Newbie 1052 - Endgame

[Ty]

Hello everyone, I’m Ty. As a Semi-Experienced player I will help answer any gameplay/theory related questions you have about Mafia. Remember though, the other experienced players and I are still going to be playing to our win condition, so do be careful.

Mute

Sorry Mute, I have no idea how to make a table.

1) What’s the most important lesson you learned from your first game?
2) Did you enjoy being the Doctor? Why do you feel you were lynched and how could you have prevented it?
3) What did you think of Nachomamma8 scum in your previous game?

Stels

1) Have you played a game with Nachomamma8 before (i.e. how do you know Nachomamma8)?
2) What’s your favorite role and why?
3) Why do you feel the need to put an emoticon in every post?

Workdawg

Hello Workdawg, welcome to MafiaScum. I’m glad you brushed up on your reading.

1) Have you played Mafia outside of MafiaScum (including real life)?
2) Name something important pertaining to scumhunting that you learned from reading. What’s the most important thing you learned in general?
3) If you did a lot of reading then you should know most people begin by voting someone in the so-called Random Voting Stage. Why didn’t you vote someone in your first post?

Theplague42

1) You appeared scummy in Day 1 of your previous game. How do you intend to fix this?

Vote: Ty cause he's the only experienced guy w/o a vote. And cause his username is an actual game

2) Is there any reason in particular you didn’t mention the IC Nachomamma8 who hasn’t posted yet?

2+3. I've read some games where people have been attacked harshly for "being defensive" in the RVS. And my FoS was pointing out something suspicious, not a die-hard scumtell. I am not going to cause myself to get attacked this early without a solid reason for voting.

3) Why do you care about being attacked early on?

Nachomamma8, Angry Scientist, Neuky

1) What’s your favorite role and why?
2) Why is Stels the scum?
3) Do you think you’re going to be lynched today? Why or why not?

[Ty]

Nachomamma8

Ty, how does my answer to any of those questions allow you to get a gauge on my alignment?

There’s no one-size-fits-all answer, it depends on the unique response (or non-response as it may be) given by the player. Let’s take your response for example. What you just did is a deflection, meaning you ignored the question and instead attempted to talk about something else. Why do people deflect? Often times it means they are trying to hide something or they don’t feel comfortable with how they would have responded. Based on win conditions, the only people who have an incentive to be careful about how others perceive them are the scum who are trying to fit in with the town (it should be noted however that newbies will often times do this, as demonstrated by theplague42, however this point is irrelevant to Nachomamma8).

It’s important to differentiate Nachomamma8’s non-answering of the question from others who disliked my questioning (Angry Scientist, Stels). Both AS and Stels voiced annoyance over being questioned, but both did so regardless.

I seriously hate RQS, since they can basically be used against you, plus you're the only one who benefits from it, although it doesn't help you determine alignment in any way. I see no reason not to answer though so:

Anything you say can and will be used against you, RQS or not. My question to Stels is, why exactly do you care if something is used against you (unless you’re mafia, of course)? The fact that it allows everyone the chance to write a solid post provides the game and its players with more information. People saying more things gives others the opportunity to analyze and reason, implying that it actually helps everyone (except the scum), not just me.

It only doesn’t help determine alignment if you don’t want it to. Taking the time to analyze how people respond to the questions or being questioned generally can yield some interesting information which can be used to set a baseline or stored for later. I would be interested to hear why you think a RVS random vote gleans more useful information than what I have done? It’s expected, it provides almost no information to other players other than who is bad at humor, and generally newbie mistakes render it pointless anyways. Your response would probably be “but Ty, it applies pressure!” Pressure can be applied without silly voting and because it’s so standard any hollow threats are immediately seen through.

However you’ll notice I didn’t say it’s completely worthless because it does have its uses. For example, you’ll notice that Nachomamma8 voted Naben. This vote is intended to look like she’s involved while actually doing little to further the game. Naben hasn’t confirmed and will most likely be replaced, meaning he isn’t a participant in the game. At first glance this may look like a standard lurker vote, however Neuky had actually confirmed into the game and also hadn’t posted. What would make more sense, voting for someone that has fallen off the face of the planet or voting someone who is in the game but hasn’t posted yet?

As it stands, Nachomamma8 has posted in a manner that raises alarm bells over being suspicious and possibly having ulterior motives, and has not helped the town in anyway whatsoever in her post (besides an unrelated technical issue) with her vote or question. My question to Nachomamma8 would be is there a reason I shouldn’t push for your lynch today based on the various reasons listed above?

Everyone

I briefly spoke about lurking in the above part of my post however I should inform you all that I policy lynch lurkers. If you don’t have a reason for not posting for extended periods of time I will ruthlessly advocate for your lynch faster than you can say I-didn’t-realize-lurking-is-anti-town-play.

Angry Scientist

You won't get a solid reason in or right after RVS. Unless someone start's drilling, we can pat our backs to the end of the days without anything conclusive.
…
2) He is

Hey Angry Scientist, could you explain why you don’t think there will be any scumhunting today? If you don’t believe there is going to be why shouldn’t you start?

And yes, Stels is scum. Based on the game so far, provide me with a reason that would support that statement.

Workdawg

…I didn't want to paint a target on myself for OMGUS or otherwise.

You and theplague42 have both said this, and I am here to say that that statement is irrelevant. If you are truly a townie you should not be concerned with how you appear or being killed, remember you can still win if you are dead. You should focus on your win condition of eliminating the mafia by scumhunting, no matter if it seems like OMGUS or what have you. Trying to stay quiet so you don’t get killed only hurts the town, because you are either 1) a scum that is trying to avoid detection or 2) a town player that is providing less information for the rest of the town to work with. Both are bad, so don’t be shy and speak your mind (Post #29 is exactly what I’m talking about).

[Ty]

Neuky

Was hoping you can expand on this. 1. Do you mean active lurking, or just a disinterested player who's dropped out? Would you still pursue this even if there was a strong scum candidate unearthed?

Both are lurking and will be treated as such. As for your second question, I can’t give a definite answer one way or another. It depends on the “strength” of the candidate, if someone seemed to be slipping up scumtells that seemed more obvious/pressing than lurking, I think it’s fairly obvious to say I will take down a scum wherever it might pop up.

Workdawg & theplague42

I was trying to act innocent in my first two posts. Like I said, this is my first game and I certainly don't want to be saying anything stupid that people might interpret as a "scum tell."

But what if we are almost mislynched? In my last game (as I said earlier), I was almost mislynched pretty early. Afterward I started to watch what I said

These two quotes are fairly similar so I’ve decided to group them together for the sake of relevance. Workdawg, I understand where you are coming from having been there myself, however the key is that you don’t need to “act innocent” because if you’re a townie, you ARE innocent. The only people that should be putting on an act in this game are the scum, and you doing so in order to appear more innocent actually puts yourself, and the town, in a worse position.

There are very few things you can say that are outright stupid. You may have missed something or analyzed a post incorrectly, but for the love of God it is much better to continually keep talking than to be paralyzed and stay silent for fear of being foolish. I’m going to reiterate this in one of the following paragraphs, but more talk leads to more information which leads to a more successful town. If someone is calling you out on a scumtell (many of which are simply arbitrary), just explain to them how their reasoning is wrong.

Not only should you not care about sounding stupid, but to be quite honest, you shouldn’t really care what anyone else thinks (within reason) while you are scumhunting. Do you think I care how Nachomamma8 thinks of me? Pushing people gets results, and it’s very important you do it. The last part of this post is devoted to my thoughts regarding Nachomamma8, please look it over (along with the rest of the post) and respond how you feel appropriate.

Theplague42, on the verge of being lynched is when you should be speaking the most. As a pro-town player, memorize and live by the following phrase:

Veritas Vos Liberabit

. The truth will indeed set you free. You should of course present a solid defense and rebuttal of points that may have contributed to your current position, as lynching a town player is, of course, regretful. However remember your goal should be to find the scum, so explain who is most suspicious on your bandwagon. Remember that the scum’s objective is to remain alive, so there defense will subconsciously be different. By simply reiterating and emphasizing your thoughts and freely telling the truth, you have a much better chance of avoiding an unnecessary anti-town lynch. One quick note – should you be lynched as a town player, don’t forget to post your final thoughts and analysis. Make the best of a bad situation (remember, you can still win even if you’re dead).

Mute

I do not like this post.
Firstly, it's long. Needlessly long.
Second, this is in relation to the first segment of bolded text. The entire thing (the bolded portion) is hypocritical. Any information that the town has, the scum has as well. Specifically, the underlined text. This can be used by scum to find people to eliminate during the night to be able to further spread confusion and cause mislynches.
And you're right, questioning does reveal a great deal of information, both of the ones being asked and the ones asking the questions.

First, I don’t like your post. It’s short, needlessly short. See, I can post useless information too! Anyways, we’re finally getting to some of the good stuff. This is a continuation of Workdawg’s paragraph from above, and it’s important that everyone read this. Mute, your train of thought in regards to your second statement is very misguided. INFORMATION HELPS THE TOWN. Now repeat that to yourself one hundred times. It’s fairly obvious the scum will see what we see, however the pros in this situation FAR outweigh any negatives. Large amounts of posting benefit the town in two very important ways. First, discussions and analyzing posts are almost all that the town has to go off when reaching a consensus on who to lynch, so would you agree it’s important that the town is as well informed as possible before making that decision? Secondly, the more people talk the easier it is to separate the scum from the townsfolk for scumhunting purposes. The scum are forced to either 1) talk more, which increases the chances of slip-ups and scumtells or 2) go into lurk mode, which becomes extremely noticeable.

To summarize, POST AS MUCH AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN and give the town (who should be scumhunting) a much, much needed advantage. Also, I thank you greatly for your approval of my questioning, as Nachomamma8 doesn’t seem to be as big of a fan of them as you are.

Nachomamma8

@Ty:
Vote: Ty
You've failed to explain in your post why not answering your questions has any scum intent behind it. You also failed to answer my question. Instead, you posted a case on me which is concluded with a question: why shouldn't you lynch me? Well, if you're town you don't feel confident enough to put a vote with that case, so you'll only end up making yourself look like scum. But if you ARE scum, then go ahead. I'd love to see you try to lynch me.

Look I’m trying to help you Nachomamma8 but all you’re doing is hurting yourself. You asked for my purpose in asking the questions and I provided a reasonable (and fairly long according to some) explanation. Then you end your post with a logical fallacy (False Dilemma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma )? Logical Fallacies are used by scum who can’t back themselves up with reasoning, and all I see is a scared Nachomamma8 quickly throwing down a OMGUS vote.

Perhaps the part I find most worrisome, that others may have caught, is that you’re still avoiding my questions. The only question you’ve partially answered is whether you should be lynched, and you ENCOURAGED ME TO LYNCH YOU. I repeat: why shouldn’t I lynch you, and I’m going to have to ask you to start scumhunting as it’s very important for the town. Could you please list your two most likely scum players and provide some reasons why?

END NOTE: Looks like an entire page of posts sprouted while I was posting. I'll try and get another post up tonight.

[Ty]

Angry Scientist

This entire post is full of theories that aren't really relevant to the scumhunting, unless that first paragraph was an attack on nacho, and/or it has some hidden, deeper meaning. Lot's of words, almost zero content. Another candidate for a politician. Me not like... Also,
I never said anything like that, and I don't even know how can you get your conclusion out of what I said. I said that unless you're a clairvoyant or Sherlock Holmes, you won't really get a solid reasoning out of RVS, so we need to 'drill'. By 'drilling', I meant using small reasons to accuse someone most suspicious, and then cement the case/scrap it and go for someone more suspicious as the post are piling up. I didn't say anything about no scumhunting today. About your second question, Why thank you, that's what am I doing since the very beginning - questions, catches. It already helped me by providing some reads (for example, my vote on TP42 is no longer an RVS vote since my last questioning).

I didn’t realize there was such a large anti-literacy lobby in this game. Would you like it more if I posted almost no information like Stels and Nachomamma8? Do you think that will improve the chances of a town win?

You won't get a solid reason in or right after RVS. Unless someone start's drilling, we can pat our backs to the end of the days without anything conclusive.

This is the comment in question. You just said that this day will prove inconclusive if no-one starts drilling. I’m the only one applying pressure to anyone from what I’ve seen (i.e. drilling) yet I’m one of your scum suspects for having a long post. Perhaps my priorities are different from yours, but I’ll gladly post novels if it helps lead to the scum.

My second question was directly related to you saying “Unless someone start's drilling,” which clearly implies you haven’t been doing it. Yet now you say you’ve been scumhunting this entire game. Can you explain why you’re contradicting yourself?

Stels

@Ty: Main concern about RQS is that it can be used against you. Say, you answer a question, like: "Do you support Lynch All Liars?" and someone answers yes, yet later in the game, someone lies but that person will not support his lynch for certain reasons, such as believing his claim. Yes, he has contradicted what he answered at the beginning of the game, but he has his reasons. Scum-tell? Not really. I didn't say I hated your RQS specifically, I still answered right? I just said that I hate them in general since the questions are pretty random as well as only one person benefiting from it. And please don't tell me, "you all can go ahead and do RQS yourselves" because that's just upright stupid. Oh and on the topic that it helps everyone, it doesn't. As I have said before, it only benefits you, since only you know the logic behind that question, no matter how random it can be.

RQS can be used against you? You mean to say that something you post can later be used against you? Instead of making some snappy sarcastic comment I’ll just say that that it’s a bonus for the town. Unless they are as dense as your example makes them out to be, the town should be able to take circumstance into consideration and allow it precedence over a question designed to get the game moving. At least I really hope so.

No, I’m not the only person that benefits. I believe I pointed out that the entire town benefits from the RQS due to the posting it creates. You are tunneling your vision in regards to how the questions are important. Frankly, I find the (non)responses to be most telling. You don’t need me brain to analyze how someone responded and the resulting discussion that takes place? In fact, allow me to let you in on a dirty little secret. Most of those questions have no logic at all and I don’t have an ulterior motive. Surprising as it is, we’re on the same playing field.

I briefly touched on why RQS is generally better than RVS in my previous post and I’m more than willing to discuss this theory with you, however it seems my time is better used elsewhere in the current state of things.

@Ty again: So, provide me with a reason why I'm scum, maybe I'll believe you. Or correct you with a whip. Plus, if I am scum according to you, why aren't you voting me?

I don’t think you’re the scum at all. If you’ve read my posts you’ll notice I have other suspects. As to why I’m not voting, I don’t toss my vote around like candy. I vote when I feel I have the right person, it helps avoid possible quicklynches, you know, like the one that almost happened right now.

Nachomamma8

There's no rush in throwing down the hammer this early in the game. The game will move along at its own pace, which normally is two weeks or so per day. Please keep this in mind while playing other games, or you will be a fantastic Day 2 prospect lynch. Regardless of Ty's alignment, you have taken away all of the information we can possibily get out of Day 1, and have thus seriously hurt the Town's chances of winning this game. You should know that from the game's you've read.

Wow, the lack of emotion in this post is disturbing. I was almost lynched 48 hours into the first day and this is the only response we can get out of you Nachomamma8? I almost sense concealed happiness in here, and though we may not be cuddling up to each other I think we both know the severity of the mistake Workdawg (almost) committed. In addition to answering the questions in my previous post, how does your opinion of who is scummy change after the recent almost lynch?
Note: It looks like theplague42 also caught this.

TO ALL

Yes, I see all the dramatic posting. Unfortunately it’s midnight so I’m going to stop for now and get some sleep. I’ll have another post in response to all the recent shenanigans up tomorrow.

[Ty]

AT ALL

Well I do believe this is the post you all have been waiting for! In the first half of the post I will refute the main accusations against me and in the latter half I will provide a detailed description of some of the current players in the game (I’ll post with the other players tomorrow).

It seems that there are three main reasons as to why I’m being voting right now. Let’s get down to business.

Reason 1) My posts are long.

Perhaps it’s the dozen page college papers I write nowadays but I don’t think my posts are really that long. I try to be as thorough as possible to emphasize what I say so that everyone can clearly see and note what I’m doing. But if they bother you, I truly am sorry.

My main concern with this reason is that it’s not really a reason or a scum-tell. Frankly I don’t understand how the length of my posts makes me scum, in fact one would almost argue that it would be to the scum’s advantage to make shorter posts. More writing means more opportunities for a slip that could be potentially harmful. However I would ultimately say it’s a null-tell.

Ironically I was called out for using my posts to lurk. Perhaps this can be explained to me? I assure you if I wanted to lurk I wouldn’t be taking the time and effort to write my posts the way I do (maybe I’d be someone like Neben?).

Reason 2) I am being too much of a “teacher.”

Once again, I feel this is another null-tell. As an SE I’m here to play AS WELL as help you learn the game, right? If I wasn’t answering questions/explaining things on a regular basis I would feel bad for not doing what I’ve agreed to do.

Reason 3) I’ve been tunneling on Nachomamma8

Unsure who was the first to mention this, but this is possibly the most reasonable response I’ve seen to why I’ve been voted. Towards the endgame I would agree that this can be a scumtell as it distracts the town from getting down to business in a life or death situation. However at the beginning of the game especially during Day 1 it’s a useful tool for applying pressure. You like to throw your votes around, I like to make someone uneasy.

Why I’ve been tunneling Nachomamma8 has been simple: I wanted to make sure we didn’t have a scum IC. A scum IC is probably the most detrimental thing the town faces in a Newbie game. The IC wields a large amount of power due to their authority which can be great if they’re town as they can rally new townies to lynch the scum, but it’s incredibly bad when the table is turned. Was I extremely rude and obnoxious to Nachomamma8? Yes I was(sorry ‘bout that, nothing personal ). But do realize there was a method to my madness, and I hope it proves as useful to you as it did to me (also note I did a little of this to Stels as he is the SE).

Nachomamma8

So you’re all probably wondering what my results were on Nachomamma8. To be quite honest, they are much less pro-town as I would have liked.

First of all, I am the IC of the game, and I'm here to teach you a thing or two. If this wasn't true, then you'd be the IC and I'd be the SE. Please keep that in mind when talking to me, and keep the condensending tone (whether intended or not) to a minimum. I won't press the issue, of course, but I found it worth pointing out.

Logical Fallacy #2: Appeal to Authority “I am the IC of the game, therefore I teach you, and you do not teach me.” I don’t recall saying I didn’t/couldn’t learn from you, but you felt the need to say so anyways, making sure to note that you have more power in this game.

Your use of False Dilemmas is incorrect as well. My post was not a false dilemma because I was giving you advice, things you COULD do based on your alignment. A false dilemma would be if I told you things you MUST do.

Logical Fallacy #1: False Dilemma. You clearly state that either I’m a townie not voting you making me look like scum, or if I do vote you I am scum. If you want to call it “advice” as a euphemism, go ahead, but it’s still presenting me with a false dilemma.

Your point that my vote was OMGUS is also correct. OMGUS-voting someone is voting them when the sole reason is "they voted for me", and if you look at my post, I backed up my vote quite well.

You state in Post 43 that “You've failed to explain in your post why not answering your questions has any scum intent behind it. You also failed to answer my question.” as your sole reason for voting me. If failing to answer questions (which you admit to doing in the sentence below) were scummy, shouldn’t you be the scummiest suspect currently playing in the game?

I'm not avoiding your questions; I'm simply refusing to answer them. Some of us hate the RVS, others of us hate the RQS. I, being of the latter type of person, will probably never be found answering Random Questions unless I see merit in them. Your response to my question didn't show merit, thus, refusal.

I like this part of your post because it actually uses strong reasoning and you explain yourself, something I find different than your normal mysterious persona.

You seem to be skimming over my posts.

No way, I love reading everything you write!

I'll also point out that I HAVE been scumhunting this game, and

refuse to provide my top two suspects

because there is absolutely no reason to do such a thing on page three. It's a pretty safe bet that

you're #1, though.

I hope I’m not the only one that noticed Nachomamma8 contradicted himself in the same sentence.

Final Thoughts on Nachomamma8:

Do I have a strong enough suspicion of him to support a lynch? Not at this time, no. However the little things I’ve picked up (the above post being an example) are unsettling to say the least.

Questions for Nachomamma8:

How does you not answering fairly basic question not make you scummy in the eyes of the rest of the players, when you yourself clearly use it as an example of scumminess?

Why isn’t there a reason to release your top two scum list on page three, and why do you immediately release your top scum after saying you weren’t going to?

Neuky

Specifically in regards to your ISO #4 post and to others that have been discussing Mute’s table. I’ve pretty much avoided partaking in that discussion because his table is a null-tell. The only thing out of the ordinary are people’s ridiculously inflated reactions against it. Sure it may not be the best idea, but does keeping a chart/numerical system (which some mafia players do), really make Mute more scummy? I personally don’t think so.

I’m surprised more people haven’t analyzed your ISO #5 post or the voting pattern/times, because I would agree that it seems fairly important.

Just want to add - yes I'm thinking currently of a Dawg / Stels partnership - and I've just seen Dawg's post 77 –

As I was going through the last few pages I actually made a note of the exact same relationship, particularly if Dawg were to be scum. To find this while I ISO’d your posts was a pleasant surprise. I’ll talk about this more when I discuss Stels/Workdawg in my next post.

Final Thoughts on Neuky:

You’re doing a good job kid. Frankly a lot of our thinking is similar, you’re just quieter and less of a jerk than I am. You’re going well with your scumhunting and you are doing a good job picking up on some of the more subtle things. But one thing I’ve noticed is you’ve done a good job staying behind the scenes and below our radars.

Questions for Neuky:

How do you feel about Nachomamma8?

Who besides Workdawg looks scummy on my wagon?

Naben

Hi there Naben, please post with your thoughts as soon as you can. Thanks.

Final Thoughts on Naben:

I wish I had some.

Questions for Nachomamma8:

What are your thoughts on what has happened so far (intentionally broad question)?

Angry Scientist

I’m going to withhold my thoughts and comments about Angry Scientist until his replacement has had a chance to look over the game and post.

Final Thoughts on Angry Scientist:

Will be posted when replacement posts.

Questions for Replacement:

What are your thoughts on what has happened so far (intentially road question)?

[Ty]

Continued from my previous post, it sure was a long day, wasn’t it?

Workdawg

Up until Post #47 I had a newbie-town reading on you. You began tunneling Mute for his table (which is a definite null-tell) and I felt you were trying to scumhunt, albeit in a very misguided manner.

After reading, and rereading everything posted about Ty up until now, I'm finding him to be pretty suspicious too. Mute and his table still rub me the wrong way, but in the interest moving things along I'm throwing down the hammer.

VOTE: Ty

Then I read this post. I think a few others have mentioned this is just you being a newbie town who didn’t realize what he was doing, but I’m inclined to disagree for the following reasons:

Well, like I said, I got anxious to get things rolling. I'm online all day at work and the idea of waiting 2 weeks for the first day to be over sounds insane to me.

1) Initial Reason for voting Ty #1: Time. He mentions it in ISO #7 where he votes me as well as the above ISO #15 where he’s trying to defend his vote. This should raise red flags for everyone because “speeding things up” is NOT a valid reason to be casting a hammer on someone (unless the town only has a few more hours/days to night, but since Workdawg tried to quick-hammer on the second day of the game this point is invalid).

In fact, discussing issues of time in order to speed things up is a fairly consistent scum-tell. In the numerous games of mafia I’ve played, it’s almost exclusively the scum who worry about the time to keep things moving. It makes sense the scum want the days to pass quickly considering 1) they get to talk less and 2) they get to kill another townie quicker.

This might be played off as simply an over-anxious newbie. After all, how should Workdawg know days generally last weeks?

I am a full on newbie... never played a game before, but I did plenty of reading while waiting for my account to be activated.

Oh, yeah, that’s right. He’s read through games and he knew exactly what he was doing.

2) Initial Reason for voting Ty #2: I looked suspicious. No really, that’s his entire reasoning as seen by the relevant part of his ISO #7 below.

After reading, and rereading everything posted about Ty up until now, I'm finding him to be pretty suspicious too.

The two main problems with this are that 1) If you’re going to quick-hammer someone two days into the game you better have a damn good reason and 2) you simply were parroting what others were saying at the time about my posts. I hope I’m not the only one that notices how weak this is for an excuse to hammer. Workdawg attempts to say exactly why my posts were suspicious, however I believe I refuted all of his points at the beginning of my previous post.

3) Response after realization Ty is still alive. I think others have briefly touched on this point but let me add my perspective. Like Workdawg, I think most newbie-town would not regret their decision initially. However, in ISO #15 he continue to express that he was doing the right thing, after being informed by others what a bad decision it was. I’m taking a slight trip into WIFOMland, but at that point a truly-innocent townie would be regretting/apologizing for having almost hurt the town with a quick-hammer like that.

And I can guarantee a truly-innocent townie would not still be joking around about his mistake with lame humor. Even as late as ISO #32 Workdawg continues to joke around about what he did. A townie would feel bad and move on, a scum would try to play it off as a joke so as not to appear overtly suspicious. Guess which one Workdawg is trying hard to do…

4) Gratuitous wagon-hopping. Reading through Workdawg’s ISO it’s apparent all he’s done in the game is hop on whichever wagon is closest to getting a lynch. Around Page 2 Neuky and Angry Scientist were getting on Mute’s case and Workdawg immediately jumps onto the wagon and votes for Mute.

Of course at ISO #7 he votes me, thinking he just hammered. However by ISO #12 Workdawg states that “I still think that Ty looks a bit scummy.” He just went from trying to hammer me to saying I look a “bit” scummy. Notice he does that after the wagon stalled and others had unvoted me.

By ISO #22, Workdawg is once again voting Mute, apparently the wagon for my lynch wasn’t going well-enough for Workdawg. To me, there’s a clear distinction on how you’ve been voting. Instead of trying to hunt for scum, you’re trying to find the easiest way to get someone lynched. This is playing for the win condition of the scum, not the town.

VOTE: Workdawg

Please respond to my reasons as you feel appropriate.

[Ty]

Workdawg

Did you conveniently miss my post (ISO#8), where I explained my reasoning for voting for you? It was right after I voted (though Nacho managed to ninja in between) If clearly gives my reason; which was NOT time. Certainly my anxiousness/excitableness played a part in jumping the gun there... and that's why I needed an EBWOP to explain the vote... but I didn't just see you at L-1 and pull the trigger for no reason at all.

I in fact did read your ISO #8, but the thing is, I also read your other posts. Let’s see what the earlier you said about whether time was a factor.

After reading, and rereading everything posted about Ty up until now, I'm finding him to be pretty suspicious too.

Mute and his table still rub me the wrong way, but in the interest moving things along I'm throwing down the hammer.

VOTE: Ty

This is by far the most important post of the game, hands down. In fact, I would like everybody reading this to please analyze it and post your conclusions from it, considering very little has been done with it.

The reason this is so unimportant because this is the post that gives a true glimpse into the mind of Workdawg. ISO #8 is an afterthought posted 10 minutes later after you looked at your vote and said “oh crap, I should probably actually post something that would make my hammer even semi-plausible.” ISO #7, however, is a giddy over-eager scum trying to hammer and putting up a poor excuse in order to do so.

In particular, note the bolded sentence. Workdawg specifically says he feels that Mute is scummy (or at least suspicious of the idea) at the time of that post but continues the sentence by saying that he would rather just quick-hammer instead of actively scumhunting someone he found suspicious. If you truly weren’t using time as a reason Workdawg, it’s curious that you would use it as the basis for switching your vote to hammer me.

As far as throwing down the hammer... I guess I'm a little bit anxious since it's my first game. As you can tell, I'm pretty active online and the idea of waiting 2 weeks to learn any concrete information as craziness to me.

If I set myself up as a target for Day2, then I guess we'll see what happens.

Well, like I said, I got anxious to get things rolling. I'm online all day at work and the idea of waiting 2 weeks for the first day to be over sounds insane to me.

I felt like there was ample evidence against Ty to make a lynch happen. Clearly some people disagree with that. Like I said before, I don't regret voting for him, that's why my vote is still on him. It's unfortunate that I miscounted the votes, but it is what it is. An innocent mistake.

Even if ISO #8 was to be given any credence, it would instantly be taken away with both ISO #9 and ISO #15. In these two posts, both after the last minute thought post of ISO #8 to cover your tracks, you again reiterate the fact that time played an important role in your decision to lynch me. It’s almost humorous you say I’m being selective of which ISO posts I show when THREE of the posts next to ISO #8 directly contradict what you just said. On a side note, ISO #8 doesn’t prove time wasn’t a reason. You didn’t mention time in it however you didn’t specifically say time wasn’t a reason either. You ambiguously left it out. Fortunately, THREE posts paint a clearer picture of the reasoning you provided for my lynch.

Finally, I believe the most telling part of Workdawg’s response regarding time is the argument he decided to reply with. He decided to say he never mentioned time at all, instead of arguing how mentioning time isn’t inherently scummy. Mentioning time isn’t necessarily a scum-tell, as it is important to ensure a lynch happens before the end of the day. But flat out refusing to admit he used it reeks of a scum who is trying to distance himself from a supposed scum-tell.

Again, no mention at all of IOS#8, my actual reason for voting. Feel free to look that up.

Feel free to look at the multiple posts besides ISO #8 that you wrote, which I feel provide a much better representation of your thought process at the time. Unfortunately, your reasoning (or lack thereof) spills into numerous posts other than a single one you’re trying to hedge your bets on.

My vote in post #47, and EBWOP #49: You post a lot of information without a lot of substance all the while trying to draw suspicion onto Stels and Nacho (the other two experienced players).

EBWOP: I suppose hopping on the bandwagon with the hammer looks scummy. My reasoning is that both his posts have been long on words, but short on anything helpful. There's a lot of junk in there and it seems to me like he's trying to avoid being a lurker, but also avoid suspicion by

diverting to Nacho and Stels, the two other experienced players... is he trying to get them lynched so he can take advantage of all of us poor newbies?!?!?

Throwing out a theoretical question =/= reason for quick-hammer. And no, adding more question marks and exclamation marks does not make your theoretical question any more solid or reasonable. As far as supposedly claiming the is the holy grail post of reasons for voting me, I don’t find this question being blurted out to have the validity and resoluteness required for the quick hammer vote.

It seems to me this would be the ideal situation for any SE or IC that ends up scum in a newbie game. Target the other experienced players and get them out of the way before the newbs know what hit them. I mean, geez. If you managed to get either one of them mislynched, then you NK the other one, you'd be the only experienced player in a game full of newbs and it'd be 5-2 town to scum. Sounds like the best case scenario for scum.

Or maybe the ideal situation for any SE or IC that ends up town in a newbie game is to target experienced players and clear them of scum before the newbies realize they’re being led by sheep. Oh hey, I can play WIFOM too!

Now that I think about it, the whole "lurk by way of posting useless information" seems like it would be pretty convenient considering your "faster than you can say I-didn’t-realize-lurking-is-anti-town-play." lurker lynching policy.

Challenge: Instead of throwing out generalities like candy, give concrete examples to support that I have been “posting useless information.” My paragraphs fall under providing advice and finding scum, and frankly I don’t find either to be useless.

I've already said that I don't regret voting for you. You can draw whatever conclusion you want from that.

Sure, I think I will. It’s incredibly anti-town play and with an attitude like that I would be afraid to have you on my townie team, nevermind being the scum.

I felt that you were the most likely person to be scum at the time and I'm still a little suspicious of you.

Once again you, go from be willing to quick-hammer me to being “a little suspicious” of me now. You were willing to kill me on the second day we started even playing this game, yet after you realized I wasn’t lynched you started shifting towards focusing on Mute once more. The fact you aren’t even willing to say I’m more than “a little” bit scummy now should speak for itself.

Is it a bad choice to end day one after only two days, maybe so... but if you are scum, then we'd all be pretty happy about that.

And if I was town? Then you would have squandered the town’s opportunity to discuss and analyze to lynch one of the most vocal scumhunters in the game. Once again, an anti-town mindset.

I wasn't the only person who thought you were scummy enough to deserve a vote, so can you really lay all the blame on me?

Awesome, deflection of blame! As I and others have reiterated countless times, a townie should be voting because they truly believe that someone is scum, regardless of how it makes them look. A scum would be concerned that they were sticking out too much and would want to blend in with the crowd. A deflection of blame is a last-ditch effort to try and throw off any deviance by noting that others were in on it too. By doing so, the shared guilt would help obscure you with the rest of the town, WHICH IS WHAT THE SCUM, NOT TOWN, ARE TRYING TO DO.

It's interesting that you "guarantee" a truly innocent townie would not be joking around about this. I guess we'll see what your guarantee is worth when I flip town.

You decide to prominently place this WIFOM statement in your defense? This reeks of a scum making a last-ditch effort to stir feelings of doubt in a potential lynch, something that is consistent with the rest of your post.

I hardly call what I've done "gratuitous wagon-hopping." I admit that I hopped on your wagon, sure... but that's only because I thought we had a chance to lynch us a scum. The others had brought up some good points that made me look closer at your posts. When I did, I found that you were at the top of my list of potential scum; with Mute. Are you saying it's a bad move to hop on a wagon to lynch someone; even if you feel they are scum?

Two days into the game? Yes, yes I do. Note, you weren’t just hopping onto a wagon as you so eloquently put it, you were delivering the hammer. This is a serious no-no, and as has been mentioned earlier it’s a serious newbie tell. Based on your posting, I believe it’s newbie-scum tell.

As for saying you still look "a bit" scummy. Yes, I said that; yes, I do still feel you look "a bit" scummy. Since then, you've contributed more to the game than before... but that could easily be because you almost got lynched and you decided you better step it up. You actually addressed nacho's posts (which you hadn't before) and posted something that was relevant to this game... which was my main reason for voting you.

I’ve actually posted less than I did before the vote (due to an insanely busy schedule), but thanks for your vote of confidence.

Challenge: Show where I don’t answer Nacho’s questions. After going over the Ty/Nacho confrontation I clearly respond to everything Nacho says, he tends to be the more insecure one that answers questions with questions.

As for Mute's wagon, if you want to call it that, I was the first person to cast a vote against him, and I raised issues with him the get-go. At first, it was simply an FoS on him because of the table and his "guilty until proven innocent" play-style. After that, it's been his complete inability to respond to my questions and comments.

The table is such a big null-tell my brain wants to explode from people still discussing it. After reading the Mute/Workdawg confrontation I’d say it looks like your ignoring the answers Mute is providing and are really going after him with very little. It’s not helping your case.

In conclusion, provide me with a real defense instead of some deflections and WIFOM statements. You’re scum, and I’d like you to provide me with the name of your partner. Thanks.

MUTE

Also YES SWEET MERCIFUL ABOVE. It's odd that the one IC is having issues with being V/LA and that Ty, to what I gather from the definition, is active lurking. Stels too is a bit quiet. Naben was a <censored> joke, so that's all there is to that now that he's been replaced.

Either your definition is wrong, or you’ve been skimming over my posts. I’ve gone head to head with Nachomamma and now Workdawg while scumhunting, and I’ve determined with a fair amount of confidence that Workdawg is scum.

I’m sorry I’m not messing around with a table that serves no purpose, bickering with Workdawg, or posting such insightful analysis as “Stels: recently has caught my attention.”

Dawg: He's been the main suspect this cycle in the game. Just look through my posts.

I like having things explained to me. Instead of putting the burden on the reader, provide a well detailed post with specific posts that demonstrate why you believe Workdawg is the scum (please don’t demonstrate with a table of any kind).

VERIDIS

Hello Veridis. Welcome to the game, your free ride is now over. Who is you top suspect(s) and why? Failure to post will have negative consequences, that spot hasn’t posted all game and I’d like to get a read on you.

[Ty]

I see both Mute and Workdawg online. I look forward to a reply. Thanks.

[Ty]

Hey all, bit busy tonight. I'll be posting tomorrow, don't worry.

[Ty]

I’m sorry all, the amount of work I have as an engineering student is quite frankly overwhelming. Here’s my overall thoughts on the players.

Neuky:

Town. He’s given a pretty good vibe almost the entire game and brings up good points (not to mention his logic/thinking parallels mine in some regards). You are fairly quiet though, and even if you don’t want to be as in your face as I am you should step up and find scum!

Theplague42:

Town. He’s given off newbie town vibes for most of the game and I feel there’s a good chance he’s town (though pressuring him probably wouldn’t hurt). He tries to help out wherever possible and I like that kind of attitude, though as I said to Neuky don’t be afraid to take charge as the town needs a leader.

Workdawg:

Leaning Town. I should first off say

UNVOTE: Workdawg

. Up until the last few pages you have been incredibly scummy and my previous posts demonstrate my suspicion for you. However, you’ve done a good job defending yourself and I probably wouldn’t feel comfortable lynching you D1. To the other players, there is definitely a possibility Workdawg is scum and I would be extremely careful to make sure he’s not pulling the newbie-card, but I definitely think there’s better cards. Note: good job with your replies Workdawg, I know I can be a jerk when I grill people but I’m looking for their reaction under pressure and I think you gave a very pro-town defense. To Workdawg specifically, be more assertive in the game, especially when calling people out. I personally think your wagoning (remember, personal opinion) has been weak which is what set you in my crosshairs. Analyze posts, find scummy slips, apply pressure, repeat.

Mute:

Leaning Town. For the billionth time, THE DAMN TABLE IS A NULL TELL. Seriously, if Mute or Workdawg bring it up again slap them in the face for me. I say leaning town because he’s attempted scumhunting and gave a commendable analysis of Workdawg (yes, I read all of it). However, because the table discussion consumed so much focus it’s quite possible Mute is just a scum hiding under all of the crap that has been stirred up. Stop all talk about the table and focus your efforts on doing more posts like your Workdawg analysis (they don’t have to be quite so in depth though, I wouldn’t want to kill you).

Ok, here’s where we get to the good stuff…

Stels/Nachomamma8

-

I’ve taken heat for tunneling on Nacho and looking back I’m 100% glad I did it. I’m unsure if Nacho normally shows an intense disinterest in Day One or if he’s just plain busy but this guy has not helped town at all. Seriously, go back and read his ISO. He’s thrown out a few thought-provoking questions but the majority of his posts haven’t really contributed much. The fact he’s being replaced out with almost no reasoning should raise red flags, maybe being the mafia doesn’t appeal to him as much as town.

On a similar note, I have mixed feelings about Stels. As the other SE he’s definitely faced a lot less criticism than I have and has been much more under the radar. He hasn’t been lurking but he hasn’t necessarily stood out either. Also, it’s hard to differentiate between the two, but I have a gut feeling his advice is also being used to help out a scum partner in distress, possibly Workdawg.

I think it’s quite possible that either Stels (SE) or the IC position is scum based on the above and reading their posts throughout the game. My advice to fellow town players is do not blindly follow these positions because they have more experience, as I believe there is a good chance one of them is playing against you. Vigilance, my friends, vigilance.

Asano234/Veridis(Neben)

I smell another scum in here somewhere as well. Asano234 doesn’t post often and when he does, it’s usually without substance and certainly nothing thought-provoking to help the town. The problem is he hasn’t posted enough for me to get a good read and he could very well just be a newbie town that scared to get his feet wet. If you’re town, I would strongly encourage you to pick up your game. As I’ve suggested to others, scan posts and find sentences you have a weird gut feeling about it. Then make a post to call that person out on it.

Finally, the Veridis/Neben position. What the hell is going on here, amirite? It seems to be a cursed position and I don’t feel very comfortable with that. Veridis posted maybe three times, but it should be noted that I did like parts of what I saw (obviously not his vote for me, I can assure you that’s redirecting the town down the same wrong path). Because the role has barely posted at all, I’m not sure if that’s a misguided town player or a scum who’s trying to restart a wagon to lynch a town player that is still considered suspicious by many. A very high priority for the players of this game is to make whoever replaces into this positions post A LOT.

Possible Scum Pairs- Something I find useful (more useful later on in the game but it’s never too early to start thinking about this) is finding pairs of people that seem to “fit well” together as scum. For example of two players seem to be overly friendly or overly hostile towards one another it’s not bad to make a note and watch for future interaction between the two. The biggest example would be Mute-Workdawg. As I believe Stels stated, I think this was a town vs. town argument due to the intensity and over ridiculousness, however I wouldn’t guarantee that.

Here’s the pairs I’m seeing from the game so far:

Stels/Nacho with Asano/Veridis
Stels with Workdawg/Mute

VOTE: Stels

[Ty]

Unsure what the replacement situation is, but I offered to remain playing to ensure the game isn't hampered with too many replacements. You may see less of my trademarked walls-of-fun, but I can assure you I will do my best to remain active, especially as the deadline approaches. I should have an update tomorrow night with my thoughts on recent posts (and yes I sure do have some).

[Ty]

Ho~ You made a case against me? Really now? Your ISO proves otherwise. All you've been doing now is saying that "Oh, I wanna vote Stels" without doing so. The posts that came from you from my ISO was just the shattering of some of the flaws that I had, not a case though. You haven't found anything scummy, you just go with the go about passively and stay under the radar. You're probably the only town that I can think of here that is under the radar (for me). From what I gather, you haven't been voted a single time in this game (Drench's VC). How about I explore what you really are?
VOTE: Neuky for not sticking to his suspicions and voting his current scum suspect, almost like he's afraid of the result. No actual case from what I can see except for his mistrust in me.
Let me ask you Neuky: How did you feel about me giving advice and encouragement to Workdawg? How do you feel about it now?

I don’t agree with this vote, and I’m curious as to what the motivation for a town-Stels would be to do it. We SHOULD make sure Neuky doesn’t fly under the radar as much as he does, but quite frankly I don’t think any of us think he’s currently a candidate for D1 lynching. In fact, you just said that Neuky was “the only town that I can think of here that is under the radar (for me)” right before voting him? So you acknowledge voting for a player that you believe is town in the same post you make the vote.

That’s why I fail to understand the rationale behind your vote. Is to apply pressure to make Neuky vote you? With a deadline a week away the time for pressure voting is being replaced with finding a lynch target. Neuky has mentioned several times he was holding off from voting to let the replacement have a chance to post. As someone who doesn’t throw around votes (as noted by the dissatisfaction to some), I tend to agree with Neuky’s reasoning. I would like to hear Sundy speak first, the Asano and Veridis spots have been quiet for far too long (read: almost the entire game).

@Nacho
I'm not letting anything "slide through." I've been paying attention to the argument going on around Stels, and I'm not impressed by it. You, Ty and TP42 have all voted for him, but haven't provided any good reason to do so as far as I can tell. Neuky is suspicious, but won't put him at L-1, and hasn't provided a good reason either. None of you have actually built a case against him, it just looks like pressure voting to me.

@Mute
Firstly, the original question is: What happened to drop me from 100% scum to lower on your list than a random lurker? Maybe it's me misreading your posts, but I don't see an actual answer to this in any of your posts yet.

To your most recent post: Do you have some sort of magical ability to misinterpret my posts? I thought it was clear that it was a hypothetical situation in which you were 100% certain that a person was scum. If that is the case, THEN you don't need to bother with investigation, etc. I guess you can twist around my post to turn it back into an FOS though.

Seriously what the hell. You say you don’t like the current wagon and instead of trying to find a better lynch YOU GO BACK TO ARGUING WITH MUTE.

Is Mute the scummiest player right now? If not, who is, and why aren’t you voting him?

[Ty]

Alright seriously. It's been a day since Day 2 began, just because I'm not a crackmonkey that has the opportunity to post every hour does NOT mean I have fallen off the face of the Earth.

I'm not liking the Mute wagon or the self-vote browsing through what's happened so far today. I'll post my thoughts on that as well as post-day 1 thoughts tomorrow afternoon.

[Ty]

Howdy partners! I’ve been following the game and I’m glad I can step back in to finish what I started. I’d like to give a big shout-out and thank you to Concerned, I was really glad to see he had filled the slot as his defense of my actions and analysis of the situation in Day 2 were precisely spot-on. As an aside, I was extremely amused that as soon as I dropped out the activity sank like a rock, but at least now I don’t have Workdawg’s thirty posts a day to contend with!

Watching Day 2 and Day 3 I can definitely say I’m disappointed with the direction the town has decided to take for its lynchings. Mute should NOT have been lynched and I firmly stand with what Concerned said regarding it. Then it seems in Day 3 there’s been a very misguided push for my lynch. In this post (which I know you all love) I’ll address various points that have been brought up and explain why Sordros is the mafia member we are looking for.

NEUKY

One thing that hit me was the "flying under radar" comment about me. This has bothered me for a while now, as it initially came from confirmed scum Stels:

As you are still town in my eyes I’ll start with this post. If you go back you’ll notice I said the same comment about you before the Day 1 lynch. When I (and I believe Concerned) was using the term, I meant that you haven’t really been pressured or tested about your allegiance in this game, and you still really haven’t. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, it means you’ve down a good job with the game and I am almost completely sure you are town. Pressuring you would be a waste of time at this point when there are much better targets still swimming in the sea. I believe you and Concerned were the only two people to be hesitant about the Mute lynch and as someone who was facepalming myself when that actually happened I’m going to be focusing on the other players.

WORKDAWG

You took the time to make a fairly interesting Post #601 so allow me to post my thoughts about your thoughts.

Overall
It seems like "the right" thing to do as scum to give your scum buddy a null, or at least non-committed, read. If something happens and they get lynched, I think you'd want to have the record show that you weren't sure on him. Giving a town read could look suspicious if others disagree and giving a scum read would put unwanted pressure on your buddy while he's still alive.

This part of your post stinks of WIFOM. At Day 3 we really should be moving past an abstract theoretical discussion of what the scum may or may not have done. You have 25 pages of posting to analyze about the players in this game, and it all leads to a WIFOM statement? I don’t think his Reads are providing as much information as you make them out to be to be quite honest. They have already served a purpose (you do remember his reads were a major part of why he was lynched), but is there really nothing else to go off of at all in this entire game?

From what I’ve seen so far Workdawg, you continue to be a misguided townsperson of sorts. You have a huge cannon but you seem to aim it randomly to the detriment of the game. Your fixation on Mute was wrong , wrong, wrong. Now it seems you’re starting to fixate on me as the lynch. Instead of focusing on one player, you really need to look at the game as a whole. Maybe it’s been easier with the outsider perspective I’ve had for the past few weeks, but I’ve gotten a fairly good sense of where everybody stands which makes my decision a lot easier.

AT ALL

Here’s where we get to the interesting part. Neuky, I assume this is what you’ve been on Concerned’s tail about. Please allow me to respond.

@Concerned - since you've made yourself available.. I think I see something else. Could you (or anyone else for that matter), have a look at Sordros' Mute hammer post and tell me if anything strikes you as odd.

Strike me as odd? More like put the nail in the coffin that Sordros is indeed the scum we’ve been looking for. Let’s take a look at what Sordros posted immediately afterwards:

May I remind you guys that I was the last one to vote for Mute? And that was after quite a long time had passed too. Why would anyone vote for someone if they didn't think they were not scum? So I was not the one to lynch a townie, the majority did.

My point is. Most of us thought Mute was a good scum candidate, now we know we missed. It is just fare to jump to the next candidate. In my case it would be Concerned. He has done nothing but OMGUS me all the time.

Major deflection of blame here. He’s trying to minimize the amount of fault that can be contributed to himself. Once again, this is purely survivalist in nature, striking me immediately as scummy. Instead of analyzing what just happened other than “it’s all our fault not just mine” and congratulating the town on lynching a townie (saying Mute was “a good scum candidate”), he immediately jumps onto his next target: Concerned. The clincher: his sole reason for focusing on Concerned is OMGUS voting (which it isn’t). At Day 3 you don’t start a wagon on somebody because you’re angry they’ve been voting for you. This should immediately set off the warning sirens for everybody in the game.

3) If Mute was town then I was pretty sure my hammer was not going to be very popular and would get jumped at, developing discussion at least around me and my reckless hammer. I have to admit that I was the one to mostly halt that discussion by being so inactive to the point of prodding, but that is not something I planned (I actually asked for a replacement on my other starting game due to bandwidth issues, but I'm trying to finish this game because it has already got too many replacements). Nevertheless, I think this was useful in at least one way: I was half-expecting that the remaining scum would take advantage of my reckless behavior and push hard on a wagon against me as soon as possible, while the memory of a townie hammer was fresh. From that standpoint, Concerned would fall into this profile, and you can see I was not the first one to point that out, as Dawg already spotted that on Post #569. Agreed, Neuky could fall in that category as well, but he was not the first one to propose the wagon and at least is voting to back up his train of thoughts.

This post about having a reason for hammering Mute like that is absolute garbage. Here’s a more reasonable theory as to why someone would push for your lynch after pulling something off like that: it reeks of scum and a Concerned citizen wants to eliminate our last mafia member. Absolutely Concerned fits that profile, shame on the rest of town for not pressing you on that lynch. You didn’t even give time for Mute to give a defense, which is a major no-no.

Has nobody else considered the fact that this is simply a major scum gambit by Sordros? First Workdawg tries to (unsuccessfully) quicklynch me and then Mute quicklynches during Day 2. One of these players is confirmed town and the other is considered town by the remaining players (at least from what I gather). As sad as it is quicklynching has become associated with overeager town players in this game which is exactly what sordros is trying to play it off as.

Unsurprisingly, sordros is now going after the player that is adamantly pushing for his lynch based on his recent hammering. To emphasize from earlier, Concerned isn’t playing an OMGUS vote. Take a look at my ISO #9 where I basically say that the last scum is either sordros or Sundy (in fact that post has been surprisingly accurate, and it’s still relevant even now in Day 3).

And really, THE MOST OBVIOUS REASON SORDROS IS SCUM is found in Neuky’s Post 581:

Ok, I think this game needs is a little more energy. Considering we lynched scum day 1, we have the luxury to be a little reckless.

In the hopes of re-activating this game, I'm ready to jump to my next scum candidate and jump-start this game again.

VOTE: Mute

I bet we will have plenty of discussion from here on.

He spends a lot of time saying how Mute is the scum and should be lynched, then when he lynches him he verbally acknowledges the game will be continuing. So his mouth says Mute is scum but his mind knows otherwise. This is a scum slip, and Neuky is spot on. The fact sordros conveniently ignores replying to this cements my well established suspicions. I ask each player to look at these posts by sordros and how they relate together and convince me he isn't the scum.

VOTE: Vote: sordros

[Ty]

Note: The above reads Vote: sordros (I hadn’t previously used the vote tag, please forgive me). I broke up my thoughts into two posts so consider this Part II of my previous post as it continues where it left off.

There's been noted suspicion of this slot primarily from Sundy so this is my response. It should be noted I heavily dislike the so called "shotgun approach" which is throw a dozen circumstantial situations out at a target and hope one or two resonate with the other players. Though I am almost completely positive sordros is the scum, Sundy is indeed my distant second. Whereas sordros is blatantly scummy, Sundy seems more passively scummy and the shotgun approach is something that just irks me.

Arguments against Concerned

1) Ty's initial statements about Stels being scum
2) Stels follows IC on and off Ty wagon
3) Stels' null-read of Ty
4) Concerned on Neuky
5) Concerned on Mute
6) Concerned wants to lynch Sordros right away
7) Ty is not really a founding member of Stels wagon, as Concerned claims

1) Ty stated in his first post (and reiterated afterwards) that Stels was scum.

This is still bugging me. Sordros and his predecessor both brought up this argument, and Concerned' defense was as follows:

I'll be damned if you paint this slot as scummy because stels made a lucky shot in the RvS.

Except it wasn't Stels who made the lucky shot, it was Ty. Observe:

Hey Angry Scientist, could you explain why you don’t think there will be any scumhunting today? If you don’t believe there is going to be why shouldn’t you start?

And yes, Stels is scum. Based on the game so far, provide me with a reason that would support that statement.

What's town-Ty's motivation here??

I'm sorry it's bugging you. But to be brutally blunt, it's not a scumtell and never has been. I pretty much chose Stels name at random (the fact he may have been quieter than the others at the time and was the SE probably crossed my mind). I could honestly have chosen Drench or Ty or Neuky if I had felt so inclined, as the purpose of the question was in how they responded. Perhaps I haven't made it clear, but it's primary purpose was not to provide me with ammunition to lynch Stels with (ironically).

Also as an aside to current and future players that are looking at this game for meta, this discussion once again supports my continued usage of the RQS instead of the RVS. Even in Day 3 my RQS is still being used while the RVS has rightly been discarded as garbage.

2) Stels follows the IC on and off the Ty wagon

Stels was third to jump on after Mute (#40) and Nacho (#43), and jumped on in (#46). Then Workdawg jumped on, and obviously the conversation changed to Workdawg, which I think was sort of a distraction for town. Even back then, Nacho said in #56 that he thought Workdawg was innocent despite the hammer. Then Stels jumps off Ty's wagon right after Nacho does.

I really don't understand what you're trying to say here that implicates me as scum. Stels hopped on and off my wagon, and this makes Ty/Concerned scum? I'll respond but you need to provide me with a clearer sense of what you're trying to say.

3) Stels' list of reads w/r/t Ty

Concerned addressed it with other players, but not Ty.

Ty
ISO #0: RQS
ISO #1: Only useful thing he said here is that Workdawg and TP42 are concerned with painting a target on themselves for OMGUS.
ISO #2: Something similar to what I said about post number 1, but more SE stuff in general.
ISO #3: "I almost got lynched, why don't you show any emotions?!??!?
:O
:'(
;_;
ISO #4: More stuff again, but also asks questions.
Null-tell.

The thing that strikes me most about this is that he had already voted for Ty, and written paragraphs about why he was suspicious. Why are none of these arguments listed in his ISO, and he just gives a null-tell?

This seems like a question directed at scum Stels, who happens to be dead. If you're trying to scumhunt you need to actually say something other than give me a bunch of open-ended questions. How about you tell me why this makes me scum and then I can demonstrate how that is false (same with #2).

4) Concerned on Neuky

Concerned concludes that the last scum must be in either of the two replacement players, but also indicates a willingness to go after Neuky if that doesn't turn out well. He labels Neuky pro-town but his actual analysis of the slot is a lot more ambiguous, reads as though it could be preparing for LyLo.

Could you provide the post/quote where Concerned says this? I'm in complete agreement with Concerned that the scum is either sordros or Sundy. What I believe Concerned is trying to say (and you are hinting at) is should I somehow be completely and utterly wrong with my analysis and this game went into LyLo, every player would have to be examined thoroughly. As Neuky noted and I discussed in my last post, Neuky HAS flown under the radar and has not been pressured at all. Should the game go into LyLo (or he do something scummy today), this would have to be changed. Once again, complete agreement with Concerned here that all players need to be thoroughly scrutinized at this point. Why does this make me scummy and do you disagree with what Concerned said?

5) Concerned on Mute

Mute
So far I believe he has played fairly town and the current cases on him aren't particularly valid. The whole early table argument was a complete waste of time,

I don't have a problem with him hammering stels

and the current trend of players accusing him of "jumping on the wagon to appear more town" is ridiculous because anyone with half a brain could see this would have the opposite effect.

And a bit later:

@Mute, I do find your hammer a little bit suspicious

, did you consider the consequences of the hammer? Did you expect people to react the way they did to your hammer?

Contradiction.

I know I'm repeating myself, but once again I agree with Concerned. He (and I) knew that Mute was a terrible lynch target and was not the scum. The second quote was probably to apply pressure to Mute to get him talking so that something could be done to divert his lynch. Also Sundy, do you ever not find quicklynches to be at least "a little bit" suspicious? It's only a contradiction because you did a good job of finding two phrases used out of context, but in reality it fits with the greater continuity repeated by the slot that Mute was innocent.

6) Wants to lynch Sordros right away

I don't see why we shouldn't just lynch sordos right now.
He's certainly not worth bringing into lylo.

YES YES YES. YES a billion times over. Besides the fact sordros IS THE SCUM, I wouldn't want him in LyLo either, as he's super super scummy. This is a town tell if anything and I absolutely agree with Concerned here. I'm not sure if he ever voted sordros (probably because he DID want a little discussion before the lynch happened), but I have rectified the situation.

7) Concerned says in the last round that Ty was "one of the founding people on the Stels wagon."

The next votecount of note is the hammer, here we have (at least in my view) three of the most townie players starting the wagon with Sundy and Mute following. I'm mostly posting this to illustrate that TY was more than willing to and indeed was one of the founding people on the stels wagon

The page before he votes Stels, both Nacho and ThePlague voted Stels, so I don't think he qualifies as a "founding" member of the wagon. He's third on by my count, and trying to take Nacho down the whole way.

They had voted Stels previously, but I think discussion of a possible Stels lynch only started to materialize after I put the vote on him. In that respect, I would consider myself a, if not the, founding member of the Stels wagon as well.

I'd also like to clear up the Stels/Nacho situation as I think it's been brought up elsewhere as well. I switched to Stels at the end of Day 1 because I was almost certain Nacho or Stels was the scum. Nacho, or someone else, stated that Nacho generally doesn't do much until the endgame, so I decided to cut him a little slack and wait a day or two to get on his case again. I read a few of the games he had played and he did indeed not do much until the later days, so it made sense that I should continue to apply pressure but not actually lynch. Thus I went after Stels.

Anyway:
@Sordros, a list of analysis player by player will be helpful.

This never happened.

@Concerned, what's your response to my case?

I have given my response, though I wouldn't call it a case so much as "here's some unconnected situations that I'm going to string together and see if they have any merit."

Looking at this post before I hit submit, I do call out Sundy fairly often in a harsh tone. I'm just trying to show why certain things are very misguided and emphasize what needs to be done, but please note I'm not a grouchy mean person. You guys are awesome, I'm glad to be back.

[Ty]

Hi everyone, unfortunately I won't have the time to post a meaningful response here until Saturday due to a hectic rest of the week with some midterms thrown in. I'll be V/LA until then, but I will be here Saturday.

[Ty]

Well, here is the promised post (some of it anyways). Considering I haven’t posted today other than a placeholder V/LA post, I’ll start off by apologizing for the sordros mislynch. As I was reading through the thread I gulped when I saw Post #623, it was either ridiculously over-confident scum or misguided newbie-town. And I pretty much kicked myself when I saw him turn up town. Reflecting back on it, am I glad he was lynched yesterday? Yes and no, the fact he wasn’t scum puts us in a worse position but I have a hard time denying his inherent scumminess wouldn’t have had me push for his lynch sooner or later.

And so it all boils down to either Sundy or Workdawg. I did go through all your posts and unfortunately neither of you was the obvious town that Neuky was. I’m in a serious pickle right now and I’m going to be as complete and fully honest as I can be. The following is me essentially writing down my overall thoughts on each of you as they pop into my head.

WORKDAWG

Besides having the most ‘fun’ ISO to go through, you’re also the player that’s grown the most in this game. The problem I have is determining whether that growth is extreme newbie beginner evolving into contributing townsperson or blatant scum maturing into not-completely-obvious scum. Throughout the game most of your reads have been completely wrong and you pursued one of them (Mute) aggressively enough to stall and derail the game for a bit of time in the middle of the game. You also were extremely hesitant to board the Stels (confirmed scum) wagon at the beginning of the game. I don’t generally think new mafia players know (or feel confident enough) to bus their scum partner, especially if that partner is an SE.

However, you slowly evolved into a player that became a lot less active/aggressive. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, considering blindly swinging a sledgehammer throughout the game doesn’t really help much. Your purpose in the later days has slowly become ‘town person that needs to be persuaded to vote correctly’ and I definitely pushed hard for you and Neuky to vote for sordros. Why? Sordros’ lynch was a priority and frankly I was banking the game would be finished after yesterday with his hanging.

Now that we’re in LyLo a lot of the weight you shrugged off your shoulders the past day or two is being put back on and doubled. Posts like #633 just aren’t going to cut it anymore. Does that post have a purpose honestly, and can you give me a straightforward answer to what that might be? I understand you wanting to spark some discussion in a stalled game until I was able to post, but are you getting the same sense of wishy-washy blabbering I get from that post? It provides an opinionated recap of some of what Stels says, but you don’t USE it for anything, you just leave it there as pseudo-useful analysis. Beginner town trying to make contribution in LyLo or scum trying to appear useful, it’s hard for me to decide.

My question to you (as well as Sundy) is why have neither of you bothered to discuss the mislynch or nightkill that just happened? The sordros lynch was an extremely important part of this game and for it to be neglected by both you tells me I’m dealing with a happy scum and a town member that’s using tunnel vision – which is extremely worrisome.

Additionally, I would like you to post three reasons why Sundy is the scum and three reasons why you believe I am scum and be prepared to support them with posts and logic. Don’t use ISOs if they’re going to be a distraction from your reasoning.

Finally, I’ve just given you an honest assessment of what I think of you in this game. I’d like an honest response from you about what I’ve labeled you as and what you would think about yourself if you were in my position.

Anyways, it’s 3:40am so rest assured I’ll have Part 2 of this post up sometime tomorrow regarding Sundy and my response to his accusations (the two go hand in hand). Good night.

[Ty]

SUNDY POST #620

Blast from the past! Welcome back, Ty. Below, please find my response to your defense. Btw, I didn't find your post grouchy or mean at all. Though this site sometimes descends into annoying ad-hominem attacks, this thread has been good. However, you may not like where this post is going next.

Well that’s good, I like to grill people but I definitely want to make sure the game is enjoyable for all. Glad you can take a little heat. As for where this post is going, I can’t say it’s not expected.

1) Ty stated in his first post (and reiterated afterwards) that Stels was scum.

I went out on a limb when I first made this argument, but--fortuitously enough--the player in question has returned! Something odd: You say that RQS is better than RVS because the latter is "garbage," and the former is "still being used." But the only thing being discussed today is whether or not your question was a scum-tell. So from your perspective how does that prove RQS is more helpful? I agree that you weren't actually trying to lynch Stels with those posts, but surely that assumption is implicit in any case that links him with you, no? As for why you chose Stels, we have to take your word for it.

The second small paragraph was me being slightly obnoxious and arrogant in regards to RQS vs. RVS. With the games I’ve played here there’s generally a large commotion at the beginning about RQS vs. RVS so I feel like I have to reiterate my stance every single time. I threw that in their in case anyone ever decided to use this game as a meta against me. The fact you’re now discussing the semantics of a debate (RQS vs. RVS) that is inconsequential to me being scum suggests to me that you don’t have anything further in regards to this point.

See my #604. Basically he seems to be inside of your mind in his posts, offering detailed accounts of the way you were thinking. After all that, he still has a null-read with no comments on your ISO. You don't like when I bring up Stels' play in my case on you, but imo it's very helpful to examine known scum for patterns.[/spoiler]

I did read your #604, wherein you specifically state that these paragraphs are (correctly) not a case against me. I certainly don’t mind you bringing up Stels, considering he’s the only confirmed scum I would agree it’s helpful to examine him, however my previous point of contention still stands here.

4) Concerned on Neuky

It's not that you or Concerned are saying players need to be examined, it's that you give town-reads on a few players, suggest a few others may be scum, and then there's Neuky. For both you and Concerned, he's a player that's "under the radar," and that "hasn't been pressured." And for the record, Neuky never "noted" that he'd flown under the radar, he expressed suspicion about the vagueness of the claim. I don't disagree with you or Concerned insofar as every player needs to be examined. What I disagree with is keeping a read of a player ostensibly a town-read (notice how Concerned only bolds the part about the town read), even while simultaneously expressing ambiguities and quiet uncertainties on one player in particular, who conveniently "hasn't been pressured," and presumably won't be pressured until LyLo comes around, and you drop your town read.

You seem to conveniently drop the most obvious and relevant parts of things I’ve done or said, in this case that I’ve consistently agreed with Neuky and expressed my opinion that he was extremely pro-town throughout this entire game. He did fly under the radar, precisely because there was no need to examine him to the extent that other people needed to be pressured. Just because I said he “hadn’t been pressured” (which is true, point me to a post that says otherwise) doesn’t mean he can’t be a townsperson. To say otherwise is just stuffing words in my mouth. Finally, even if I’m virtually certain someone is town, I will always have even the smallest amount of doubt lingering in the back of my mind. Unlike one of you, I don’t have the comfort of knowing who is what for certain.

5) Concerned on Mute

So you say there's no contradiction at all, and Concerned "knew" he was town. And at the same time, the reason there's a contradiction is because he's "probably" trying to pressure Mute, all with the intention of getting him out of a hot spot.

I’m not Concerned so neither of us knows his true intention. I’m giving you my perception of what occurred basically had I been Concerned. Taking the small hiatus from this game I was annoyed that the town set its sights on Mute and annoyed that Mute was providing very little defense to a mislynch.

6) Wants to lynch Sordros right away

Workdawg defended Concerned's post saying that he didn't want a bad player in LyLo. That makes sense. But how does it make sense not to want a player in LyLo when they're super super scummy? Isn't it more of an advantage to have obvscum than a fiendish trickster?

The irony of this question now that we’re actually in LyLo is delicious. The answer to your query is yes it makes perfect sense. First, if someone is super scummy, why on earth are you keeping them until LyLo in the first place? Lynching scummy people makes sense because they’re more likely to be scum. In addition, you can see now what a huge threat having sordros in LyLo would be right now. His extreme town newbiness which reeks of scum would have made it very easy for the real scum to ensure a final mislynch. As you can see, there is absolutely no reason to have kept a scummy player at all. Though extremely disappointed by the outcome of the lynch, the fact we don’t have sordros in here gives us a much better chance of catching the last scum.

7) Is Ty a founding member of the Stels wagon?

In the pages after Nacho started the Stels bandwagon, 3 other players echoed it.

No, players asked Stels fairly generic questions to further explain a few of his posts, but please point me to a post in between Nachomamma’s post and mine where a player specifically says they are suspicious of Stels and considering lynching him. There isn’t one. The quoted posts you have show players asking some questions but none of them express enough suspicion for lynching. Whether you wish to delude yourself or not, the only point in time Stels’ lynching became a possibility was after my “leaving post.”

Honestly though, I think the fact you’re still trying to push “points” like this one is why I have such a hard time swallowing any of the points you try to make in this post. I’m open to responding to valid questions about my actions and I am willing to concede and explain where some of my actions were sketchy (see: tunneling of Nacho), but I really don’t see the validity in most, if any of these.

For example, let’s say for giggles I had absolutely nothing to do with Stels wagon and you are completely right about your so-called Point 7. Concerned was absolutely wrong about me being a founding member of the wagon. SO WHAT? DOES THIS MAKE ME SCUM? No, it’s just a quick jab to try and discredit me.

I really love my “leaving post.” I said the remaining scum would be most likely Sundy/sordros, and guess who my top suspects heading into the second to last day and LyLo are? Unfortunately I was wrong about sordros, but after writing my most recent posts I’m pretty dang confident it’s still going to hold true for this game.

RECAP

#1: Your comment on RQS/RVS is off, your 2 defenses add up to your word and the fact that you didn't want to lynch Stels right then, and you didn't explain the point of the pressure.

RVS/RQS point explained and inconsequential to argument. Movement of debate to RVS/RQS debate suggests you can’t find anything else wrong with my argument. The point of pressure of what exactly, putting the vote on Stels? As I’ve said, it wasn’t a pressure vote. It was a nudge to the town in what I thought was the right direction before I left the game.

#2 & #3: circumstantial because they rely on Stels' play, but looking at known scum is helpful

Ok cool. I’m pretty sure no-one disagrees that looking at known scum is helpful, but the fact you specifically avoided clarifying these points or asking me a specific question about them seems like they're invalid to you as well as me.

#4: I don't disagree with examining players carefully, but I don't think that's your only motive.

You fail to say what you think my motive is but that doesn’t really matter because the basic logic you try to use behind this point is wrong in theory (and practice). I will always have at least a tiny amount of doubt about every player because I am not the scum, but I am not going to give everyone a null tell because of that. Neuky, as was confirmed last night, was town and I thought this was the case (and said so) multiple times throughout the game.

#5: You say there's no contradiction and then you acknowledge there's a contradiction.

Wrong, and the amount of times you say I said something I didn’t actually say in this post is bordering on insanity. I gave you a good explanation of Concerned’s actions based on what I would have been doing in his position (which is fairly appropriate considering I AM in the same exact slot). I believe Concerned expressed disapproval at a Mute vote and prodded him to try and get a defense so that he wouldn’t be lynched. I would have been trying to do the same thing.

#6: Didn't even use the reasonable defense that Workdawg already raised

Erm, I’m fairly certain my explanation IS essentially a more detailed explanation of what Workdawg said. Workdawg says sordros should be lynched for being a “bad player” and I say he should be lynched for, if nothing else, being a terrible new town that reeks of scum. Would being a newbie town that 3 of the four other players thought was scum be considered to be bad playing? I would think so.

The larger question I have here is HOW DOES THIS EVEN MAKE ME SCUM. Not parroting another player’s logic means I’m the scum? This is a repeating pattern I see through all these points and it makes me want to pull my hair out.

#7: I think I've conclusively proved that you were not a founding member, that half of the players expressed suspicion before you did, that your muted suspicion of Stels before then was all with the larger purpose of getting Nacho and then Dawg lynched, and then you left as soon as you voted on Stels, with a vote & argument that had 10% of the effort you put into your Nacho/Dawg posts.

You neither proved I was not a founding member, that half the players expressed overt suspicion before I did, nor that finding Stels suspicious was part of a grand conspiracy to get Nacho and Workdawg lynched. In fact you haven’t even mentioned the latter theory until now.

As for your last point about your last point, no doubt my Stels vote had less effort. One, it was my leaving post so I don’t the power of multiple posts to reinforce me opinion, and finally, it was a lynch vote, not a pressure vote. I wasn’t trying to harp on every little thing Stels said, I was trying to make sure he was dead.

[Ty]

SUNDY

I thought my case had merit before, and after Ty's defense I have no doubt.

That’s ironic, because I think your ‘case’ is a pile of crap. As I mentioned previously, I’m open to legitimate queries about questionable activities, but all your stuff is circumstantial, WIFOM, putting words into my mouth, and as I said before, just a bunch of stuff thrown at me in the hopes that one catches Workdawg’s eye enough to vote for me.

The two main things I think your ‘case’ posts do a good job of showing are blatant tunneling and to an extent, buddying up on Workdawg.

One theory I have as to why so many of your points are ridiculous is that you’ve just decided to tunnel me to the nth degree. You’re throwing everything, no matter how trivial, at me and this is not good at all. If you are the town player, which I am finding more and more unlikely, then we’re screwed. You put a token post of saying you are positive Workdawg is town before waiting for me to post so you can hammer me into the ground. If you are the scum, you’re trying desperately to sway Workdawg with your tunnelvision. Considering this slot has been under intense scrutiny (approaching L-1 multiple times) since Day 1, it seems I would be a logical choice for you to be doing this to in LyLo.

And yes, I do think you’re buddying up with Workdawg to a large extent. Like I said, you’ve pretty much declared, per #632, Workdawg to be a townsperson. I know one way you would be confident enough to make that assumption- you’re the scum and you know everyone’s roles. But even now as I’m leaning more and more into the Sundy is scum category, I’m certainly not giving Workdawg a blank check as townie. Perhaps this is why I always do so terrible in LyLo, not buddying up with another person, but I’m sticking with my plan of being as open and straightforward as I can be with both the remaining players. As I’ve said, veritas vos liberabit.

WORKDAWG

First off, Post 633 was meant to both break the silence, and to help me gather my thoughts. By the time I was done analyzing the ISO, I was pretty burned out and didn't really feel like giving my overall thoughts on it.

That’s like saying I spent the past month gathering wheat from the field but I’m not going to bother baking it into bread. I respect your initiative to do so many ISO posts, but if you’re taking the time to do them make sure they have a purpose and count for something!

That said... I think there are some suspicious things in there. I think the most suspicious part is how Stels manages to maintain a null-to-townish-null read on Ty through the entirety of the game despite posting IGMEOY and votes for him. This is established in ISO posts 5 and 18. I don't see any sure signs of scumbuddying between Stels and Ty, but with two SE players as scum, I would hope they would be smart enough to avoid that.

So either I’m an obvious scumbuddy or I don’t appear scummy at all which as an SE makes me scum? I can’t say really agree with this logic at all but I understand the basic idea that you don’t want to trust me just because I wasn’t Stels lover. Fair enough, I would hope that’s the case.

It's pointless IMO to ask what other people think about this, because all that can really be drawn from it is speculation. Stels is gone, so he can't defend himself any longer. I intend to read through the game and do Ty -> Stels, Stels -> Sundy and Sundy -> Stels when I have the time though. Would you prefer I keep those ones to myself? I thought information was good for town.

No, perhaps you misunderstood what I said, but you should definitely write those down. I don’t want you not putting down your analysis of the game, I just want you to have a purpose when you do it. I can just as easily do an ISO of Stels too, but a large part of the value comes from your own thoughts on it.

I have learned A LOT this game. I think the fact that I seem to be consistently picking the wrong target is what has caused me to back off the past day. I don't mean that as "I'm picking the wrong person to focus on", but that I'm voting to lynch the wrong person. When I go back and reflect on this though, I've noticed that my main issue seems to be that both Mute and sordros have simply failed to really put up a good defense when they are pressured, and I guess that made me feel that they were guilty.

Well done, you’ve moved onto the dilemma faced by the vast majority of players in newbie games: distinguishing between newb and scum tells. The two are often intertwined and it throws a wrench into normal scum vs. town differentiation. As a town Workdawg, having Sundy and I in LyLo is going to be beneficial for you. We are both SE so we can’t hide under the newbie shield, so you mainly have to just worry about town vs. scum without the extra newb angle. As a scum Workdawg, Sundy and I still have to manage the possible scum vs. newb perspective.

A perfect example of scum vs. newb was your quickhammer. As you no doubt know by now, that was a fairly scummy thing to do. Even though that seems like a scumtell, it seems like at this point Sundy and I have attributed this to newb error (Sundy doesn’t even mention that vote in his ISO analysis of Workdawg, one of many reasons I called it out for being weak).

I've noticed that both you and Concerned have mentioned that I'm very misguided in my scumhunting, but I find it interesting that you both say that when I bring up issues with your own play. In your ISO 9, you told me to be more assertive, but then when I find something suspicious in your actions, it's misguided? In ISO 13, you referring to my post #601, the table of Stels reads. You call it "a fairly interesting post" right off the bat, but then you just start tearing it apart saying that now that Stels is gone his reads have already served their purpose. And then you again mention that I'm misguided. You never actually elaborated on what was interesting about my post.

Being Assertive =/= Being Right

I will always tell people to be more assertive because that means they are posting more which means more information is written down which means the town can make more informed judgement calls (or that their posting provides more insight). However, just because you’re being more assertive doesn’t mean you can’t also be wrong. When I said “interesting” I mainly meant the usage of a table as well as some of your stinkier WIFOM.

As you no doubt have experienced I’m more than willing to vigorously defend myself. The misguided comment stems from a long history of really missing the target from Mute to me. It’s great you were being more aggressive, but you lashed out at the wrong things, which is part of the learning process but also at times just plain incorrect.

Perhaps the best and most relevant example I can give you is Sundy’s ‘case’ post against me. Reading it over the first time instantly reminded me of some of your posts where you just latch onto a target and try to blast them into smithereens. The track record of that approach more than speaks for itself.

I'm having a hard time really figuring out if my play is bad, or if I'm just letting you and Concerned bully/"teach" me into submission. I fully admit I've made plenty of mistakes in this game, and the fact that I haven't had a good scum-read yet doesn't help... but you still seem to be the only one who has really been focusing on my playing being "misguided" which makes me not sure if I should be trusting you. I'm going to have to be taking everything you say with a heaping pile of salt now that it's down to the wire.

Your play isn’t bad, especially for a new player. As an aside, scum reading takes a lot of practice to get down and as you can tell from the sordros mishap, mistakes can still be made.

I also hope you don’t feel like I’m bullying you. This is supposed to be fun, if I’m doing something you find inappropriate let me or the mod know. I only play newbie games on this site and that’s because I love having the opportunity to teach new players a game I find really fun. As you and others complained about, I definitely was doing more teaching than scumhunting in the beginning because I wanted you all to understand the basics, but as the game continues I stop being the overprotective mother and start trying to find the scum and make sure the town wins.

I’m not sure if I already said this, but I definitely tried to push you and Neuky hard for the sordros lynch. You probably felt like I was trying to make Neuky and you vote how I wanted you to that day because to be quite frank, I was. As I’ve repeated numerous times I had (misplaced) confidence that sordros was scum and I was hoping one final push could end the game.

LyLo is a different story. I said in my first of this wonderful three part series post, a lot more pressure and responsibility is being put on your shoulders now. Assuming you’re town, I want you to be voting alongside me but the buck does stop here.

I hope you’re taking everything either one of us says with a pile of salt now. I no doubt wouldn’t be blindly following me if I were in your shoes but I do hope you realize that I am trying to purge everything I’m thinking into my posts to provide you with as much open information as I can.

Anyways, it’s 4am and as my amount of thinking comes to a grinding halt I’m going to wrap up. As you can probably tell from the change of tone in my last few points, I do think Sundy is more likely to be the scum than Workdawg at this point. In no way is that set in stone, however I do look forward to reading your responses.

[Ty]

Hey, have an exam today but I should be able to post sometime tomorrow. Thanks.

[Ty]

DAY THREE & FOUR

As I touched upon previously, I think the biggest indicator that gives away Sundy as the scum is how he’s acted so far today. Post #632 was a token assessment of Workdawg which is best summarized as “Workdawg is too newbie to have done anything serious as scum, I’m sure he’s town.” I can tell you that is NOT how the town operates in a LyLo situation. I was pretty dang confident you were town too, but there was no way I was putting all of my eggs in the same basket like that. The only person that’s going to be confident in LyLo is someone that knows who is what role. The only person with that information is a scum team member, in this case Sundy.

Additionally, here is the beginning of my post #613

There's been noted suspicion of this slot primarily from Sundy so this is my response. It should be noted I heavily dislike the so called "shotgun approach" which is throw a dozen circumstantial situations out at a target and hope one or two resonate with the other players. Though I am almost completely positive sordros is the scum, Sundy is indeed my distant second. Whereas sordros is blatantly scummy, Sundy seems more passively scummy and the shotgun approach is something that just irks me.

First, this shotgun approach is the reason you seem to think I’ve written off cases against me as “blasphemy.” It’s really frustrating to have accusations with no credence hurled at you like this. Take a read through all his points again; do any of those honestly paint me as a scum member? Even Sundy admits some of them are just plain circumstantial. The first point he validates simply because he “doesn’t believe me” when I said there really was no reason for me using Stels’ name in the RQS (RANDOM questioning stage). As I’ve said, the only thing the “shotgun approach” does is muddy my name. If I strung together ten small out-of-context quirks of any player in this game I could “prove” they were scum too.

However, you’ll notice I said Sundy is passively scummy and a distant second compared to sordros. Looking back on it, I do think my biggest mistake in this game was going after the overly-blatant scum tells/slips. Sordros and you definitely did some pretty questionable things throughout this game and I think I put too much focus on them. As Sundy has reminded us more than once, he is an SE and more experienced players are definitely more able to pull off the passive scum approach. Stels sure wasn’t obvious about it, and neither was Sundy.

Hmm. The fact that two days have passed without Workdawg hammering takes me from 95% to 99.9% sure that he is good. Basically I cannot imagine a single scenario where such is not the case. Maybe he was some kind of a sleeper who wanted to be tricky by defending his scum-buddy. But in that case, there's no way an experienced player doesn't hammer right now and win the game.

His most recent post in LyLo. Notice how he justifies Workdawg is town AFTER placing his vote against me. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that Workdawg is town after having the opportunity to hammer and win the game if he wasn’t. The main difference is I had to do this BEFORE placing a vote. Unlike Sundy, I didn’t have the luxury of knowing the alignment of who I was voting.

Also:
Ty wrote:I would like you to post three reasons why Sundy is the scum and three reasons why you believe I am scum


What subtle word choice.

This has rubbed me the wrong way throughout LyLo. Sundy condescendingly mocks me for writing I am the townsperson. Am I supposed to be afraid to broadcast being a townie in LyLo?

DAY ONE

I don’t think you included this in your ISO analysis Workdawg, but Stels’ vote on me in the first day brought me to L-1. Why do scum like to be third or fourth on a wagon? It attracts the least amount of attention. They don’t want to get blamed for starting a wagon on town, and they certainly don’t want to place the hammer which is often the most controversial vote (as can be seen every day of this game), but they DO want the game to progress with a lynched townsperson. If Stels’ scum spot placed an L-1 vote, how many times has the asano/Sundy spot done it? FIVE TIMES. Asano did it once in Day One to Mute, Sundy did it in Day One to Mute, Day Two to Mute, Day Three to me, and Day Four to me. Each of these times it was on a person who was under the most flak at the moment, whether it be Stels, Mute or me. These votes brought that person to the chopping block, but let the ultimate blame for a mislynch fall on the townie who decided to hammer.

To summarize, Sundy and his slot has spent the game taking a passive role and voting whoever was suspicious to L-1. Sundy then spends the past two days trying to further the suspicions against me with an approach that's more helpful to someone trying to get someone lynched not scumhunt. This spot has been an experienced scum person hidden enough so as to not attract much attention while painting various members of the town as scum, NOT a newbie town player too scared to get actively involved in this game.

VOTE: Sundy

[Ty]

Hey, midterms are over now. I'll have a post up tonight or tomorrow, thanks.

[Ty]

I've thought some more about this. I want to give Ty a chance to really make a case. Maybe he's scum and Sundy has just played well enough that there's no chance of that, and if that's the case, then I we'll lynch Ty, but I want to give him a shot. All the other times Ty has felt strongly about the scumminess of a player, he put together well written case, with multiple points and sound arguments. I didn't see that in his case against Sundy above.

If that’s the case, the town is SOL. I stand by all the points I’ve made today and I’ve tried to make them as clear as possible. And guess what, I’m not going to have a case with a dozen different points to make against Sundy because he’s an experienced player and knows how to play scum, which is radically different from the new players in the game which are much easier to tear apart. One of the main points I’ve tried to demonstrate throughout LyLo is the ridiculousness of Sundy’s claims. Instead of actually looking at his points from where I’m coming from you’ve basically called me arrogant for disregarding his points as invalid. BECAUSE THEY ARE. The fact absolutely none of his points are remotely feasible is ones of the biggest indicators he is the scum.

I’m glad you’re giving me this chance to demonstrate my innocence and why Sundy is scum but from your posts it seems like you’ve pretty much made up your mind. It’s disheartening but before you make your decision honestly just look through both of our ISOs one last time. One of us has no problem being outspoken throughout the game while trying to find the remaining scum while the other has cruised to LyLo hiding in the shadows and avoiding almost any sort of suspicion. I just really hope you can see that.

Without further ado…

I just don't see why a town player would ask someone else to do the scum hunting for them. One of the fundamentals of Mafia is that the Town has truth on their side while Scum have to make up reasons to mislynch a town player, right?

You have several incorrect assumptions in these statements. First and foremost, I wasn’t asking you to do scumhunting for me, in each case I was asking you to do it for yourself. In my ISO 1 I was trying to get new players adjusted to being able to scumhunt so I used that as one of my questions in RQS. However I’m more concerned with the fact that you’re falling right into Sundy’s trap and giving my ISO 1 RQS questions this sort of merit. One of Sundy’s fundamental arguments is that my RQS discussed Stels making me scum and you’ve seemed to agree with him. As I’ve said over and over, the purpose of RQS is comparable to RVS. Workdawg, you voted Stels in the RVS, do you think it would be reasonable for me to use that against you in LyLo as a reason for your lynch? I really, really hope not. My ISO 16 also was directed at getting you to scumhunt for yourself. I was worried you would buckle under the weight of having to make a decision that decides the game and I wanted you to have a solid logically based background for your decision. Ironically, I don’t think you ever did lay out the three reasons against either of us, but you did manage to distort the post where I challenge you to think critically and for yourself as a reason why I am guilty? I’m being honest here, I wouldn’t want you to do my scumhunting in the first place, which is specifically why I asked you have a purpose when posting ISOs of players. I really could care less what you think of Neuky’s 10th post, but I would be interested to hear how Neuky’s ISO themes make me/Sundy seems more likely to be the last scum.

Additionally, your question/statement about game theory is not entirely correct. The scum don’t have to make up reasons to lynch someone, often they are given reasons that can be used to lynch town. For example, say an extremely scummy looking yet actually townie new player says something atrociously scummy. The real scum doesn’t have to “make up” a reason, they can simply use the new player’s scummy behavior as one. The hard part as town is differentiating between a person presenting this evidence in order to get rid of scum or to mislynch.

This just seems to me like a scum move to try and get a town player on their side. If I give you a reason Sundy is scum, then all you have to do is agree with me and it seems like a genuine reason to lynch someone.

WIFOM. I’m just a townie that really wanted you to analyze the situation and come to a logical decision based on the information you’re provided. I’ll be honest, with the Mute debacle and misfirings from you “cannon” I haven’t seen much solid scumhunting from you this entire game. You’re doing a good job as a newbie and it is to be expected, but you’re in the most difficult position of a Mafia game and I wanted to give you all the help you could get.

This combined with the other things said before (Stels' reads and other interaction between the two, my analysis of the last NK) have pushed me right up the edge here. Ty hasn't done a very good defending himself in my eyes and his case against Sundy is extremely weak. The evidence against Ty is overwhelming compared to what has been presented against Sundy.

Maybe I haven’t done as thorough of a job disproving each of Sundy’s bogus points as I thought I had, but I thought I’ve done a very solid job conveying why each point is explicitly wrong. I’m not going to repeat myself here, I already disproved his point #1 (once again) a few paragraphs above this. Most of his other points are circumstantial tidbits that are being thrown in to muddy my actions. I’d challenge you to reread each point he makes with an open mind and ask yourself if it’s a scumtell. I’ve already done it and the answer is no, hence why I was so blunt when addressing the points.

I’m surprised you find my points so weak. I take a quality over quantity approach especially in regards to Sundy, who is experienced enough to avoid making a line of silly errors and mistakes. However, you should realize that patterns are one of the strongest scumtells around (take a look on the mafiascum wiki, it’s actually in there). Voting third/fourth on a wagon was actually a well-known scumtell for the longest time. A history of voting in the middle for an entire game is not random at all, as you and Sundy are making it out to be. I don’t know about you, but for me that makes the offender a new player that is unable to scumhunt at all so he’s forced to just join an established wagon or an experienced scum that is capable of avoiding the suspicion of starting a wagon and placing the hammer. Sundy obviously falls into the latter category, hence why I took the time to point this out.

Finally, I also think his major buddying to you in LyLo is a strong indicator of his scumminess. You never really addressed this point but in my previous post I asked why a town player would buddy up to another person in LyLo like that. The answer is they wouldn’t. The only person who can do that is someone who knows the alignment of the remaining players, i.e. the scum.

I thought this was a funny complaint in your post. In the post you're quoting, I had ALREADY given my explanation for the town-read, and in fact you had already analyzed it above!

Did you even bother to read my post or did you just cherry pick random phrases and try to attack them?

Interesting phrasing. I thought in your read on me, I was your distant second behind Sordros??? Sure you might have been unsure about him, but in terms of your read on me, didn't you say you found me suspicious? Except in reality you were confident I'm town, because you've known exactly who is and is not town the whole time since you're scum.

Really? The sentence of mine you quoted was referring to Workdawg, not you. So I’m going to go with you cherry picked phrases to manipulate and then make that post.

Workdawg, just look at Sundy’s post where he misinterprets one of my quotes and calls another a “funny complain.” No counteranalysis, no defense, no ANYTHING. That brings me to another thing. Take a look through LyLo and just look at the general feel for our posts. I see a scum who has basically detached himself from the game and a town player who’s put a lot of time and words into coherently explaining himself. I’ve suffered through multiple engineering midterms the past few weeks, but I’ll be damned if the town loses on my watch.

With that, I ask you to reread our posts, particularly in LyLo. I will be able to answer any question you may have until the deadline, but ultimately at this point most of the work is on you. I wish you the best of luck.

And with that, goodnight.

[Ty]

Well played Sundy.

To the rest of the town, I'm sorry for contributing to our loss. Short of a miracle though Workdawg, I really don't know what you expected me to say to change your mind, which sounded like it had already been made up.

Point 1 is based on the RANDOM questioning stage.
Point 2 was WIFOM.
Point 3 is very subjective, I felt I put a lot more effort into LyLo than a Sundy who seemed very detached from the game.

After Drench has ended the game and I have the time I'll provide more feedback on the game.

[Ty]

Well here are my endgame analyses on players...

WORKDAWG

Well crap... sorry town.
I agree that Ty was putting more into the end of the game than Sundy was, and he's right that I was all but convinced he was scum up until the end... but I just didn't see Sundy's actions as very scummy.

Sundy and I both knew exactly what you were thinking which was the problem in LyLo. I'm not sure you ever seriously considered lynching Sundy at the end, I feel your "giving me more time to make a case" statement was to really just put your mind at ease about lynching me unless I came up with some outrageous game-changing evidence ("Wait a second, Sundy admitted to being the scum in Post 39!" ). I think you can understand why Sundy was talking as little as possible, he didn't want your attention to LyLo to switch to him, he wanted to make sure it was on me the entire time.

As Sundy will agree, I had the stronger arguments in the end, voting patterns and buddying are actually fairly good tells especially in the endgame like that. But no matter how strong my arguments are it doesn't matter if the person making the decision didn't agree, which you didn't. That's why I kept telling you to reread our posts (especially LyLo) with an open mind repeatedly - there was no way I was going to be able to present the kind of evidence you wanted, so I was hoping you would go back and chage your mind after rereading. It was a longshot, but I think the thing you failed to understand was that an argument presented against a newbie mafia (sordros) and an experienced scum (Sundy) were not going to be the same. Whereas newbies have a mile long list of mistakes, experienced players are much more subtle and require a helluva lot more intuition when scumhunting.

Finally, one last major mistake I noticed was your WIFOM logic on the Day Three (before LyLo) Night Kill. I seem to have skipped over that post until now but it's rife with the kind of WIFOM logic Sundy was probably silently cheering about. Contrary to what you thought, Sundy made the correct choice in NK'ing Neuky. The reason was because Neuky was by far the best scumhunting newbie player and did a fairly good job of scumhunting throughout the game (frankly I was surprised you didn't NK him earlier Sundy, but I was impressed with your Det/Doc kills). You, on the other hand, were much easier to manipulate (I felt like you turned into a shell of your former self after D1). Both Neuky and you stated your suspicion of me after sordros' lynch, but I think I would have been able to have a much better chance of convincing Neuky that Stels was scum in the LyLo based on arguments alone (Neuky, thoughts?).

In terms of overall gameplay, I see a lot of potential in you Workdawg. You have the weapons, but to continue the analogy used in the game, you kept firing them at the wrong people which severely hurt the town. Once you set someone in your scope (such as Mute or myself), you just couldn't let go and that is detrimental to the town. I think with more practice you'll get a better sense of what is scummy and what isn't to prevent another LyLo-esque situation. You were put in the position very few want to be put in at the end though, so my hat is off to you for trying your best.

NEUKY

Haha, I really thought you were a great player. You did a good job throughout and as I said before, you were definitely pro-town from day one and I was surprised you weren't NK'ed earlier. Your scumhunting was very good for being new to the site and I found myself agreeing with a lot of what you were saying. In fact, had to prevent myself from agreeing with you so much because I didn't want others to think I was buddying up to you.

STELS

Dang dude, you had a really tough break Day One and I bet we were both surprised you became the lynch nominee like that. I think your analysis of the other players definitely cemented you as a likely scum target though I can't deny I was a little surprised to see you turn up scum like that.

NACHOMAMMA

Looking back I was more rude than I needed to be (sorry!) but I was glad I got you answering questions at least. I still don't understand your strategy of doing nothing until endgame which is what through me off for the longest time. You weren't really around or said enough for me to really comment on you but I really didn't think you were the detective at all.

SUNDY

I'll be honest, the second I saw sordros turn up town I realized I would be fighting an extremely uphill battle against you for the rest of the game. You were indeed suspicious but sordros just threw me for a loop and I took a gamble that contributed to the town's loss. You did a great job of avoiding any suspicion throughout the game (even when we were talking about Neuky needed to be examined more, how ironic). Your endgame play was well done with Workdawg. Your arguments were complete baloney though and I think my desire to dismantle each point gave me the more aggressive demeanor which irritated Workdawg. Your night kills were unbelievable, I really would like to know how you were able to find and take out the town power roles like that. Otherwise, well done, sir.

CONCERNED

Not sure if you'll be reading this, but I was super glad you were the one to take over my spot. Our thought patterns mirrored EXACTLY and I was really glad to see you doing what I would have been doing. I hope you don't mind me taking over again at the end though. I wasn't very active but I wanted to be able to participate in the endgame and rely on myself to get a town victory. When I get more active I would like to play in a mafia game with you

THEPLAGUE

Wow, it seems like I haven't talked to you in aggeeeesss. You were a pretty obvious town player and I can't say I was surprised to see you NK'ed. You're definitely improving especially from your previous games and I think the key will just be to keep playing games and getting more practice. Good luck!

NABEN

YOU SUCK. Nuff said.