Mini 1105: A Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[Empking]

VV: I voted Pappums because I saw Jerbs distancing himself from Pappums. I considerred it enough for a vote before I got a feel for the game.
I honestly misattributed the push and the mutual FOSs to the wrong pair of players. I should have begun with Rob on the scum side.

[RobCapone]

Can you 3 explain what I am missing about that post and why you think that automatically makes me scum, cause I'm not scum and I don't see anything wrong with what I did

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

You claimed that, even after Jerbs's flip, you didn't see good reason to believe he was scum and that he had you fooled. However, you also said that you were sure VP was bussing Jerbs, which would require you to have believed Jerbs to be scum.

[RobCapone]

let's try it this way, this is what I said BEFORE Jerbs was lynched and what I was referring to in that statement

Excellent. If Jerbs flips scum and I wake up dead tomorrow look very closely at Zdenek/Rob as potential buddies.

if he flips scum I am looking at the possible bussing attempt by VP, VP had not cast hardly any suspicion on him all game and than votes to put him at L-1 based off a huge wall of speculation he did.

but we will see what happens.

now here is my quote

2. Nobody made a convincing case on Jerbs,

you can go back and look at my history and I do not normally just vote for somebody without a valid reason and

I still don't see one even after his lynch

and I know he is scum, he had me fooled.

The biggest issue I had with it was the whole speculation of the day kill by VP and than how he hopped on the Jaerbs wagon late, I was so sure he was trying to

Bus his buddy

, I try not to rely on speculation very much and that is basically what the Jerbs wagon came from.

I was not saying I do not find a reason for Jerbs being scummy because I can go back now and point out things for sure. I struck out the part about my meta because it interupts the flow of the sentence I was trying to say. I did not see anyone make a convincing case for Jerbs and looking back I still don't see anyone who made a convincing case for his lynch.

if you read it, it is clearly obvious that is what I was saying.

My meta is and can be confirmed by looking through my games, to have a case that has a leg to stand on, if we are lynching somebody I want to see valid reasons from people and only 2, yes 2 people posted anything valid enough and the rest just hopped on. For all we know scum hopped on to bus their partners.

which is why I went with pappums, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2732119
pappums seems to be following jebs but later he seems to distance from him and than votes him because of a "compromise vote"

when I ask pappums to explain his votes, he basically repeats what I said in my question.

I asked

Can you explain why these 3 were suspicious? The only one you really seem set on was Ross and your reasons for him were incredibly weak. You don't really post much on the other 2 yet you seem perfectly willing to vote both of them.

he responds -

my reasons for suspecting rw were sound. the other two were compromise lynches since rw wasnt going to happen.

he doesn't say that he wants to vote either of them because they are scummy he just gives up his hopes of a Ross wagon and decides to basically follow the pack.

IF Jerbs had flipped town

you guys would be all over his ass for lynching the town cop but he wasn't, he was scum fair enough but did he KNOW he was scum? What is pro-town about a compromise vote?

In this game you vote for who you think is scum and he doesn't really cast any real suspicions on either of those 2 people and once agar was gone he doesn't decide to push harder for his ross wagon, he just starts asking people why were people voting for Agar and jerbs.

he seems to me to have NO INTEREST in scum hunting until today when he finally does something credible by attacking Zde for going after Llama (which is totally justified imo)

I think you guys just misunderstood what I was saying

to repeat, I am not saying that I can't find a reason why jerbs is scum, I could not find anyone making a valid case for him. I believe I have also said that in these posts

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2733247
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2736691
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2736720
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2739568

[Zdenek]

lohoooooolz. idk what game you are playing, mate. how exactly did i 'ignore the details of whats going on'?

Let's review:

alot of seemingly pro-town things can come from scum since they are trying to emulate town, but this dosent mean that acting pro-town is scummy

I am not saying that acting pro-town is scummy, just that the way LlamaGod was acting protown can be scummy.

llamagod had to vote for one of them, and just happened to vote for scum. your point?

Read my post, I made my point a few lines down.

he doesn't. this is a good way for scum to get another mislynch, so llamagod was pointing out that this may be the case. he never said he 'knows' this to be the case

Do you think he would be stupid enough to say that he knows this to be the case? My point is that the statement was unqualified.

agar flipped town. this can lead one to come to these sorts of conclusions based upon interactions with other players. its not like he started pushing jerbs harder. agar was gone, so there was only one viable lynch at the time.

This is fluff and misses the point.

or he wanted jerbs to claim? what kind of communication could go on between them from jerbs claiming?

Why ask twice? (I am considering saying that we need Jerbs to claim is asking). Scum will ask their buddy to claim, in the hopes that they will get the message and fake-claim.

Rain, I think that most cases in mafia are riddled with speculation.

lol at RobCapone's meta read.

1. its basically the same thing.
2. i read your post, including a few lines down, and i do not see your point. what was it exactly?
3. how is it unqualified? he was pointing out that this could be the case. there is nothing scummy about it.
4. no its not, that is the way i see things.
5. idk. maybe. i suppose it is a possibility. i dont see it though.

1. It is "basically the same thing" is basically my point. LlamaGod was trying to act townish by letting everyone know what the vote count was at, and he did it twice in a row. This is an easy thing to do and it is non-confrontational. Not every pro-town thing has these qualities, so these two things are not basically the same. I think that "trying to act townie" is a fairly reasonable scum tell, and I think that it is unreasonable to suggest that any two ways of acting townie are basically the same.

2. Here is my point:

Bussing a scum buddy, while pushing a townie lynch is a common scum tactic.

3. Go back and read LlamaGod's post, and show me where he qualified his prediction. Hint: he didn't. This is hardly the main point.

4. I disagree. I think statements like:

agar flipped town. this can lead one to come to these sorts of conclusions based upon interactions with other players.

is fluff because you are stating something that is obviously true.

[RobCapone]

I am really annoyed at all the people who are just sitting in the background

@ mod maybe a few prods are in order?

Tasky and Elleran are 48 hours without posting
Ross has not posted well over 72 hours

thanks

[Tasky]

Tasky and Elleran are 48 hours without posting

ha.

do you think lurking indicates scummyness?

[LlamaGod]

Hrm, now leaning toward Zdenek or Ellibereth as scummier than Rob;
I agree with Emp that Rob's defense has been good so far.
Rob's tone and specifics haven't bothered me, it's just his actions seem consistent with scum.
I can see how his FOS on Jerbs after a weird post makes sense with preferring other lynches.
Zdenek seems scummy due to being on the wrong wagons, attacking me today, not mentioning Rob when he's the main topic of discussion (hoping he'll get lynched instead, I'd guess), not mentioning Jerbs substantially yesterday, Jerbs' interaction with Dizzle looking like scum trying to get a buddy to post more...
I would believe Ellibereth/Zdenek/Jerbs since Ellibereth seems like the type to be fully willing to bus.
My other head thinks Elli is scum and is unsure about Zden; thinks he may be misguided town.
We need more RW here. He was caught either being wrong or lying and needs to explain himself and contribute more.

Unvote; vote ZDENEK

[RobCapone]

Tasky and Elleran are 48 hours without posting

ha.

do you think lurking indicates scummyness?

yes I do actually

[Zdenek]

LlamaGod is copying Empking to a point that I would say is ridiculous, and obviously scummy.

Vote: LlamaGod

Here are the relevant posts:

This is a primary reason I find it extremely likely one or both of Rob/Zdenek is scum.

LG states his reads.

Town
1.Robcapone
9. Rosswilliam

Leaning Town
10. Zdenek Dizzle
12. Ellibereth
7. Llamagod (FakeGod and Llamarble hydra)


Leaning Scum
11. Vigilante Ventriloquist Carrotcake
3. Rain Mute

Scum
8. Tasky - His change of heart regarding Jerbs ewhen Jerbs was lynched.
13. Pappums rat - Jerbs was busy distancing him.

Vote: Tasky

Empking states his: notice Rob is town and Tasky is scum.

Just ISOed Rob. His posting sounds good/has a town feel, . . .

LG says that Rob has a town feel.

Yeah. I took a gap halfway through reading this game with no notes. Swap Tasky and Rob on my list of reads.

Empking changes his read on Rob to scum.

Oh this is really good, I didn't get it the first time. Rob claims he thought VP was bussing a buddy even before the lynch (implying a fair amount of certainty of scumJerbs) but didn't see any convincing case on Jerbs.
VOTE: Robcapone

LG follows suit.

Vote: Zdenek

Rob's last post screams town. Zdenek's on the otherhand scream bandwagoning, subtlly attacking scum.

Empking votes me.

Zdenek seems scummy due to being on the wrong wagons, attacking me today, not mentioning Rob when he's the main topic of discussion (hoping he'll get lynched instead, I'd guess), not mentioning Jerbs substantially yesterday, Jerbs' interaction with Dizzle looking like scum trying to get a buddy to post more...
I would believe Ellibereth/Zdenek/Jerbs since Ellibereth seems like the type to be fully willing to bus.
My other head thinks Elli is scum and is unsure about Zden; thinks he may be misguided town.
We need more RW here. He was caught either being wrong or lying and needs to explain himself and contribute more.
Unvote; vote ZDENEK

LG follows Empking again.

[Empking]

Llama; Please respond to Zdenek's post.

[LlamaGod]

Uh, this
"Just ISOed Rob. His posting sounds good/has a town feel, . . ."
Is a LAUGHABLY OBSCENE MISREPRESENTATION because in the rest of that post I make a case against Rob.
THE NEXT WORD AFTER THAT QUOTED BIT IS "BUT"
Rob was on my list of scumreads since Jerbs flipped scum.
On my most recent reread I could see how he would behave as he has as town, and I feel he has defended well.
And part of the reason for my townread on Guderian/Emp in the first place has been that they have tended to agree with me which makes me think we have a similar town perspective on events.

I have wanted to lynch one of Rob / Zdenek / Ellibereth all today, and have been trying to decide which one is best.
I started the day more suspicious of Rob but after Zden's ATROCIOUS case against me and Rob's good defense, I have moved to Zdenek.

[Empking]

Yeah, I've checked for myself. My vote will not move from Zdenek today.

[Zdenek]

Uh, this
"Just ISOed Rob. His posting sounds good/has a town feel, . . ."
Is a LAUGHABLY OBSCENE MISREPRESENTATION because in the rest of that post I make a case against Rob.
THE NEXT WORD AFTER THAT QUOTED BIT IS "BUT"

It's not a misrepresentation and the fact that the word but is irrelevant. I contend that you are changing your reads to match Empking's, but that you are not so stupid as to so severely alter your read on someone from scum to town in a single post.

[Ellibereth]

sorry, i forgot about this.
Just Got home, will catch up

[Rain]

Dizzle looked scummy. Zdenek was kinda iffy, but now demonstrated a fair level of scumhunting. I don't think I'll vote for him today, will reconsider lynching him after Ellibereth fiips.

In the event that Zdenek flips town today, LlamaGod and Empking ought to be looked at. Zdenek's point (the similarities in their opinion) is undeniable. I'd say they're either both town, or both scum. Currently, I find the former likelier.

@Vigilante Ventriloquist
Not distancing myself from Rob. He's in fact one of my town reads, I have no need to vote for him.

You call it buzzword, I call it correct terminology.

@MOD

I think a vote count is in order please.

[Ellibereth]

I have SAT's tomorrow. After that it's rocketreshowuptime.
BUT FOR NOW.

Dizzle looked scummy. Zdenek was kinda iffy, but now demonstrated a fair level of scumhunting. I don't think I'll vote for him today, will reconsider lynching him after Ellibereth fiips.

In the event that Zdenek flips town today, LlamaGod and Empking ought to be looked at. Zdenek's point (the similarities in their opinion) is undeniable. I'd say they're either both town, or both scum. Currently, I find the former likelier.

Why are you saying you'll reconsider his alignment on my flip and looking at something assuming his alignment. >.> Shouldn't you be looking at it if I fip town or scum etc.?

I have wanted to lynch one of Rob / Zdenek / Ellibereth all today,

I have town on two of those and one giving me headache due to the Rossaffair.

Voting for llamasucks.

Ellibereth seems like the type to be fully willing to bus.

Correct.

Tasky seems to want to call Rob out for the thing that happened at the really start of the game? My guess from the tone of the question. don't like that much from context but we'll see...

morecoming

[pappums rat]

Uh, this
"Just ISOed Rob. His posting sounds good/has a town feel, . . ."
Is a LAUGHABLY OBSCENE MISREPRESENTATION because in the rest of that post I make a case against Rob.
THE NEXT WORD AFTER THAT QUOTED BIT IS "BUT"

It's not a misrepresentation and the fact that the word but is irrelevant.

I contend that you are changing your reads to match Empking's, but that you are not so stupid as to so severely alter your read on someone from scum to town in a single post.

actually... yes it is, and the word 'but' and rest of his post

is

relevant. you changed the meaning of that quote by cutting off the rest of it, and in my eyes that is a misrep.

rob has defended himself well, so i will

unvote

. im not willing to vote zdenek yet until i have more evidence that he actually scum and not just playing like scum.

llama and empking's similarities is noted by myself as well, but i think it is likely that they are just seeing what i saw from rob (good defense of himself and sounding townie).

[LlamaGod]

I need to think more about Ross because he clearly said something that wasn't true (I'd been thinking mistake, but maybe he and Jerbs were both scum? need to read more) and "gosh, I really really think Jerbs was town" sounds totally ingenuine.

Just ISOed Rob. His posting sounds good/has a town feel, but who he is suspicious of at different times seems to make more sense if he's scum and he was not pro Jerbslynch even near the end, suggesting Tasky and Pappums as alternatives despite not showing a whole lot of interest in either of them previously. This conveniently agreed with who Jerbs was suspicious of and Pappums was the player I had most recently expressed willingness to lynch other than Jerbs/Agar, so he seemed like a good candidate for a new counterwagon.

I'll also requote this:

damn I hate when there is any sort of weather condition because my DSL takes a crap, not going to be able to do the readthrough that I wanted on my phone but I am going back to my earlier vote

That last post by Jerbs has me scratching my head

FOS: Jerbs

Vote Agar

Then there's this from Jerbs.

Rosswilliamcasestuff

Vote: RossWilliam

@VV

Why would RossWilliam being scum make Tasky town? They just got into a little argument. That has no influence on whether or not they are scum or town

@Rob

Where are you? It's clear you're posting elsewhere. Lurking is bad for town, and a common way for scum to hide

FOS: Rob

So we have what could be bidirectional FOS:scumbuddy, vote somebody else. Also Jerbs was pushing hard enough on Ross to make me think the two weren't scumbuddies, but that's hard to be sure on.

At this point I think Rob is not unlikely to be scum, particularly since both of those FOSes seem to be of the "you just did something scummy, I'm not going to vote you yet but step up your game!" variety. Robscum would also explain the baltarkill pretty well; Baltar was clearly suspicious of Rob after Rob said Baltar would look suspicious regardless of how the lynch went down.

Uh, this
"Just ISOed Rob. His posting sounds good/has a town feel, . . ."
Is a LAUGHABLY OBSCENE MISREPRESENTATION because in the rest of that post I make a case against Rob.
THE NEXT WORD AFTER THAT QUOTED BIT IS "BUT"

It's not a misrepresentation and the fact that the word but is irrelevant. I contend that you are changing your reads to match Empking's, but that you are not so stupid as to so severely alter your read on someone from scum to town in a single post.

BS!
You accuse me of finding Rob town on grounds of that post, quoting that line for "proof."
THE ENTIRE REST OF THAT POST IS A CASE AGAINST ROB, AND IT CONCLUDES WITH ME SAYING I FOUND IT REASONABLY LIKELY ROB WAS SCUM. EVEN THE REST OF THAT SENTENCE SAYS I FIND ROBS ACTIONS MORE CONSISTENT WITH SCUM THAN WITH TOWN. So how is "but" irrelevant???

You are trying to argue that at the time of this post I thought Rob was town and that I changed my mind after EmpKing posted, which is utterly false. And how would that be scummy anyway? Listening to other players' (especially townreads) ideas and taking them into consideration is part of playing well.

Preview edit: Looks like Pappums got there first. But I'll post this anyway since it makes things clear.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Requesting Replacement

I can't give this game anywhere near as much attention as I thought I could and at this point, I'm really not able to post as much as this game demands. Sorry about this.

[Zachrulez]

3rd vote count of day 2:

Zdenek - 3 (Robcapone, Empking, Llamagod)
Robcapone - 2 (Tasky, Vigilante Ventrioquist)
Llamagod - 1 (Zdenek)
Ellibereth - 1 (Rain)
Rosswilliam - 1 (Ellibereth)

Not voting: 2 (Rosswilliam, Pappums rat)

With 10 alive it's 6 to lynch

Ross has been prodded.
Looking for a Vigilante Ventrioquist replacement.

Day 1 will end no later than Sunday Jan 30th at 5pm CST

[pappums rat]

zdenek, i would like you to respond to llamagod's last post. i think it definitively shows that you misrepresented him and i would like you to explain why is does not.

[Zdenek]

BS!
You accuse me of finding Rob town on grounds of that post, quoting that line for "proof."
THE ENTIRE REST OF THAT POST IS A CASE AGAINST ROB, AND IT CONCLUDES WITH ME SAYING I FOUND IT REASONABLY LIKELY ROB WAS SCUM. EVEN THE REST OF THAT SENTENCE SAYS I FIND ROBS ACTIONS MORE CONSISTENT WITH SCUM THAN WITH TOWN. So how is "but" irrelevant???

You are trying to argue that at the time of this post I thought Rob was town and that I changed my mind after EmpKing posted, which is utterly false. And how would that be scummy anyway? Listening to other players' (especially townreads) ideas and taking them into consideration is part of playing well.

I think you were in the process of changing your reads to match Empking's, knowing full well that you couldn't do it in one post. That line at the beginning gives you an excuse in case anyone ever called you out on your changing your reads.

I am trying to argue that you are scum, who already knows Rob's alignment, and have chosen someone to copy reads from. I have seen scum copy reads from other players in the past, and I think you are doing it here, especially since you didn't call Empking out on his original set of reads which differed so much from yours or when he later changed them.

[LlamaGod]

Where does "already knows Rob's alignment" come from??
I'd like to point out that beyond the absurdity of saying my case-against-Rob-post is "preparing to argue Rob is town" based on the less important half of a single line, and the absurdity of accusing me of being a "read-copying-scum," (I've never heard of such a thing, unless you mean sheeping which I clearly have not been doing) Empking's post where he changes his mind on Rob to finding him scummy comes a couple minutes after my case on Rob.
My post where I vote Rob after rereading Tasky's post literally comes the minute after Empking decides to flip his townread on Rob to a scumread. I was clearly writing it before Empking posted. Empking then votes Rob 10 minutes after I do. So the idea that I'm copying him actually factually makes no sense.
We do, however, have similar reads, which is part of the reason I think he's town.

Time to collect the case against Zdenek together.

[LlamaGod]

Hehehe, Zden is so obvscum at this point that I'm starting to think he's trying to intentionally get lynched in such a way as to make a buddy look town (Pappums?).

Primary reasons Zdenek is scum:
Fails to mention Jerbs in his "I just got here this is what I think" post when Jerbs was a primary lynch candidate.
He also votes Agar with reasoning that he states in the same post is null at a time when the lynch was Agar or Jerbs. Actually that post is terrible and I'm going to destroy it in detail next.
All he says during the Jerbs wagon->lynch is essentially that "if the scum made the daykill then Jerbs is probably town."
Now today he's tunneling me with an egregiously weak case.

Dizzle wasn't exactly a beacon of towniness; he lurked and wagoned RW to L-2 early.
Dizzle's play was defensive and not scumhunty.

Jerbs voted Dizzle with a request to please post more, then asked for a replacement for Dizzle.
The Jerbs end of this interaction felt like how he would treat a scumbuddy to me.