Newbie 1060: It's a Murder Mystery (Game Over)

[Voidedmafia]

Now I shall continue with the similarities by

Vote: Voided

, for talking too much in the queue.

What queue? I do have school, yknow. And Ibara hadn't confirmed/been taken out as of Midnight central time last night.

Finally,

Vote: Voided

. Come at me bro

BRING IT!

Vote: Sarg

Quote tag corrected. (Equinox)

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP:

Now I shall continue with the similarities by

Vote: Voided

, for talking too much in the queue.

What queue? I do have school, yknow. And Ibara hadn't confirmed/been taken out as of Midnight central time last night.

[Voidedmafia]

!


Fine, fine!

[Voidedmafia]

Nice job captializing the first "a" in "mafia", by the way.

And your image is too hazy.

[Voidedmafia]

God you newbies have got weird since I last played one of these.

I am simply here to prove my innocence.

[Voidedmafia]

Not voting total's off. Only GreyICE, mhi200, and zensei haven't voted.

I guarantee that you saw nothing! Nothing at all! (Equinox)

[Voidedmafia]

...

[Voidedmafia]

And that's supposed to watch this entire thing from the sidelines?

[Voidedmafia]

If I have nothing to give, it is because there is nothing to glean. We've only just started.

Though...



It WOULD be nice if everyone would actally post and not leave it to just be us few who are posting right now.

[Voidedmafia]

Like they've never heard THAT before.

Anyways...

Zensei:

Zensui has already potentially earned Sarg's ire for jumping on him for an innocent joke (though it is partially an injoke, since he and I know each other from another site, like he said). He has also pushed me for info, but it does seem forced, as does him trying to find something out of the Snow deal last page and jumping too early onto "if XXX turns scum/town, then YYY".

mhi200:

Only confirmed, nothing more. I'm annoyed by the lack of posts, but would probably be more annoyed by people calling him scum because of it at this point.

Sarg:

Hello, there, chap. can't think of anything on you at this point. Nice counter about the "problem, officer?" line, by the way.

Snowjorden:

Already has somewhat of a case built on him, though I can't tell if it's exactly for or against. We'll have to see.

Mammut:

You're acting paranoid, and that doesn't help you. Well, not at this point, anyways.

GreyICE:

Seems to be laid-back, though that can and probably does lead to misreading. Ought to be careful, we should.

mb53:

Apparantly annoyed by my talking in the Newbie Queue. Do you have a problem with that?

Primate:

Annoyed that Mammut ignored the two votes put on him. Also seemed too quick to backtrack out of that bandwagon/train deal with Sarg.


Well, I have nothing so far, really. Only Primate seems to be scummy in any way. Zensei, maybe, but seemingly forced questions don't necessarily lead to scumminess.

[Voidedmafia]

Care to give any of those suspicions?


In any case, I will

Unvote

since there is no need to keep it there, but my eye is on Primate.

Preview-Edit:

Sarg, I'm fairly sure he means that the wagon has one, if not both scum on it.

mb:

I will not contest your point about bandwagons. And I hope we won't be at 15 pages.


Seems to me that we'd still be in the single digits by this time tomorrow, if things don't pick up.

[Voidedmafia]

Vold, Mummat is acting paranoid? Can you show me this?

Zensei, allow me to present to you Mammut ISO post #2.

This was still during the voting stage, so keep that in mind. And yet, he seems sure that one of his wagoners has a reason, EVEN THOUGH THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY REASONS THIS EARLY IN THE GAME.


Unless he's absolutely positive that his two bandwagoners (which were Pime and Snow) are scumbuddies, or he's positive that they're two towns that have an early lead on him, he shouldn't need to fear that such a plan may come to fruition, much less even be there!

Also Vold, what do you mean by "forced"? How can you force questions? Questions are question ~.^. I asked you if you found prime scummy and you reply by saying you have nothing to say. Then in your next post you mention that Prime is scummy. Why did you not simply answer me?

Sarg already answered the first part. And the second is simple: At the time, I didn't have my notes structured, much less made, and thus didn't have anything to offer. Now that my notes are made, and somewhat organized, I gave my thoughts. Simple as that.

What is scummy about Prime to you?

As I said in my initial rundown, do you not think that Prime's quick backtracking from Sarg's FoS about the train/bandwagon spectacle was a little too quick? The fact that he knowingly tossed out the word train favor of bandwagon seems to be a serious lack of thought on his part, moreso for what he was trying to do.


And yet, if you'll look at the post where he replies to Sarg (Here, for your convenience), he was trying to find a way to have a lynch or vote prefix with train that would "scan well".


It's far too suspicious for my liking. More like a weak backtrack to cover up a blunder which we have yet to completely uncover than a response.

[Voidedmafia]

Also, must I assume that ICE's L-2 vote was because Equinox took his last vote as his actual vote?

[Voidedmafia]

You act as if you expect Prime to whole-heartedly agree with you. Suspicious, isn't it?


FoS: GreyICE

Snow:

No harm done.

[Voidedmafia]

You act as if you expect Prime to whole-heartedly agree with you. Suspicious, isn't it?

Yep, definitely is. Which is why I wanna know why he thinks I made that vote.

You're supposed to say what your reasons are, not make people guess and flounder like fish.

HoS: GreyICE

FOS: Voidedmafia

- For posting so many pictures of a character that I got no clue who he is...

A shame you haven't played Phoenix Wright. And it's a shame he--oh, wait, I can't say that.

In any case, I was the main prosecutor for the first game. Miles Edgeworth is the name.


Don't forget it!


Also, your attempts to pantomine my actions are as useless as your attempt to do anything in that post.

[Voidedmafia]

@VoidedMafia: No I'm not. If I tell everyone everything I'm thinking and expect them to nod their heads, how would I ever find out how they think? And if I don't know how they think, how do I ever find out when they're thinking like scum instead of like town?

That's the problem: You're expecting them to nod their heads. Maybe if you WEREN'T, you'd see that your idea is silly at best.

Besides, reasons aren't gained through guessing what other people's are. Your witholding of your information is far too suspicious for my liking, if not too scummy.

Also the pictures are wearing out their welcome

TOO BAD! I'm using these GIFs because I wish to, and to enhance the experience. I intend to use these until I win or I'm lynched/NK'd.


And it'd be rather stupid to NK me just because of these GIFs, I might add.

Sarg:


WHAT'RE YOU DOING HERE?!

[Voidedmafia]

Oh yeah, asking questions to figure stuff out... sooooo scummy.

My point is, he's making it sound like he has reasons for voting for Zensei, yet wants us to ask him questions to figure out what his reasons are. THAT is what I perceive to be scummy and suspicious.

[Voidedmafia]

Vold, could you at least just use one pic per post instead of all the way throughout? They are very distracting. Also Vold is this your first game or do you have other experience? Wait I'm pretty sure you already answered that. You say you know Sarg? From where is this? Apologies if I missed it. I will be using wiinet most of the time, and I'd have to completely exit out my post to go check.

If I could convey emotions through one GIF, I would try to. But I can't.


As for your other questions: No, I have no other experience beyond reading games; and I know Sarg from Scorehero.com.

@Sarg: So then please define to me what a forced question is. Questions are meant to gain further information on the questionee which is what mine did. Do I expect anyone to genuinly have scum picked out, no. However how one responds to such questions is where to begin. I've already gotten a feel for Vult from those questions in that he is showing logical thought process and and presents lack of guilt. (btw please don't respond to questions that aren't addressed to you. I asked Vold because I wanted

his

answer.)

Your questions were forced because they seemed almost like you were literally dragging the topic towards more serious discussion. They were not bad questions, but the timing of them just happened to be a little too...iffy.

[Voidedmafia]

Ah I see what you mean by forced. I'm just a serious person and like to be taken as so. And as I said, I see no reason to chatter about nothing or watch you guys chatter about nothing.
Vold, smileys can express emotion as well. The huge ass gifs are very annoying and distract from the content of your posts. I don't see why you feel the need to be so stubborn in this.

Spoiler:

I simply wish to play this way, but I can try to remember to spoiler them when I put them in. Nothing wrong with playing differently, is there?

Spoiler:

In any case, to your recent post, the first answer should be obvious if you look near the bottom, and I don't think so.

Spoiler tags corrected. (Equinox)

[Voidedmafia]

wait, why didn't that...oh, it's not like DS's spoilers...

Any way I can make these be in my post and be able to have a show/hide feature to it? I know you're not that enthused with the GIFs, but I'd like to try playing a game with them.

[Voidedmafia]

Vold I'm not seeing what you mean about Primate's "bandwagon/train" posts. Like I don't get what you mean by him backtracking with it >_>.

Spoiler:

Well, I suppose backtraking was the wrong word to use there. But the seemingly quick "oh, it could've been this but I decided not to," struck me as odd.

Spoiler:

Also, you can be sure these GIFs will portray what I'm thinking of as accurately as possible. Of course, I can use these to be misleading, but you can do the same with smilies. But I don't think that'll happen often.

Spoiler:

In any case, so far I see GreyICE as the main scum here. I still have eyes on Primate, but his recent post has thrown me a bit on where I need to place him, but he's not entirely at a null or town read yet.

VOTE: GreyICE

[Voidedmafia]

Grey is there a point in the game in which you become useful? Or do you intend to play this way entirely?

"I want to see why he thinks I'm voting him" is a very bad way to play. Aren't you supposed to be IC/SE? Or are you just challenged? The guru playstyle doesn't really work out. And is just anti-town. Not sure if you're wanting me to respond to your vote some way, but there's not much one can say against nothing.

Helpfulness is highly overrated, as is question and answer sessions. In general, it's interesting to see people's thought patterns.

Spoiler:

Helpfulness may be overrated, but that doesn't mean you can't try to help. Besides, I really would've liked to have seen your reasons much earlier, if what you've said later in the post to Zensei is indeed your reasonings for voting him.

In this case, I wanted to see several things. First, I wanted to see how you reacted to the votes. You have been acting very forced, and I'm curious what the vote would do. In this case, your response was very townie. You looked over the original posts, decided what was offputting, and then

didn't change it.

You responded that you were here to catch scum, not make friends. If you had modified your behavior to 'fit in' with the rest of us, I would have kept the vote here, but because you didn't, you're not trying to appease the town - you're trying to accomplish our goal of catching scum. That makes you town.

Unvote

Spoiler:

Out of curiousity, would you agree or disagree that almost all attempts to appease the town necessarily means you're trying to make friends or "fit in" with the rest of the town?

VoidedMafia likes having everything out in the open and explained to him. This seems reasonably pro-town on the face of it, because secrets help the scum hide, but also allows the scum to figure out what everyone is thinking and adapt their behavior to be unsuspicious. Which brings us to...

Spoiler:

I'd prefer it if you'd take out the "explained to him" part. I just wanted your reasonings to be readily seen by all so we could draw our own conclusions, as you would like us to do. Your own interpretation would've been nice to include, but all in all it would've just been optional on your part.

Spoiler:

You've improved my reading on you, Grey, and it seems that Snow would be a good person to start looking into if he survives to D2 as well as right now. However, you're not off the hook just yet.

[Voidedmafia]

Voided, I'll be entirely honest with you. I don't care if you see my reasoning for a vote or not. I was curious what the responses would be to a naked vote on someone who I felt needed pressure. I made it, I got responses. I believe this helped the town more than me putting on a dog and pony show would have. Everyone having the same logical procedure for catching scum is not helpful to the town, because then the scum only have to act in a way that appeases one person's reasoning.

Spoiler:

There is nothing that says that each of us used the same procedure, much less that many of us came to the same if not similar conclusions--and I say many because Sarg has apparantly agreed with you.

Whether or not your approached help the town or not remains to be seen by everyone else, but you seem to like grouping all of us into one group without considering that some of us may not wish that to be so.

Multiple approaches help establish multiple factors for the scum. If I play differently than you, it means together we are a stronger team than either of us alone. If I play similarly to you, it means that together, we are roughly as effective as one of us alone.

Spoiler:

I would have to agree for the most part, but similar play doesn't mean we will point out the same things.

I won't give reasoning for everything I do, but I'm an SE in a newbie game, I will hand it out more often than I do elsewhere.

Spoiler:

This here was a perfect oppurtunity to follow up on this claim. I hope I can trust you to follow up later on.

I will also be playing less aggressively than I do elsewhere, I learned that from 1049 (aggression is often though scummy, when more often it is very pro-town - if somewhat uncomfortable). It can be a great way to wake up a town of lurkers, but we don't have that here, thankfully (so far I like the people here (which doesn't mean I won't lynch you if you're scum ).

Spoiler:

There should be no real need to change your behavior, moreso if you think said behavior would help you catch scum easier.

If you want more examples of my play, there is a button labeled "Wiki" under my Avatar (look on the left of my post). You'll see my play varies from game to game - meta cases can be useful, but don't rely on them. BTW, this brings me to useful tools! Which will be its own post.

Spoiler:

I can agree that, by looking at previous games, you can potentially spot patterns of play in a user. However, I feel that in this situation it would not prove to be useful.

And I am interested to hear your explanation of these useful tools.

[Voidedmafia]

Sorry guys, been a hell of a busy weekend. SO heres whats going to happen: I'll rush in and say something stupid while trying to catch up, and you'll lynch me =)

But in all seriousness, FoS Zensei for those initial posts, will hold vote because of ^

Spoiler:

So, if I'm reading this correctly, you are FoS-ing him for what I objected to, but are not voting because of GreyICE's read on him?

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

I know you're eager to get him lynched, Sarg. But I'm not going to move just yet.

Also, does anyone know what his avatar is from?

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

I believe his point is is that he should've asked me his questions AND put down thoughts of his own, and not just simply question me, which should have been pretty obvious in the 2nd quote in your post.

So, I don't think the case is destroyed just yet.

Spoiler:

However, Sarg, you could've said more than just that. Why not explain why his post wrong, even if it seems like you shouldn't need to?

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

MB! You're avoiding the issue!

Our beef with Zensei is that his post was that he only asked questions and nothing else! In fact, it wasn't until ISO #2 when he was responding to GreyICE that he had more content than just questions.

Spoiler:

The rest of his posts are pretty much fluff, other than an explanation and another question for me. He has focused only on me pretty much the entire time except for that response to ICE, actually.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

Wrong name in the inner quote, by the way. I never quoted that particular sentence by Sarg.

[Voidedmafia]

Erm...That's the original post the quote came from, not a post where I quoted him.

[Voidedmafia]

-_- why don't you guys understand?

You don't seem to understand the point of questions. You ask people them. Then you decide whether how they respond is pro-town or not.

How is he supposed to have content other than questions before he has anything to go by? And remind me again why you aren't voting for him void?

Spoiler:

...

Well, I suppose I see your point there.

Spoiler:

Also, I have not switched because I am not entirely certain that a Zensei wagon is a good idea. I have kept my vote on GreyICE because my suspicions of him have not yet been appeased.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Well, it seems that there is a pretty useless bandwagon on Mammut, at least so long as he's absent. Snow's vote might not do much, and Primate's vote is pretty must lost since he's gone.

Still, I'm not entirely sold on Snow's wagon either. Call me what you will, but I've just not been able to focus on this a lot lately. I will still

unvote GreyICE

since not only does my vote seem to be useless, but he's been making my read on him pinwheel as of late.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

Also, just in case anyone asks, I have been keeping up with the thread. I hope I'll be clearheaded enough to accept any requests tomorrow.

[Voidedmafia]

IoA setup speculation. Woah boy.

You really are grasping.

Seriously? The 4 possible setups are at the very beginning of the thread. Please get associated with the rules :/

Yep, just re-read it that post. Cool ..so there's at most 2 scum. Cool.

Spoiler:

Can someone PLEASE explain what's with this attitude?!

You don't just blow off not knowing the setup for the game when everyone else has known it FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!

HoS: Snowjorden

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP:

I wasn't sure if it was l-2 or l-1 on him when I HoS'd him.

Vote: Snowjorden

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

Is that it? Just give up and go home?

Spoiler:

IF YOU'RE NOT EVEN GOING TO TRY, THEN DON'T BOTHER PLAYING IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Spoiler:

Being away does not mean you're a bad player, but if you're going to act like it's the end of your world and not even submit a defense, then you obviously aren't cut out to play, or just can't ass yourself to try, which is NOT what we need at any point in the game.

So, whether you like it or not, you're hole's already as deep as one going to China. The question is, are you going to fill the hole, or are you going to aid in it's deepening?

[Voidedmafia]

You shouldn't be acting like it's a good thing to be going to China, either!

If you want to get out of your hole, start actually REPLYING to people, and stop with this "oh, well, might as well twiddle my thumbs as they pour the soil on my coffin" mentality! Actually, stop that anyways, because it's annoying and doesn't help, period.

[Voidedmafia]

I have replied to people, many times. And the "going to china" was a joke. Jesus christ. Lighten up.

Spoiler:

So says the person who's on death row.

And yes, you have been replying...replying with essentially NOTHING but FLUFF. When I say reply, I mean reply with clear points towards people that at least outline what you're doing and why they shouldn't vote beyond just saying "They'll realize their mistake"!

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP:

Which, I might add, is pretty much the only line I can see that has any form of content from you as of late.

[Voidedmafia]

What am I suppose to say that is a "clear point?" I'm not a big fan of breadcrumbing and I'm sure that out and out role claiming is against the rules (maybe I should check that before I say that..). It's kind of hard to make clear and decisive points, instead of just "fluff," when you can't really out and out say much. I don't know what you want me to do at this point. What I'm suppose to do, at this point.

So yeah, take it how you will. Consider it giving up. Consider it whatever the heck you want. I don't know how to reply without it being seen as "overly defensive" or "fluff" or anything else.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I'm not sure what you're trying to pull here.

Spoiler:

If you respond in a calm manner and don't give off any vibes that may indicate you're slipping, I don't see why they wouuld pounce on you as overly defensive. If you reply with things that actually contribute to finding scum and helping the town, then it won't be regarded as fluff. And you can roleclaim anytime you wish, unless you're dead.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure what card you're using, if you're using anything at all, but you're showing quite a lot of ignorance in a game where you seem to have more than a bit of experience in. No matter if it's 3 people, 5 people, or 50 people in a game, you should know about roleclaiming and fluff from your previous games!

[Voidedmafia]

Uh, and quite a few of the previous games I've played have a NO ROLECLAIMING rule...

Spoiler:

Why would that be?! Whether it's in the game, when you're lynched, or once your side wins, your role will be displayed, so why put such a rule?

[Voidedmafia]

No ..the fact that when I say something, it does nothing but hinder me. And when I say nothing it does nothing but hinder me. So what should I do ..say something and have it used against me, or say nothing and give you nothing to use against me? I'll go with the latter.

Spoiler:

I should also point out that one of the main things with this game is that we're supposed to effectively pick apart each other's posts to find meanings in them that can help us determine if they're scum or town.

Personally, you've got a decided noob-tell and null-tell from me, because the way you're acting either screams scum desperate to get people off his case, town desperate for people to also get off his case, or completely bewildered noob who probably should've paid more attention.

[Voidedmafia]

Build a defense? Okay ..I'm a townie. As seen in this role;

Welcome to Newbie 1060, XXX!

You are a townie.

Town Abilities: As a citizen of the town, you have the right to vote.
Win Condition: You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.
Confirmation: Please respond to this PM stating your role.

Spoiler:

It's a start, since saying such a thing might cast doubt as to whether or not lynching you is a good idea. However, you could just as likely be a scum fake-claiming than to be actual town, so it is a possible case of WIFOM.

My proof? Well since it's against the rules to quote my original role pm from the moderator ..my proof is that no one else has claimed this role. So that's how I can prove that I have the role.

Spoiler:

So you're saying that becasue no one has claimed VANILLA TOWNIE, you have that role?

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Quite frankly, this is the most laughable part of your post here.

I kindly direct you to read the four kinds of setup we could have in a newbie game, as I see you still apparantly have not bothered to read the rules, or even skim those first three posts.

SERIOUSLY, what the fuck? You guys act like we have this massive stack of evidence in this file folder that I can just pull out and start scanning the documents and let you all read them. This is the FIRST fucking day. There is no building a defense. Seriously, you guys are clueless.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Surely not as clueless as you.

You see, even on the first day, we've had at least five pages worth of information to debate upon and defend with, and debated and defended it has, and this seems to be something you've missed. Your previous games of 48 hours a day are seriously clouding your judgment. I highly suggest you take a break and seriously read over the first three posts before you post anymore, before you embarrass yourself any further.

mb:

Spoiler:

I think you miss my reasonings for my pressure.

see, his seeming obliviousness struck a chord within me, sounding off alarms in my head. This also prompted me to vote for him. Even if he has only played games where the days are 48 hours long, he certainly should've seen and been able to identify posts or comments that are fluffy and provide little to no information on the game. Not to mention that his defeatist attitude is not something we need now, for if he does survive to near the endgame or lylo, then this attitude could very well do the town in.

Spoiler:

If I pressure him to defend himself against this and either explain his attitude or whatever else, and he defends well enough to stop my alarms, I can drop my vote off him, though that shouldn't mean he should still squander and do nothing. However, if my pressure does nothing, as it seems to be doing right now, or sets him up to be more defensive (vibes which I'm also getting from his posts as well), then that probably means he's got something to hide, and continues to look suspicious.

Besides, despite how it might help him, I do not necessarily believe the role-claiming was a good idea, especially in light of what he's said surrounding said roleclaim.

Spoiler tag corrected. (Equinox)

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

In any case, going over GreyICE's and mhi's ISOs, I can see that between the three of us GreyICE and I have the most solid cases, though it's a toss-up as to who between the two of us has the more solid case.

Perhaps you would like to further explain your vote, mhi?

Or you can, you know, actually build a defense to prove to everyone your not scum?

...Nah, you're right, that's a crazy idea.

Or you can, you know, build an actual case against him, prove to everyone why he

is

scum?

....Nah, lets just pressure him into roleclaiming by yelling at him to build a defense when it is impossible to instead.

At least someone realizes that it's impossible to build a real defense.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

You've just proven yourself wrong with this very post, snowjorden.

Build a defense? Okay ..I'm a townie. As seen in this role;

Welcome to Newbie 1060, XXX!

You are a townie.

Town Abilities: As a citizen of the town, you have the right to vote.
Win Condition: You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.
Confirmation: Please respond to this PM stating your role.

Spoiler:

It's a start, since saying such a thing might cast doubt as to whether or not lynching you is a good idea. However, you could just as likely be a scum fake-claiming than to be actual town, so it is a possible case of WIFOM.

Or maybe I'm just picking one of the roles listed and posting it because you continue to ride my dick, like you want to be my girlfriend?

Spoiler:

Must you resort to ad hominems in your posts? I'm sure you can do better than this.

And I was simply saying what that might be, nothing definite there.

My proof? Well since it's against the rules to quote my original role pm from the moderator ..my proof is that no one else has claimed this role. So that's how I can prove that I have the role.

Spoiler:

So you're saying that becasue no one has claimed VANILLA TOWNIE, you have that role?

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Quite frankly, this is the most laughable part of your post here.

It was meant to be laughable. It was meant to be a "fuck off" type of statement.

Spoiler:

Well, sorry to say, but that didn't quite work out the way you wanted.

I kindly direct you to read the four kinds of setup we could have in a newbie game, as I see you still apparantly have not bothered to read the rules, or even skim those first three posts.[/b]

Actually I have read them. I read them initially when the game first started, but was so involved with running my own game on another site that I didn't commit them to memory. After it was brought up to me that the setup of the game was not 2-3, I went back and RE-READ everything once more. So no.. no need to go read them for a third time.

Spoiler:

You still sound very flustered as if you didn't actually read them, which doesn't seem to add much to your post. Regardless of whether or not this part of your post was supposed to be funny, your purpose here seems to be lost.

SERIOUSLY, what the fuck? You guys act like we have this massive stack of evidence in this file folder that I can just pull out and start scanning the documents and let you all read them. This is the FIRST fucking day. There is no building a defense. Seriously, you guys are clueless.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Surely not as clueless as you.

Everyone else, no not so much. You ..yea, I'm starting to think so.

Spoiler:

If you insist.

You see, even on the first day, we've had at least five pages worth of information to debate upon and defend with, and debated and defended it has, and this seems to be something you've missed. Your previous games of 48 hours a day are seriously clouding your judgment. I highly suggest you take a break and seriously read over the first three posts before you post anymore, before you embarrass yourself any further.

We've had no information to debate upon. You guys pulled posts from other mafia games that people have played on this site and tried to use that for examples as to why people could or could not be town/scum in this game. Either way, those games have NOTHING to do with this game. That's fluff if I've ever seen it. Nothing is clouding my judgement, and I'm not embarrassed at all. I'm simply just having a good time getting my dick wet, glad you got a warm mouth.

Spoiler:

Oh, nonsense! Meta is, I'll admit, a flimsy evidence to use, but as I've said before, it can help in finding connections in player's posts and spotting patterns that may continue whether they're town or scum, and it's certainly not fluff--if used properly, anyways..

And still with that ad hominem? You're certainly not helping your case if you keep doing that.

mb:

I think you miss my reasonings for my pressure.

see, his seeming obliviousness struck a chord within me, sounding off alarms in my head. This also prompted me to vote for him. Even if he has only played games where the days are 48 hours long, he certainly should've seen and been able to identify posts or comments that are fluffy and provide little to no information on the game. Not to mention that his defeatist attitude is not something we need now, for if he does survive to near the endgame or lylo, then this attitude could very well do the town in.

Defeatist attitude? I don't think I've been defeated. I'm still in the game. I think there's just someone clinging onto my ball sack and hoping that every time I take a step they don't lose their grip. That, being you. If anything, the way you've latched onto me trying to *looks for that wikipedia page with mafia game abbreviations* (damn, can't find one) get me lynched seems like the biggest scum tell so far out of anyone.

Spoiler:

If acting like you don't care and are basically saying "go a head an lynch me, it won't matter anyways except that it'll prove you all wrong" isn't a defeatist attitude, then I don't know what is.

Spoiler:

However, my "latching on" has certainly gotten you to post something worthy to this thread, so it wasn't useless after all.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure what kind of abbreviation you're loooking for, however.

Spoiler:

If I pressure him to defend himself against this and either explain his attitude or whatever else, and he defends well enough to stop my alarms, I can drop my vote off him, though that shouldn't mean he should still squander and do nothing. However, if my pressure does nothing, as it seems to be doing right now, or sets him up to be more defensive (vibes which I'm also getting from his posts as well), then that probably means he's got something to hide, and continues to look suspicious.

Besides, despite how it might help him, I do not necessarily believe the role-claiming was a good idea, especially in light of what he's said surrounding said roleclaim.

Defends well enough? Dude, you haven't made a single case against me. Nothing concrete or solid. You've simply used (in your own words) "fluff" to try and point a finger at me. Be more defensive, less defensive, no defense, Ron Artest type Defense.. it's whatever. Nothing is changing your attitude or opinion.

Unvote
Vote: Voidedmafia

- Not a revenge vote. Not a defensive vote. Not anything or anyway you will try to spin it. I'm voting for you because I think you're trying WAY to hard to get me lynched, like you've got something to hide yourself. That's it. That's all.[/quote]

Spoiler:

Ever since you've started to actively post in this thread, you've been acting like you're on the verge of losing. But, if you insist on me having a case, let me ISO you.

ISO #0: Confused by Sarg's actually straightfoward post, yet goes in another direction entirely to vote mammut. Certainly it would be better to start with the first person you see as suspicious, which would be him since it's the first nonmod post in the game?
ISO #1: Mixed with fluff and content. I'm a little confused why you put scum in all caps, though I must apologize for not asking sooner.
ISO #2-4: Fluff
ISO #5: The first sign of indifference/pseudo-defensiveness regarding GreyICE's vote that he's kept ever since he unvoted me.
ISO #6: attacks GreyICE's suspicions, and brushes it off as eccentricity and seems to slight me in the process. And then he gets mixed up with how many people there are in the game, which also gives off hints of defensiveness. He also begins to appear scummy here.
ISO #7: I suppose the all caps are to make them more obvious. Anyways, rehashes the rules here. This is where he gets the first bit of flak for not reading the intro posts by equinox. Also defends his "paranoia" by saying he wants to address it whether he's at l-4 or l-1, which may point town more than scum.
ISO #8: Says that Sarg isn't scum, but doesn't say that definitively. You could say he's trying to distance himself, or just fencesit, but I'm not sure. I myself lean towards Sarg being town, anti-town at the most.
He then says that he, Sarg, and Zen are all town in his book, but again, not definitively. And he also learns that there are 9 players instead of 5. Arguably where a FoS would've most likely been placed.
ISO #9: Agrees with mb's argument (I forgot for whom), and goes on to cement his statment that he, Sarge, and Zen are all town to him. He also says that he has no definitive read on GreyICE.
Then he gets defensive about that mixup about how many players there were, and brushes off the rest of ICE's post there, which doesn't improve your standing much.
His defence towards mhi seems to contradict what he says. To me, it looks as if he's saying, "No, I'm not being overly defensive while I am over-defensive because I'm not!"...or something like that.
Then he also accuses mb, who brushed off the mislynch suggestion back in ISO7, of being scum for doing that, and does a good job of defending his position on that, in my opinion. FoS arguably sustained.
ISO #10: Catches mhi in missing a part of his post that responded to another part of a post. While the post still gives off hints of defensiveness, it's not as bad as before. A FoS might be lifted at this point.
ISO #11: Again either misread the rules or ignored them completely. FoS back up.
ISO #12: The post that made me vote for him. This and ISO11 were just too laid-back for my liking
ISO #13: If the defeatist attitude and defensiveness wasn't apparant in previous posts, this is where it really breaks through. He basically constantly tries to say that voting him is a bad idea, and still tries to play the ignorance card.
ISO #14: Brushes off another of my posts like nothing. This kind of play isn't what you try to do when you're at l-2 or l-1. And also flat-out states he's had a defeatist attitude for awhile.
ISO #15: Tries to tell me to lighten up, but the opposite can be said of him, for he does need to get a more serious tone.
ISO #16: Again with the defeatist attitude. Now he's grasping for excuses not to post anything at all, which hurts him more than it helps.
ISO #17: responds to my comment about the roleclaiming, which seriously surprised me. The no roleclaiming, that is.
ISO #18: More defeatist, and seems to think a mouth closed is a mouth trusted, but a mouth open is a mouth better understood.
ISO #19: Probably serious on the claim, and then he breaks down. Scum meter is ticking.
ISO #20&21:21 is just EBWOP, so I'll include it and 20 together. His response to me and to mb's defense. I'm not going to jump and say "scumbuddies!" but I do disagree with mb.

All in all, his actions have proved to me to be defensive, defeatist, and rather scummy for the most part. Yes, I know I didn't insert much about how scummy the ISOs were, but in conclusion, I think you are scum, and my vote is staying where it is.

Spoiler tags corrected. (Equinox)

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

And I would like to add that I have not used fluff, but rather I have pointed out that your posts have been very defensive or defeatist, or both, and that leads to you potentially being scum. And I've just pointed that out, too.

[Voidedmafia]

I'm seriously not going thru and addressing EVERY single point you just tried to make in post 161 because most of them are literally rubbish,

Spoiler:

Come, now, must you completely disregard my argument? That doesn't help improve your station, unless it's painfully clear that you are in the right and I am in the wrong. Yet, I'm certain that is not the case.

However, I am not saying that I am right and you are wrong. I'm just saying you aren't right and I'm not wrong.

but I will speak towards 162. IF (and that's a big IF) I have a defensive or defeatist attitude, it's only because nothing I've said thus far has stopped you from clinging to me.

Lol... it's all good though guys. Keep em coming and see how much of a bad idea it is when all is said and done. I really got nothing else to say, and I'm sure this will be construed as me having an "attitude," but I'm almost at a loss as far as what to say here. Anything I've said, has done me no good. When in reality, I've said nothing out of the ordinary. I've NEVER played a Mafia game with a 3 week phase, they've only been 48 hours at the max, and excuse me for having other things going on in life and forgetting some of the things I read 6 pages ago.

Spoiler:

You think this isn't in any way shape or form evidence of a defeatist attitude? Keep in mind that was before my vote on you, and a couple posts before I began to pressure you, as well.

There comes a point when it becomes pointless to try and argue with someone. That point was reached pages ago when it comes to you and I. Nothing, and I mean, NOTHING I say ..has changed your mind. You are STUCK in this thinking that I'm acting as if I've already been defeated, or that I'm overly defensive. That's your thinking. Fair enough. I'm done trying to argue the point with you.

Spoiler:

Don't be rediculous.

Spoiler:

While many of the posts I've read do come off that way, I've noticed a remarkable decrease in defeatism in your posts, though your defensiveness hasn't really gone down. I suppose that's partially my fault, though.

However, you have at least tried to defend yourself, and I commend you for that. Your seeming ad hominems did not score many points with me, if any at all, but you have stepped out of the defeatist shadow, and that is worth something.

unvote

Spoiler:

I would still like you to try to respond to my reply without being insulting, however. Maybe it will sway the other two still on your wagon to get off.

Spoiler:

Of course, that may or may not happen, but you can still try.

[Voidedmafia]

Well, since Zensei is V/LA, I'll

Unvote

.

Snowjordan's vote on Voided looks INCREDIBLY scummy, and an OMGUS vote. No matter how many times you say it isn't, that doesn't make it true.

Doing a quick skim of his ISO, it all seems like fluff, rule confusion and "I'm not being defensive even though I'm yelling and cursing every post and not giving any defense whatsoever".

I'll look into it more in-depth tomorrow sometime.

Spoiler:

Even if his earlier posts are that way, his recent posts have been straying away from that mentality quite a bit. The only main thing that remains is the defensiveness.

[Voidedmafia]

^ quick note before i go have a smoke ..you TOLD me to be defensive. Lol..

Spoiler:

I know, but I do not know if I can say now if I expected the amount of defensiveness you showed me with our arguing.

Spoiler:

And smoking is bad for you! Stop that!

Suspicious is the wrong word. Perhaps I should have left it at sudden. What I meant was that Voided has been onto snow for a while, and then without much change (imo) in snows argument (except for doing what voided

told

him would be less scummy [no defeatist attitude]) Voided just took the vote off.

Spoiler:

Why is it sudden?

Spoiler:

I rode on him

because

of his defeatist attitude, and when it was obvious that he was not displaying that anymore, if at all, there was no reason to keep my vote on him.

I'm in a rush now, will be back in a few hours to find the post about the target.

Spoiler:

Actually, I would prefer if you'd explain why he would have painted a target on these people.

[Voidedmafia]

I think both voided and snowjordan actually came out of that argument pretty well.

Ugh, please don't claim scumbuddy on day 1, this makes me sad

Spoiler:

...

Please explain how you got "claiming scumbuddies" out of "compliment Snow and I".

Mhi:

Spoiler:

Arguably that changed over a couple of posts, the last of those being the one that made me unvote.

I thought his actions were scummy, yes, but now that it's after the fact I can't help but question if I really thought he himself was scum.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

I see sarg in the users browsing the forum, so I hope he does post.

And Zensei will be back in two days, but I'd like both of them to put input on our argument.

[Voidedmafia]

I still think Snowjorden is scummy, Voided is either town or quite good at this game. You and Sarg not too sure. Mb I haven't even looked at yet.

Spoiler:

You flatter me. I haven't played a siingle game before this one.

In any case, I'm off to school, and I'll try go collect my thoughts to give my 2 town/scum when I get home this afternoon.

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP: try to collect my thoughts.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

I believe we were asked to give two people we thought were town and two who were scum, but I think it might help if I go over everyone again, since it'd help you all see what I think, and it might help me better work these kinds of things, as I do honestly think my ISO on snow was rather weak overall.

Spoiler:

Here are my thoughts on you all as of now:

mammut/Otolia:

Nothing to really go on, since Oto (if I may call you that) just replaced in. I suppose I could call the way he's posted so far town, though.

mhi200:

I personally didn't like his statement to snow that a mislynch D1 is bad (I understand it's likely to happen and all, I just don't agree with it), and I'm a little worried that he's FoSing for a chainsaw that even he himself admits is such a small possibility. Still, he seems pretty town to me. Not solidly town, but he's not null or scummy..

sarg:

I understand you may not exactly be HERE here, but I would like a little more content. His play does seem to be town so far, in my eye, and like he said, he's blunt.

snowjorden:

Like I said, you've scored some points with me by stopping with that defeatist attitude, but don't be offended because I'm still keeping an eye on you and don't think your out of being scummy just yet.

zensei

Not much content since this game started, so I'm really kinda forced to give a null read on him.

GreyICE:

I really, REALLY don't like how most of your responses to probing questions are along the lines of "look for yourself". Now, if we're dealing with something that should be obvious to all, then I'd understand. But saying that against mhi's question of why you think it'd be impossible for snow and I to both be scum was just a really bad play. I had considered keeping you as null, but that makes you scum for me.

Primate:

Pretty much in the same boat as Zensei, but it's worse for him because he doesn't have V/LA as an excuse to be away. Like I've said earlier, I won't call him scum for lack of activity or lurking, but his content doesn't look all that promising.

Spoiler:

So, in conclusion, I believe mhi and sarg are town, and that GreyICE and maybe Prime and Snow are scum. Everyone else is null, either by abscence or because their actions have kept me from giving a straight town/scum read.

As for mummat, I'd only say null because of how little content he had, but I could see a scum read if any of you gave it.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

...Hello?

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

Oh. My apologies.

Spoiler:

mb:

I still believe you missed my point back when we were talking about Zensei, but if I can't persuade you, we'll just have to agree to disagree. All in all, though, I don't see you as scum.

Spoiler tags corrected. (Equinox)

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP:

Spoiler:

Oh. My apologies.

Spoiler:

mb:

I still believe you missed my point back when we were talking about Zensei, but if I can't persuade you, we'll just have to agree to disagree. All in all, though, I don't see you as scum.

And I don't know how those extra i's got there, too.

[Voidedmafia]

As promised a general analysis :

Sarg338

He is overall very aggressive in his behavior. Keep it cool buddy !
Claim to know VoidedMafia from another forum (scorehero) and we have yet to see the proof of that.
RVS his buddy VoidedMafia.
Not very active after the RVS.
Didn't vote on anyone after that.

I consider him as being scummy.

Spoiler:

Well, how do you want to to prove he knwos me? I mean, Parama, Sarg, and I know each from scorehero.com, and if you look over some of our conversations in the newbie queue, you can see that we're talking about an even on that forum (namely Scorehero Mafia, which I believe is a kind of open game).

If anything, just go to http://www.scorehero.com and look up Sarg338 (I think) and Voidedalive2x.

VoidedMafia

RVS his buddy
Very active.
Participate in the scumhunt very actively.
A little bit gullible.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

HEY! I take offense at being gullible!

[Voidedmafia]

Well, how do you want to to prove he knwos me? I mean, Parama, Sarg, and I know each from scorehero.com, and if you look over some of our conversations in the newbie queue, you can see that we're talking about an event on that forum (namely Scorehero Mafia, which I believe is a kind of open game).

If anything, just go to http://www.scorehero.com and look up Sarg338 (I think) and Voidedalive2x.

You are not the one targeted here, I want a proof by Sarg that you know each other from that game. You defend someone that might use your friendship as a cover for scuminess (no offense here). You attitude in this answer is overall counter productive for the town. And btw, I can't find anyone (neither you nor Sarg there)

Spoiler:

If you'd visited the site, you'd realize that SH isn't centered around Mafia at all, but rather Guitar Hero and Rock Band, and that game is how we know each other because we've both commented on each other's accompishments and/or post in each others' acc. threads. And I did tell you what names to look for (I've got different names so there isn't an easy connection between these two sites. Parama and sarg can indeed confirm that Voidedalive2x is me if you ask them. I also believe that sarg's name is the same on both sites, though you might have to check the Rock Band side of the site for him.).

Preview Edit: Well, Sarg answered that.

And...

HEY! I take offense at being gullible!

You are gullible, you accepted the proof of GeryICE far too easily. And though you are being overall Pro-Town, that was not the thing to do. You gave up your clue far too easily. It was D1 so you have to pressure someone hard to get things going.
The game has been going on for long enough, it is time to end day one as soon a Zensei or his replacement comes in. And as stated in my previous post, I think the most easy choice for us is Snowjorden. Thus I recommend you to follow that advice. I can do an ISO if necessary but this day the town has been unproductive so far and I wish we could change that.

Spoiler:

Remind me what proof of GreyICE are you talking about again? It may just be that I can't quite understand what that sentence is supposed to read because "proof of GreyICE" just doesn't sound right grammatically. Are you talking about why I pressured him on that naked vote?

Also, snowjordan, mhi, what's your reads on the new guy?

He's pretty dead on at least that Zensei and Primate NEED to stop lurking right the hell now.

Spoiler:

I readily and whole-heartedly agree on this point. Now that it's February the 18th, Zensei should have no reason to NOT post unless he's just not home.

Quote tags corrected. (Equinox)

[Voidedmafia]

Oh, and I RVS'd Voided because... well, it was RVS and I knew him from Scorehero. Keep it cool buddy !

Spoiler:

And I did likewise for the very same reason.

[Voidedmafia]

Town

Voided Mafia

I have got to admit, I've been nosing around voided for a while, trying to suss him out. However, he's very, very linear and does not like to question what's beneath the surface. Voided, be careful with that. That's going to KILL you in LyLo situations, since LyLo is where everything becomes a total mess. To quote the wiki, frequently the way to find scum in 3 man LyLo is to vote for the person you think is most town. Things become much, much weirder. Question assumptions. Question everything. If you think someone is scum, stop, reread, ask yourself what's going on and what else is sliding. This is a game of total deception - wipe your slate blank. If you say "Olivia is def. town" stop, reread, and imagine Olivia is scum. If you see 3 people of varying degrees of scumminess posting a lot, and 1 person who you haven't seen much of, but seems vaguely town, stop, reread, ask where they are. Watch our bandwagons. We haven't had a competitor to the SnowJordan wagon. If it's a scum wagon, why? Are they that ineffective? Is he being bussed? Is he town and they're content to let him be mislynched? Watch frequent V/LAs. Tunnel only to the extent necessary.

Also, read more, write less. One effective paragraph is worth more than an entire wall. I've nearly gotten someone lynched before with a three sentence post (I'll link to the game when it's over).

Spoiler:

I will admit that I don't have an aptitude for reading between the lines, but I do know about what you're saying here.

Quote tag corrected. (Equinox)

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

Two replacements on D1? This is going to be fun...

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

Two replacements on D1? This is going to be fun...

3, if you count ICE replacing in at the very beginning.

Spoiler:

Oh, right, forgot about that.

Now that I've thought about it, I would agree that Zensei was leaning a little towards scum. But, now we'll have to start over.

And I won't revote for Snow until something new pops up.

[Voidedmafia]

Now that I've thought about it, I would agree that Zensei was leaning a little towards scum. But, now we'll have to start over.

Why is that? I don't think you should start over. The person who replaced in got the same role PM as Zensei. It sucks that they replaced in, but anything he did gets passed on to the replacee.

Spoiler:

I know that, but LLD may have a completely different thought process than Zensei, which means I can't necessarily use Zensei's posts to formulate an opinion on her.

Do I think Zensei is or is leaning toward scum? Yes, I do. But we'll have to wait and see if LLD's play will hold that afloat or make it sink.

And you're welcome, Equinox.

[Voidedmafia]

@Voided: No, LLD and Zensei got the same role PM. Doesn't randomize when they come in.

I can't believe that we'd really want a Zensei lynch today.

Spoiler:

Tht's not what I'm saying, neither of them.

I'm saying that what Zensei has done cannot necessarily be held when seeing what LLD will do. It can, of course, but it shouldn't always be at the forefront.

And I'm not pushing a Zensei wagon, just saying that I see (saw) him as more scum.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

I've simply been observing, is all.

By the way, Otolia, on post 276 you mentioned that "both of you are showing anti-town behavior after urging Sarg, mhi, and myself to join Snow's wagon. Were you referring to use or mb and LLD/GreyICE? If it's the latter, then must I assume you meant all three of us?

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

[img]http://www.court-records.net/animation/ ... 28b%29.gif[/mg]

Wait, weren't you one of the ones who was against claming scumteams this early?

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

So, by obvious mislynch, do you mean "he's the one that we really shouldn't lynch today" or "He's certainly not going to flip the way we might expect if he's lynched"? Or some other option that I don't know of.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

...

I guess you're waiting for me or mhi to post the hammer? We still need to wait for Jorden to post, and actually claim this time.

[Voidedmafia]

As much as I love the Miles Edgeworth gifs, can you maybe switch it up and throw in some Fredrika and others?

Spoiler:

Why would I do that? If I wanted to use Franziska or someone else, I would've decided before we started.

[Voidedmafia]

Now THAT is a gem of a picture. (to mb)


In any case, I would like you to explain your read on me, Primate. No sense in giving opinions (content-laden or not) on everyone else and then just skipping over me. In fact, one could think it'd be pretty suspicious to just tread over me like that.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

...

When did anyone currently on you unvote since Equinox's votecount?

[Voidedmafia]

Snowjordan's vote on Voided looks INCREDIBLY scummy, and an OMGUS vote. No matter how many times you say it isn't, that doesn't make it true.

It might look incredibly scummy of me to vote for VoidedMafia, but it was in fact not, nor was it an OMGUS vote. I felt that if he was that hard-up for trying to get me lynched and push a case against me, he must have something of his own to hide. I know my alignment, therefore I know that I'm town. I don't know anyone else's, but am smart enough to realize that the SCUM do know who each other are and who the town people are. Therefore with the way VoidedMafia came at me so hard, it led me to believe he was a SCUM player. So, I wanted to put a vote in on him. Hoping others might agree with my thinking and follow suit. As we can see now, nearly 7 pages after my vote that's not the case.

[img]

Spoiler:

http://www.court-records.net/animation/ ... 28b%29.gif

[/img]
That would be called tunneling, I believe. And you think that is bad?

And smoking is bad for you! Stop that!

No way! I just had one before posting on here, and will likely have to have one half way through this post. I know it's bad for me, but I enjoy it. So ha!

[img]

Spoiler:

http://www.court-records.net/animation/ ... 28b%29.gif

[/img]
I'd vote for you just for that, but that'd be stupid. Regardless, stop smoking!

[quote="Snowjorden"

Snowjorden

Overall newbie plays of Scum : Lame arguments, poor defense because he claims ...

SCUM - Priority number 1

Welcome to the game, first off. Second, let me dive right into your overall analysis you made, specifically towards me. Lame arguments? Fair enough. Poor defense because I claimed? I was only using the claim as a way to show that at this point in a game, there's really no way to prove innocence. It's one word against another. There's no evidence from write-ups to quote and go on. There's nothing. There's simply people and their thoughts or ideas. You call it lame and poor. I call it realistic. Because fact is, there's no way to prove anything at this point. Just like right now, with the fact I'm sitting at L-2 (or was when writing this part of my post) ..I can't do much to defend what others think. I can warn them that they are wrong in their thinking. You are wrong in your thinking. But I can't really offer much that would help sway your opinion. [/quote]
[img]

Spoiler:

http://www.court-records.net/animation/ ... 28b%29.gif

[/img]
How can you be so sure there's nothing at all? You honestly believe that in all 15 pages we've had so far for D1 there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in regards to information or anything that can sway someone to really being town or scum?

Also, snowjordan, mhi, what's your reads on the new guy?

SCUM or TOWN, I have no clue honestly. My gut feeling says TOWN with a horrible sense of direction for his intent.

[img]

Spoiler:

http://www.court-records.net/animation/ ... 28b%29.gif

[/img]
Question: Why do you keep capitalizing scum or town?

1. You don't like bandwagons? Bandwagons are an essential part to the game and gathering info. What you are suggesting is anti-town.

2. You are opposed to switching your vote? Town should not care if they change their vote. Their first instinct should be to catch scum, and change their vote if they need to. This reads to me like you wanting to stay under the radar, and you being worried about being called out on vote-hopping.

3. So... you are opposed to bandwagons... but you don't want to change your vote? Hmmm.....

1.) Bandwagons are not really an essential part of the game or gathering info. To say that if someone is lynched, it was a bandwagon, is an incorrect statement. 5 votes can be just that, 5 votes. A bandwagon is when someone is targeted, and then people start piling on the votes in an effort to get that person lynched with no real credibility behind said voting. That is SCUMMY. To say it's not, is just asinine. What I was suggesting, was not anti-town.

2.) Town shouldn't care if they switch their vote. But when you're playing such a thin line like I have, and you've had people literally picking at your every word, you don't want to "flip/flop" as that's often times seen as a newbie-scum trait for someone who is just trying to get players eliminated. I've played a few of these games before, and seen newbie players who flip/flopped get jumped on quick for that kind of behavior. So I didn't want that to be ANOTHER thing held against me.

[img]

Spoiler:

http://www.court-records.net/animation/ ... 28b%29.gif

[/img]
1.) But what if people pile on votes to get someone lynched and actually have valid reasons for doing so? Wouldn't that still be bandwagoning?

2.)I don't know. Town or scum, it seems like being too wishy-washy with your vote (or at least not explaing your voting/unvoting half the time) would be a very bad idea. But I'd agree that flip-flopping is generally a bad idea.

GreyICE:
[img]

Spoiler:

http://www.court-records.net/animation/ ... 28b%29.gif

[/img]
I hope we'll have these new reads soon.

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP: Bah.
That would be called tunneling, I believe. And you think that is bad?

And smoking is bad for you! Stop that!

No way! I just had one before posting on here, and will likely have to have one half way through this post. I know it's bad for me, but I enjoy it. So ha!

Spoiler:

I'd vote for you just for that, but that'd be stupid. Regardless, stop smoking!

Snowjorden

Overall newbie plays of Scum : Lame arguments, poor defense because he claims ...

SCUM - Priority number 1

Welcome to the game, first off. Second, let me dive right into your overall analysis you made, specifically towards me. Lame arguments? Fair enough. Poor defense because I claimed? I was only using the claim as a way to show that at this point in a game, there's really no way to prove innocence. It's one word against another. There's no evidence from write-ups to quote and go on. There's nothing. There's simply people and their thoughts or ideas. You call it lame and poor. I call it realistic. Because fact is, there's no way to prove anything at this point. Just like right now, with the fact I'm sitting at L-2 (or was when writing this part of my post) ..I can't do much to defend what others think. I can warn them that they are wrong in their thinking. You are wrong in your thinking. But I can't really offer much that would help sway your opinion.

Spoiler:

How can you be so sure there's nothing at all? You honestly believe that in all 15 pages we've had so far for D1 there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in regards to information or anything that can sway someone to really being town or scum?

Also, snowjordan, mhi, what's your reads on the new guy?

SCUM or TOWN, I have no clue honestly. My gut feeling says TOWN with a horrible sense of direction for his intent.

Spoiler:

Question: Why do you keep capitalizing scum or town?

1. You don't like bandwagons? Bandwagons are an essential part to the game and gathering info. What you are suggesting is anti-town.

2. You are opposed to switching your vote? Town should not care if they change their vote. Their first instinct should be to catch scum, and change their vote if they need to. This reads to me like you wanting to stay under the radar, and you being worried about being called out on vote-hopping.

3. So... you are opposed to bandwagons... but you don't want to change your vote? Hmmm.....

1.) Bandwagons are not really an essential part of the game or gathering info. To say that if someone is lynched, it was a bandwagon, is an incorrect statement. 5 votes can be just that, 5 votes. A bandwagon is when someone is targeted, and then people start piling on the votes in an effort to get that person lynched with no real credibility behind said voting. That is SCUMMY. To say it's not, is just asinine. What I was suggesting, was not anti-town.

2.) Town shouldn't care if they switch their vote. But when you're playing such a thin line like I have, and you've had people literally picking at your every word, you don't want to "flip/flop" as that's often times seen as a newbie-scum trait for someone who is just trying to get players eliminated. I've played a few of these games before, and seen newbie players who flip/flopped get jumped on quick for that kind of behavior. So I didn't want that to be ANOTHER thing held against me.

Spoiler:

1.) But what if people pile on votes to get someone lynched and actually have valid reasons for doing so? Wouldn't that still be bandwagoning?

2.)I don't know. Town or scum, it seems like being too wishy-washy with your vote (or at least not explaing your voting/unvoting half the time) would be a very bad idea. But I'd agree that flip-flopping is generally a bad idea.

GreyICE:

Spoiler:

I hope we'll have these new reads soon.[/quote]

[Voidedmafia]

That would be called tunneling, I believe. And you think that is bad?

I'm not sure I understand the question, could you maybe rephrase? What are you asking if I think is bad?

Spoiler:

You said you voted for me because of my dogged persistence towards you. I believe that is called tunneling. I am asking if you believe such an act as tunneling is bad.

[quote="Snowjorden]

How can you be so sure there's nothing at all? You honestly believe that in all 15 pages we've had so far for D1 there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in regards to information or anything that can sway someone to really being town or scum?

I am not an investigator in real life. Therefore my deductive reasoning based on reading text from someone isn't that good. Maybe it's just me. Maybe you guys are fantastic at it. Either way, what I've always done in other games is create a spread sheet and compare who is mentioned by forum name and who is mentioned by character name in the write-ups together and try to come up with a real dissection of who can be who, to figure out possible roles and use that as a guide as to who to be voting for. I've been very successful in the other games, actually.[/quote]

Spoiler:

Neither am I. However, despite the fact that I am generally not very trusting of what my opinions or searchings are, I could probably pinpoint at least 2-3 bits of useful information from the last 15 pages, and I'm sure you could, too.

Spoiler:

And I don't quite understand your set-up that you talked about here. Care to elaborate?

1.) But what if people pile on votes to get someone lynched and actually have valid reasons for doing so? Wouldn't that still be bandwagoning?

1.) Valid reasons is not really bandwagoning. At least, not how the term has always been used where I've played before.

Spoiler:

I wouldn't know. That'd be something I'd have to confirm with the SEs or IC.

Also, care to point to anything I've said that made you unvote? The fact that you unvoted RIGHT AFTER saying (or rather, agreeing with me) that flip-flopping votes is bad isn't a good idea.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

GreyICE, isn't voting for him because of how he writes not something you do outside of RVS?

Yes, I can see that your decision is not made entirely around that accusation--it seems that his statement that he can't find anything in D1 is also a factor in that post, as well--but your vote post pretty much says, "I hate how you write your posts and want you out" to me.

Spoiler:

Also, what IS hydrad?

[Voidedmafia]

Also, what IS hydrad?

It's because you don't know what hydra is that you think GreyICE want him out because of his writing style. Hydra-ing (... quite hard to build a ver with that) is a technique consisting on playing a game with 2 persons (or more) on the same account.

I don't agree with this, however I am surprised by the modification of Snowjorden writing style over the course of the game.

Spoiler:

hmm...I will admit that going from the defensive/defeatist Snowjorden from earlier to the assertive person now is quite suspicious given the gap in play that he's taken since our argument. Still, I don't think we can rule out that he has simply modified his playing style just yet.

Spoiler:

However, if there are indeed two people playing as Snowjorden, that is certainly a hefty catch that GreyICE has caught.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

You missed the third link, by the way.

In any case...

Spoiler:

Post 1:

While I can't particularly comment on the spectrum part of his post (quite frankly, I'm in a similar spot myself), I still find it dubious (and I will continue to push this point) that he cannot find ONE SINGLE THING from the last 15 pages on ANY OF US. I also am in disagreement that pushing for a D1 lynch is scummy because there are times where someone (or some

ones

, as it may be) can make a pretty big scumslip that can make a D1 lynch infinitely easier, and possibly even D2. Sure, such a possiblity is too much of an exaggeration, but even with a moderate example I can't just deride all D1 lynch pushes as scumtells or scummy behavior.

Post 2:

He seems pretty confident that he's town in the first paragraph, and equally confident that I'm scum, though this is before the first post you linked. And to me it seems he's based his vote purely because I pushed on him so much. That's not necessarily bad in and of itself, but he still didn't have much of a foundation with it, and once that particular arguemnt is (or got) destroyed, he has nothing left to put on me.

2nd paragraph is fluff, admittedly caused by myself.

The 3rd paragraph is what he essentially rephrases in the 1st linked post.

I got nothing on the 4th paragraph.

The 5th paragraph can be seen as an attempt to get people of his back. I personally see it with a bit of a whining tone to it

The rest I've already covered as a direct response.

Spoiler:

As I think you can see, I don't hold a lot of faith in his arguments in those two posts, and will act accordingly.

FoS: Snowjorden

(if I didn't have it on him already).

Now, for your questions, Oto:

1.) Pretty much all three people he said were leaning scummy were people who had or are currently pushing on him. If this keeps up, he could very well label everyone who pushes him reasonably enough as leaning scum or flat-out scummy.

2.) If Jorden is actually town, it could very well mean that one of us who he labelled as leaning scum (which, I'll add, were people who really pushed him) is actually scum. Even if that's not true, I could see some suspicion hanging on us for most of D2.
If Jorden is really scum, then we might have to look at mb. Mb is pretty much one of the only people calling Jorden town, and one of the few people Jorden has expressed any form of complete agreement with.

[Voidedmafia]

Wow ...this has slowed down tremendously.

...

...

This...THis is completely unacceptable.

If you had said something along the lines of "Wow, this has slowed down, I might as well get on with answering questions" or exuded such an attitude, I would've let this post slide. However, you have failed to defend against anyone's accusations against you, nor have you given any indication of doing so.

You have just sealed your own fate.

Vote: SnowJorden

No GIF cuz the place ain't working.

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP: Now that that's taken care of, we ought to take a good look at mb53. I think, out of all of us, he's been the only one to really back up Snow at all, and pretty much the only person Snow has agreed with. THat's not to say he hasn't agreed with anyone else, though, but they've agreed with each other more than he's agreed with any of us.

If Snow is town, I still say we should look into mb, but I'm not sure who else to go after if this scenario is true.
If Snow is scum, I really must push us to look at mb as soon as possible. He may not be a scumbuddy, but the reasons I stated above certainly should give rise to investigation.

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP2: Also, did anyone else have their page say the site was down or something like that?

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP: Now that that's taken care of, we ought to take a good look at mb53. I think, out of all of us, he's been the only one to really back up Snow at all, and pretty much the only person Snow has agreed with. THat's not to say he hasn't agreed with anyone else, though, but they've agreed with each other more than he's agreed with any of us.

If Snow is town, I still say we should look into mb, but I'm not sure who else to go after if this scenario is true.
If Snow is scum, I really must push us to look at mb as soon as possible. He may not be a scumbuddy, but the reasons I stated above certainly should give rise to investigation.

Spoiler:

I still highly believe this is our best course of action to take as the first thing we all do today. Considering that Snow indeed flipped town, mb is definitely a prime target for either buddying or scumbuddying (or just one of them, if they're interchangable).

I will also give my ISO of mb soon as well, but I need to go get my hair cut today.

GreyICE:

Spoiler:

I must agree with that, somewhat.

Spoiler:

After all, I was one of the ones who really heckled Snowjorden. But might this be because LLD really heckled Oto? Certainly that's WIFOM territory, but she or I probably would've been the prime targets based on what we did yesterday.

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP:

Spoiler:

In any case, we have plenty of time with a 6-1 town:scum ratio right out of D1.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

...

Spoiler:

You do know I just effectively said that, right?

[Voidedmafia]

After reading over SnowJordan's ISO, I'm ok with lynching him. If he flip scums, I have someone in mind who could possibly be his scum buddy.

Remember this?

Vote: mb53

He was the someone I had in mind. Looks like Voided picked up on the same thing I did as well, indicated by his last post before the thread got locked.

Going to my Sister's to watch the UFC event tonight, so probably wont post much tonight.

Spoiler:

I would agree we both picked up on something.

Spoiler:

I'm just not sure we picked up on the same thing. I simply noted how mb and Snow were rather in agreement with each other...

...

Spoiler:

Actually, in agreement a little too much.

[Voidedmafia]

...

THAT was breadcruming?! Really?

...Is that any breadcrumbing method that's allowed, ICE?

However, if this claim IS true, that leaves the question of who you tried to save last night, assuming you weren't roleblocked. Which is apparantly me. And how do you know there's NOT a roleblocker? There could be a cop here and they roleblocked him instead of you.

Primate: I'm not quite sure what to make of that post big post, honestly. But wow, talk about a quick jump-off.

FoS: Primate

ICE: Is it generally not a bad thing to be the hammer on two consecutive days? Or is that a bad thing?

Spoiler:

Damn site is down again, so no Edgeworth GIFs.

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP: FOR THE LAST TIME, IT'S "SARG" WITH NO E!

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

Before I begin my long-awaited mb ISO, I'd like to ask:

Mod, why is that post reserved? Unless it's for a votecount, which I'd really like sometime soon.

I reserve posts for vote counts. Sorry about the delay; I just got home. (Equinox)

Anyways, on to business.

Spoiler:

MB53 ISO:

ISO 1: Agrees with much of Sarg's first post, then RVS votes me.
ISO 2 and 3: Pretty much fluff. So are 4 and 5, unless the mammut vote isn't RVS.
ISO 6: Keeps vote on Mammut. States he likes BWs early and gets really into it around page 7 or so
ISO 7: Says Sarg's points against Zensei (who I think was replaced by LLD) were stupid
ISO 8: ISO of Sarg, imo misinterprets my argument, and again calls out Sarg's argument.
ISO 9: Again calls out Sarg and I for arguing his "point of questions" point.
ISO 10: So far is the only time he hasn't acutely agreed with Snow or presented a point that Snow agrees with.
ISO 11: Still talking to Snow
ISO 12: Starts to agree with Snow, then goes to saying he's going the wrong direction.
ISO 13: Tries to correct Snow on the number of people, explains another way of how voting is used, points out Sarg's fluff (some of which was with YOU, I might add) and talks about ISO, and first says Snow has a town read.
ISO 14: Prod and stuff about ideas.
ISO 15: First direct defense for Snow, telling Sarg to actually build a case
ISO 16-18: First part prompted the whole "How is that a claim" argument, agrees with Primate's mhi vote, basing most of it here on his agreeing most of the time. 17 and 18 are EBWOP for a vote.
ISO 19-20: Imo complains that I didn't talk about him at all when arguing with Snow or a little after that.
ISO 21: Thinks there isn't daytalk (and I think that's true), questions the validity of mhi saying he can't be one more than once a day, and is confused by a quote of his (mhi).
ISO 22: EBWOP
ISO 23: Points out how Jorden VT claiming is bad, especially at l-3
ISO 24: Explains that "role claim" line stated in ISO 16
ISO 25: Latches onto Mammut's replacement, Otolia.
ISO 26: fluff
ISO 27: Thinks the SWW is bad
ISO 28: Imo fluff
ISO 29: Big post against Oto's last post. I can break this down if anyone wants me to
ISO 30: Derides oto for both a.) assuming not all the quotes were from Oto, and b.) not understanding what he was doing. One of the few posts I agree with from him, as well.
ISO 31: Further Oto argument. Also thinks defending others isn't scummy (and I think implying it's not a scumtell)
ISO 32: Derides Oto, thinks SWW is easy for scum (even though Snow is eventually scum himself), again derides and refutes Oto, more deriding, ends with fluff.
ISO 33: Confused at one of Oto's posts.
ISO 34: fluff
ISO 35: Thinks Jorden's the mislynch (though he's proven wrong), thinks Sarg's buddy is himself, won't hammer, and SRS BSNS!!!
ISO 36: Says bussing on D1's been done before
ISO 37: fluff
ISO 38: Apparant Doc breadcrumb post. and Repeats, mainly, besides saying ICE would have to rethink his read
ISO 39: Fluff. Last post before I hammered Snow.
ISO 40: Votes Oto once D2 starts
ISO 41: Basically evades questions and explaning himself. What marathon weekend, anyways?
ISO 42: Fluff, last post before Primate finally reappears for D2
ISO 43: Says that Primate's big post was just BWing and being hypocritical.
ISO 44: Gives Breadcrumb post
ISO 45-46: Thinks there's only 2 goons and no RB
ISO 47: Asks for counter-claims..
ISO 48: says he's never played a PR
ISO 49: Explains the reason for breadcrumb
ISO 50: Says he's glad he didn't pursue Oto, says that bussing was essentially the only option in D1, says that scum could've bussed Jorden, and derides Oto for parroting.

So, in conclusion, while I was wrong in the frequency of SJ agreement, the number of times each one has agreed with the other is more than the times they've disagreed. Also, he's basically gone off and on with Oto, and has really only stayed with him when Oto first replaced in. Because of the SJ agreement, I called him scum, and still stand by saying that that was scummy. The Oto stuff is simply null, as I'm not sure whether the off-and-on arguing is really a scum or towntell. I still don't trust the roleclaim however, and my FoS stands.

Primate's probably going to be next, since he's the other PoS (Person of Suspicion).

Oto:

Spoiler:

Why would they intentionally bus so that they go into Lylo alone? There's no point.

Spoiler:

And why are you so miffed over that whole LoL-stuff?

ICE:

Spoiler:

I think I share your pain.

[Voidedmafia]

Voided's ISO: First off, all post numbers are wrong, because it starts at post 0 (In case of confusion). In my response, I'm using the real numbers (In case of confusion).

Spoiler:

My apologies.

Post 3 and 4 are not fluff.

Spoiler:

Post 3 (or 4 in my ISO) is not, post 4 (5) is only if the vote is not because of RVS.

Oh you skipped post 5, so the numbers are correct now.

Spoiler:

Not quite sure what to make of it, except that it's very sarcastic.

ISO 13: Tries to correct Snow on the number of people, explains another way of how voting is used, points out Sarg's fluff (some of which was with YOU, I might add) and talks about ISO, and first says Snow has a town read.

I had 2 posts of fluff. Sarg has had over 10.

Spoiler:

That is not my point, nor a point I tried to make.

ISO 19-20: Imo complains that I didn't talk about him at all when arguing with Snow or a little after that.

I wasn't complaining... You left out me in your opinions of everyone. [/quote]

Spoiler:

I'm so sorry, then. I did cover you after that.

28 wasn't fluff, especially considering we had a small discussion after I said it.

Spoiler:

Well, I did ignore that, so I just considered it fluff for me. Apologies.

34: Telling people to kick up the activity isn't fluff.

Spoiler:

In regards to content, it is fluff. Though, it still fell on deaf ears.

37 had a purpose... therefor wasn't fluff

Spoiler:

What? The whole breadcrumbing thing? Doesn't seem to be much of a link beyond the fact that you apologized for what you said here in your BC post.

39 isn't fluff either... I am questioning whether you know what fluff is.

Spoiler:

See ISO 34. I may be skewing the definition of fluff, however, I'll admit that.

Honestly, after reading your ISO on me should make me seem more of a townie than before the ISO... You didn't really point out anything scummy that I have done.

Spoiler:

To be honest, I'm not that great at ISOs, so excuse me from not giving anything definite. I did, however, point out scummy behavior, though apparantly Your Milage May Vary as to how much.

Marathon Games

Spoiler:

This for me?

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

Mod: Votecount, please.

Done. (Equinox)

I assume you mean these two?

Wow ...this has slowed down tremendously.

It got quite. :*(

First off: snowjorden was hammered for that because he had a ton of stuff to respond to. I already responded to everything (if I missed something please direct me to it). Second, activity=good.

Spoiler:

He speaks the truth here.

Ah, ICE is voting me again. For wagon hopping? First off, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has ever voted oto. Second, I gave my own reasons for voting primate, therefor I wasn't just following the (1 vote) wagon.

Spoiler:

Actually, LLD voted for Oto D1, if you could kindly recall.

Yes, you asked what marathon games were.

Spoiler:

Oh, well, thank you. Slipped my mind.

Post 3 (or 4 in my ISO) is not, post 4 (5) is only if the vote is not because of RVS.

I thought it was clear that I did that to bandwagon out of RVS

Spoiler:

It appears that what you intended and what you got were two entirely different things. I understood you were jumping off an RVS bandwagon, but I wasn't sure it was powered mainly by RVS.

What? The whole breadcrumbing thing? Doesn't seem to be much of a link beyond the fact that you apologized for what you said here in your BC post.

It was for the purpose of breadcrumbing, and apologizing for my post not having everything I wanted.

Spoiler:

The post before your BC post, to me at least, is fluff. The actual BC post is not. Besides, I'm only talking about the post before the BC here.

BTW, not at all game related, but pretty awesome that Voided has figured out that ISOs don't necessarily tell you that much and that they're better as tools than as be all and end alls. A lot of people get stuck on them for game after game, especially players who like things to line up.

Spoiler:

...

I don't think I figured out anything, though...

Spoiler:

By the way, you didn't answer my question as to whether or not being the hammer vote two times consecutively is a good or bad thing.

I am currently throwing away the game. Nothing more, nothing less. Lynch me if you want but I won't do aything else than actively lurking until Mb53 say that HoN is a better game than LoL. This is also true for Sarg.

And don't be a chicken GreyICE, don't unvote like this ...

Spoiler:

This post (and anything around it) is so stupid it deserves breaking off of using Edgeworth GIFs JUST for this one. God DAMN.

Can we PLEASE stop this stupid as hell off-topic fluff? PLEASE?!

I think I've done this post the editing justice it needs. Let me know if I didn't do it correctly. (Equinox)

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP:

Spoiler:

Mod: Votecount, please.

*stupid stuff*

Spoiler:

This post (and anything around it) is so stupid it deserves breaking off of using Edgeworth GIFs JUST for this one. God DAMN.

Can we PLEASE stop this stupid as hell off-topic fluff? PLEASE?!

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP:

Spoiler:

And, uh, please fix my quote tags, too. The spoiler tags should help with that.

[Voidedmafia]

Your mod fails at stalking the thread... ;_;

Spoiler:

How dare...!

I wasn't arguing for his lynch though. I was arguing against his lynch. I changed my mind on that yesterday shortly after his claim.

I'm going to change it back after having a day to think about it. I did think his claim was plausible, but it's also completely believable that under pressure like this he would make a claim like that.

I also wouldn't be happy him getting to endgame based on what I think is solely that claim and I suppose that's the test as to whether you actually believe something.

Going to keep thinking about it but I'm very likely going to hammer before I go to sleep which'll be about an hour.

Yay, if he flips town, a blind monkey would lynch you for this post so I don't even have to worry about being the victim of the night kill.

Spoiler:

I can agree with this. I still need to ISO Primate, and he was going to be my next point of suspicion if mb53 flips town, based on what he's done D2. He sounds similar to SnowJOrden before I heckled the latter, too.

Oto sounds more like a frustrated town, if not frustrated null. But I HATE this stupid tangent about LoL and DotA and HoN.

In any case, I'm not going to hammer mb now. As much as we're all suspicious of his doc claim and BC, the fact that he claimed the role stays my hand more than anything, like with Primate. You may consider it a scummy move for me, as well, but I'm just hesitant at lynching PRs.

[Voidedmafia]

Spoiler:

I am annoyed that you seemingly seriously considered dropping out because someone thought that a game you liked wasn't as good as a game he liked.

No matter what your intentions, this tangent was, and will be, stupid.

Spoiler:

Also, I never said that.

Spoiler:

And it's "around"

GreyICE:

Spoiler:

Not pinning anything on you or anything, but why was that split up into three posts?

[Voidedmafia]

Happy birthday, ICE.

YOU BETTER WIN IT, SARG! OR LOSE, IF YOU'RE SCUM!

[Voidedmafia]

SARG, YOU BACKSTABBING BASTARD!

*sniff* I TRUSTED YOU!!

[Voidedmafia]

<_< Like I didn't know that.

Lemme have my loloutbursts, please.

[Voidedmafia]

Good questoin, Oto.

Jorden: You shouldn't have done what you did, or else you would've been in longer than this.

[Voidedmafia]

If it's any indication, I wouldn't have killed GreyICE either, in his situation.

Well, wasn't it between him or me for a good N2 kill? Or do I have it wrong?

[Voidedmafia]

When you came in near the end of D1 acting similar to mb's post when you had questions you needed to answer and a couple other things that people had asked.

Wrong post at the wrong time, Snow.

[Voidedmafia]

I could tell, Robo. ^_^

[Voidedmafia]

Unsuscribing.

no, don't do that.

If you're going to apply for IC, you'll need this game for review.

[Voidedmafia]

But I'm too busy for that. Robocopter...