Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[xRECKONERx]

Are you shitting me, Kcda? I'm not the one who blew it out of proportion in the first place.

[xRECKONERx]

Okay. I'm going to take a step back from the game and clear my mind, then try to look at this from the "What if Kise is genuinely mistaken?" perspective.

[Umbrage]

Scenario 1: Kise mentions a bullshit chat with Reck to try and strengthen his case. Now, obviously, he must know that doing this will mean he is confirmed scum to Reck, UNLESS if his wagon fails he can fall back on the excuse of "it must have been with someone else". Maybe his lover/scumbuddy. However, by saying that it only could've been with Reck or NC, he cuts himself off from his only back door, something I don't see scum doing.

Scenario 2: Kise had the conversation with NC, thought it was Reck, Reck flips out, NC covers Reck's ass.

You tell me, which makes more sense?

[Antihero]

Also, I hereby

FoS

GreyICE and Antihero. They've put together very little content. GreyICE manages to joke around a lot, make lists of the lovers, and point out which players aren't posting, but doesn't stick his neck out. Antihero's done nothing of note except attack q21 while voting EmpTyger.

If you're going to put together a joke, you might as well make it funny.

Accusing us of not generating content is pretty rich coming from you two.

Oh, and then there's this gem:

Why he is a better lynch than Kise:

1. I don't see scum making up a fake AIM conversation to enhance their case. Kise didn't even leave himself the back door of 'well it could've been some other guy', he said he only chats with three people.

2. Nero Cain is Reck's lover, and one of the people Kise said he could've chatted with. With a QT, it would be pretty easy for the two of them to play on a mistake made by Kise.

3. The way I see it, if Kise flips town, it doesn't really mean Reck is scum, and he could talk his way out of a lynch. But if Reck is town, Kise is almost definitely scum.

Why this list is really scummy:
1. He's pretty much taking Kise's word over reck's and NC's, but trying to disguise it behind reason.

2. He never talks about the reason Reck is really scum in the first place (even if Kise did talk to reck about this; so what? people forget stuff).

3. The third item in the list makes no sense whatsoever; I smell a bullshitty way of lining up lynches.

Read Kise's ISO.

I'm convinced of my vote. Reck seems to want to blow it WAY out of proportion. As far as I'm concerned, scummy thing happen IN thread rather out of thread.

Reck is over-perusing baseless and harmless nothings.

That's that.

buddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddy

I'm still voting emptyger. That needs to be fixed.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: q21

[Umbrage]

but trying to disguise it behind reason... He never talks about the reason Reck is really scum in the first place

What. The. Fuck.

So, is there reasoning for my attack or isn't there? And what is the reason Reck is scum? If you think he's scum, why haven't you questioned him?

[Antihero]

but trying to disguise it behind reason... He never talks about the reason Reck is really scum in the first place

What. The. Fuck.

So, is there reasoning for my attack or isn't there? And what is the reason Reck is scum? If you think he's scum, why haven't you questioned him?

Quote mining FTW?

Hiding behind a facade of rationalization (your third point epitomizes this) and actually telling me why Reck is scum are two completely different things.

Also,

I

don't think reck is scum; apparently

you

do.

[Antihero]

Scenario 1: Kise mentions a bullshit chat with Reck to try and strengthen his case. Now, obviously, he must know that doing this will mean he is confirmed scum to Reck, UNLESS if his wagon fails he can fall back on the excuse of "it must have been with someone else". Maybe his lover/scumbuddy. However, by saying that it only could've been with Reck or NC, he cuts himself off from his only back door, something I don't see scum doing.

Scenario 2: Kise had the conversation with NC, thought it was Reck, Reck flips out, NC covers Reck's ass.

You tell me, which makes more sense?

^Also, black-and-white thinking, FTW too.

[Umbrage]

Antihero, you seem to like attacking other people's ideas, how about giving a few of your own?

[GreyICE]

Idea #1: You're scum. We'll expound upon this at length, it's already been expounded upon a bit in our quickthread. I'd hop into yours with your three other friends to see what you can brew up.

[Antihero]

What are you talking about? What do you think we're doing, building a bridge?

Being productive in this game means finding other people scummy. What do you want my ideas on?

[Tragedy]

@Reckon: Why post chat logs when they have no meaning...Do they? (Oops, Haylen got's this!)

Just sent Mariyta some sort of stuffles of information about some players.

[Nero Cain]

@Reckon: Why post chat logs when they have no meaning...Do they? (Oops, Haylen got's this!)

Just sent Mariyta some sort of stuffles of information about some players.

[Nero Cain]

Scenario 1: Kise mentions a bullshit chat with Reck to try and strengthen his case. Now, obviously, he must know that doing this will mean he is confirmed scum to Reck, UNLESS if his wagon fails he can fall back on the excuse of "it must have been with someone else". Maybe his lover/scumbuddy. However, by saying that it only could've been with Reck or NC, he cuts himself off from his only back door, something I don't see scum doing.

Scenario 2: Kise had the conversation with NC, thought it was Reck, Reck flips out, NC covers Reck's ass.

You tell me, which makes more sense?

I don't either make very much sense and since I KNOW that I didn't have a convo with Kise about this game #2 is deff false.

[dramonic]

People in this game are veeeeeeeeeery confused...
It's annoying, really.

Unvote
Vote: Q21

nothing against you buddy, but your little lover is trying to attack my actual lover for reacting to a false accusation and calling Kise out for it, and that's freakin scummy.

Umbrage, let's look at this from a "Kise is town" perspective. He made up a conversation and used it to accuse Reck of being scum. If the conversation doesn't exist (hint: it doesn't, as has been proven), then that makes his complete case inexistant. Reck, reacting to said accusation, provides evidence that Kise is lying about this happening, as should any townie being attacked for a disprovable reason, thinking he caught scum.

That makes Reck PRO, FUCKIN, TOWN.

[Thingyman]

On an unrelated note, have you and Thingy just decided to let you be the team spokesperson? Because if I went after silavor over that stuff, I should have totally gone after him as well. It's largely the fact you're paired with him makes me

not

, at this point. (Well, that, and the fact that although he annoys me to death and has said zilch, right now I'm actually reading him as town).

hehe, no, I'll talk for myself (I even expressed disagreement with one of Emp's reads), but I will of course also take my lover's insight into consideration

I am sorry that I am managing to "annoy you to death" somehow? :S - if it's because I've said "zilch" (which I think is a bit unfair and harsh to say - especially given that I've apparently said enough to warrant a town read), then I'm reading the thread right now and will have some thoughts when I'm done.

[Mariyta]

Scenario 1: Kise mentions a bullshit chat with Reck to try and strengthen his case. Now, obviously, he must know that doing this will mean he is confirmed scum to Reck, UNLESS if his wagon fails he can fall back on the excuse of "it must have been with someone else". Maybe his lover/scumbuddy. However, by saying that it only could've been with Reck or NC, he cuts himself off from his only back door, something I don't see scum doing.

Scenario 2: Kise had the conversation with NC, thought it was Reck, Reck flips out, NC covers Reck's ass.

You tell me, which makes more sense?

There's also the possibility that Kise had the discussion, but with neither of them and can't remember who it was.

I still don't like Llamarble, so I'm putting my vote back there until I get a chance to re-read.

VOTE: Llamarble (I hope I'm spelling that right.)

[silavor]

Where's q21 taken off to? He's got a ton of votes on him now, and absolutely no defense for his scummy behavior so far.

Umbrage, why are you voting Reck? You never actually say why you think he's scummy, you just say that you think he's a better lynch than kise, and posting a bunch of hypothetical situations that don't really lead anywhere. Trying to lynch Reck because you find him annoying or irritating or whatever isn't going to help us lynch scum, and it isn't going to help us find scum later on.

[Thingyman]

Though I do have a question for you thingyman. Why were you not for the mass claim until ISO #7?

I assume by ISO #7 you mean my 7th post in the thread?

In that case: I was for the mass claim the entire time. The reason that I didn't actually state it right away is because my lover (EmpTyger) said that we wanted to preferably see who was going to support it first or if anyone who knew better opposed it. Basically, he wanted to be able to get reads from the discussion (which I agree was a good idea).

[GreyICE]

Okay, lets review the post history of the

q21

/

Umbrage

(may I call you Dolores?) Lovers

Q21

In his first post, he comes into an interesting discussion that is the end of the RVS. What's interesting is how he handles it. Q21 just... sheeps the biggest wagon he sees. His next input into the thread? He goes after VezokPiraka (the definition of an easy target, pretty much) for mindlessly sheeping. What's next? He jumps on Reck's Haylen vote. Remember, his last two posts before this were about mindlessly sheeping, which he apparently doesn't like. Then he... mindlessly sheeps?

Five posts into the thread, you have two votes, none of which have reasons behind them, one attack, on an easy target, which was not followed by a vote, and two instances of sheeping. I honestly think that short of hardclaiming a scum role, you'd be hard pressed to pick a scummier way to make five posts.

So what is Umbrage busy doing?

Umbrage

Well, first he votes for Reckoner. The person attacking me.

While q21 was voting me

. He then votes EmpTyger. For what?

Attacking me again.

Remember, this is a hydra team with their own QT. And they've reached the conclusion that I'm scum, and the people attacking me are... scum for attacking me?

What next? Well, a lot of people seem mad at Reckoner. He votes Reckoner. He then FoS' me, after attacking the people defending me earlier. And complains about how I haven't put out enough content after being part of most of the early-game discussion in the thread.

His response to Antihero's push on this scumteam? Questions. He answers questions with questions. Why? He's scared of where the followups to his answers would lead, and

stalling for time

. Three others back in the QT to help him answer this one?

Summary:

Basically, we have a team that seems dead set on doing nothing so much as sowing discord and pushing the wagons and attacks that others are making. They vote both sides of a wagon - long before claiming, so it looks like independent support. They try to bandwagon whatever the prevailing sentiment is. They have contributed, by my measure, somewhere between jack and shit. We've seen some serious lover disagreement in this thread, but pushing two sides of a wagon to make BOTH sides look scummier without even acknowledging this dichotomy? Trying to not make cases or draw attention to themselves? Responding to votes and attacks with questions and stalling?

This sounds like scum to me.

Vote: q21

[Thingyman]

@Thingyman: What is your username on twoplustwo?

The same as here.

Antihero:
Re Thingy, I only told him to ask me any “newbie” questions in private, so as not to distract from the game. Last I heard from him, he said he was going to read up on players’ private games. I’ve tried to explain was a bad idea, at first appealing to reason, then more bluntly telling him that he’s just going to burn himself out. Honestly, I think Thingy’s in over his head. I’d like for him to contribute- in particular I want to hear why he disagreed with me about GreyIce.

I'll just respond to this here instead of writing it twice here and in our own chat.

I naturally wasn't / isn't planning on reading everyone's games. But I saw that GreyICE - who was being heavily discussed at the time - only had one previous game on this site, so I figured that I could get a decent baseline on him from skimming through that game and therefore asked him for a link. I'm currently playing this game on several different sites - I'm used to doing a lot of re-reading and playing several games at once, so you don't have to worry about me burning out

Now, wrt: GreyICE. These are my notes:

antihero & GreyICE
- #20: tiny villa pts for prodding me to vote xRECKONERx
- #35: tiny villa pts for his clearing of xRECKONERx based on his ignorance wrt no night kills
- #203: tiny villa pts for "Antihero has been pointing out q21 has been needling people without taking any real stances or providing any logic, his response is to needle without taking any real stances. Antihero is convincing, he wins."

If you need me to elaborate on these notes, I will of course oblige.

[Tragedy]

Q21

In his first post, he comes into an interesting discussion that is the end of the RVS. What's interesting is how he handles it. Q21 just... sheeps the biggest wagon he sees. His next input into the thread? He goes after VezokPiraka (the definition of an easy target, pretty much) for mindlessly sheeping. What's next? He jumps on Reck's Haylen vote. Remember, his last two posts before this were about mindlessly sheeping, which he apparently doesn't like. Then he... mindlessly sheeps?

Five posts into the thread, you have two votes, none of which have reasons behind them, one attack, on an easy target, which was not followed by a vote, and two instances of sheeping. I honestly think that short of hardclaiming a scum role, you'd be hard pressed to pick a scummier way to make five posts.

QFT Same thought I exactly had when I was giving Mariyta a list of peeps.

[Thingyman]

Alright, here are my reads from having read the start from start to finish with people's masonries in mind:

Town

Thingyman & EmpTyger
Nero Cain & xRECKONERx
antihero & GreyICE
implosion & Kise
espeonage & Purple Orange

I feel reasonably good about this on a whole and I'm hoping that the setup (two scum teams) isn't having too much of an effect on my reads this game. If you need detailed reasoning for my reads, then go ahead and ask.

I know Reck and Kise are heavily suspecting each other, but I honestly don't see Kise ever deciding to make a play like that as a scum and I think Reck's reaction to the whole thing is believable.

espeonage & Purple Orange are my weakest town lean on the list - I think espeonage has been scummy, but on the other hand Purple Orange has made several posts that seem to be very sincere and full of good, sensible thoughts.

Scum

Baby Spice & Kcdaspot
Dramonic & werewolf555
Llamarble & DarlaBlueEyes

These are partnerships that I don't recall making a single post that I'd perceive as town-like.

I will say though that Llamarble & DarlaBlueEyes are probably unlikely to be on the wolf team due to this comment from Llarmarble (#101): "

Then again maybe Thingy (Emplover) referring to both scumteams as "wolves" is a slip and he's forgotten there are different types than his own?

".

wrt q21 & Umbrage: I am by no means clearing them and I will not in any way oppose their lynch, but I am personally thinking that they're perhaps "too scummy to be scum", so I am ignoring them for now.

[Thingyman]

having read the thread from start*

[GreyICE]

Thingyman the correct solution to "Wine In Front Of Me" is to break the neck of the wineglass and use it to shiv the other person's throat.

[Thingyman]

Thingyman the correct solution to "Wine In Front Of Me" is to break the neck of the wineglass and use it to shiv the other person's throat.

I'm not really familiar with that term, but it seems to imply that they're aware that they're acting scummy which I don't necessarily agree with.

In my experience, people who are "too scummy to be scum" are rarely scum. I wouldn't say this is one of the extreme cases though (which is why I'm choosing to just outright ignore it for the moment).