Fate's misbehaviour is badthings. Yet you're voting me because I think Fate's misbehaviour is badthings?

[AurorusVox]

Nononono....Let the record show I called you scum loooooooong before Fate said anything your way.

So why do you think I'm scum?

[AurorusVox]

Scum does not need to know if Fate is a power role or not.

I assume you typo'd. This is crap, btw. Of course if you remove all context "town does not need to know if player x is PR or not" but IN THE CONTEXT of everyone else claiming, with Fate's shittily ambiguous "HERPA DERPA IMA PR" post, it's in our best interests to close down his potential to dick us around later in the game. You're all just giving him a pass because he's Fate.

[AurorusVox]

But the point is that I'm not asking WHAT his specific role is.

And if scum does not need to know that information, why do you think I'm scum for saying I want to know that information?

[AurorusVox]

Nononono....Let the record show I called you scum loooooooong before Fate said anything your way.

So why do you think I'm scum?

Your reaction to my claim was horridly logically flawed and opportunistic.

Only flawed if you look at it through your already abysmally skewed perspective. A whole bunch of people found your claim wrong on a number of levels. That's why they wagonned you. If you're calling me out on that then it's YOU who's being opportunistic.

---

But the point is that I'm not asking WHAT his specific role is.

Hence the disclaimer "or whatever other power role scum thought up".

No, not hence, because in what I was asking, I wasn't asking for ANY power role to be thought up, I was asking SOLELY for clarification on something that allowed Fate if he was scum to take us all for a ride.

And if scum does not need to know that information, why do you think I'm scum for saying I want to know that information?

I say "need" from the viewpoint of what is beneficial to town. Other than that, I just explained this. To scum, a power role is usually either roleblock bait or nightkill bait. A vanilla townie does not pose a threat by itself.

But there are already three other outed PRs. Why would scum need to target Fate when Hito, AntB and Spy are all claimed PRs?
Also, "I say need..." - so you're saying you're concerned with what scum need

in relation to

what benefits town? That doesn't make sense.

[AurorusVox]

Nononono....Let the record show I called you scum loooooooong before Fate said anything your way.

So why do you think I'm scum?

Your reaction to my claim was horridly logically flawed and opportunistic.

Only flawed if you look at it through your already abysmally skewed perspective.

Nothing else needs to be said. This is why you are being hung. Period. Glad to have been of service....but I'll indulge further for kicks.

A whole bunch of people found your claim wrong on a number of levels.

Village idiots are your defense.... tmh is going boom. No one seems to really care. Sprye aint saving him. AND I called him town. Wow. But thats your defender okay...... and NS.....doesn't the majority want NS dead next.lolololol your "people" sure looking like class acts.

And there's SC....whose also not with the town. But also did it apparently on the premise that I saying tmh is town and killing tmh means I'm scum. But like I said. He's not town either.

So yeah...tl/dr your scum. Your dying. You don't agree with the reasoning....but you not agreeing with the reasoning does nothing to nullify my reasoning. You still die.

So everyone who thought your actions were dodgy is either scum or VIs. Sure sounds like OMGUS to me

---

But the point is that I'm not asking WHAT his specific role is.

Hence the disclaimer "or whatever other power role scum thought up".

No, not hence, because in what I was asking, I wasn't asking for ANY power role to be thought up, I was asking SOLELY for clarification on something that allowed Fate if he was scum to take us all for a ride.

Fate is the one thinking a power role up only if he is scum. If he's town, then scum have to guess what he could be based on his actions, which you're clearly trying to do. Granted, you claim it's just a binary "PR or not PR" that you want, but that is still too much information to have out.

I don't think so, not when there are legitimate claimed PRs around. If Fate HADN'T made that awful post, I'd have agreed with you, and been happy for Fate to not claim. But that post stunk so much, and I think having it lying around ambiguously like that is MUCH worse for town in the long run.

And if scum does not need to know that information, why do you think I'm scum for saying I want to know that information?

I say "need" from the viewpoint of what is beneficial to town. Other than that, I just explained this. To scum, a power role is usually either roleblock bait or nightkill bait. A vanilla townie does not pose a threat by itself.

But there are already three other outed PRs. Why would scum need to target Fate when Hito, AntB and Spy are all claimed PRs?

I am not answering this question. Why should I give scum suggestions on which claimed power role is the best nightkill choice when the point of what I'm arguing is that we should not tell scum if Fate is a power role himself?[/quote]
It was a rhetorical question. I'm not asking you to say who the best kill of those three is, where do I say that? I'm saying it's stupid to think scum would target un-fullclaimed Fate (whose power they have no idea of knowing) when there are three super shiny claimed/proven townies.

Also, "I say need..." - so you're saying you're concerned with what scum need

in relation to

what benefits town? That doesn't make sense.

It does not make sense because I am not trying to help scum win; I am trying to help town win. Therefore, I am not pushing an unbiased opinion on what constitutes a "need".

Ohhh. I thought you meant "what scum need to benefit town" not you're looking at what scum need from a town-beneficial perspective. I still fail to understand your point.

Scum don't need Fate PR/Not
AV demands Fate PR/Not
AV = Scum
???

[AurorusVox]

Also lol@Fate using my night plan when apparently I'm scum and my plan sucked

[AurorusVox]

Your claim

was

bad. It was unnecessary and filled with flawed logic.

[AurorusVox]

I've told you why I've found it both unnecessary and filled with flawed logic. You disagreed with my points but I still believe they are valid/agree with SC.

I think Fate is Fate and has his own crazy way of working that's different from everyone else. ALSO let it be known that Fate has called you SK for basically the entire day phase.
Spy hasn't really been in this game much of anything. Hito is also suffering a little from the SpySyndrome.

Admittedly your claim is an easy case for scum to push, but really that's because it's scummy. By which I mean either you're an SK, with TMH [and/or] NS as scumbuddies with Jack; or you're scumbuddies with Jack and we have a 2x2 scumteam with TMH [and/or] NS as a mysterious other scumteam member.

SC is town, yo.

[AurorusVox]

Why is AntB lurkerscum but NS isn't?
Was the "needs to be put down" re: Benmage a decorative part of the metaphor, or do you actually think he needs to be put down (i.e. lynched/bombed)?

[AurorusVox]

Are we going to give AurorusVox the rope or are we waiting for themanhimself to go boom for some reason?

Ideally we're lynching Ben or NS.

Wait for TMH to blow, then we can give someone the bomb to hold overnight in case of a night time explosion. Town directed night kill. Do you not see that this is beneficial to the town? Don't let me down and be scum, now, SC :\

[AurorusVox]

(Actually, come to think of it, it might be better for me to get the bomb then pass-hammer so scumbag NS/AV doesn't pass to a townie then hammer?)

I like that plan.

Fuck me. This is the plan I've been spouting for days now, which you said you hated and was scummy. Now Hito says it (finds me scummy despite not reading my posts?) and Ben suddenly likes it. BEN IS SCUM. Hito might be. Proceed accordingly.

[AurorusVox]

who cares.

I like that plan.

You do, apparently.

[AurorusVox]

@Ben
That wasn't what you said the first time. The first time you just made a bitchy remark. Because you're not reading to see if I'm scum or not. You're reading for the express purpose of getting a townie lynched.

And no, it isn't "pass...lynch" it's SIMULTANEOUS PASS AND HAMMER which is an important difference.

AND moreover, your 3x pass idea sucks. If one of the people is scum they'll pass to whoever they want and quickhammer, thus negating the potential for a TOWN DIRECTED NIGHT KILL.

[AurorusVox]

Fate nice catch on AntB's flipflop shenanigans. /intent to vote

So now NEITHER Ben nor NS are holding the bomb going into night? Boys you're letting them slip through your fingers.

[AurorusVox]

Waiting an extra day for the bomb to blow before voting to prevent shenanigans is wimpy?

[AurorusVox]

Scum in the bomb squad would be awesome...(#1)

I don't believe there is a traitor inside the bomb squad(#2)

VOTE: AurorusVox(#3) Even when called on it you still go fishing...

@Benmage
She has...
She has me and SpyreX as scum, despite that we're both bomb squad(#4) and I've been role-confirmed. Also, look where her vote is....(#5) yeah...

1&2 contradict
1&4 contradict
3&5 contradict

I thought this is the point you were making?

[AurorusVox]

Me or DG?

[AurorusVox]

Am I a wimp too?

[AurorusVox]

OHOHOHO

But weren't you yourself warning people not to vote for mafia hammering and bombing shenanigans? Weren't you trying to get people to wait til the KABOOM to vote? Hmmmm is this another contradiction on the part of the mighty Ben? Why I think it is.

[AurorusVox]

Here ready to put AntB at L-1. Spy you still there to hammer and pass the bomb?

[AurorusVox]

Vote: AntB

[AurorusVox]

=_=" I thought you'd pass it to me. Really, the bomb belonged with NS.

[AurorusVox]

FATE I WONDERED IF YOU WERE SCUM YOU LITTLE BASTARD

Hito I put all my trust in you to command the bombing of Fate and the lynching of SpyreX tomorrow.

Though its game over for me now, I don't want to see Fate WIFOM his way out of this. DO ME PROUD! MY DEATH WILL NOT BE IN VAAAAAAAIN!!!!!

[AurorusVox]

HOL DUP

After a lynch hits, the bomb is stuck with whoever has it.

I hope that ban on bomb passing equates a ban on all bomb actions. If so, and Fate failed to detonate in time, then I might get to exact my sweet revenge!

[AurorusVox]

Ineffective Vote: Fate

[AurorusVox]

Ben goddamnit if you're town you lead the lynch on Fate.

[AurorusVox]

Nonono wait, shit. If Spy and Fate are scum together...><"

You need to lynch Spy because he can't get bombed as he'll just defuse it.
But if you try to bomb Fate Spy will just defuse that.

Ugh.

[AurorusVox]

This was my reasoning

Pretty sure Fate's and Spy's were only to get the mislynch.

[AurorusVox]

AntB has already gotten lynched. And then Fate detonated a bomb on me and claimed scum with Spy. Hence the comment about their reasons being for the mislynch.

[AurorusVox]

Pertinent posts;

Pass Bomb: AV
Vote: AntB

Me and Spy are scum. I have a PR that forced a bomb explosion whenevr I want.

Gg town.

GG

Dude not yet

this is 14p, not 12p, numbnuts

Detonate: Bomb

SHIT ME AND COUNTING FUCK


I'M SORRY SPYREX WRITE IT OFF AS WIFOM

[AurorusVox]

I'm serious about me being confirmed scum.

I mean, again, I was JUST scumbuddies with SpyreX in this very game.

My counting is horrible, Q-list grade, bullshit.

Fix'd.

[AurorusVox]

Pass bomb: Nobody Special

Vote: Fate

Kakakaka, that was a scary night time. Fate you liar.

[AurorusVox]

Because NS needs to blow up, which I'm fairly sure of. But Spy flipping town has me on the back foot so I'm less certain of you, hence only a vote that is less definitive.

[AurorusVox]

I'd vote Benmage at this stage since he wants to go into a 1v1 with me for the SK slot (which he'll lose), but I'm certain he's not scum given his SC-interactions.

It all makes sense.

FATE

is

the SK.

-He actually thinks Ben is scum (that's why he's been calling him SK the whole time, in case Ben ever gets lynched)
-He doesn't care about Ben surviving because he (Fate) is likely un-NK'able.
-Therefore tonight he's hoping to kill Ben, and have Ben kill someone else.

Think about it.
-The bomb takes us to 5.
-A mislynch on me takes us to 4.
-Ben's NK takes it to 3.
-And Fate's takes it to 2, goodbye scum and gg win for the SK.

If he lynches Ben, who he's been "so sure" is SK the whole game, there'll only be one NK. And that means 3 way LYLO tomorrow. By not voting Ben, Fate is trying to win it tonight.

[AurorusVox]

Actually I came up with that just now. At first I was going to call you scum, but then I realised that if you were scum you'd be voting for Ben since you wouldn't want HIM to shoot you tonight. Then it all fell into place.

[AurorusVox]

Actually I came up with that just now. At first I was going to call you scum, but then I realised that if you were scum you'd be voting for Ben since you wouldn't want HIM to shoot you tonight. Then it all fell into place.

Fate can't be scum. Fatescum wouldn't shoot SpyreX buddy. He would kill SC thinking hito was being killed by scumteam.

Fate is SK.

Yeah that's what I meant when I said it all fell into place; that I realised that he was the SK.

[AurorusVox]

*scratches head* I'm having a think.

Ben is my default scum pick. If I don't see anyone else scummier then I'll revert to thinking he's probably scum. The SC interactions could have been bussing, and him giving Jack the bomb when Jack wanted it still stands out.

NS is hard to read due to lack of posts, and I think he could well be lurker scum hoping to sail by while people blow each other up. I was hoping giving him the bomb might force him to interact in some way that would give us a better lead on his alignment.

Hito is also tough to read, as I've said before I think he'd come across townish even as scum. My attempted read is that he seemed quite non-committal yesterday, but he did want to see the bomb on NS so that's some +points for him.

DGB I thought you were probably town because if you were scum you could have just hopped on my mislynch yesterday.

It's between Ben and NS atm for scum, with NS ahead by a little. Hito third, you distant fourth.

[AurorusVox]

SK hunting is a scumtell? Didn't you spend all day yesterday saying Ben was the SK?

Get to know what you're talking about Fate. In most of my scumgames I'm obvTown.

[AurorusVox]

Well you do. I'm not saying use meta to declare me town here, but I won't let you use faulty meta to declare me scum. In five out of six of my scum games I've survived to endgame and won because in all five of those people thought I was town.

Also, I meant to say this before. Wasn't the reason you thought I was scum because I was "rolefishing" you? Ah, and the reason I wanted you to confirm either way was to prevent shenanigans like you tried yesterday. Thank you for proving why I was right to hound you on it *thumbs up*

[AurorusVox]

Actually I was voting you at first because I thought you were probably

scum

. Then when I realised you were very likely the SK instead, I took some time to think about it in that new light.

[AurorusVox]

And I mentioned your SK hunting from yesterday because you didn't say "solely" at first. You said it as if all SK hunting was a scumtell.

[AurorusVox]

Looking for the SK first? I passed NS the bomb who could be scum, and I voted for you, who I thought was scum.

[AurorusVox]

^So what, me and DGB are part of a four man scum team with SC and Jack, with Ben as an SK?

Fate your counting really is bad.

[AurorusVox]

Fate's probably flipping scum anyway. He claims he doesn't let on he's scum until the lynch scene. His rant makes no sense. Apparently both me and DGB are scum with only one scum left? Yawn.

[AurorusVox]

Fate's probably flipping scum anyway. He claims he doesn't let on he's scum until the lynch scene. His rant makes no sense. Apparently both me and DGB are scum with only one scum left? Yawn.

You'll notice the following things;

1) "probably"
2) "claims"
3) "His rant"

1) I didn't treat your meta as concrete.
2) The fact I said "claims" should show that I don't invest much belief in the meta anyway.
3) I then followed it up with something else that is a much stronger post-hammer reason for why I think you're flipping scum.

Nice try FateScum.

[AurorusVox]

Ben, that doesn't work at all. If you blow me up, you'll get endgamed by DGB if you're town. (1v1)

Besides, I've read DGB as town pretty much the whole game.

Pass Bomb: Benmage

[AurorusVox]

Okay, I understand what you mean. The bomb could count as something that could prevent scum from winning so it might not be endgame. But it depends if the fact of two people living means that only one vote is required to lynch.

I'll also say that even if you're right, if you "picked the bomb up" you'd have been on the losing end of the chain and gotten blown up yourself. You'd have needed to hope DGB picked it up. Thus it also relies on a 50:50 chance.

Pass bomb: Benmage
Vote: Benmage

[AurorusVox]

Actually

Mod: At 1v1, with a live bomb in play, the game will continue like Benmage said, right? But will it be one or two votes required for a lynch?

[AurorusVox]

Pass Bomb: Benmage
Unvote

We can see if we can do it via the bomb.

[AurorusVox]

Ben, you unvote as well or I'll put my vote back on and hopefully TownDGB will hammer you. You're right, if DGB is scum we've lost if we're voting each other, and that's why I voted you; DGB has to be town or it doesn't matter what I do.

I think you're the scum so if this bomb blows on you, we should be gg town win. If you're town I'll try to use your tactic if its viable (it makes sense to ask RC before you do anything though - in particular whether it goes to one vote or stays at two).

[AurorusVox]

You mean like you were hoping to doom me? Why was your plan amazing if it was you vs DGB but not if its me vs DGB? The same 50/50 chance still applies. You're full of shit you just wanted to blow up a townie.

Vote: Benmage

[AurorusVox]

Actually, that's a scumslip right there. Your only chance is DGB hammering me because that's the only way ScumBenmage can win. If you were town you'd realise that your plan still offers hope with me and DGB alive (but it won't come to that because you're scum and either blowing up or getting hammered)

[AurorusVox]

What fear of DGB? :S

Like I said, you're scum and are getting blown up or hammered.

[AurorusVox]

Goddamnit DGB you're believing shitty NK WIFOM?

AV who BOMBS the goddamb scum NS

[AurorusVox]

Hito was confirmed town you derp. Of course he was the NK. Fuck sake.

[AurorusVox]

Gg Ben/DGB whichever of you is scum.

[AurorusVox]

So Ben wins. Great.

[AurorusVox]

Yeah.

[AurorusVox]

Nope.

[AurorusVox]

:'(

[AurorusVox]

Noooooooo!

Well I had to kill Hito, if I'd left him alive he would have explained how he was clear (one scumteam with power and the other without would have been grossly imbalanced) and proceeded to vote me with whoever was left alive at LYLO. /sigh

I thought that maybe if I'd been given time to argue I may have weasled out at LYLO. But DGB came in with max hammering confidence. I'm actually surprised I made it that far after the wagon on me D2.

I don't know why NS asked me for the bomb and then didn't come back to pass it on

FATE YOU CAUGHT ME DAMNIT
BEN you said only as scum would you excuse me. I smiled at that :p

This is probably the worst I've played as scum B)

---

RC: I think the problem with the bomb mechanic was that once it was at the end of the combo...the game stalled. Maybe if maximum intensity is what you were going for, you could do something nasty like make it nightless with more frequent bombs, and give the scum some day-power?

[AurorusVox]

T_T Stupid weather