A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Raivann]

Vote Sparkle

Nominate Setael

I agree with Benmage's scumlist very much. While getting caught up today i noticed his and Magua's posts jumped out as supertownie.
Thor is still scum.

[Feysal]

Another day. I have little to say about how yesterday ended. I never really got why so many people found Zoraster scummier than Raivann, but after his claim it was obvious he was lying, and had to die.

Today, I don't get why so many people are suspecting Bunnylover. I don't claim to have a good read on her, but I don't think the points made against her are convincing.

The Zoraster case I'm not really seeing.
I understand why MoI is voting for him, but that's not why others are voting for him.

Again, these two lines do not compute.

Bunny please explain your thinking here. If you don't see a Zoraster case how can it make sense that I am voting for him? That's contradictory.

Either you see the case I have laid out and think it make sense for me to be voting him (thus you see the case) or you don't see any valid case on him and thus my voting for him doesn't make sense.

I get what you're talking about, but I don't think this is much of a contradiction. After all, Bunnylover can understand why people voted Zoraster without having to agree with them, thus not seeing what the case was about. This is also how I felt about Zoraster yesterday. I had read him in ISO, and thought that he was somewhat scummy, but not nearly enough to explain why so many had him as their primary suspect.

The Zoraster FOS buddy - Vote Townie is nice. Frankly I would rather lynch Raivann (the FOS buddy) which upon flip of a scum result will prove (or at least strengthen) the fact that Zoraster was in fact doing that.
Lynching Zoraster really doesn't dissolve Raivann status.

Um what? Implicit in your agreement that Zoraster is possibly pulling the "Vote: Town, FOS: Partner" play is the fact that you MUST think Zoraster is scum. If you think Raivann is scum and are unsure of Zoraster it doesn't make sense to make the link in the reverse direction. It is not a bi-directional tell.

Now I don't follow you, since Bunnylover's statement makes perfect sense to me. We had two suspects, Raivann and Zoraster, and a possible tell that made Zoraster appear scummier if Raivann was also scum. Thus it makes perfect sense to lynch the one who is individually scummier, and given who Bunnylover was voting and what she said about the Zoraster case, it is clear that she found Raivann scummier. Had Raivann been lynched and flipped scum, the tell would have been strengthened, and if Raivann did not flip scum, the tell would have been disproven. Just because Bunnylover thought that the "vote townie, FOS partner" play was

possible

, that does not mean she would

have to

think that Zoraster would be scum. It is obvious she was not at all sure about that.

What happened next? Bunnylover answered in post #847, and diddin noted a possible scumslip from her in #887. MoI also catches the same thing in #907. It is bad enough that MoI goes on about this bidirectional tell thing that Bunnylover never said, but the fact that this whole slip was pointed out by

confirmed scum diddin

really makes me question its validity. I no longer think there are two scum factions, and thus sheeping the case of a confirmed scum seems like an exceptionally bad idea. If you want to sell me this idea of Bunnylover being scum, you'll have to try harder.

Bunny's insistence on lynching Raivann today is scummy.

Unvote, Vote: Zoraster

. His claim is obv. scum. Bunny's slip has also been noted by myself and others and Bunny still wants Raivann lynch. That makes me lose quite a lot of faith in the Raivann case.

This was diddin's last post. Barely anything about Zoraster, and more trying to paint Bunnylover black. This reads to me like scum trying to save his partner or delay his lynch by diverting suspicion to a townie. Yes, I continue to think Raivann is likely scum. I've seen arguments that Raivann would be unlikely to be a Stark because Xtoxm voted xvart right after him, and because diddin was voting him. I think the first argument is inconclusive and the second is possible bussing. I don't think either argument is good enough while Raivann has still not explained his weird behavior.

Oh, and I should probably explain why I think we only have one scum faction. Given the size of the game, I think scum factions would most likely have three members if there were two factions, four at most. We've had two Starks flip, both of them power roles. To balance that, the theoretical other scum faction should also have power roles. If factions had three members each, that would mean that the majority of the scum had powers, and if there were godfathers, there would be no room for goons at all. That is one thing. In addition, Brynden Tully seems to be a relatively obscure character, and if you had to pick three or four characters on the Stark side, I don't think he would make the cut. My conclusion is that there is only one main mafia faction, the Starks.

Therefore,

Vote: Raivann

I still want to hear answers to the questions I asked yesterday.

[Raivann]

I originally voted Song because she wasn't posting and was browsing the forum. I think she had 1 post when I voted her.

[Raivann]

WIFOM- Why chesskid? All he talked about was MoI being scum.

[Feysal]

Chesskid had soft claimed Tywin Lannister, by saying his character had been the Hand before. The scum may have believed him and thought that Tywin would be a power role. If Chesskid did that on purpose, it was actually well done... he managed to draw a night kill, saving someone else and avoiding his own potential policy lynch.

Back to the initial vote on Song, I really don't think it was reasonable when the game had only just started. I had not posted yet at all at that time. Also, Song posted right after, and had apparently been writing a post when seen, so the vote became pointless immediately. Why anyone would try to construct a case after voting rather than the other way around baffles me, and the fact that the post only looked scummy

the second time you replied to it

makes me doubt how genuine that scummy read ever was. Sheeping a point against Song from one of your scum reads did not make much sense either.

[Raivann]

I was triyng to get content out of her then she made a scummy post, I don't see anything baffling there.

What "second time" are you talking about? I just iso'ed myself and I questioned her about it in my very next post!

You talking about sheeping MoI's point? meh.

[Zdenek]

I'm sorry for my absence. I'd hoped to get caught up yesterday, but I couldn't access the internet from the airport I was flying from. I need a day to think about things and I will post tomorrow, but in the meanwhile . . . .

I strongly doubt that Magua is Stark because of his push on diddin yesterday.

I am willing to accept that because of the flavour that LL is cleared (my own knowledge of flavour is minimal, so I really am trusting others here)

I agree with MoI that Twilight Sparkle's use of soft accusations against him is scummy.
MoI, since Zoraster's flip, what are your opinions of Nexus and Dana?

I would guess that Bunnylover isn't Stark because of diddin's attack on her yesterday.

[Thor665]

1. You complain about lack of meaty content to comment on.
2. You say you like Locke’s play, but he had two posts by page 8 consists solely of a RVS vote and a small comment on DGB based on loose meta. He certainly didn’t provide any ‘meaty content’ by that point.
3. You say you like Grey’s play despite his back-tracking and arguments that were repeatedly proven wrong or misguided.
4. You don’t comment at all about DGB despite him being the focus of your two Town reads above.

1. Yes.
2. Yes...but, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China. I never said it was impossible for me to get reads, I complained there was a lack of content - ergo, I thought there should have been more. Find me a game I've played in the last six months where I haven't claimed there is usable content within 1-2 pages. Your conclusion is presuming an opinion - whoop de doo, I don't share the opinion you presume I have.
3. Yes. How is this scummy?
4. Yes. How is this scummy?

I don’t see the Town motivation for you to dislike DGB’s play but be afraid to voice your own opinion on it. It looks like you are happy to let others do the dirty work for you in that regard based on the difficulty of attacking DGB that you later state. Futhermore I find your explanation for your Town reads on those players to be lacking.

Fair enough on DGB, but you're barking up a nothing tree as it was hardly a conscious plan.
Also, fascinatingly enough, having reads that MoI doesn't agree with isn't a scum tell. True story. This angle is ridiculous.

Until then - your current stated case as I am aware of it, is really weak. "They aren't townie enough" That's not a case.

Never said it was a case. You are the only one attempting to assert it is. My interactions and obeservations made Day with and about Twilight Sparkle are the base of my vote.

All I hear is this;

Herpy da derpy - Thor asked me to state the rest of my case, I refuse because he needs to read moar and I only wall post in the present, he then says that what he sees thus far is weaksauce and now I'll attack him for calling it my case and reference as evidence the case he has openly admitted to not seeing yet and also stated a desire to see which I refused to aid in. Oh yeah, I'll also suggest he's misrepping my case! Herpy-da-doo-dah.

Really, MoI? Really? Please tell me if you're serious on this one because it will make my read on you infinitely simple.

^^^
Last question is tech, wtf MoI, wtf indeed.

[Twilight Sparkle]

For the record, I am here, but it's just me (Mina's on vacation, Sotty is sick.) I'm sick as well, but it's a more manageable sick and I'm catching up in bits and pieces. The names still run together in my head and it's making the whole thing hard to follow.

I agree with the arguments that there's probably just one scum team. Specifically, the lack of kill flavor and the relative obscurity of Bryden Tully.

I still have yet to catch up fully so I'll withhold my vote for now.

Apologies for all of this; I'm aware this is an unacceptable level of content but the simple fact of the matter is I've got a lot going on right now and my other game is taking priority (because when you're already caught-up, you can easily spend time to stay caught-up.)

More from me soon.

~hito

[DrippingGoofball]

One of Twilight Sparkle and Mikujin are scum. I put my money on Mikujin.
One of these three is scum: Danakillsu, Locke Lamora, Thor665. I put my money on Locke Lamora.

Mikujin or Lock Lamora would make excellent lynches for today.

What say you to Zoraster being a lyncher? Do you think zoraster's target would be a scum member? I would lean believing that LL is town right now based on this information.

It's not impossible, but I agree, I need to downgrade my suspicion.

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 2.3

Raivann (2) Shadow1psc, Feysal

Twilight Sparkle (4) Magua, MagnaofIllusion, Benmage, Raivann

Bunnylover (2) Ghostlin, hasdgfas
Setael (3) Danakillsu, DrippingGoofball, LynchMePls
danakillsu (1) Kast
Ghostlin (1) xvart

Not voting (8) Zdenek, Twilight Sparkle, Bunnylover, Nexus, Setael, DTMaster, Locke Lamora, Thor665

With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. No majority at deadline and there'll be no lynch.

Envoy to the Eyrie

[/u]

Setael (3) Magua, Benmage, Raivann

Bunnylover (4) Danakillsu, MagnaofIllusion, LynchMePls, xvart

Raivann (2) Bunnylover, Ghostlin
Zdenek (1) Kast


Not nominating (11) Twilight Sparkle, Shadow1psc, Nexus, DrippingGoofball, Locke Lamora, DTMaster, Thor665, Setael, Zdenek, Feysal, Hasgfas

With 21 alive it takes 11 to sent someone to the Eyrie

* I'll prd people Monday.
* Kast is on V/la. As is THE LOCKE. As is Nexus.
* Any mistakes in the VC point them out
*The deadline is two weeks and can be found here.

[/quote]

[hasdgfas]

d the relative obscurity of Bryden Tully.

[Ghostlin]

I'm sorry for my absence. I'd hoped to get caught up yesterday, but I couldn't access the internet from the airport I was flying from. I need a day to think about things and I will post tomorrow, but in the meanwhile . . . .

I strongly doubt that Magua is Stark because of his push on diddin yesterday.

I am willing to accept that because of the flavour that LL is cleared (my own knowledge of flavour is minimal, so I really am trusting others here)

I agree with MoI that Twilight Sparkle's use of soft accusations against him is scummy.
MoI, since Zoraster's flip, what are your opinions of Nexus and Dana?

I would guess that Bunnylover isn't Stark because of diddin's attack on her yesterday.

'
Hrrr? With the existence of bussing and even voting on town wagons as scum, I don't see how you can use interactions on the deceased as reliable.

I can agree with LL assertion of possibly being town due to the fact a lyncher probably doesn't have a scum target and Zoa's eagerness to push the point yesterday, but the rest of this is blantant WIFOM reasoning. And trying to make guesses about flavor 100% seems like outguessing the mod to me. I dislike this post. I think I'll have to reread you.

[Benmage]

Diddin's death seems to imply a third faction, something that was brought up before. We could have a Vig, sure, you've been pretty analytical Magua, what do you think there?

Vig...Probably SK. Second scum faction is looking less than likely if you ask me.


DGB post 967 you have me in two places.

One of Twilight Sparkle and Mikujin are scum. I put my money on Mikujin.
One of these three is scum: Danakillsu, Locke Lamora, Thor665. I put my money on Locke Lamora.

Mikujin or Lock Lamora would make excellent lynches for today.

So you dont think Zoraster more or less clears LL? Between Dana, LL, Thor... You will only be able to lynch Thor.

A Hydra composed of Hito, Mina and Sotty should have had a much more Pro-Town Day 1 if they are Lannister aligned.

Bingo

@Magua: What's the case on Twilight?

Vote: Mikujin
Nominate: Bunnylover

Whats the case on Mikujin?

Most of you have said she's consistently been playing a bad game; I still think there's a chance she's scummy.

Reading Rai's ISO, he may not be scummy (although I'd almost bet a cheeseburger that he stands a good chance of it)

Flip-flop-flip-flip flip-flippity-flop….Time to proxy vote to Benmage.

I said there wasn't anything "too meaty" which is different from lack of anything meaty by quite a bit - and if you're going to be so seriously pedantic in taking in my comments I'm shocked you would overlook that. What is wrong with drawing conclusions when I don't think there has been anything really impressive - there is *nothing* that does not compute there.

Circle talking here. I.e. IIoA. This is semantical fluff meant to appear active. Thor is scum.

A Hydra composed of Hito, Mina and Sotty should have had a much more Pro-Town Day 1 if they are Lannister aligned.

Is there more to the Sparkle case than this? Because though this isn't exactly posh, it's not exactly top case of the day material either - usually you like thicker walls.

Someone's busting out the chainsaws early. (Yes this cant be "chainsaw" till a flip....call it foreshadowing for now.)

ISO 19-20: Wants LL to claim; thing is, I wouldn't claim if I wasn't at L-1. This also reads an argument against MoI for having different reasons for placing a vote and NOT sheeping. This then dissolves into a WIFOMsque speculation on NKs that I'm not sure helps anyone, ever, and seems to ignore Doctors and Roleblockers.

This waffling is why BL is town. BL isn't a good player by any means Ghostlin. So it is easy to confuse his play as scummy when in reality its just poor. Yes it is tough to distinguish the two. The glaring town-tell should be his indolence in voting when faced with a horrid fakeclaim. Scum (like diddin and sparkl) would vote it without thinking twice. Even VI scum such as BL would've voted.

In general I believe scum have less motivation to pay close attention to the thread. Thus my suspicion.

Ehh...Not really. Town can afford to be more lackadaisical if you ask me. Scum are trying to play the cautious game and want to ensure what they say is usually secure.

splitting hairs verbally is likewise suspect.

QFT. Thor is scum.

"They aren't townie enough" That's not a case.

Thats worked for me a lot.

Player A acts like "xxxxx" when town and "zzzzz" when scum.
Player A is acting like "zzzzz".
Player A is scum.

Its meta and its fucking great.

@Magua:

Not sure where I'm going to put my vote.

I'm debating with-in my head rather or not to vote Raivann, but if he town he just such an easy mislynch.

I mean even I think he's scum

, and

I'm useless in my reads almost all my games

except for three and one was with like 8 people left.

Do you see the discrepancy here?

I dont.

I never had a vote on xvart - my slot did. Difference.

What do you think of Xvart?

Next someone will talk they’re way out of being tracked to a dead guy. FML.

Not likely since the two times we have seen it happen in joint games both players have been scum (ReaperCharlie in Supernatural and Maclock in Clash).

I've known this forever. I'm sure you'd not let it get past yourself....But I worry about the town VI's I want living.

[Benmage]

Vote count 2.3

Raivann (2) Shadow1psc, Feysal
Bunnylover (2) Ghostlin, hasdgfas
Setael (3) Danakillsu, DrippingGoofball, LynchMePls
danakillsu (1) Kast
Ghostlin (1) xvart

Not voting (8) Zdenek, Twilight Sparkle, Bunnylover, Nexus, Setael, DTMaster, Locke Lamora, Thor665

With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. No majority at deadline and there'll be no lynch.

Adjust all of these votes accordingly.

I am going to give Setael's slot the benefit of the doubt for today. Feel free to still nominate.

NEUTRAL

GreyICE

DTMaster
DrippingGoofball
xvart
LynchMePls
Zdenek

SCUM
Feysal
Kast

MORE SCUM
Nexus

Song of ice and fire

Thor665
Twilight Sparkle

Here is the list of people you may choose to lynch from and attack. There are still many scum left. You'd have to be a fool to think there's no scum in this list. Attack and find them.

No other lynches will be accepted for today.

The Hand speaks with the king's voice.

[Benmage]

Cow

What do you think of the segment in my post 1016 where I differentiate what a town-VI looks like and what a scum looks like.

[Benmage]

In addition, Brynden Tully seems to be a relatively obscure character, and if you had to pick three or four characters on the Stark side, I don't think he would make the cut. My conclusion is that there is only one main mafia faction, the Starks.

Lets not get crazy on the flavor. Bryden Tully is a badass if you ask me....But uhh yeah. I'm thinking one scum team.

Therefore,

Vote: Raivann

Bullet the Raivann case.

d the relative obscurity of Bryden Tully.

Yeah...dudes BA. Escapes the Riverrun when the turn it over. Come on.

[Thor665]

I said there wasn't anything "too meaty" which is different from lack of anything meaty by quite a bit - and if you're going to be so seriously pedantic in taking in my comments I'm shocked you would overlook that. What is wrong with drawing conclusions when I don't think there has been anything really impressive - there is *nothing* that does not compute there.

Circle talking here. I.e. IIoA. This is semantical fluff meant to appear active. Thor is scum.

Or it's an answer to a direct question. Also it is analysis - just analysis of my own play...unless you agree it's factual information but at that point it still is valid to have provided the information to disprove MoI's issue with me. Extract noggin from anus please.

A Hydra composed of Hito, Mina and Sotty should have had a much more Pro-Town Day 1 if they are Lannister aligned.

Is there more to the Sparkle case than this? Because though this isn't exactly posh, it's not exactly top case of the day material either - usually you like thicker walls.

Someone's busting out the chainsaws early. (Yes this cant be "chainsaw" till a flip....call it foreshadowing for now.)

Uf da!

splitting hairs verbally is likewise suspect.

QFT. Thor is scum.

You honestly find his initial attack on me for the language *not* splitting hairs? You then agree that me pointing out that his hair splitting ignores how what I said is perfectly functional and decide that makes me scum? Ben, are you just too puffed up at the moment, or am I totally missing how MoI's issue on me is the most brilliant case ever? Because I look at it and see silliness and nothingness in equal amounts. I'll accept it as a scumtell on me - but only if you admit it's a scumtell on MoI first. Justify how it only works one way.

"They aren't townie enough" That's not a case.

Thats worked for me a lot.

Player A acts like "xxxxx" when town and "zzzzz" when scum.
Player A is acting like "zzzzz".
Player A is scum.

Its meta and its Smurfing great.

Yeah, but when 'xxxxxx' is "more townie and 'zzzzz' is 'not as townie as I believe they should be it's not really meta anymore, is it? It's an arbitrary and undefined decision of where the level of towniness you decide they are worthy of exists.

I expect MoI to be more townie then his weak attacks on me have been.

Is the above brilliant wrapped in win or no?

I never had a vote on xvart - my slot did. Difference.

What do you think of Xvart?

I'll let you know when I read up. He's given me zero to go on since I started posting, as he hasn't, and I still have all the back pages to catch up on.

[Benmage]

Thor

Where are you on your 9-32 pg read through?

[Benmage]

I'll accept it as a scumtell on me - but only if you admit it's a scumtell on MoI first. Justify how it only works one way.

It is a scum-tell for you when you weigh in the fact that you've only been squabbling over this fluff rather than finishing your reading and focusing on some scum hunting. You're back and forth and semantic argument is to appear active. Without being active.

[Benmage]

It's an arbitrary and undefined decision of where the level of towniness you decide they are worthy of exists.

Arbitrary, no. Subjective, yes. Effective. Indeed.

[Thor665]

Thor

Where are you on your 9-32 pg read through?

Page 9. I haven't done any reading since page 8.

I'll accept it as a scumtell on me - but only if you admit it's a scumtell on MoI first. Justify how it only works one way.

It is a scum-tell for you when you weigh in the fact that you've only been squabbling over this fluff rather than finishing your reading and focusing on some scum hunting. You're back and forth and semantic argument is to appear active. Without being active.

Eh...if I wasn't giving opinions on players at all I'd agree with that. However note that the heart of the semantics debate came from MoI because I started calling players town. Even you have accused me of chainsawing. If you guys are getting these reads off me clearly I'm not being shy with the opinions I do have. I'll admit I don't have opinions on everyone, nor that I have been a shining beacon of catching up, but I've hardly been attempting to be a wallflower and that's what that tell is based around - derpy doo to you too, Benmage.

[hasdgfas]

Cow

What do you think of the segment in my post 1016 where I differentiate what a town-VI looks like and what a scum looks like.

*holds up two fingers close together*
*points at everyone*
*shrugs*

[Locke Lamora]

I am willing to accept that because of the flavour that LL is cleared (my own knowledge of flavour is minimal, so I really am trusting others here)

Is it hard to use Google?

DGB's attitude towards me strikes me as lazy and nonsensical. I don't understand why it took xvart pointing out that Zoraster's claim made me likely town for her to decide she needs to 'downgrade her suspicion'. After Zoraster's claim, DGB should either have:
a) already decided that I'm less likely to be scum and lessened her scumread on me before xvart asked the question
or
b) stuck to her guns and argued that Zoraster being third-party has no bearing on my alignment and she is maintaining the same level of suspicion.

I would therefore like an explanation as to why xvart's question prompted her to respond in that way.

I will have lots of time tomorrow to get updated on everything and reread in light of the flips.

[Zdenek]

I am still working on getting completely caught up with the game.

After some rereading:

Dana:

I see very little scum hunting in Danakillsu's posts. Early in the day, he was guilty of posting pro-town fluff:

raise: DGB For pointing out how stupid it is to self-raise. We all get that you want to tell us you're town and you trust yourself. It doesn't even need to be stated. Now start trying to play the actual game.

Wrong. You are not keeping anything from happening by raising yourself. If we wanted to raise somebody else, we could do so whether you were raising yourself, someone else, or no one. Your job in this game is to convince other people that certain players are town or scum, and a raise of yourself because "you trust yourself and nobody else" doesn't help anyone. Let me put it this way: Do you lynch vote exclusively to see the person you vote for lynched?

I also don't think that he was being honest about his awareness of the statistics of self-raising from the last game. I also feel that he wasted a lot of time talking about self-raising and hascow's post restrictions rather than scum hunting. Additionally, there his jumping at the chance to vote for xvart based on GreyICE's incorrect reading of his posts.

Magua

Because I am leery of people who say "Policy lynching a VI D1 is the smart move" when there's more than one VI.

Why does the presence of more than VI make a difference?

$10 says Hasdgfas is faking his post restriction. It's cute, but it's also nonsensical from a setup POV. Undecided on scumminess; not enough information yet. Nulltell.

LL called him out this already, but I'd like to draw attention to it again. He thinks that someone is faking a post-restriction but calls it a null-tell, which I think is nonsensical.

Nexus:

In his first post, he talks about hascow's post restriction, self-voting to raise, not supporting policy lynches.

Nexus GreyICE vote in 257 was fairly weak. All he says is that GreyICE is grating on him and that his argument with DGB was tedious.

There's this careful defence of diddin:

Opinion on diddin: I agreed with his point on GreyICE in his first post. Not with his townread on DGB though. Disagree with his opinion on Benmage. Vote on Magua is a bit weak, really. Generally, Diddin hasn't really been posting much outside of talking about the VI/vigging debate, and answering some questions. I'm not convinced he should be the first lynch, anyhow.

Ghostlin:

why didn't you have a problem with Magua's 962?