Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[Saint]

With two townie deaths, and myself being a townie, perhaps it is best to massclaim at this point, as our power roles will begin to be sniped otherwise. I am completely for this.

In terms of who we should lynch, I believe we should follow InflatablePie's logic of either me or EMPKING today.
Therefore,

vote: EMPKING

He also gave a FoS of zdenek we should look into with his last post.

[Saint]

Like, if you're a cop with confirmed innos/guilties, or a watcher/tracker with a visit, it might be best to out them now
we need something to work with

[Swiftstrike]

I don't believe we should be mass claiming at this point after all day ones are more likely wrong lynches and we lost one player at night which should basically be expected so I don't see the dire need to mass claim

Saint would you explain why you see the need for us to mass claim?

[Setael]

I need to reread, but I'm pretty sure I'll be voting nameless. His play at the end of d1 looked very much like he knew mb was town.

I would also like to high five the ghost of Pie for drawing the NK as a VT. (I guess I should also thank the scum for choosing him since I was having a hard time reading him, but was definitely leaning scum.

[Nameless]

So as I was saying, VOTE: Saint and let's maybe not let the scum derail us this time.

More convincing post tomorrow when I'm not sleepy. Just for now: Saint is fishing for power roles to NK plus his sudden agreement with InflatablePie is kinda suss (but WIFOMy, yeah) or at least lazy. The statement we "need something to work with" is false and an attempt to handwave away his bad play D1 (wall of unacknowledged accusations etc). And Setael's attack on me for 'knowing' mb53 was town is still BS, the scum maneuvering was pretty obvious and I explained how I reached my assumption.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

VOTE: Saint

You really thing you have to mention that people who have a confirmed guilty should say so? That seems like a pretty obvious thing to do to me.

[Empking]

Though I despise Saint's last post I'm still leaning town. Nameless at the end of D1 pips King for the scummiest player.

Vote: Nameless

[DarthYoshi]

Swiftstrike:

I don't believe we should be mass claiming at this point after all day ones are more likely wrong lynches and we lost one player at night which should basically be expected so I don't see the dire need to mass claim

Saint would you explain why you see the need for us to mass claim?

^ This.

Saint is pretty blatantly rolefishing--a massclaim isn't going to help protect PRs in the slightest, and besides, as Set pointed out, a VT drew the NK, which tells me that the scum faction either hasn't picked up on any PR reads, or that their PR reads are incorrect. So I don't see the urgency either, and am finding said urgency fairly manufactured, honestly.

My top two suspects remain Implosion and Saint. I didn't much like Imp's vote of Mb53, it had wagonhopping written all over it, and when pressed by Mb, Implosion basically concedes sheeping his vote because:

Implosion

Like ISOs 34-36, they're all really vapid. That trend continues through his recent posting. There's just really little new information, a lot of restating what he's already said. That's basically it.

Gonna go ahead and say it--pot, meet kettle. (and as an obligatory pre-empt to the "Mb flipped town, doesn't that mean Imp will flip town too?" argument, Mb then put his vote on Implosion, who had little chance of being seen as an 'easy lynch,' so while their behavior was similar, their voting patterns weren't, and right now, that is what I am really finding demonstrably scummy about Implosion.)

Vote: Implosion.

But I would be quite content with a Saint lynch as well. They're practically neck-and-neck right now.

[ICEninja]

Yeah, things haven't changed my mind much. We still really need to be lynching implosion. I'll take a good hard look at Nameless's end of day 1 play, however. If that comes up fishy, then I might be inclined to suspect him.

I'm still a bit worried about Empking, but if he's scum then he is guaranteed going to die before the game is over so he isn't a huge priority for me right now.

Saint still looks like a fair lynch too, but I'm still favoring implosion. If implosion flips scum, I'm probably going to barrel down on Saint until he's dead, due to their day 1 interactions leading a connection that runs even deeper than Saint's scummy play.

If implosion is town, however, I'm not sure where I'll go from there.

[neko2086]

I'm finding myself partial to a Saint lynch once again. His first post today just seems all too convenient in that now that Pie is gone, he wants to base today's suspects on those of Pie's that are not Saint. Besides, why Pie's list? Why not mb's? Other than Saint, he listed implosion and swiftstrike. Why shouldn't we be looking into them? I don't have the time for it now, but I'd like to look at possible connections here.

I need to reread implosion and nameless

Swiftstrike- at the end of the day yesterday you said you would do another read of the game. Surely you've had the time now to do some digging and formulate some opinions, yet you enter D2 with a general statement against massclaim and a soft question to Saint. So who do you think is scummy?

[Zdenek]

Swift replacing in and immediately saying that he doesn't like that Empking was insinuating that he his is scum buddy was anti-town, and it bothers me.

Setael also pointed this out.

Nameless, please explain what your 526 has to do with your 509, where you said

This'll be my last post before the (current) deadline. I'm leaving my vote on Empking,

and the fact that I called that parking your vote on a claimed Mason.

6 hours != lurking, obv.

You missed the point. One could easily say that saying " certain players are lurking rather than helping the town" is a scummy way to rephrase 'have IRL stuff to do'.

I'm still a bit worried about Empking, but if he's scum then he is guaranteed going to die before the game is over so he isn't a huge priority for me right now.

Please explain this.

Vote Nameless

[ICEninja]

Besides, why Pie's list? Why not mb's? Other than Saint, he listed implosion and swiftstrike. Why shouldn't we be looking into them? I don't have the time for it now, but I'd like to look at possible connections here.

We shouldn't be looking in to implosion because Saint and implosion are scum buddies, remember? Saint was actually on the implosion wagon, pushing quite hard, but fell off that wagon once town was distracted and never looked back. Coincidence? I think not.

Please explain this.

Unless Empking gets cleared as town (by cop or mason buddy or whatever) then we're going to lynch him before lylo, plain and simple. Should he end up cleared, then he'll be a very valuable asset to town (masons are some of the strongest PRs late game, save maybe a jail keeper) and will have to be NKed anyway. If not then he's scum and we're going to lynch him. We have time.

[Nameless]

Empking: Reasons?

Zdenek: FINE. PATRONISING VERBOSITY TIME, THEN. There is a fundamental difference between not being able to - or even just not feeling like - playing for 6 hours and the same for 48. Practically speaking, people have work and sleep and whatever that prevents them from playing at certain times of the day. This is reasonable. However it is also reasonable that, having signed up and agreed to regularly participate in the game, a player can find SOME time to post at SOME point during most given days. Not posting for 6 hours means you probably

couldn't

. Regularly not posting for 48 or only making short, non-contributing posts usually means you've

chosen

to, at which point it's fair to question ingame motives. This is why attacking me for 509 is not valid, but attacking other players for lurking might be.

And #526 was where I pointed this and a bit more out to Setael, who had already made the exact same accusation.

[ICEninja]

Alright I reread nameless. He's pretty town. And he's probably right about Saint (who I believe is a likely scum buddy with implosion). I'm definitely not going to be voting Nameless today unless there is some significant information I missed. He was dead right about the mb wagon that sprung up. Sure mb wasn't the most town player, but he wasn't implosion.

Both Saint and implosion were on the mb wagon. He was the easiest non Saint/implosion person for scum to wagon, so this further supports my theory.

[Nameless]

Saint remains a good lynch for these reasons:

* Upon replacing in, Saint very quickly and very obviously buddied up to several of the more townie players, then wondered out loud why they would vote him when he considers them town. Yet he later attacked mb53 for buddying.
* Saint's catch-up included significant hostility towards players who voted based on lurking - a heavyhanded attempt to dissuade players from bringing up his replacee.
* During his catch-up, Saint contradicted himself over mongoose's meta while shifting his predesecor's vote off mongoose.
* Saint accused Neko of being an SK with very little reasoning, then claimed to change his mind later without answering any questions from multiple players regarding the accusation.
* Saint's accusations in general have been very stretched, including accusing Neko of a scumslip for weak semantics and attacking mb53 for asking another player to explain themselves.
* Saint's only posts close to a defense are vague accusations that other players are pushing the easiest wagon or ignoring the meat of the argument, without any clarification.
* Saint ongoingly refuses to acknowledge virtually every accusation and question directed at him.
* Saint several times during the end of D1 promised another catch-up and serious scumhunting attempt, but never followed through.
* Saint claimed to be playing by staying out of the spotlight until needing to defend himself, but didn't defend himself when wagoned and even cried 'go ahead and lynch me' rather than do so. When called on this, he handwaved that he was shifting his playstyle and acted as if being suicidal was good townie play.
* Saint began D2 by fishing for power roles, and pretending that all of D1 was nothing to work with.

[Setael]

@ice: if we lynch saint and he comes up town, would your opinion on nameless change at all?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
and the fact that I called that parking your vote on a claimed Mason.
...

He parked his vote on the only guy close enough to a lynch at the time for it to go through before the deadline hit. Preventing a no lynch isn't scummy.

[Nameless]

KTS, why do you keep defending me?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

KTS, why do you keep defending me?

Because I defended you before for that silly argument and he ignored it. Plus I think you is town-like.

[Setael]

Knowing mb was about to flip town, scum were likely motivated to stay off of mb's wagon, actually. They knew we weren't going to allow a no lynch. Unless Saint is scum, in which case his buddies probably helped push the mb wagon to get it off of Saint. On Feb. 21 there were 6 people voting empking and he was at L-1.

I started the mb wagon and neko was the first to follow me onto it. Next is Saint. Then everybody starts voting saint - KingTwelveSixteen, mb53, InflatablePie, nameless, Darth Yoshi (2 of these I now know are town). So at this point it was Saint with 5 votes and mb with 3. Then empking and implosion join the mb wagon, followed by swiftstrike and then pie hammers. Of these, if Saint is town I think maybe one of neko, saint, implosion and swiftstrike could be scum, but I'll bet the rest of the scum stayed off wagon. (These are Ice, KTS, nameless, Darth, Zdenek)

If Saint is scum, there were probably more scum on the mb wagon, as it moved from saint to mb. mb and Pie moved to the saint wagon instead of mb as well as nameless and darth. Saint's wagon could very easily have gained the momentum to be the D1 lynch so I don't think it likely that any of these votes were bussing when it was so easy to vote mb instead. If Saint is scum, nameless and darth are probably town. Everyone who moved to the mb wagon when Saint's had 5 on it would look a lot worse - empking, implosion, and swiftstrike. Again, though, if this is the case I think scum could've just sat back and watched the townies mislynch mb. (I was one of those townies so it feels this way to me.)

If Saint is town, I think we're looking at a scum group of Ice, neko and nameless (with maybe Darth or KTS if there are 4). If Saint is scum, implosion and swiftstrike are much more likely to be scum. I believe empking's claim more and more so he's kind of off my radar for now.

Looking back, my reasons for not wanting to join the Saint wagon are not that strong, I know 2 townies at least believed he was scum and there'd be a lot of info from his lynch. There's a good chance scum just watched as the town mislynched mb without need of their help, but if Saint is scum, then it's more likely that scum were involved in the wagon switch.

vote: Saint

[ICEninja]

Alright, I like the reasons for voting Saint. I'm on board.

Unvote, vote Saint

.

That being said, I disagree that scum wanted to be off the wagon. If Saint is scum, then scum was guaranteed voting for mb to make sure Saint doesn't get killed to prevent a no-lynch.

To be honest I'm not perfectly sure how I'd feel about Nameless based on a town Saint flip. I'm not positive where I'd direct myself from that point on, as I'd probably have to do some serious reading at that point. I'd look at players who I don't have clear reads on, like Zdenek and such. I'd probably also think about Emp again, as without any strong leads, we're eventually going to have to talk about him. If we're confused day 3, he might be a good lynch assuming no one clears him.

I don't want to think too much about what would happen down the road, though. I feel like I've seen a strong connection between Saint and implosion that indicates scum buddies, but other than that, day 3 will bring what day 3 brings. We should be talking about who is scummy

now

.

[Swiftstrike]

post 610

Swift replacing in and immediately saying that he doesn't like that

Empking was insinuating that he his is scum buddy

was anti-town, and it bothers me.
--Cut--

No I said I didn't like him insinuating I was his mason partner (as he had claimed Mason), so scum slip much there.

VOTE ZDENEK
FOS EMPKING

[Nexus]

Votecount the Seventeenth:

Saint (4): nameless, KingTwelveSixteen, Setael, ICEninja
nameless (2): Empking, Zdenek
Empking (1): Saint
implosion (1): Darth Yoshi
Zdenek (1): Swiftstrike

Not voting: neko2086, implosion

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Saint is at L-2. The deadline is at 9am (GMT) on the 21st March 2011.

As ever, if there are any problems, let me know.

[DarthYoshi]

Neko:

Why not mb's? Other than Saint, he listed implosion and swiftstrike. Why shouldn't we be looking into them?

We should. I’m rather dismayed at how much active lurking the town is tolerating from these two (including from Swift’s predecessor). And, is there a reason why you didn't vote Saint? When you posted, there wasn't a risk of putting him at L-1.

@Setael: While I agree that lynching Saint could provide us with a lot of information—a Saint town flip would force me to rethink a number of my reads—you’re putting a vote on player without actually saying why you think that player is scum. The closest you get is saying that your reasons for not wagoning Saint weren’t that strong. If you think Saint is scum, why? If you don’t think he is scum, then why are you voting for him?

@ICE: Has your read on Emp changed? IIRC, you were pretty against lynching him on D1, but #620 is the second time already on D2 that you’ve expressed (unprompted) suspicion of Emp.

@Zdenek and Swiftstrike: Could each of you explain the scumslips you saw in one another? Saying they are scumslips doesn't make them scumslips--I'm wondering if I'm missing something, and the extreme brevity isn't helping.

[Zdenek]

Nameless, I wasn't accusing you of lurking or active lurking.

No I said I didn't like him insinuating I was his mason partner (as he had claimed Mason), so scum slip much there.

It's not a scum-slip. It's just that we think of players being scum-buddies more often than about them being masons, and I used the wrong word. I have no idea why I did it.

@Zdenek and Swiftstrike: Could each of you explain the scumslips you saw in one another? Saying they are scumslips doesn't make them scumslips--I'm wondering if I'm missing something, and the extreme brevity isn't helping.

I don't think that Swift made a scum-slip. I think outing himself as not being a mason with Empking was anti-town because it narrowed down the field of candidates for that role.