Mini 1130 - A Fishbowl Invasion by Ninja Monkeys! - Over

[Sundy]

I saw that. IT DOESN'T WORK. If you're suspicious of 3 players, vote one of them.
"This player"
I am offended.
You've never seen me play scum anyways.

Yeah but just because I'm suspicious of one player doesn't mean I can't be suspicious of another. I've also laid out my interpretations of Winger's play, which justify my vote on him (though I get why people are mad that I didn't go into detail with my vote post). However, after looking back over the game, I'm starting to feel more uncomfortable about DH. Anyway, we'll see how much common sense I lack once we know Crazy's alignment.

@Winger: I'm sorry, it still seems to me that you were both the first to question Crazy's "Lol" statement, and the first to offer an interpretation of what it might mean. I don't understand the distinction between this suspicion, and the "secondary" suspicion you say DH is pointing out. What suspicion did DH bring up before you did?

[Oso]

Fine, you're paranoid.

And no, it's not a way to tie myself to two players... it's an honest question that if double voting in RVS is scummy, then logic would follow that I would have a reason to unvote one person and vote for the other.

Ok, at the risk of starting an MD discussion. (And everyone is welcome to take this with a grain of salt since I am one of the players involved)

No.

Or at least no reason that really has anything to do with crazy or myself.

Votes at time of your switch to me:

• Parama - Oso(me), Riceballtail
  
• Oso(me) - Parama, Bub
  
• Sundy - crazy
  
• Winger - Twistedspoon
  
• AGar - Sundy
  
• crazy - winger, DH

Parama, Me, and crazy tied at 2 apiece. Your switch to me makes it the biggest wagon (big being relative, it was only 3. But it's a start). You switch back to crazy when AGar votes you here. That is a serious push by AGar, against you and has been said before, your reasons just don't bear up.

Your vote on crazy, myself and then back to crazy is fairly alignment null as far as crazy and I are concerned. Your vote made me the biggest wagon, which isn't all that damning as that made it a wagon of only 3, but you switched it back to a player that had home some semi-serious doubts thrown at them (which wasn't true in my case) the minute you came under pressure.

You are deliberately looking for easy to hide on wagons and/or already under pressure targets, from my POV. Your first vote was truly RVS, the switch to me, maybe can be explained by the reasons you gave (random voting as many times as needed for someone to do something scummy) if you are a forgiving person. The switch back to crazy after you came under some pressure: No.

He was the only other person in the thread that had any amount of serious(non-RVS) pressure on him at the time AGar put some pressure on you.

[Oso]

Shit forgot the tl;dr

crazy or I might be scum, but no one is going to be able tell that from your votes if you flip scum.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I don't really think winger is scummy. Looking back, what he said in response to crazy's 'lol' was perfectly reasonable. It did seem that pianist had a problem with DH's vote, and still he has not really explained it well.

Looking back, I don't really like Cecily's unvote. It seems like a pointless gesture. For the moment I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's obviously not one of the more active players here. But still, I've got my eye on him.

As for sundy, I think his reasoning is ill-founded. I'm not really seeing what it is about DH that makes sundy think he's scum. To the contrary, I actually find DH to be pretty townish.

Preview edit: Oso is stretching in the preceeding two posts, but I really don't like this:

Your vote on crazy, myself and then back to crazy is fairly alignment null as far as

crazy and I

are concerned.

Possible scum-slip, much?

[Oso]

Your vote on crazy, myself and then back to crazy is fairly alignment null as far as

crazy and I

are concerned.

Possible scum-slip, much?

Sure, why not......

umm, where's the vote. I looked. It should be there.

[[winger]]

You are deliberately looking for easy to hide on wagons and/or already under pressure targets,

It's a bit too early for such strong language! /sarcasm

[DemonHybrid]

I express negative vibes about 3 players, and next thing you know all of them freak out to various degrees. Why so touchy, hmm? Granted I often draw a wagon on myself the first day, and maybe my play-style is at fault, but in my view people need to chill out (if they're town), and keep on being crazy to demonstrate your evil to everyone (if they're scum).

Problem with Sundy: Rattling off suspicions of 3 players, then voting for a competing wagon, tying it with the leading wagon.

Problem with [winger]: See my previous postings. Has done nothing to ease this belief.

Problem with TwistedSpoon: Newbie card is not a valid excuse. If you play the newbie card for every player who makes one newbie screw up, everyone is going to take that and run with it if their first game they draw scum. Seriously, there should be a minimum 1 NG requirement on-site.[/mdrant]

AGar - :goodposting:, though I don't agree with your point on TwistedSpoon. Newbie card playing has been null to me in the past.

And from what I've experienced in the past, there is a TON of scum motivation to doing exactly what you're doing at this stage in the game: expressing suspicion on multiple players but voting a popular wagon. I'm suspicious that you seem to have absolutely no realization of how scummy that is.

[DemonHybrid]

"And from what I've experienced in the past, there is a TON of scum motivation to doing exactly what you're doing at this stage in the game: expressing suspicion on multiple players but voting a popular wagon. I'm suspicious that you seem to have absolutely no realization of how scummy that is."

Was meant to be towards Sundy, apologies.

[crazypianist1116]

Unvote

Sure I was originally suspicious of 102, but Sunday has since provided a really good case against [winger].
And as for this interpretation of "Lol" thing:
1. It was me laughing. You're wrong if you think it had subtler meanings. If you don't believe me, then I can't convince you.
2. [winger] don't try and say your question didn't imply you interpreted somehow other than a laugh. A laugh would mean I had no problem. Further your vote said I was contradicting myself which means you thought I had problems with DH.

Also, don't try and lessen the blow by saying something was an honest question. If you're not going to believe me when I said my lol was an "honest" lol, then why should we believe you when you say your question was honest.

Plenty of other points have already been brought up as well.

Vote:[winger]

If you take every word spoken at face value, you'd spend an entire game lynching town. Just sayin'.

This is why you lynch the people that try to make things seem scummier than they really are.

[[winger]]

I never said I DIDN'T interpret it as anything other than a laugh, and point 1 is he-said-she-said. So your vote on me is completely based on NOTHING. It's based on 1) heresay, 2) a complete and utterlie, and 3) "plenty of other points".

This is the worst vote in the game so far. pianist waited for forever to lay down a vote on me until there was enough suspicion to not make her look even MORE scumalicious than she already was.

[crazypianist1116]

Again I'm a guy. If you were paying attention, you would have read that.

Just calling things wrong doesn't mean that they automatically become wrong.

If you interpreted it as a laugh the first time around then why bother questioning? You wouldn't have, because you would have interpreted it as me having no problem with DH's vote. But you interpreted it differently, which is why you questioned me and which is why that makes you the first person to give context to my lol.

As for the whole other people thing, you may have ignored some things directed at you in earlier pages but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Also, you haven't given concrete evidence as to why lol should be taken to mean something different than it is. If there was any reason for it to be seen as hostility or unacceptability then maybe I'd believe you, but lol is generally used to indicate subtle amusement or to laugh at someone. You've just been saying "She said lol, she disagrees."

And as for me waiting to vote? People are in the middle of trying to get a Sundy wagon rolling. My vote is going to jump out since it's not what everyone else is doing. That doesn't mask my vote in anyway but instead makes it more prominent. How exactly would that be trying to hide my vote?

[Enigma]

If you feel that you are going to struggle to commit to the game, please inform me and I'll try find a replacement (I have a few standing by already). Don't let yourselves down, or your teammates.
I won't hate you for it ... I promise!

---

Votecount 1.3

Life was pretty boring in this the community right now. Everyone thought it would be a good idea to challenge each other to a staring contest. It was an impressive feat to witness, both sides unrelenting! It seemed like neither would succumb.

But since goldfish don't have eyelids, it was like dividing by zero... and the implosion of the universe would soon follow...

crazypianist1116 (3) -[winger], Parama, Bud Bidderskins
[winger] (3) - Oso, Sundy, crazypianist1116
Sundy (3) - TwistedSpoon, DemonHybrid, AGar

AGar (1) - Akira
Cecily (1) - Riceballtail

Not Voting (2) - sordros, Cecily

With 13 Alive it takes 7 to lynch, 6 to no lynch.
The deadline is 3:30pm 20th March GMT+10.30.

[[winger]]

I really can't understand what crazypianist is on about. He says that I shouldn't pretend I didn't interpret as a laugh (which, I never said or implied, otherwise I wouldn't have made the comment I did about it).

He goes on to say that I ignored what other people said about me, even though I responded to nearly every point made about me.

This really is starting to look more like "flailing", as someone else so eloquently described it.

[crazypianist1116]

Don't use so many double negatives. I'm not understanding you at all, but my post covered either side. If you interpreted it like a laugh, then why question? If you didn't then that means you interpreted it differently. If you're trying to keep it ambiguous as to how you interpreted it, that's scummy. Your posts imply you interpreted it as hostility though:

Oso, crazypianist contradicted himself (in my opinion) when he said he did not have a problem with the vote on him. That directly contradicts the tone set by the (what I'd consider) hostile/sarcastic "Lol" response he gave previously.

As for other people, see Agar's posts. There are other things there as well that I don't feel like looking up atm.

[crazypianist1116]

Further, if you have a problem with my post, ask me, don't ask other people to come to the rescue. Your change from using "you" to "he" makes it look like you're trying to appeal to the audience rather than confronting me directly.

[AGar]

134, 137.

[Winger] wagon is a go.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: [winger]

Sundy still really caught my attention, and I'm not letting that one go, but [Winger] is just digging himself deeper and deeper, flailing about.

[Riceballtail]

I'm going to retract my vote on CP for now because that's what I had intended to do originally.

I've posted three times in this game not including now. My first was a confirmation. My second was an RVS. My third was a retraction of that RVS because I really didn't have any case against him other than his name.

Once again, I'm very busy. I'll contribute more when I have the time. I hope this settles things for people.

Vote stays till you're useful, or it prevents a NL.

[Akira]

@AGar: When you voted for winger, he had only posted twice with two random votes. I would have understood your vote if that was your reason (the two RVs), but you pulled out this whole thing about him trying to setup a wagon with only those two posts of his as your basis. Why?

Post #39 - Winger calls Crazypianist's "lol" post. CP's 3rd post.
Post #45 - I vote Winger.

Okay I completely missed your point. UNVOTE:

Sundy did catch my eye, especially for the absurdity of his Bub suspicion, but his next post just shines with town vibes. I don't think his opinion on the crazy wagon could ever come from scum.

crazy started out peculiarly (the whole bluff thing mostly) but as I've said there's nothing more to it and he's bringing up some good points right now:

Further, if you have a problem with my post, ask me, don't ask other people to come to the rescue. Your change from using "you" to "he" makes it look like you're trying to appeal to the audience rather than confronting me directly.

Exactly my thoughts. winger's last couple of posts really do it for me. After ISOing him this is my summary:
1) Accused crazy of lying from a simple Lol. Totally wrong.
2) Insists that crazy had something wrong with the vote throughout many posts. If crazy actually had a problem, he would have posted differently.
3) In ISO 10, as Sundy pointed out, his chronology is messed up pretty conveniently, if you get what I mean and...

I only asked crazypianist a question to try and dig a little deeper.

4) The justification he brings up after that is completely off. This isn't why you're being suspected, winger, it's because of when you turned it into a lie and voted for it. Only now I get what AGar was saying when he voted for you in the first place. Your question seemed harmless, but once the wagon started you didn't hesitate to turn it into something really grave all of a sudden.
5) Post 134. You call crazy's point 2 a complete and utter lie when that's the main reason 3 people are voting for you.
6) 137. This change from you to he is pretty blatant flailing.
VOTE: winger

@RBT: You two aren't the only players here. Stop this shit and start playing.

[Riceballtail]

@RBT: You two aren't the only players here. Stop this shit and start playing.

Yeah, that's what they told me last game when she flipped scum too.

Buddy much?

[Akira]

Buddy much?

Who do you think I'm buddying up with?

[Twistedspoon]

this looks like L-2 on winger.
I'm not quite prepared to leave him to be hammered just yet, even though It would be so easy to hop off of the CP or Sundy wagon now that their passengers are jumping onto the winger wagon. However, If he flips scum, feel free to say 'I told you so'
He just seems to newb in playstyle to me. I could be wrong and he could have just made scumslips, but that's what it looks like to me.

Also, I don't like CP's posts on this page. At the very least he seems to be tunneling on winger. At the worst, he's exploting a wagon to blend in and get Winger lynched as a scapegoat for himself.

Vote:CP

CP defending himself to this extent looks like flailing to me, and he seems to be exploiting a wagon now that one on winger's rolling full steam ahead. He's overtaken Sundy in scuminess now, and I have complete confidence in my vote on him.

[Twistedspoon]

oh, I forgot. My opening sentence seems redundant because I forgot to mention that at least one mafioso will probably be on the [winger] wagon at this stage. Just my speculation.

[[winger]]

I feel like I should go ahead and claim my role, but I'm not sure what the proper protocol is for claiming on this site.

[Twistedspoon]

NO

DON'T CLAIM

Never claim unless you're about to be hammered and cannot prevent your own lynch otherwise.
Claiming a PR makes you a prime target for scum, although it might be too late now anyway now that you've hinted at a PR.

[Cecily]

Alright, here we go. I'll be going over pretty much everyone targeted, just to catch up. And I'm writing this as I'm reading so if I switch my ideas halfway through and forget to quote something, I'm sorry.

I'll start with crazypianist because thats who you guys were calling me on before. Post 38-41, Crazy, winger, crazy, DH. Looking back, Crazy's "lol" seems perfectly harmless. It seems that DH took it to the next level by calling out a bandwagon on him. It seems like sarcasm and then a miscommunication of sarcasm that started the whole attack on crazy in the first place and now I just don't see it from that. It seems like winger joined onto the crazy train [lol] and tried to push it forward by intentionally making crazy seem suspicious by putting emotions behind his simple comment.

it seemed very much like crazypianist

did

have a problem with that vote

And then theres the whole "bluff" thing. Seems more like a lack of time to think of a clever response and instead saying something stupid, rather than being blatantly scummy.

Parama then came in and went right along with winger, consciously or not, in putting words into crazy's mouth.
Parama then starts sticking up for winger by taking his scumminess and saying "nahh, what scumminess?"

Plus, [winger] isn't flailing scum like crazy is, AND he's voting the flailing scum. If he's scum, he's helping us anyways

That seems more like and alignment than anything else thus far in the game (as of post 57)
After that comes winger. Post #68. I'm not certain at this point how much of his reasoning is suspicious versus how much is purely because he's a newbie, but since he claims to know the game, I can assume he knows at least most of what he's claiming and making himself seem like.
He seems easily threatened, and comes back not with truly good reasoning, but with sentences that make it seem like he is being attacked personally.

At what point in the game does it stop being "too early" to use the word "lie"? This is an arbitrary attack on me.

And then he switches back into the "I'm new here, help me learn" mode, so I'm confused.

I'm questioning a Parama/winger alignment right now, because of Parama's post #83. He seemed to have no problems with winger's play style before he admitted that he'd never played a game before, but once that information was known he got defensive, maybe because winger being a new player threatens Parama's chance of a good scum game? Just thinking here. And then he jumped on me for unvoting crazy. He and winger had a (small) wagon on crazy at that point and it still seemed like the rest of the players weren't terribly convinced, yet when I pulled my RVS vote he wanted to accuse me of teaming up with crazy? I'm confused with that logic, but it doesn't seem very towny.

And just to address it, Parama, you were putting words into crazy's mouth.

But you took it as a serious vote because you're paranoid.

No evidence, no valid point.

I feel like Bub hasn't really been reading crazy's side of the argument because he continued to miss the sarcasm that was blatantly there.

I've currently read up to page 4. So far my idea is that theres a scum hiding in the winger, parama, DH crazy wagon, because crazy just seems to be sarcastic.

And then theres Sundy. His reason's against people were verging on idiotic and then he jumps onto a popular train. I don't think theres more that needs saying on that case. It's a stupid play style, but he does seem to redeem himself in post 108 and after that his ideas become much more easy to relate to.
Sundy makes good points, such as :

Sins of the newbie are sins of the newbie. However Winger's sins (casting aspersions on another player by inventing motives) seem more egregious than Pianist's (responding to his name listed in RVS).

and then winger pulls the typical scum move and gets defensive about it not by defending himself but by stating that it absolutely cannot be. Wingers is a simple case of shouting something loud enough and strong enough that people will believe you.

My final reads on everyone
Parama - his play style is aggressive, but it was the same in the last game I played with him and we ended up lynching him D1 and he was town, so I don't really want to risk that again.
crazy - seems sarcastic, but otherwise not scummy. He's come back from being wagoned and defended himself with reason.
DH - seems less like a scum and more like he just doesn't pick up sarcasm very well. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one and call town.
Sundy - initially posted very poorly but has come back strong and now makes some valid points.
Twisted - seems to just be having a dandy old time.
Bub - I don't think he understands sarcasm either/he doesn't read threads very carefully..
AGar - I'm liking his rationing. doesn't seem to have said anything scummy yet.
Oso - I see nothing suspicious so far
Akira - I'll need more information
sordros - same lack of information
RBT - stop being ignorant and start playing the game that you're currently active in.
winger - easily threatened, comes back with remarks that make it seem like everyone is personally attacking him. He also likes to say things as if they are facts when they truly are not.

Winger is by far the scummiest character in this game.

vote: winger