Newbie 1072 - Game Over!

[Charlie]

Hello newer players and you 2 not so new players. I'll be your IC for this game. I think of it as a fancy tour guide, as one who asks you not to do blatant silly things (such as self-voting) and to explain certain things (such as these abbreviations: VI, WIFOM, AtE).

Good readings are:

1) The first post of the game: here you will find important details of the game, which our mod will update periodically
2) The second post of the game: Rules are rules.
3) MafiaWiki, located here.

Please don't hesitate to ask questions in-thread. If you're doubtful of asking it publicly, you may PM the mod.

The Semi-Experienced players (SEs) are players without an obligation to teach, but they know the basic stuff as much as ICs.

We get the game going by either a random voting stage (RVS) or a random questioning stage (RQS)

Preview-edit: Looks like gxw kicked off the RVS with that post above.

[Charlie]

Vote: Charlie
Unvote, Vote: Dazzy
Unvote, Vote: FarmeriXi
Unvote, Vote: Forseti
Unvote, Vote: Ghostlin
Unvote, Vote: gxw
Unvote, Vote: KingTwelveSixteen
Unvote, Vote: Mute
Unvote, Vote: Twistedspoon

Because lemons.

Waitaminute. I'm sure I've seen this sort of thing before. You'd best explain before I go looking for it.

[Charlie]

OK, looks like we have healthy activity thus far. My own experience tells me that this tends to simmer down as time goes by, but I'll worry about that later.

First up, I've got to let everyone know that my timezome is +8GMT. After about a year of playing here, I realize that the majority of players are around -5GMT-ish. So, my posts tend to be "delayed" as compared to other players. Thought to get that footnote out of the way.

I have been trying to figure out how to use the ISO feature and I can't seem to find it. Can you help?

KingTwelveSixteen and Ghostlin explained it correctly. To view posts in isolation (ISO) is done by selecting a name from the "Display posts by user:" dropdown selection at the bottom of the page and clicking "Go".

Additionaly, you may note the "Activity Overview" link at the bottom right of the page. This is a relatively new feature that is nifty for poking lurkish players.

I shall now address game stuff, below:

-----------

@Twistedspoon: Seems like it is not your first game here, do you mind telling how much experience of Mafia do you have?

What's so scummy about the rapid voting/unvoting in RVS? (Random Voting Stage).

Huh? I didn't say it was scummy. I said that I've seen it before and find it interesting.
Anyway. It is a strange thing to do, and I wanted gxw to explain why he did that (which he subsequently did)

@Dazzy: Random question for you; how did you feel when you got your Role PM?

Hmm well this is my first game on this site, and I've only skimmed through some other recent newbie/mini theme games so far, and I didn't see anything like this in those. I planned to do my first post like that as soon as I /in-ed the newbie queue, for the reason below.

To Twisted and Charlie:

I did the multiple votes thing in order to gauge reaction or lack thereof to it. Clearly I had some interesting results.

Hmm, interesting indeed. What do you say if I tell you that I think that you were told to do that in your Mafia Night-talk? (Night 0, or pre-game)

Wow, already declaring town and scum tells on the first page? Thats fast.

Well, for what its worth I've seen some players catching scum in Newbie games on the second page, long ago in my first game. I'd link to it if you want to see (Oh on that note, remember that you CANNOT link to ongoing games. It's against the rules and can get you modkilled).

My input on the GXW / Spoon debacle - pure silliness. I won't bother with commenting on it further than that as it is, as I said, pure silliness. Not going to put a vote down til I've solid/concrete reasons for doing so.

So you're being mute on the matter. Um hmm.

@FarmeriXi: Just a question out of curiosity: Do you normally post like that? I mean, multiple votes and unvotes within the same post?

[Charlie]

Point taken on the first part. I asked an atypical question and received a typical response.

I agree that your involvement in taking the first step out of RVS is great for the purpose of getting the game moving, but I'm the kind of player who'll much prefer a "wait and see" approach before forming an opinion. It's a playstyle that some aren't comfortable with, but it works pretty okay for me.

I'm pretty sure I've seen the slew of votes within the same post done before (as a joke). My very first thought was "hey, this person here must have played before!" So I prompted a statement. I have a few ideas where to look for it, but I really think it isn't worth the effort over such a small matter. What do you think?

[Charlie]

@Twistedspoon: Do you realize that you've made an error in your #33? Read my #29, the response below the quote of KingTwelveSixteen. Be more careful next time.

FoS'ing isn't a scumtell, but Double RVS voting is.

Mmm, I don't agree with this and you've said things which you cannot prove, like "you're almost certain". Anyway, the whole post strikes me a bit odd. Call it gut if you will, but I believe this is deserving of a vote.
VOTE: Twistedspoon

This is L-2. That's 2 more votes to lynch, so be careful when placing new votes on him. A premature lynch does not benefit anyone but Mafia.

I'll have to look again at the later #43. After reading that once I've mixed reads...

@Forseti: Good to see you arrive, why are you hesitant to place TS at L-2? Do you believe he's Mafia?

@Dazzy: So you have a case on TS, which I like. Your answer is satisfactory, so I have nothing else to say about it.

I have a few ideas where to look for it, but I really think it isn't worth the effort over such a small matter. What do you think?

I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you asking what I think about going to find where else it has happened? Or something else?

I'm seeking your agreement that looking for the source of where I've seen that weird style of voting is not worth the effort.

[Charlie]

Charlie: Not enough to take it to L-2 at that stage, no. Counter question to you. Would YOU have placed that vote if I had and taken it to L-1? Or were you trying to make a point?

I don't know. I guess I was just trying to make a point.

Charlie what was the purpose of that question? I can't see a town-motivation for asking how someone felt about their role.

A straightforward answer is that is one of many questions from a "standard" Random Questioning Stage (RQS) that I picked up and decided to use here. The responses has exceeded my expectations.

@Ghostlin: Good point on the claiming part. I'd like to add that it is bad play for Townies to lie about their role. Time and again, it has showed no proven benefit except in rare cases (and Newbie games are as standard as a game can get, so don't do it!)

Ghostlin's vote and reasons against me is noted, I have no comment on the matter at this time.

@ Charlie: Do you realise that your entire case (if you can call it that) against TS is contained in those ~3 lines above? Nowhere else have you expressed any suspicion of him in this thread. I find it extremely odd that an IC who says

...
I'm the kind of player who'll much prefer a "wait and see" approach before forming an opinion. It's a playstyle that some aren't comfortable with, but it works pretty okay for me.
...

Would jump to voting on a gut feeling almost two days after the post in question (where the quote in your above post was taken from). Does a disagreement on scumtell interpretation necessitate a vote from you? Also, you are somewhat misquoting TS, possibly in an attempt to add a smidgen of basis to your vote. He said that the town was "almost certain" that a player in another game he was playing was scum based on a multi-RVS.

Add to that what appears to be a pretty solid attempt at role-fishing with your question to me, and your repeated "no win" questions, and I'm getting a bit of a scummy read on you.

Oh. That's a surprise. Let me clarify my position: I do play by "wait and see", by that I mean I usually wait until there is significant discussion going on first, then I comment. People have gotten suspicious of this before and way too often so I decided to say it first. Voting and scumhunting, on the other hand, I do more often by gut. Of course there is logic working behind it too, but I find in LyLo situations, based on my own preference, gut is the way to go. I put my vote there on page 2 with confidence that I'll be able to take it off to prevent a premature lynch should TS be suddenly placed at L-1.

This is L-2. That's 2 more votes to lynch, so be careful when placing new votes on him. A premature lynch does not benefit anyone but Mafia.

What the heck is this? How can you promote a cautious approach to someone you just recklessly voted on?

Your last post as a whole seems to me like a scum bandwagoning and then trying to cover it with some IC pro-town advice. Can you give us a bit more substance on your vote please?

Well, why can't I? I'm in control of my vote, and L-2 isn't that a big deal at page 2.
If you think that my gameplay is melding with the IC advice, I'm willing to separate them with pretty borders to avoid confusion. Some call this "putting on the IC hat".
The essence of the vote was to take a stance, get discussion, but retractable if TS gets at L-1.

Charlie's seeming contradictions that have been brought up make him look scummy, gonna wait for his response to see if I'll switch to him. gxw doesn't seem that scummy after he explained everything, so
Unvote
until I find someone else to vote for (probably Charlie.)

Your FoS on me is duly noted.

-----------

Right, so I noticed a mixed response to my actions and it seems I've been put in the spotlight a bit. I'd like it be known that I'm a little busy IRL in the coming week so I'll definitely not be a rapid poster.

[Charlie]

Why did you ask someone how they felt about their role? This is as good as rolefishing, which you have just said is a bad thing.

As I said before, it was part of a RQS, which is used to generate discussion. The answers don't really matter, the reactions of other people to them do. Reactions are gold, and that is what I was trying to achieve. It has exceeded my expectations because the reactions I got were strong ones; logical ones, and were all suspicion of myself. This is a trifecta!

Alarm bells should be ringing here.
How do you know that the two scummers haven't yet voted and could hammer me before you retract your vote? How can you therefore have this confidence you claim you have, unless you know who the scummers are and who will therefore vote and hammer?

Stop right here, you're trying to generalize things: based on the above you are saying that two scummers will leisurely vote you, thus resulting in your lynch, and will get off with no suspicion on them the next Day? Seriously?
I'm sorry, but I cannot accept this. I'm calling

WIFOM

. Below, I'll put game theory related stuff inside mech tags, so as to separate my actual gameplay with important IC-related stuff (I realize that I should have done this from the start, where it would be neater and more consistent, and thus, hopefully not affect my game-play with game theory interference)

WIFOM is part and parcel in Mafia games. Knowing how to use it well can put any player, regardless of alignment, a good player.

Relevant: An example of a game using the RQS to kick off discussion. Newbie 999 - Game Over. It is on the first page.

RVS and RQS are the most widely accepted method to start in-game discussion

@KingTwelveSixteen: You'll find my answer to your question above ^

And I've noted you've made an error in thinking I was at L-1 at that time. This is why votecounts by the mod is the most reliable, and is the best used in vote count analysis (VCA). I'll put a method on how to do a VCA properly, as I feel it is important and highly useful aspect of gameplay. Note that there are other methods, and some players do unofficial vote counts to aid their case.

How to do a vote count analysis:

1) Read the mod in ISO, copy and paste the votecounts.
2) Label them properly. The code below will come out as:

votecount data

3) Add colour to include flips. Remember not to use colours forbidden by the mod.
4) Interpret.

Code: Select all

[quote="Vel-Rahn Koon votecount #xxx"]votecount data[/quote]

-----------
Now, ladies and gentlemen, I'll like you to pay attention to the quotes below:

Vote Count 1.1

Twistedspoon - 1 (gxw)
gxw - 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)
Mute - 1 (Ghostlin)
FarmeriXi - 1 (Mute)
Ghostlin - 1 (Dazzy)

Not Voting - 4 (

Charlie

, FarmeriXi, Forseti, Twistedspoon)

Vote Count 1.2

Twistedspoon - 2 (gxw, Dazzy)
gxw - 2 (KingTwelveSixteen, Twistedspoon)
Mute - 1 (Ghostlin)

Not Voting - 4 (

Charlie

, FarmeriXi, Forseti, Mute)

Vote Count 1.3

Twistedspoon - 3 (gxw, Dazzy,

Charlie

)
gxw - 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)

Charlie

- 2 (Mute, Ghostlin)

Not Voting - 3 (FarmeriXi, Forseti, Twistedspoon)

Vote Count 1.3

Twistedspoon - 3 (gxw, Dazzy,

Charlie

)

Charlie

- 4 (Mute, Ghostlin, Twistedspoon, KingTwelveSixteen)
KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (FarmeriXi)

Not Voting - 1 (Forseti)

I've taken the liberty to put myself in blue. I'll also be doing future votecounts with flipped Town members in green and Mafia in orange. Oh, and a minor note is that our mod mistakenly did two "Vote Count 1.3"s

My own interpretation of the above votecounts is that gxw and Dazzy are sitting happily on a vote since the beginning of the game (Note: Dazzy had a random vote at the start of the game, and only just recently unvoted), Twistedspoon and KingTwelveSixteen suddenly jumps on my wagon to put me at L-1. Interesting to note that Twistedspoon was the lead wagon and he does not hesitate to complete a counterwagon. FarmeriXi was the latest to vote (wasn't he the latest to post in-game as well?), whereas Forseti has not voted at all!

I actually have Town reads on both Mute and Ghostlin, but then I realize that they're both SEs and I might be fooled by their so-called "SE play". This complicates things and I'll have to re-evaluate them later.

-----------

@Mute: Some answers are already covered in the above. As for these:

This I don't know how to interpret correctly. My brain's giving me a few options.
1) I am actually going to be busy so please don't lynch me before I can defend myself.
2) I'm going to use the "I won't be here much" for an excuse to stall the wagon on me because town's caught me.
3) (an extension/alternative to two) I'm gonna now go hide in the corner and watch what you all do because I wanna see how my actions affect town.

I think you're over-thinking. I'm just saying that I'm not going to be active like 10 posts a day; more like 1 post a day or 1 post in 2 days.

I just noticed the bolded part. Why did you bring up LyLo here Charlie?

Why not, I don't see any inconsistency in that statement.

-----------

If I missed out important things, do point them out. I'll address them.
If someone states an intent to hammer, do have the courtesy to ask for a claim first. Until then, I'm not claiming (Relevant: This post from my last Newbie game)
I myself do not like wallposting (making big posts) but in this case I feel it is needed.

[Charlie]

Was I previewing till I got ninja'd with those two posts?

Doesn't matter, I'll wait till more people chime in on the discussion.

[Charlie]

^^ This post has so many assumption in it, it is not even funny. Also, are you deliberately trying to be anti-Town with this:

Gxw (or another townie), If you want to hammer Charlie then go for it. He's trying to confuse you with his fancy IC talk. If he flips scum (which seems incredibly likely), then you're our hero.

when I've just said this:

If someone states an intent to hammer, do have the courtesy to ask for a claim first.

?

[Charlie]

Posting from mobile. I see heavy activity and TS at L-1. His panicky reaction is more indicative of newbtown rather than scum. I'll look up some meta (metagaming, check wiki)

Gxm's post 100 is scummy
UNVOTE: TS
VOTE: Gxm

More later.

[Charlie]

Oh hi you're online.

[Charlie]

I've noticed something odd about FarmeriXi's posts, I'll be keeping an eye on him though I'm not yet sure what yet. Now I'll address things in reverse chronological order.

@Twistedspoon: I've noted that you played in 1 other newbie game: Newbie 1050
I've looked at it. Seems pretty okay, as far as Town Doc plays so you're not VI in my book. Question is, how come you're not as cool as a cucumber when facing a threat of (mis?)lynch on D1? Do you think your play there and here are equal?

@ Charlie: Can we please have the results of your supposedly successful reaction-fishing? Seems a little scummy keeping (possibly fabricated) information such as that from us.

Whoever hits any component of the trifecta gets Town-points in my book. Townie brownies for a full house/complete trifecta.

I would also like to see Charlie post again with the results of his reaction fishing questions, and get some more substance from gxw on his position to further contribute to my reads before fulfilling your request Ghost.

That post #100 reeks of scum because it is blatant role-fishing with a threat of hammering any of the two (supposedly) players @ LyLo. Think about it, who benefits most from getting claims out of players? The Mafia does. And its not to say that gxw has been uber active... I feel that compared to others, his content is fluff. Indicative of Mafia trying to lie low?

My read on Charlie, as it stands, is leaning town, and most of that has little to actually do with his own play as it is the way that people have reacted to him and tried to push the wagon on him over the line. As such, it's a read that's subject to change, but it would need a stronger case than currently has been put forth.

My read on you is null.

Charlie:

Were you aware that the question you asked might be taken as rolefishing? If so, why did you ask it? You've not given me a lot to say you're a victim of misunderstanding.

When I posted that question, I wasn't aware that it may have been taken as role-fishing. To me it was just another random question in RQS that will get discussion going. It did, and in a way that far exceeded my expectations (same answer as before). I just spew whatever I have on my mind and its up to you to judge weather or not that is scummy.

Well now I REALLY want to hammer TS, but I just realized that I already have a vote on him :/ That's pretty much all i have to say...

Why?
Note: *gxw's response is important, please nobody else answer for him*

[Charlie]

what's a trifecta though?

I'm just saying that I've been bombarded with 1) strong logic 2) strong attack 3) strong reaction.
Thus, a trifecta

Twistedspoon, can you briefly describe your current situation in this game i.e. how you think you're faring, a general self-appraisal?
I ask because I'd like to compare it with mine.

[Charlie]

My evaluation of you is a VT forced to claim at L-1 and you've decided to make the most of it. Think about it, you're now in a much stronger position than you were before. Now, I recommend going back to scumhunting.

Regarding my earlier read on FarmeriXi: I think I'll withhold telling the reason why I find him suspicious for the time being. I may have found something interesting, but I'll have to make sure of something first (I'll have to look up some research material on game theory -- don't wait up for me).

Awaiting further responses, especially from gxw.

[Charlie]

I think I'll read the stuff in the "Helpful Links" section.

*reads*

[Charlie]

Argh, Ghostlin... I'm having trouble forming a solid read on you. At some points you fit Town tells in my book and at others you fit the Mafia ones. Or maybe I'm getting prarnoid. What am I going to do with you?

Allright, how about you actually explain #174? Honestly, the picture I got was a kinda fragmented and I end up more confused than enlightened.

[Charlie]

Doh. I think you probably should have withheld that comment. Patience is a virtue. gxw needs to reply to that, not you.

[Charlie]

Grasshopper.

[Charlie]

Hello, new people. Do say stuff, we won't bite.

UNVOTE: tclawren

Don't tell me that both Mafia members replaced out... if that is the case then I'll be surprised.

[Charlie]

Oo, those posts by Ghostlin and Dazzy are really eye-openers. I mean, really, I've discovered a whole new POV and that's a good thing. That is why I like newbie games! (WIFOM this if you would). I shall address those points in quotes below.

Since Ghostlin put up a list, I think I'll follow suit. I remember in a past game I got heavy flak for doing that (I was Town, the fella criticizing me turned out to be Town as well) but I have good reasons to think it would help my case of organized scumhunting. I'm thinking of clouds/clusters.

Loud and active

Dazzy

- when he's around, he does goodposting. Hard to imagine him being Mafia.

Ghostlin

- looking over his attack on myself (of which I naturally paid more attention to than the other ones), he feels Town. Why? Its because one can does develop a gut feeling of which attacks are "Town" after playing a bit.

Twistedspoon

- after all that attention and his L-1 fiasco, he's quite solid Town IMHO. Ever get that feeling that sometimes, the most obvious things are obvious? As in, if he's too reckless to be scum; therefore he's probably Town. (WIFOM this too, but that's overrated...at least in this situation)

Lurker, lurking, middle ground

Meransiel

(replaced FarmeriXi) - I get the feeling that vote for No Lynch is a horrible Mafia attempt to look like Town trying to be "doing the most obvious right thing". That's not the correct thing anyway. Ever feel that he's trying too hard to appear pro-town?

tclawren

(replaced gxw) - I'm not letting that so-called slip made by gxw to go by without being addressed. I need tclawren to at least try to explain why did his player slot did what he did: Answer the question directed to gxw, why did he say this:-

Well now I REALLY want to hammer TS, but I just realized that I already have a vote on him :/ That's pretty much all i have to say...

Whoever's left

Forseti - I don't think I've interacted much with him. I said he was null before, that didn't change...
KingTwelveSixteen - He's a wildcard. I get the feeling that he's active just enough and when he need to be around. I'll have to remember to keep an eye on him on this one (no, this isn't a breadcrumb. Ask me more about breadcrumbs if you don't know what they are.)
Mute - Another player who's like a wildcard, only I believe he's more likely to be Town that KingTwelveSixteen. See Ghostlin's list.
Charlie - Obvscum.

@Dazzy: Ghostlin's right. Its too early to draw any connections between 2 players. I feel that it would be best to see a Mafia flip first. However, it still might be worth thinking about it... Oh, and that connections you've supposedly saw between me and TS? Its not true, aka flawed.

@ Charlie: Do you mind giving us your complete scum reads? I'd like some concrete results from your "successful gambit" in which you made yourself look like mafia "intentionally". How have those results affected your reads?

^^^I think the above should suffice.

This isn't your first rodeo and you know as well as I do replacements mean jack as far as alignment. You almost bring this up as a 'Look over here, please!' I had to replace out of two games (larges, apparently I'm not ready for the book keeping and the reading of 3-5+ pages a day much less the discussion topics) and it wasn't indicative of alignment. I felt it was unfair for the other players to have a subpar one in the game.

Of course, replacing out is actually a Towntell according to some senior Mafiascum players. I've read that somewhere in Mafia Discussion, no need to elaborate on that because opinions differ. The real problem I have with this post is that I'm in agreement with you, yet you say what I just did indicates a totally opposite line of thought. How is this confusion possible?

I think the answer lies in me trying to post succinctly added with you thinking too much over a simple matter. In other words, you've spotted some small detail and you've made a mountain out of a molehill.

[Charlie]

@ Ghostlin: Understood. Perhaps it would help to know that when I made that comment about those two replacing out, I thought of an early game I played in as SE Cop where both the IC and other SE were Mafia Goons. The chances of this configuration of all experienced players not being VT is slim; that's what I'm thinking about in this game too: the chances of both players who replaced out are Mafia is slim, but its possible. That's it.

@Meransiel: What is this, I don't even

[Charlie]

I'm thinking 1 Mafioso on the lynching wagon and 1 off.

[Charlie]

I'm calling Mute & Meransiel. (M&M )
Meransiel gets the vote for blatantly calling out the setup is 2 goons.
VOTE: Meransiel

KingTwelveSixteen gets a facepalm for assuming that he'll be around on D2 to comment.

[Charlie]

^Hurr. I rolled my eyes like

-----------

Why Mute, eh? Process of elimination:

Twistedspoon

- 5 (

Forseti

, Mute,

Dazzy

, tclawren,

Ghostlin

)
Meransiel - 2 (KingTwelveSixteen,

Twistedspoon

)

Not Voting - 2 (

Charlie

, Meransiel)

Dark green = flipped Town
Light green = my Town reads
Blue = myself

tclawren, who replaced gxw, gave a reply to my question which I found as a Town-tell. Thus, I've pegged him as Town for now, which leaves Mute. If you recall my previous read on him was that of null leaning Town.

For today, I'll disregard my previous Town reads on Dazzy and Ghostlin and I'll re-judge them on their play starting Today (Day 2).

[Charlie]

There're so many things wrong with that post I'm having trouble deciding where to begin.

1) WIFOM
2) More WIFOM
3) If, for any reason and you're Town, you don't tell publicly who you think is cop (or any other PR, for that matter)
4) Even more WIFOM
5) Why is Ghostlin's hammer so deserving of a vote?
6) Me and cops go hand in hand with internet cats, so if you've seen me mention anything related to cyberspace felines, than you can be sure that something's up.

[Charlie]

@Meransiel: It has already been explained, but I want to emphasize this:- we don't have an edit feature in our games because it's too easy to edit out "slips". Besides, can you imagine the confusion it would cause if everyone edited their posts?

Your "truth" is WIFOM and without a doubt AtE. I'm sorry, but your statements are not very credible.
How does figuring out if there is a cop/doc/roleblocker ever helpful to Town? Way I see it, only Mafia has anything to gain from knowing.

It came out of nowhere. Fast, unexpected, just when I thought the wagon would be kept, people going in and out, for another good 2 pages. Seemed just to rushed, you know. And I'm a little scared by the fact that nobody suspects you at all. Ok, not exactly a little.

I dunno, it seemed rather protown to me. Lynchee was a claimed VT and hammer had adequate reasoning.

@tclawren: Perhaps I'd better explain the concept of breadcrumbing.

To breadcrumb is to leave clues to your role, typically done by PRs but Mafia can do so as well.

In my case, I've made it a point to associate a cop role with internet cats. So if you find anything of that sort then I'm breadcrumbing cop. I personally feel that the best breadcrumb should be unique and hidden in plain sight; but different people have different opinions on what makes a good breadcrumb, so I suggest we leave this subject alone. In non-Newbie games, roles such as mason, tracker, watcher etc. are breadcrumbed as well.

Nice job hammering before several players even got a chance to comment on Meransiel's claim. Oh yeah, and see that bold part up there? See that underlined part in your post? Nice job ignoring the town.

Well that's some new insight. Otherwise, its epic bussing.

I am sorry that TS flipped town, but frankly, if you're wanting much more remorse out of me for hammering...sorry, no.

Regret is often false and scummy
No, actually, I have no idea. Let me think a bit on this.
Well, its obvious that tclawren and Ghostlin are not Mafia together at this point.

I like your complete omission of King. I'm lagging like a mofo on this browser (waay too many tabs open across three windows) so I'm not gonna bother looking back through the game ATM until after I clear out some tabs, so can you also give me/us your read on him from D1 too?
Also why are you going to dismiss your reads on those two players from D1 to build new reads on D2? I can only gather it's in an attempt to see if your reads sync, or some cal like that.

I like your sarcasm. No, no really! I find it quite surprising how some people on aren't able to detect sarcasm of my own; so I tend to get iffy.
Right, about KingTwelveSixteen.. as I recall he was a wildcard in my books. But, after seeing his posts D2 I feel that he's protown. After we lynch Meransiel and he (hopefully) flips Mafia, then I'll look more into the possibility of either you or KingTwelveSixteen is his partner.

-----------

Guys, we're lynching Meransiel Today. This much I'm certain. The wagon formed will give us as much info as his flip, so what'cha waiting for? Get voting!

[Charlie]

Meransiel is at L-1.
I don't see both Meransiel and Ghostlin as Mafia.
I'm having trouble not believing that at least one of them is (i.e. I think its very likely that one of them is Mafia)
Looking closely, Mute's #346 is Town. I'll have to look at him in ISO later.

[Charlie]

Fail.

[Charlie]

@KingTwelveSixteen: The bussing bit was more of thinking out loud. The insight bit meant that you've given me something to think about.

[Charlie]

I'm not sure of my reads anymore

[Charlie]

I'll reread Ghostlin and Mute in ISO and hopefully will be able to comment later this Twilight. These 2 players are really confusing me because of conflicting reads.

[Charlie]

*facepalm*

[Charlie]

Nothing.

[Charlie]

Well.
Ghostlin seems a bit too helpful to be true; this WIFOM in my head is killing me.
Mute seems protown; so why am I getting negative gut feelings about this?
-_-

[Charlie]

If I knew that barring a cop investigation, then I'd win as Town everytime
As I've already stated, I'm confused over my reads. Gimme some time to rethink and organize my thoughts.

[Charlie]

C'mon, you know that I'm hoping you'll flip Mafia.

[Charlie]

Huh! After reading #378, I'm inclined to believe that Ghostlin is, indeed, scummy. What a surprise!

[Charlie]

Popcorn style.

[Charlie]

Yes.

[Charlie]

Ghostlin goes first. Then, KingTwelveSixteen as per his earlier request. Then he'll choose who goes next.

@Mute:Nomming, heh heh.

[Charlie]

Ooh, yes, wagon analysis. Good idea. Let me get on that in the next day or two.

[Charlie]

Claim: Doctor.

N1 protected Ghostlin.
N2 protected Dazzy.
Not on target, but hey it's my first time doing this job.
I did some amount of goofing around on D1 to avoid attracting the NK, but for D2 that's normal play.
Breadcrumbs were like this: On both occasions where I did VCAs (ISO #6 & ISO #23), I coloured my name in blue. There was no other reason to do this. Coupled by the fact that I know that our mod Vel-Rahn Koon does PR flips in blue, I figured that I could make people go "ah of course that's so obvious now!" kind of feeling.

Last to claim is Dazzy.

[Charlie]

VCA is Vote Count Analysis I believe.

Dazzy. Post.
Over the next few days, everyone should scrutinize whether Ghostlin is actually cop or is lying scum.

[Charlie]

@ Charlie: What do you think of Ghost's claim?

I think this:

Its entirely possible that Ghost figured out Charlie was Doc, and chose to claim cop. He had a 50-50 chance of being counter-claimed in either scumteam composition, but if he was confident in his reads and his ability to counter anyone, he could claim freely and worry about the consequences (if any) later.

But, subject to change after rereading the game (honestly muddled up a bit here)

@ Charlie: You never clarified this as far as I saw (sorry if you did), but why was it clear to you that Tclawren and Ghost could not both be scum?

Yeah, it was kinda an offhand comment, wasn't it? It was because of a sequence of posting by those two... such in a way it does not feel natural for both to be Mafia. Hard to explain now, but gimme a bit: I'm sure I can put it in better words.

Charlie, if this flips RB, protect me tonight and I'll investigate either Mute or Dazzy. (I'll flip a coin.) I'll know for sure, because scum will have to kill one of us, they must. This'll lock the game. You ARE innocent. You are a confirmed innocent, so I can trust you. In fact, you're the only one in town I can trust 100% right now. Doesn't mean you're right, but I will NOT support a Charlie lynch AT ALL tonight, and you'll have to lynch me for the lose first.

I know, but... consequences. I worry about them.

-----------

I'll post more after a reread. In the meantime, please don't go throwing votes around. It is LyLo with 2 Mafia & 3 Town.
And Today's lynch is going to be either the claimed cop's scum investigation, or the claimed cop himself.
This much should be clear.

[Charlie]

Oh em gee, Ghostlin!
Use the preview button next time.
And hold up, I promise (hopefully not to be broken) to do a VCA later. There is no hurry.

[Charlie]

Succinctness is protown.

[Charlie]

I really should have announced a V/LA until tomorrow.
I'll try to get a meaningful post up by then.

[Charlie]

Here are all the votecounts in colour! The data is raw like fresh cold steak, I'm going to masticate and ruminate on this for a while.
Regarding the previous walls: I'll read them later.
-----------
Vote Count 1.1

Twistedspoon

- 1 (

gxw

)

gxw

- 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)
Mute - 1 (Ghostlin)

FarmeriXi

- 1 (Mute)
Ghostlin - 1 (Dazzy)

Not Voting - 4 (Charlie,

FarmeriXi

,

Forseti

,

Twistedspoon

)
-----------
Vote Count 1.2

Twistedspoon

- 2 (

gxw

, Dazzy)

gxw

- 2 (KingTwelveSixteen,

Twistedspoon

)
Mute - 1 (Ghostlin)

Not Voting - 4 (Charlie,

FarmeriXi

,

Forseti

, Mute)
-----------
Vote Count 1.3

Twistedspoon

- 3 (

gxw

, Dazzy, Charlie)

gxw

- 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)
Charlie - 2 (Mute, Ghostlin)

Not Voting - 3 (

FarmeriXi

,

Forseti

,

Twistedspoon

)
-----------
Vote Count 1.4

Twistedspoon

- 3 (

gxw

, Dazzy, Charlie)
Charlie - 4 (Mute, Ghostlin,

Twistedspoon

, KingTwelveSixteen)
KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (

FarmeriXi

)

Not Voting - 1 (

Forseti

)
-----------
Vote Count 1.5

Twistedspoon

- 4 (

gxw

, Charlie,

Forseti

, Mute)
Charlie - 2 (Ghostlin,

Twistedspoon

)
KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (

FarmeriXi

)

Not Voting - 2 (Dazzy, KingTwelveSixteen)
-----------
Vote Count 1.6

Twistedspoon

- 3 (

gxw

,

Forseti

, Mute)
Charlie - 1 (Ghostlin)
KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (

FarmeriXi

)

gxw

- 1 (Charlie)

Not Voting - 3 (Dazzy, KingTwelveSixteen,

Twistedspoon

)
-----------
Vote Count 1.7

Twistedspoon

- 3 (

gxw

,

Forseti

, Mute)
Charlie - 1 (Ghostlin)
KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (

FarmeriXi

)

gxw

- 1 (Charlie)

FarmeriXi

- 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)

Not Voting - 2 (Dazzy,

Twistedspoon

)

Twistedspoon

- 3 (

tclawren

,

Forseti

, Mute)

tclawren

- 2 (Charlie, Ghostlin)

Meransiel

- 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)

No Lynch - 1 (

Meransiel

)

Not Voting - 2 (Dazzy,

Twistedspoon

)
-----------
Vote Count 1.9

Twistedspoon

- 3 (

Forseti

, Mute, Dazzy)

Meransiel

- 2 (KingTwelveSixteen,

tclawren

)

Forseti

- 1 (

Twistedspoon

)
Charlie - 1 (Ghostlin)

Not Voting - 2 (Charlie,

Meransiel

)
-----------
Vote Count 1.10

Twistedspoon

- 5 (

Forseti

, Mute, Dazzy,

tclawren

, Ghostlin)

Meransiel

- 2 (KingTwelveSixteen,

Twistedspoon

)

Not Voting - 2 (Charlie,

Meransiel

)
-----------
Vote Count 2.1

Meransiel

- 4 (Charlie, Mute, Ghostlin,

tclawren

)
Ghostlin - 1 (

Meransiel

)

Not Voting - 2 (Dazzy, KingTwelveSixteen)
-----------
Vote Count 3.1

KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (Ghostlin)
Ghostlin - 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)

Not Voting - 3 (Charlie, Dazzy, Mute)
-----------
Vote Count 3.2

KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (Ghostlin)
Ghostlin - 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)

Not Voting - 3 (Charlie, Dazzy, Mute)
-----------
Vote Count 3.3

KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (Ghostlin)
Ghostlin - 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)

Not Voting - 3 (Charlie, Dazzy, Mute)

[Charlie]

Look like Mute stands out from the rest. He was on most of the leading wagons.
Dazzy's on the other end of the spectrum, he seems to be not voting more than the rest.
KingTwelveSixteen's voting pattern is not scummy... he never participated in the lynching wagons. I don't believe Mafia would be THAT passive.
I believe both Mafia were on the TS lynching wagon @ 1.10.
Ditto the Meransiel wagon @ 2.1
These 2 lynching wagons carry the most information out of all the VCAs.
If I have to call it, I'd say we're in 2 goon 1 doc setup and the Mafia are Ghostlin & Mute. Both participated in both mislynches.
That's my 2 cents.
Thoughts?

[Charlie]

Oh, it had better not be deja vu with this kind of setup again! I'm kinda hoping that my reads are wrong because, seriously, if its again an all newbie VTs... That is quite disconcerting.

[Charlie]

Timestamp: Start reading WoTs.

[Charlie]

Sorry for not putting up anything yesterday, was busy writing out an essay and praying homage to the porcelain gods.

[Charlie]

Almost done reading, but critical information I request:

@Dazzy: Your said case.
@KingTwelveSixteen: Ghostlin's most probable scumbuddy.
@Mute: Two suspects.
@Ghostlin: Actually, nothing. Why did you change your avatar?

[Charlie]

Timestamp: Finished reading.

I read most, but not every word.
AtE is detected.
Feels like a courtroom, but in the end the defense of KingTwleveSixteen wins. Means that I think Ghostlin is lying, and this is me stating intention to vote him.
However, I first would like to hear from Mute and Dazzy.
Other than that, I'm done here.

[Charlie]

See, here's my point: everyone suspects Mute. If we lynch correctly today, and there is no further points to discuss, then Tomorrow's lynch is already decided. Am I wrong?

[Charlie]

Let me ask you a question that's a bit WIFOMsque, Charlie: Stop and think about this for a minute: TClaw was fairly convinced I was town. King was screaming bloody murder Day 2 that I wasn't town. His entire reasoning for not airing his suspicions Twilight 1 was he was afraid if I was scum I'd NK him. Two things I wanna ask you as the IC:

1) First off, as a VT, why would he be afraid to die? He

didn't

claim a PR, and outside of lylo, VT's have not much to lose.
2) Why would it be more optimal if you accept Ghostlin=scum, for me to get rid of a player who had less suspicion of me than than King did? Also, Foresti never suspected me of anything N1 and was not and active player. Besides WIFOM, what's my motive for killing a possible mislynch?

1) I... honestly don't quite follow. Didn't claim a PR means... that he didn't claim a PR. That's that.
2) You tell me, I'm not you.

Those questions are difficult to answer, IC or not.

[Charlie]

Ghostlin, I'm pretty sure you've said you investigated King in the hope that he is Town. What's with your first reply to Mute in the above? I know you explained in your second part, but I find your ambivalence suspicious.

I have to say that I don't share your belief that King made an aborted soft claim. I think you're trying just a bit too hard as to sound convincing here, which further makes me doubt your Cop claim.

[Charlie]

Uh... No, Dazzy. We must lynch correctly for there to be a Night 3.
As for the most likely person not to survive said Night...

[Charlie]

Uh-oh!

[Charlie]

And just when I'm getting an inkling of changing my mind about Ghostlin's claim...

[Charlie]

Good game.

Well, in terms of gameplay I thought I did pretty okay. Didn't draw a NK as Doc and VCA did manage to pick out Mute as scummy. Didn't read Ghostlin correctly, and highly probable that I'd end up voting for him anyway if Dazzy didn't. Congrats to the Mafia team for the prefect win.

I'll try to post some comments to each individual player for some constrictive feedback after the game has officially been declared over.

Also, maybe then you guys can comment on how I did as a first time IC. I personally feel that both SE Ghostlin and SE Mute were great in helping out in explaining the basics of the game. I hope there was no aspect of game theory/jargon that was confusing in this game.

[Charlie]

Read the scum QT. One of the most co-ordinated ones I've ever seen, and certainly contributed to the Mafia perfect win.
Surprisingly, Mute's comment about getting ideas in the shower sticks to my mind. How random.

-----------

Individualized comments

Dazzy - I think you've done it right. I thought you were very Town at the start, I thought you were very Town at the end. Even the Mafia team thought you were very Town. Keep posting like that and you'll be winning games for sure. LyLo with a claimed cop with a guilty result is difficult, as Vel said, so don't take it so hard. Heck, I'd probably have voted Ghostlin anyway.

Meransiel - I think you've learned what went wrong here. Your #527 proves it. That is the best outcome in a Newbie game; that is what it is aimed for.

Forseti - Being the NK target on Night 1 stinks, but it had to be someone. I had a null read on you, so I can't really comment on your play much. Perhaps you'll be playing more games here in the future.

Ghostlin - I was wrong. You were Cop, King was Mafia. Your play was good, but as time goes on I find myself reading fewer and fewer Walls of Text. Succinctness is protown, a scummer called Elmo once said. Another scummer, Vi, also said that not all WoTs are required reading. I think it is in his guide (at the wiki). I hold these believes to be true.
Funny thing is I've been in your shoes before, in a slightly different situation in that deja vu link I've posted.

tclawren - I've got a null read on you most of the game, you managed to blend into the background well and not attract much attention to yourself. I feel this is a useful skill to stay alive as a PR, so I'm surprised that you're NK-ed N2. But reading the Mafia QT explains why you were chosen pretty well.

KingTwelveSixteen - You got Wall of Texting skills. It will prove a formidable weapon.
Perhaps, now in retrospect, your twilight (post D1) post of "I'll comment on D2 later" is a newbie scumslip. I'll be adding this one to my book.

Mute - You've played a good game, and deserving of the win.
You're the first scummy person I've detected via VCA. Hey, looks like it does work! Yay.

Twistedspoon - You're very gung ho. I don't know if that a trait or just a sign of being a newbie, but this isn't too much of a problem as you play more games. Perhaps at times you're better of being patient and comment from the sidelines rather than taking an argument head to head.

Moderator, Vel-Rahn Koon - You are the herdsman. I am a big sheep. There are 2 medium sized sheep. And 6 other smaller sheep.
You are a good herdsman.

-----------

Thank you all, gg and hope to see you peeps in future games.

[Charlie]

Oh. If I drive around aimlessly, other drives blare their horns at me and I can't hear myself think.
Right you are on the evidence based cases, with VCA + ISO to support it.
I believe you meant to say "torn apart" in that last sentence.