Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[Nexus]

Votecount the Sixth:

WeaponsofMassConstruction (3): silavor, _over9000, mongoose
_over9000 (3): mb53, KingTwelveSixteen, ICEninja
mongoose (2): Darth Yoshi, implosion
Silavor (2): Zdenek, q21
KingTwelveSixteen (1): neko2086
ICEninja (1): WeaponsofMassConstruction
mb53 (1): nameless

Not Voting: Noone.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is 22nd February at 12pm GMT.

As ever, if there are any problems, post in thread or PM me.

Nobody is in need of prodding.

[implosion]

I can't imagine any purpose for implosion to eg. still post questions to an already replaced player other than showing off how much of a detailed, scumhunting town's townie he is. (see: #110 aka "Woo questions that will never be answered.")

I was writing them as I was reading the thread, saw that neil had been replaced, and didn't feel like deleting them.

[implosion]

I get a really bad feeling right now from the _over9000 wagon. He's a

really

easy target, and I'd bet there's at least one scum on his wagon right now. He seems like too easy of a person for scum to pressure for them to pass up, unless he is scum, in which case I still think they'd be inclined to bus him. I'd rather withhold any lasting read on him until he posts content, if he ever does. If not, then IDK.

WoMC wagon - I don't really like this wagon either. He isn't as much of an easy target, but he is to an extent. And since he provided a game in which he sort of set a trap (assuming that he had a different name on a different forum) I'm inclined to not find the "trap" scummy.

nameless's mb vote - seems a bit contrived. If none of your suspects have wagons, how would you expect a wagon to form from a coinflip vote? If me/mb/q21 are your suspects, you should be trying to start a wagon on one of us or at least get some others to vote... how does flipping a coin to pick who you vote instead of figuring out your biggest scumread and voting them accomplish this, or even pressure?

Still waiting for a response from mongoose once he can.

[Zdenek]

Wait, since when has purpousfully not answering questions been a null tell? That seem like a scum tell to me.

I probably should have said isn't necessarily a scum tell; like most things, I think it depends on the circumstances.

It's RVS, why are you taking it so seriously? How is it at all scummy?

I think you made a vote for serious reasons, but made sure that you had an escape clause built right into the vote, and then when you were called out on it tried to explain it away as a joke. I think doing both of these things is scummy.

Zdenek, would you continue to find silavor scummy had he not done what 21 "caught" him on?

I would still find him scummy, but I'd probably be voting mb instead.

[q21]

q21 is a dodgy third. Some of his early points are just 'I agree' and the entirety of his last few days scumhunting amounts to jumping up and yelling 'AH HA!' at a careless mistake ... while simultaneously making a careless mistake himself. (Yes I know they're not the same, but it still kind of weakens your argument.

95% of all day 1 scum lynches are based on scumslips (which you try to ameliorate by calling it a careless mistake) - bare in mind that 87% of stats are entirely made up. In other news 17% of white rats got cancer from watching TV. Point is, the percentage isn't important, the fact that a lot of day 1 scum lynches are based on scumslips which makes is a perfectly valid move to stand up and shout "AH HA!" when I see one.

Scumreads at this point in the game:

Silavor is scum for his scumslip. Also for his pushing neil for replacing out - there is absolutely no way of knowing if his RL reason for replacing isn't perfectly legitimate.

mongoose is scum for voting me. And before you drag your soapboxes out and start crying OMGUS: Its not the vote for me itself that matters is the fact that he continued his RVS voting logic once RVS was obviously over. He himself already had an actual suspect, but chose not to vote there.

Nameless is scum mostly for his aggressive response to Darth's question early in the game. Town just answers the question, scum attacks it. Also, his coin flip selection of who to vote recently doesn't sit well.

At least 1, probably 2 scum here.

implosion/mb - Lesser scumreads on these two, but I'm not liking their lists from earlier. Really not buying mb's "I forgot it was scummy" excuse.

[silavor]

I think you made a vote for serious reasons, but made sure that you had an escape clause built right into the vote, and then when you were called out on it tried to explain it away as a joke. I think doing both of these things is scummy.

Since when have I been "called out" for voting WoMC, and since when have I been trying to explain it away as a joke? It was RVS when I voted, obviously I voted jokingly, but I wouldn't

still

be voting WoMC if I didn't think he was scum. I fail to see how any of what I've done there is scummy.

Silavor is scum for his scumslip. Also for his pushing neil for replacing out - there is absolutely no way of knowing if his RL reason for replacing isn't perfectly legitimate.

Since when have I pushed neil for replacing out?

How

could I have pushed neil

if he replaced out?

Your logic makes absolutely no sense. If you mean when I asked if anyone knew why he replaced out, I fail to see how that's scummy

at all,

given that I had a

legitimate meta-based concern

regarding Neil potentially being scum.

[q21]

Silavor is scum for his scumslip. Also for his pushing neil for replacing out - there is absolutely no way of knowing if his RL reason for replacing isn't perfectly legitimate.

Since when have I pushed neil for replacing out?

How

could I have pushed neil

if he replaced out?

Your logic makes absolutely no sense. If you mean when I asked if anyone knew why he replaced out, I fail to see how that's scummy

at all,

given that I had a

legitimate meta-based concern

regarding Neil potentially being scum.

Meta based reads revolving around players replacing out are never legitimate. I did misread this post though:

I'm Vanilla Town. Which is why, to be honest, this was quite an undesirable game for me to replace into. I'm not used to not having a night action.

Newbie 1035
Of course, it turns out he was scum in the end, but he was speaking to DDD about meta things, so I'm assuming he was trying to cash in on a meta he had built. I never actually bothered investigating his past games, though, as I was already dead by that point in the game, so it's entirely possible he was just trying to screw with us back then.

This is a situation in which he replaced into a game not one where he replaced out, so you're right you weren't providing evidence that he was scum based on the fact that he replaced out. However, even in this new light I find this post scummy: even if replacement meta was ever useful this is a different situation so this meta has no value at all. It therefore occurs to me that you're a moron (and I tend to assume that people who choose to play mafia aren't morons) or that you're trying to look like your providing information and thereby helping the town when really you are doing nothing of the sort.

[Zdenek]

Since when have I been "called out" for voting WoMC, and since when have I been trying to explain it away as a joke? It was RVS when I voted, obviously I voted jokingly, but I wouldn't still be voting WoMC if I didn't think he was scum. I fail to see how any of what I've done there is scummy.

Called out by nameless:

Vote:Weapon

for being jumpy, defensive, using IIoA as a scumtell on page

1

, and because it's still RVS.

Obvious self-contradiction is obvious. (Justifying your own vote / saying it's still random.)

Explained away as a joke.

Aw, you guys aren't very good at detecting sarcastic humor, huh. Live and learn.

[ICEninja]

q21, my meta demonstration (not on replacing out but on being disinterested in a game and using RL excuses) are more conclusive, but still on the null side of making him scummy. We definitely don't really have much against neil, but should his replacement do anything scummy, he will have done so from a bad position already. That is my view on things.

Zdenek, so you really think silavor's first vote was that scummy? I see your logic there, and sure it is a point, but it just seems so small to me. I'm much more interested in silavor supposedly knowing how many scum are in this game. HOWEVER, I believe it

only

weighs anything if we have a double scum team game going on, and he therefore only has 1 partner. If this is a standard mini, there will be 3 scum, and the point will be absolutely moot. The fact that he's previously only played newbie games (which are semi-open setups with 2 scum every time) I don't really buy being able to lynch silavor based on the information we had. In fact, if there is only 1 scum family, I'm inclined to believe silavor is town because of this. I wouldn't put him as experienced enough to come up with a fake slip indicating that he knows how many scum there are.

Again, if new information leads us to understand that there are 2 scum teams with a pair of scum each, then yes that was a huge scum slip, and I feel like it would be absolutely vote-worthy.

I don't like implosion's views right now at all. He's basically calling people out for voting the scummiest players. What do you want us to do? Pressure players who we don't believe are scummy? Of course I'm going to vote for the "easiest" player to wagon, because it means he's the scummiest. I felt like Weapon's original wagon built in the first couple pages was suspect, considering how many people jumped on that and with so little to add, but I don't see a single vote for over9000 right now that isn't completely justified.

This is

especially

bad, because implosion himself has declared over9000 to be scummy (in his list, over9000 is the very bottom). A scum flip on over9000 is going to really make me look over all these points deeply, because I can easily see scum trying to distance themselves from their partners, calling them scummy, and simultaneously trying to discredit the wagon against scum.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...

I'm Vanilla Town. Which is why, to be honest, this was quite an undesirable game for me to replace into. I'm not used to not having a night action.

Newbie 1035
Of course, it turns out he was scum in the end, but he was speaking to DDD about meta things, so I'm assuming he was trying to cash in on a meta he had built. I never actually bothered investigating his past games, though, as I was already dead by that point in the game, so it's entirely possible he was just trying to screw with us back then.

This is a situation in which he replaced into a game not one where he replaced out, so you're right you weren't providing evidence that he was scum based on the fact that he replaced out. However, even in this new light I find this post scummy: even if replacement meta was ever useful this is a different situation so this meta has no value at all. It therefore occurs to me that you're a moron (and I tend to assume that people who choose to play mafia aren't morons) or that you're trying to look like your providing information and thereby helping the town when really you are doing nothing of the sort.

Um, I'm pretty sure that link is to a game where he, as silavor says right there, was "trying to cash in on a meta he had built." If the meta does in fact exist, this is perfectly relevant.

Also, he was already talking about this before this post from memory so just dropping it would have been a MUCH more scummy than it turning out to not have been as good an example as he remembers.

[mb53]

Sorry, unexpectedly busy this weekend (currently posting from phone) will post monday.

[neko2086]

Ok, getting caught up--

unvote

Still keeping a close eye on King. Regardless of RL issues, neil made some real scummy moves. I dislike his post 118 where he tries to take attention away from neil's scumminess. Yes he's gone, but you don't get a blank slate. Such is the life of a replacement. On the other hand, I don't see anything in his other posts to be worried about so far.

I don't so much like Nameless' post 121. It's taking Ice's vote somewhat out of context. There is perhaps a bit of hypocrisy in that series of posts, but not to the extent that Nameless is trying to make it appear (and I really don't care where the sliding scale is). o9 has posted zero helpful things thus far, so there's really no comparing him to Ice here.

Looking at the votes right now, I don't like the WMC wagon. o9 is probably highest on my list, with perhaps mongoose next. I have no solid read on silavor yet, but I really don't see much in the "scumslip." It's slightly suspicious that he used the phrasing "the entire scumteam," but if he hadn't followed it up with an elaboration, then we would be talking about a pretty substantial scumslip.

Despite King being on the wagon, I really think o9 merits another vote

vote: over9000

What I'm specifically interested in from you is what exactly makes WMC's trap more likely to be "scummy" than simply poorly conceived. Also, there are over 6 pages now, so there should be plenty to comment on. Your question to q21 looks absolutely pointless. Unless you're suggesting this is some sort of scumslip (I can't imagine what it could be), I really don't see what you're trying to get out of this.

[DarthYoshi]

First, I forgot to put this in my #135 yesterday, but I don’t like Silavor’s excuse in #130—or, at least, the oversight part. I’ll buy the inexperience to a point, as we just played a Newbie game together, but the oversight of not remembering how many players are in the game sounds very contrived and, in my experience, is not like him. He is also coming across as somewhat defensive in #155, which isn’t really necessary when he is at L-5. This certainly is not enough to make him one of my top suspects at the moment, but I do think he’s looking worse.

I am willing to believe KingTwelveSixteen that Neil may have had serious RL reasons to drop out. If Neil wanted to just wash his hands of the game, he could have without PMing his successor all of that. That being said, I’m with Ice and Neko—KingTwelveSixteen does start with an uphill climb, though he hasn’t done anything to cause me to suspect him yet.

Like Ice, I really don’t like Implosion’s #152, in part because of what Ice says in #158, but especially because one could say the exact same thing about Mongoose being an “easy target” as one could about _over9000, and that is who Implosion’s vote is on at the moment. Implosion, why point this out in _over9000’s case and not Mongoose, especially when your vote is on Mongoose? Additionally, he says he doesn’t like the WoMC wagon—okay, but with _over9000 being on this wagon as well, this feels like additional posturing.

I still don’t like Mongoose’s activity (or _over9000’s, for that matter), but with this post + the scumscale + the RVS posturing, I think Implosion has done way more at this point in being actively scummy.

Unvote. Vote: Implosion.

My dissatisfaction with Mb53’s explanations of his behavior remains intact. Would also like to hear from WoMC soon, especially regarding what remains of his wagon.

[DarthYoshi]

EBWOP: Nameless, the coin flip seems really odd when you basically went ahead and did quick reads of the players right after you voted anyways. Why didn't you just do that before you voted?

[implosion]

I don't like implosion's views right now at all. He's basically calling people out for voting the scummiest players. What do you want us to do? Pressure players who we don't believe are scummy? Of course I'm going to vote for the "easiest" player to wagon, because it means he's the scummiest. I felt like Weapon's original wagon built in the first couple pages was suspect, considering how many people jumped on that and with so little to add, but I don't see a single vote for over9000 right now that isn't completely justified.

The issue is, _over9000 hasn't posted any real content yet, but has said that he will (just noticed his one post on the last page with real content, but that's minimal). I agree, he looks scummy right now, and the votes on him are justified - but the wagon is developing more quickly than I think it should be. Or rather, I feel like if I were scum, I would push very hard on him because he appears unlikely to defend himself well. For the same reason, if I were scum and _over9000 is scum, I'd make sure to be on his wagon in case it goes through so that it becomes a bus.

Be their votes justified or unjustified, I still think that there's likely scum on the 9000 wagon. It's just too easy of a wagon to jump on, especially since it's now the leading wagon.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Despite King being on the wagon, ...
...

...Why is that a "despite"? Do you already think me scummy enough to actively attempt to avoid voting for who I vote for?

[neko2086]

I actually don't find you nearly as scummy as neil, but I still hesitate.

Implosion, it seems to me the WMC wagon grew just as quickly with much less justification. One of those jumping on his wagon with little justification is o9. At any rate, do you not see the utility in a wagon on o9 right now?

[Nameless]

Regarding the coinflip: No, I didn't expect a wagon to form from a coinflip. My last vote was outdated, I had two equal suspects, I was lazy and I didn't expect it would make any difference to the next 24 hours. But mostly? It made me giggle. When ICEninja posed the dilemna I figured I'd better give a serious answer, though. AND NOW YOU KNOW.

Some of [q21's] early points are just 'I agree' and the entirety of his last few days scumhunting amounts to jumping up and yelling 'AH HA!' at a careless mistake

Point is, the percentage isn't important, the fact that a lot of day 1 scum lynches are based on scumslips which makes is a perfectly valid move to stand up and shout "AH HA!" when I see one.

That is exactly not my point. Don't strawman; I'm calling you scummy for

only

doing that and making a lot of posts without any scumhunting of your own. (BTW, I never actually attacked DarthYoshi's question. I attacked the paragraph of defence he followed it with.)

I get a really bad feeling right now from the _over9000 wagon.

scum:
mongoose
nameless
over9000

^ Here implosion distances himself from a wagon that he helped to push.

I'd rather withhold any lasting read on him until he posts content

As for _Over9000, His ISO 2 seems overly cautious and his ISO 3 seems overly unnecessary. mb's explained him.

^ Here implosion ignores his previous read and backtracks his own specific analysis, for the purpose of excusing himself from taking a stance.

I'd bet there's at least one scum on his wagon right now

I agree, he looks scummy right now, and the votes on him are justified

^ Here implosion implicitly contradicts himself; ie. if the votes are justified, there's no reason to assume any given voter is scum.

He isn't as much of an easy target, but he is to an extent.

^ Here implosion gives his stance on a major bandwagon (WoMC) ... as a meaningless, wishy-washy statement.

Or rather, I feel like if I were scum, I would push very hard on him because he appears unlikely to defend himself well. For the same reason, if I were scum and _over9000 is scum, I'd make sure to be on his wagon in case it goes through so that it becomes a bus.

^ Here implosion very heavily WIFOMs to convince the town his actions are not scummy.

UNVOTE: mb53
VOTE: implosion

I'll call it. Implosion is scum.

[q21]

Some of [q21's] early points are just 'I agree' and the entirety of his last few days scumhunting amounts to jumping up and yelling 'AH HA!' at a careless mistake

Point is, the percentage isn't important, the fact that a lot of day 1 scum lynches are based on scumslips which makes is a perfectly valid move to stand up and shout "AH HA!" when I see one.

That is exactly not my point. Don't strawman; I'm calling you scummy for

only

doing that and making a lot of posts without any scumhunting of your own. (BTW, I never actually attacked DarthYoshi's question. I attacked the paragraph of defence he followed it with.)

Sorry, the point about my early posts just being 'I agree' posts was false and I didn't see a reason to respond to that point - when I called out Zdenek for his second random vote that was new, and while others had said neil's actions prior to asking for replcement were scummy, I actually explained why. The point about me calling the scumslip is factually true, but not scummy so I said as much.

Nameless--what exactly is bothering you about Ninja's posts [...]

There is no need for you to be jumping in and defending another player at this point. Not liking this.

Looks like you're attacking the question to me. You made something of a clarification, I know, but that gets a fair bit less weight since it wasn't in your next post to Darth.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@nameless: Wow, nice one. Theres like 3 different contradictions there.

VOTE: implosion

[implosion]

I get a really bad feeling right now from the _over9000 wagon.

scum:
mongoose
nameless
over9000

^ Here implosion distances himself from a wagon that he helped to push.

This is out of context. I say that I have a bad feeling about the _over9000 wagon, then ELABORATE on that and explain that I think the people

on

the wagon are likely mafia. In that paragraph, I don't think I said much about whether or not over9000 himself is scum. Please reread my views on the _over9000 wagon. I do think he is scummy; however, I've stated multiple times that I think that whether or not he is mafia, there is mafia on his wagon. No distancing or contradiction exists here. Besides, right now I'm pushing mongoose, who isn't freaking answering a question i've had for several days.

I'd rather withhold any lasting read on him until he posts content

As for _Over9000, His ISO 2 seems overly cautious and his ISO 3 seems overly unnecessary. mb's explained him.

^ Here implosion ignores his previous read and backtracks his own specific analysis, for the purpose of excusing himself from taking a stance.

Keyword: lasting. Over9000 needs to post more content before a strong read can be made, imo.

I'd bet there's at least one scum on his wagon right now

I agree, he looks scummy right now, and the votes on him are justified

^ Here implosion implicitly contradicts himself; ie. if the votes are justified, there's no reason to assume any given voter is scum.

Wrong, and misrepresentation. I've explained multiple times why I think there is scum on his wagon, but I'll humor you and say it again.

Case one: _Over9000 is town. Mafia will jump on the wagon because he is an incredibly easy mislynch. Just because a mafia is voting a townie, it doesn't mean that their vote can't be "justified." It means that they're voting a mislynch, but it can still be a justified vote. A vote being justified has a correlation with someone being mafia, but not all townies' votes are necessarily justified and not all mafia's votes are necessarily unjustified.

Case two: _Over9000 is scum. Mafia will jump on the wagon because it's likely to hit a lynch, and they need to be seen as bussing. For those that are town, imagine that you were mafia (in fact, there are likely 3 mafia who all could be doing this). Wouldn't you jump on the Over9000 wagon whether he was a townie or a scumbuddy?

He isn't as much of an easy target, but he is to an extent.

^ Here implosion gives his stance on a major bandwagon (WoMC) ... as a meaningless, wishy-washy statement.

I'm saying I don't like it, but I dislike it less than the over9000 wagon. How is that wishy-washy? You've taken it completely and horribly out of context. In context, this comes immediately after I talk about the _over9000 wagon, which I said was a very easy target (be he town or mafia).

Or rather, I feel like if I were scum, I would push very hard on him because he appears unlikely to defend himself well. For the same reason, if I were scum and _over9000 is scum, I'd make sure to be on his wagon in case it goes through so that it becomes a bus.

^ Here implosion very heavily WIFOMs to convince the town his actions are not scummy.

This isn't WIFOM - this is me considering what I would do if I were scum in this situation. You can see it as WIFOM if you want, and there's really nothing I can do, but it isn't.

Fair amount of misrep in that case thar.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Well, considering implosion gave a pretty good defense and the main reason he would be doing all the bad stuff said about him (which is apparently just misrepping <_<) would have been because _over9000 is scum, I'm going back to over9000 now.

UNVOTE: implosion
VOTE: _over9000

[Zdenek]

Unvote
Vote Nameless

bad cases are scummy.

[DarthYoshi]

@nameless: Wow, nice one. Theres like 3 different contradictions there.
VOTE: implosion

Two posts later...

Well, considering implosion gave a pretty good defense and the main reason he would be doing all the bad stuff said about him (which is apparently just misrepping <_<) would have been because _over9000 is scum, I'm going back to over9000 now.
UNVOTE: implosion
VOTE: _over9000

Holy bandwagon hopping, Batman.

FoS: KingTwelveSixteen.

[Zdenek]

ICEninja, I think Silavor's first vote was quite scummy, but it's the fact that he tried to call it a joke later that bothers me the most. I see your point about the two person scum-team scum slip, and I agree that it is unlikely to be the case, unless there are two scum teams or this game is close to mountainous.