Newbie 1072 - Game Over!

[Mute]

@Ghostlin: OMGUS! (translated = oh my god you suck)

Hello all; it seems I'm an SE this game. All that means is I've played a few games here and have the gist of the goings on here. If anyone has any questions, the IC or me and the other SE will do our best to answer them and to help you guys with the game.

Vote: Farmerixi

: I don't like farmers.

[Mute]

*sigh*

Unvote

Well GXW, I think you've brought us out of RVS, so applauding you for that. Page 1, D1, and already out of the RVS. Not a first for me but it still amazes me.

My input on the GXW / Spoon debacle - pure silliness. I won't bother with commenting on it further than that as it is, as I said, pure silliness. Not going to put a vote down til I've solid/concrete reasons for doing so.

[Mute]

@Charlie: Not being mute about it (I C wut U did thar :igmeoy:). I gave my opinion on it.

Now,

No, I do not normally post in that manner. That was my short intro and jump into what little bit of RVS fun I would have. Now it seems the RVS ended very quickly and at this point I do not have any tells on anyone. I am more curious to see what will happen over the next couple of pages (some good discussions happening although I can't really find anything to que in on atm.)

Farmer, did you read what had transpired so far in the game before you posted that, seeing as you double voted after it'd been said that double voting during the RVS was a pretty solid by two other players?

[Mute]

...
EBWOP: As ghostlin and now I have demonstrated guys, it's usually a good idea to press Preview before posting.
the :igmeoy: I put was supposed to come out as the emote for the snarkiness of it. Who would'a thunk that u = you? >_>

[Mute]

Not liking the wagon on TS at all. His early game behavior was over eager to say the least but it felt town motivated.

Vote: Charlie

Scum over-inflating a weak issue, and I don't like this question of your's Charlie.

@Dazzy: Random question for you; how did you feel when you got your Role PM?

Dazzy's response?

@ Charlie

I find your question to be a bit loaded. Giving my deep reaction to my role PM would most likely be as good as a role claim to an experienced player, and so I will not go any further than to say that I was genuinely excited to begin my first game of Mafia. Hopefully this game will continue to get more interesting as more people post their own thoughts.

Charlie what was the purpose of that question? I can't see a town-motivation for asking how someone felt about their role.

[Mute]

On another note, since I saw others give their time zones, I dont know what my -# xxx is, but I live in New Jersey so I have an EST time.

[Mute]

Charlie: Not enough to take it to L-2 at that stage, no. Counter question to you. Would YOU have placed that vote if I had and taken it to L-1? Or were you trying to make a point?

I don't know. I guess I was just trying to make a point.

Which was?

Charlie what was the purpose of that question? I can't see a town-motivation for asking how someone felt about their role.

A straightforward answer is that is one of many questions from a "standard" Random Questioning Stage (RQS) that I picked up and decided to use here. The responses has exceeded my expectations.

Okay, yeah I'm comfortable with my vote.
Charlie I asked you why you asked that question, and your justification/response was "I saw others do it and I got more than I expected;" this is not answering the question. Skirting around it is scum-behavior. How about you share your initial expectations and why the response has "exceeded" your expectations.

@Ghostlin: Good point on the claiming part. I'd like to add that it is bad play for Townies to lie about their role. Time and again, it has showed no proven benefit except in rare cases (and Newbie games are as standard as a game can get, so don't do it!)

Ghostlin's vote and reasons against me is noted, I have no comment on the matter at this time.

First, yes if this is how you go about giving IC advice mixed in with gameplay I'd like to ask for you to bring notice to it that stands out from gameplay. Hide it behind spoilers, bold and italicize the text, something. Hell, there's one BBC code that entirely encases text in an embossed box. I don't remember what it's called but that could work too.

Next though, why do you not have a comment? I know it's not inherently scum-behavior to refuse to answer a question, but in context of your actions so far it is.

-----------

Right, so I noticed a mixed response to my actions and it seems I've been put in the spotlight a bit. I'd like it be known that I'm a little busy IRL in the coming week so I'll definitely not be a rapid poster.

This I don't know how to interpret correctly. My brain's giving me a few options.
1) I am actually going to be busy so please don't lynch me before I can defend myself.
2) I'm going to use the "I won't be here much" for an excuse to stall the wagon on me because town's caught me.
3) (an extension/alternative to two) I'm gonna now go hide in the corner and watch what you all do because I wanna see how my actions affect town.

Again you mention getting mixed responses to your actions, and addressing that there's a wagon on you. What defenses have you mounted thus far other than "I see people noticing my actions, interesting.. *rubs chin*"


---
Preview Edit:
I see that

now

Charlie's at L-1. NO ONE ELSE PLACE A VOTE UNTIL CHARLIE EXPLAINS HIMSELF. If he turns out to be town I want to see what his results from the questions he asked were, if they could help us find scum.

[Mute]

Okay, first things first:
Reaffirming that one's status as SE or IC does not exclude them from being scum. To believe that in a newbie game a player that's an SE or IC is instantly town is folly. Ghostlin was in my first newbie game here (or rather subbed in) and he can attest to it; my first game here as a newbie the SE was scum. For future games in the newbie queue keep that in mind, as well as in other game queues that experience does not matter what one's role will be.

Why did you ask someone how they felt about their role? This is as good as rolefishing, which you have just said is a bad thing.

As I said before, it was part of a RQS, which is used to generate discussion. The answers don't really matter, the reactions of other people to them do. Reactions are gold, and that is what I was trying to achieve. It has exceeded my expectations because the reactions I got were strong ones; logical ones, and were all suspicion of myself. This is a trifecta!

So, one of the reactions you were aiming to get was conversation rolling, and one method of doing that was to portray yourself of being suspicious; am I right? This is what I assume to be what your expectations were and if I'm incorrect please do correct me. It's a sound enough of a strategy I'd suppose, but I still don't entirely like it.
But, the answers do matter, I should like to think. Sure not as much as reactions, but to a degree. Consider this a difference of opinion though.

@Mute: Some answers are already covered in the above. As for these:

This I don't know how to interpret correctly. My brain's giving me a few options.
1) I am actually going to be busy so please don't lynch me before I can defend myself.
2) I'm going to use the "I won't be here much" for an excuse to stall the wagon on me because town's caught me.
3) (an extension/alternative to two) I'm gonna now go hide in the corner and watch what you all do because I wanna see how my actions affect town.

I think you're over-thinking. I'm just saying that I'm not going to be active like 10 posts a day; more like 1 post a day or 1 post in 2 days.

Over-thinking and over-analyzing are traits of mine. Whether they are good or not is never initially easy to determine. But you make sense, and my initial read of your post was right. Anyways, while I'm still going to keep an eye on you I think it's better to not let scum quick-hammer, so:

Unvote

.

Now, TS, you've caught my eye with something:
(Saw others post in preview, so will expand in next post on this)

[Mute]

Case cracked:

scum are almost definitely Charlie and Forest
We can't lynch these two fast enough

and

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Conclusion: Dazzy and Charlie are the scum 99% sure; case solved.
gg guys

Do you think that, by page 5, you've caught scum? You've just flat-out called three people scum in a game of two-scum-versus-7-town. This overconfidence you've got with your accusations is what gets me most.

strawmanning are we now?

pick the weakest part of my argument, attack that, and then ignore the rest.

strawmanning noted

Thanks for bringing this up, since on top of all the misreps, you decided to cherry pick my posts the exact same way as you just accused someone else of doing to you.

wrong

I quoted what, 4 quotes, from your argument.
Charlie quoted one weak point to attack and then ignored the rest.
Also this shows you're protecting him again; how delightful

"Hey guys I have a lot more stuff written compared to others so I'm town for it and they're scum lets lynch 'em guys!!"
Quality > Quantity.
You can argue "hey he only chose certain points of mine to counter he's scum guys!!" You cant realistically expect every point brought up by one person to another to be recognized. Sure it makes the person defending themself seem more town but there isn't anything specifically scummy about choosing which arguments you wish to counter.

and now you're setting up a better counter-wagon since you've seen your Dazzy one to be unjustifiable

personally, I welcome my lynch. Then, when I flip town, you'll know I was right all along, and will go ahead and lynch you two. Then we (town) win.
The same cannot be said for you too being scum.

You can lynch me, but when I flip town, go for these two. Then I'll be a happy chap.

So, at L-2, you're soft-claiming town.. uh huuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh
Lemme ask you a hypothetical question, unless you are scum how can you be so confident in the alignment of others?

Right… tell you what. If you ever find a wagon you don’t like build up too fast in a game your playing, keep your mouth shut about it and just let it happen.

Probably the worst piece of town advice I've ever read.
There are probably 100 things wrong with it
I don't even know where to start...
The town's best and only weapon is their voice, and you're trying to stop us even using that

I think you missed the point he was making. For the sake of others I'll provide the context.

Again. If you’re going to misrep, do a better job.

I don't care how the case was phrased.
What matters is that Charlie dodged the questions which show he is scum. Double the reason to suspect him, and now you for protecting him.

Right… tell you what. If you ever find a wagon you don’t like build up too fast in a game your playing, keep your mouth shut about it and just let it happen. Obviously, it’s far more protown to let a lynch you don’t like go through without a single objection than it is to point out why you don’t like the case.

Also, good to know you’ll push the hell out of a careless case to get a lynch, noted.

Why bold the point Forseti made? It stands out. You're taking flimsy things and overinflating them. You've quoted someone without giving the context and misinterpreting their post. If you were pro-town you would have quoted the entirety of Forseti's post, not just pick out what parts you wanted to address and cut the rest out, something you're willing to lynch Charlie over.

Lastly:

Wow, both Charlie and TS are at L-1, and personally I am much more in favor of a TS lynch right now. I would like both people to claim before I hammer.

Can i just say that if someone hammers me now, instead of Charlie, the I'll flip town

Then we'll know I'm town and that scum will probably be on my wagon.

And then we'll look at my wagon, see the mafia suspects Foresti and Charlie on it and then we'll have our mafia

simples

gxw has a town read in my book by the way. I don't want you to suspect him for being on my wagon if he hammers me. Go for foresti and Charlie instead.

and

before I go or you guys hammer me, remember that If I was mafia I wouldn't be posting this much. I'd prefer to lie low and be slightly more than a lurker, but not as active as I am now.

Sure you can counter this argument with WIFOM, but Farmerxi knows how active I was in the last game and I wan't scum. Also, unlike scum, I'm not afraid of my lynch as then you'll see that all my suspicions were townie ones, not scum ones, when I flip town.
This is why the mafia always keep me alive. I'm active. Therefore I post a lot, therefore there are more chances for me to slip up.

anyaways, I claim Vanilla townie. no fancy roles.
If you choose to believe me or not, that's your choice. I can't force you to believe I'm town, and I won't blame any of you for hammering me.
It's your choice. never forget that the town's greatest weapon is their voice. Let it be heard.

~Twistedspoon

So now you're flat out role-claiming VT and are both appealing to ______ and sprinkling your case against Charlie/Forseti and defending yourself with a case of WIFOM? Again you claim Charlie/Forset to be scum, damning them without accepting their ability to defend themselves by saying "if I'm lynched they are scum" with your first quote, then giving a

single

town-read on one player.
Question: What is your opinion of all of the players i.e. who do you think is town and who do you think is scum?

Also in your second quote you claim that a townie's voice is their best weapon, but you mention your own activity and use that to defend yourself with:

If I was mafia I wouldn't be posting this much. I'd prefer to lie low and be slightly more than a lurker, but not as active as I am now.

How can you swing so far from one end of the spectrum to another within a single post? By that I mean how can you say that a townie's voice is their best weapon, and yet be apprehensive to use it, unless you're scum and are worried you'll be caught slipping?
This is flailing, and given the claim of yours at an L-2 scenario, I'm more comfortable now with you being lynched D1.

Vote: TwistedSpoon

This is L-1.

[Mute]

@Ghostlin: If the deadline were immediate, I'd say TS, simply because of his actions so far. I don't like how charlie started with the role/reaction fishing, and his ambiguity doesn't sit well with me either. My vote can switch to either or but I'm more comfortable with TS being a D1 lynch.

@All: I'm going to take tomorrow off as my reservation of pokemon white will be released so I'll be busy playing that most of tomorrow. (Yes I still play pokemon. dealwithit.jpg)

[Mute]

-typical "I'm still here" post-
Haven't read a thing after my post on top of page 6, will try to do so today. Been enjoying my new game a bit more than I thought.

[Mute]

._.
Okay; I'm not replacing out but saying why I took a step away.
Charlie I've been trying to see what you were talking about when you said you had gotten reactions better than you'd anticipated.

Also, I had something longer typed up but thanks to the joys of power cutting out and me not saving.. I'll get something up today. (on the bright side most of what I had written before was "i can't see a thing," so hopefully I'll be able to see something)

[Mute]

I'll change my vote when I think it's necessary.

This post right here?
Yeah; not scummy.
Meran doing a quick check on your posts shows this is your first newbie game here. Correct me if I'm wrong but your no-lynch vote before combined with this statement shows you aren't sure who would be the best lynch candidate for D1 right? This is what I gathered from your post, anyways.

[Mute]

You all... you people... quit posting so much! I read three posts and *poof* seven more!
/exaggeration.
I know I haven't been here much. Two games (this is one) and studying shit.

Should be able to pay more attention here now though.

P-EDIT:: Hammer'd

~~
This post will just have my thoughts in order as I read the latest pages. different areas will be seperated by dashes as I don't know how to make those raised boxes.
~~

...
Charlie - Obvscum.

Question to the more experienced players: Do scum or town usually confess more often to being scum. I can't imagine why either would want to do it. Is charlie trying to confuse us? Am i just looking too much into it?

Anyways, will post later; Haven't forgotten

No, scum do not out themselves unless it's part of a WIFOM example.
Charlie, from being the IC in this game, your antics thus far are really, well..

Dude, I did not comment on anything specifically. I am not suspicious towards anybody. I'm not attacking people. Then why did you say I'm trying too hard to appear pro-town?

Town = attacking people and pushing for a lynch. Do you not know this? In a situation like this if you have no reads, no suspicions, and no desire to push for a lynch, you're acting incredibly anti-town. However, this does not mean I'm calling you scum.
See, I never noticed farmer really. Meran's posts thus far though are making me very suspicious of that slot. Especially after

I didn't say I don't want a lynch to take place. I just don't want to have a part in it, unless the proof is obvious enough.

---
...Oh, you just claimed to being a power role... Okay.
You guys are assuming there's a RB right out of the gate, however. In the four setups in the F11, there's only two with a RB, and of those one is a game with pure VT's. Setup speculation does no good as 3/4 setups have a power role, of those only one has a RB in it.
Even if I were to believe you Ghostlin, there's on error I see:

TC; the only other option is a roleblock. If he's RBed, that confirms the setup if we accept Mer's town. Yes, it sucks, but it's the most logical play right now.

From a scum perspective: Okay, if we buy his claim then there's at least one PR; setup is mostly revealed.
From a town perspective: Okay, if we buy his claim then there's at least one PR; setup is partially revealed.
The problem I have is only scum would know anything for certain.

---
...I had a post here about something TS said, but I see ghostlin hammered... I can retype it if you'd all like but I wanna get something in before the mod closes the thread.

[Mute]

triple Ninja'd:

keep him alive? what if that's what the mafia want us to do.

Assuming he isn't mafia the mafia could just RB him and thus make him seem scum by having a claimed PR still alive.
Assuming he is mafia we should lynch him.

really don't know why he softclaimed at all. It doesn't answer my question at all and there was no hammer on him

This and all other posts claiming that I was not in a tight situation, I WAS actually. Before softclaiming, I was at L-2, and a lot of people were rethinking Ts' scumminess (who was at L-2 too).

In short, yes, I was at risk. But the good part (for you at least) is that, given my self endangerment, I can now scumhunt and vote without consequence!

Still looking for slips, tho...

Wrong.
Check out my newbie game where I was doc. I was lynched for the same thing you're doing now. You're in suspect.

[Mute]

In short, yes, I was at risk. But the good part (for you at least) is that, given my self endangerment, I can now scumhunt and vote without consequence!

no, you'll probably get nightkilled unless the mafia have an RB or wish to play Wifom

and what do you mean without consequence? We don't know for sure you're not mafioso, 'twas just too risky for you to be today's kill

and L-2 is nothing. L-1 + announced intention to hammer is when a claim should be made
you were safe from the hammer, at least whilst I lived.

By "without consequence" I mean that it can't get any worse, so it serves me no good playing cautiously, so I won't. And L-2 is something if you're the prime suspect.


@Mute: there are games and there are games. Might happen, might not.

@Ghostlin: I seriously don't expect to get to lylo.

I am the type of person who does not like to use meta, but that is the meta of the site. If you do things that are anti-town you'll be lynched for them for being a liability to town.

[Mute]

In short, yes, I was at risk. But the good part (for you at least) is that, given my self endangerment, I can now scumhunt and vote without consequence!

no, you'll probably get nightkilled unless the mafia have an RB or wish to play Wifom

and what do you mean without consequence? We don't know for sure you're not mafioso, 'twas just too risky for you to be today's kill

and L-2 is nothing. L-1 + announced intention to hammer is when a claim should be made
you were safe from the hammer, at least whilst I lived.

By "without consequence" I mean that it can't get any worse, so it serves me no good playing cautiously, so I won't. And L-2 is something if you're the prime suspect.


@Mute: there are games and there are games. Might happen, might not.

@Ghostlin: I seriously don't expect to get to lylo.

I am the type of person who does not like to use meta, but that is the meta of the site. If you do things that are anti-town you'll be lynched for them for being a liability to town.

TS will die. If he is a townie, and at night the goons manage to kill another townie, we will be 5 versus 2. And in a 5 versus 2 situation, you can't exactly lynch someone for being a liability, you gotta lynch people that might consistently be scum.

...

I'm just going to wait for the mod to initiate N1. This reminds me too much of something I'm not going to discuss further as it's on-going.

[Mute]

So cool we're calling people scum based off of candy. SOUNDS GOOD TO ME!

Vote: Charlie

because he owns the chocolate factory.


*poke* King1216, you said you'd give us your thoughts on D2. Would you care to?
*stab* Ghost; avatar get please and thank you.

Vote: Meran

You're still alive. If your D1 play wasn't scummy I might as well quit the mafia game since I lack the understanding of scumminess. Farmer I got a null-to-town read from from his play, but Meran's shot that to hell and back.

[Mute]

In short, yes, I was at risk. But the good part (for you at least) is that, given my self endangerment, I can now scumhunt and vote without consequence!

no, you'll probably get nightkilled unless the mafia have an RB or wish to play Wifom

and what do you mean without consequence? We don't know for sure you're not mafioso, 'twas just too risky for you to be today's kill

and L-2 is nothing. L-1 + announced intention to hammer is when a claim should be made
you were safe from the hammer, at least whilst I lived.

By "without consequence" I mean that it can't get any worse, so it serves me no good playing cautiously, so I won't. And L-2 is something if you're the prime suspect.


@Mute: there are games and there are games. Might happen, might not.

@Ghostlin: I seriously don't expect to get to lylo.

I am the type of person who does not like to use meta, but that is the meta of the site. If you do things that are anti-town you'll be lynched for them for being a liability to town.

TS will die. If he is a townie, and at night the

goons

manage to kill another townie, we will be 5 versus 2. And in a 5 versus 2 situation, you can't exactly lynch someone for being a liability, you gotta lynch people that might consistently be scum.

ISO #26

[Mute]

@Mute: Do you mind elaborating on Mer's scumminess? You seem quite convinced and I obviously don't see what you do to the same extent.

I'll try to keep it nice and trim.
Him being alive is WIFOM.

Factoids:
He claimed a PR D1 (I don't recall him ever specifying what role exactly)
TS was indeed a VT.
He said that there were two goons in the setup. (This isn't anything solid as he might very well be a townie guessing as to the setup. Doing so in D1 along with his other play doesn't sit well with me. (BTW the parenthesis are personal thoughts and inputs.))

Scenario A: He is town. He is says he was RB'd N1.
A1: He is cop and he was RB'd. ("Hey guise I'm a cop but I got RB'd N1 so I got nothing.")
A2: He is Doc.
A2a: He was RB'd and chose to protect Forseti ("Hey guise I'm doc but my protect was blocked")
A2b: He was RB'd and chose to protect someone else ("Hey guise I protected someone else")

Scenario B: He's scum gambiting.

It's too easy for him to follow any of the 'A' scenarios and use them to try and prove his innocence. 'B' makes more sense to me. Until we get either a RB flip or a cop AND doc flip, there is no guarantee there even

is

a scum RB'er this game. So if he wants to form an argument for his innocence based on setup speculation and confusing the town with it I say be my guest scum.

If there're any flaws you can see in this, point them out. For now he's my top scum suspect.

[Mute]

So far during D2: Meran spews WIFOM like a politician spews lies, does nothing directly to accuse anyone of being scum ("Hey guys blah blah my actions blah blah hey why don't we all look over here at this

other

person?"), and personally confirmed for either VI or newb-scum. Either way he's the most detrimental player this game.

Unvote

and

HoS: Meran

. Meran I am done with you. If you get to L-1 I'll hammer you myself, but I'm not wasting my vote on you yet.

Now then. Ghost's hammer felt like a town hammer and holding that against him is fool's play I feel. TClaw's got a town vibe coming off of him to me. Charlie?

FoS

.

^Hurr. I rolled my eyes like

-----------

Why Mute, eh? Process of elimination:

Twistedspoon

- 5 (

Forseti

, Mute,

Dazzy

, tclawren,

Ghostlin

)
Meransiel - 2 (KingTwelveSixteen,

Twistedspoon

)

Not Voting - 2 (

Charlie

, Meransiel)

Dark green = flipped Town
Light green = my Town reads
Blue = myself

tclawren, who replaced gxw, gave a reply to my question which I found as a Town-tell. Thus, I've pegged him as Town for now, which leaves Mute. If you recall my previous read on him was that of null leaning Town.

For today, I'll disregard my previous Town reads on Dazzy and Ghostlin and I'll re-judge them on their play starting Today (Day 2).

I like your complete omission of King. I'm lagging like a mofo on this browser (waay too many tabs open across three windows) so I'm not gonna bother looking back through the game ATM until after I clear out some tabs, so can you also give me/us your read on him from D1 too?
Also why are you going to dismiss your reads on those two players from D1 to build new reads on D2? I can only gather it's in an attempt to see if your reads sync, or some cal like that.

Dazzy I honestly don't know. ._. I know that's bad of me but as I'm writing this he doesn't stand out in my mind. Once I get this lag issue sorted out I'll go back and try to get something.

King: You assumed you'd be alive for D2. Why is that? It's pointless trying to figure out why it was Forseti that was NK'ed, but it's not all that pro-town to keep info for yourself in twilight saying you've got something you'd like to say. So what would you have done if you were killed by scum?

[Mute]

Ghost you're comparing his play now to my play then. He claimed D1 with little pressure on him, I claimed D2 to further push a lynch on a person who turned out post-game to be scum. Apples and oranges. Your arguments then were merited in that it did seem very odd that I as doc was kept alive that long after two blocks. However I did so only to get a scum lynched.
His play, however, I is bad. Claiming a PR D1 then saying he lied about it D2 just to draw a kill towards him is so WIFOM-y I think I can get tipsy off of it. Saying that someone else is a PR is way too anti-town. An unneeded claim on D1 is wrong by all accounts.

I stand by what I said. I'm going to hunt for other players I feel to be scum now, but I'm not dismissing Meran. If he gets to L-1 I'll place the hammer, but until then play is better focused on finding someone else.

...
King: You assumed you'd be alive for D2. Why is that? It's pointless trying to figure out why it was Forseti that was NK'ed, but it's not all that pro-town to keep info for yourself in twilight saying you've got something you'd like to say. So what would you have done if you were killed by scum?

...I would have been dead.
You can't do anything after you die.

And it was more "I don't want to say something that will make me die tonight" then it was "I'm not going to die tonight."

My point is this: if you had suspicions to use against scum, then by saying "I'll wait til tomorrow to give my opinions on stuff" wouldn't help town just as much as it'd incite scum. If your play D1 brought reason for scum to target you your input wouldve died with you.
For example, Forseti's last post:

Really sorry guys, I had to rush out of town with the wife for a few days after my pop-in-law took sick, make sure he was okay.

He's a bit of a techno-phobe, about the most advanced electrical item he's got is a microwave, and that's under sufferance, so I couldn't get online. Noticed we got replacements, so hi and how you doin' to those folks.

Anyway, it's after 3am, I just got home about twenty minutes ago from a 5 hour drive, and I'm absolutely beat.

Sorry again, reread and catchup after I go collapse somewhere.

Notice how in his last post he said he'd give his thoughts? You did the same thing (more or less) and he was killed.

[Mute]

@Mer: instead of being useless and putting out nothing at all, how about you give us your reads, hm? Do something.
@TClaw:

"assuming Mer is scum." Assuming he isn't scum, would your reads differ? Why bring this up?

Ninja'd by the preview. Since it's still an on-going game I can't say much for that specifically, but I have seen town play that is borderline drain bamaged.
@Mod: Vote count when you have a moment? Also I know it's only been a day since he's posted but if you get back after he's hit the 2 day period can we get a prod from him and one for King as well? But on my count Mer's at L-1. I'll give Dazzy/King til tomorrow morning (EST morning) /whenever I wake up and check on the thread then, but I've got a play to attend tonight so I won't be back til around 2300.

[Mute]

Welcome back Dazzy.
(If anyone cares to know I saw "Heaven Can Wait." The production was pretty good IMO.)

Vote: Meran

Okay, post time.
---
@King: You said (Im too lazy to quote) "Also, nobody explained why Mer mentioning that there are two scum means that Mer is scum."
He claimed there were two goons in the set-up. However he's also been going on about how there's a cop and doctor. IT's impossible for both to be true. If he isn't scum that fails at being scum he's a VI and is harmful in LYLO which we are now going to enter.

@Dazzy: "My previous posts in D2, well shit. I cringed myself the next day when I reread. Ghost is entirely right in that I assumed that Mer had claimed a role he really hadn't. It was a stupid, tired post made based on my interpretation of his soft-claim ("keeping his hands clean" is inherently doctorish to me).

I want to make it clear right now that I AM NOT A COP. I don't want anyone under this false impression, because it will hurt town in the end."

His comment would seem to be a doctor breadcrumb... or rather a flat-out feather-light claim since it's uber soft, so that makes sense in context I'll admit.
However why would you blurt out 'I AM NOT A COP?' That makes no sense to me.

[Mute]

EBWOP:
GAKERSHPFLUGHENHAZTALYIVNER!!!

"IMAGE" is supposed to be this:

[Mute]

It's where we say "I think X is scummiest so they should claim," then make/build/expand upon cases from there.

I'm for it but I'm noming Charlie.

[Mute]

MULTI-POST-ULTIMATE-COMBO-MATIC-MACHINE

...

Yes, I was hoping Mer was scum and picked the wrong role to claim.

In a

2 Goons setup,

that is entirely possible.
...

Two goons? Oh, I wonder how you know there isn't a roleblocker, hmm?

Since you asked for it:

Claim: VT

I call Charlie to go next.

Now then
What makes you so sure that there is one? I can trust Ghost's claim as he's had a town read from me the entire game. Combine ghost's claim of you being guilty and this post just feels really smug to me. I know, that doesn't make sense, but how I read the posts in my head this sounded so smug and sarcastic.
My point in that is I can't help but wonder if this is a slip.

HoS: King1216

Prove to me you're town and I should dismiss Ghost's claim or eventually I'll change that to a vote.

[Mute]

Charlie what does VCA stand for?

[Mute]

@ Mute: After Mer's flip, do you still feel your arguments against him were valid? What is your opinion on Ghost's claim?

As I said, I trust Ghost's claim. Not enough to make me early-vote for king in case ghost is lying, but enough to make me suspect king. It's late and I'm too tired to go back and do much in ways of an ISO read though, so I'll tackle that tomorrow.
Do I stand by my actions on Meran? Yes. He's a VI (supported by the fact Vel-Rahn had to edit in after Mer posted something, warning Mer to shut up or he'd cost the town the game. =_=) and they are the single worst enemy to town aside from scum. Do I regret hammering him when he turned up town? No in that if he were still here he'd bog down any real scumhunting discussion, and make my head burst from frustration. Did him flipping town get to me? Yeah, I never like seeing town get lynched, but it happens. You accept it and move on to your next scum candidate. Today we should hopefully get one of the two.

On that note of course it is a single breadcrumb, which could easily have been placed by scum to set-up a mislynch today. Ghostlin, do you have any other breadcrumbs for being a cop?

@Ghostlin: Take it from me, when used correctly a doc is just as great an investigative role as cop.
@King: I'll address you tomorrow after reading through where I see the debate beginning between you and Ghost. Specifically, my starting point is post #355. For now: why did you not vote during D2?

[Mute]

Sorry for not putting up anything yesterday, was busy writing out an essay and praying homage to the porcelain gods.

Quick interjection here: Ghost I asked you before but I guess you missed it, so I'll re-ask.
Do you have

any

other breadcrumbs laid out? I'd honestly like to believe your claim, but if you only have that single breadcumb to implicate king, my opinions of you and king are going to be on shaky grounds. =|

[Mute]

Ugh. =_=

Sorry I haven't really been keeping up. Last thing I read was ghost responding to my post.

I've been rushing between home and the recruiters, revising shit and trying to study a ****load of terms I should have known last

month

. I won't opt out for replacement but tomorrow I'll actually sit and read through those walls. (Mastin would be impressed I bet... nah.)

Charlie (reads last post for ease of smallness (thank you ._.")) my reads are shot thanks to being distracted. I'll get back to you on that tomorrow.

[Mute]

Sorry for not having something posted last night guys, but there's two reasons for it. One reason was I was distracted with other things, like xbox and pokemon, because after a while I got stuck and confused while reading the thread over.

The second reason's more important. Something happened that I can't figure out how to interpret. =|

...

...

Also, how do you know Mer is the Doctor?

He didn't claim as much as I read.

That's suspicious you'd say so.

...

...
My next post was a

simple question about information that no one would of known from the information in front of them.

...

Looks more like an accusation to me. Oh, and also?

The cop would think of the other claimed PR as the doctor.

That was, you know, the entire point of my accusation. That cop-Dazzy would think of a softclaimed PR as the doctor. Saying it is suspicious is also incorrect, as the

scum

are not aware of what roles the town has at their disposal, so no scum-hunting could come from it.

Hmph, Mer has been more scummy than you though. Fakeclaiming before death and then saying he is a VT, ugh...

Also you didn't answer my "What the heck are you talking about" question, you know, the one that asks why, if you think I am trying to protect Mer because we are scumbuddies, that

you are only going to be looking into me if he turns out to be town.

Also, King.

The issue is that Mer claimed there were two

goons

, not simply scum. This is seen in his ISO 26, as pointed out in Mute's #310

Seemed like something quick I could clear up.

Oooooh. Yeah, that is really suspicious.


I just want to make it official here: I agree that Mer has to die, he has been far to scummy to let live. I have merely been apprehensive about it because

my other big scum read is Ghostlin

[/b], and there is no way both of them are scum.

Eh, seems my death is inevitable then. Just...don't let Ghostlin fool you, guys. And, I wish you good luck at lylo!

You're giving up at L-2?

I take it back. That's not scummy at all. *sarcasm*

Mute said he would hammer if he got to L-1, so he was essentially at L-1 at that point. The only reason Mer hasn't been hammered yet is that the mod hasn't made an official vote-count that says "L-1" on it.

BLAH NINJAD

This is post #368. This is after Ghost's supposed breadcrumbing in #361.
What I am having a hard time gathering is the bolded, specifically. The post where Ghost said he'd check King if Mer flipped town? #355.

It's the sequence of these events that has me so confounded. Ghost says he'll investigate King should Mer flip town. Ghost makes his breadcrumb that he's the cop ("S-C-U-M I A-M A-M C-O-P"). King then says he'll be investigated. Then the bold&underlined (which for whatever reason never bolded no matter how I tried in previewing this post time and again) portion comes into mind, in that King says Ghost's his top scum suspect..

For now while I try and organize what I do have in my post proper I wanted to say this. Right now Ghost I am having a hard time buying your claim. Something in my gut's telling me it isn't right, in that I feel it was a bit too orchestrated. I do not feel that your crumbing for clearing Charlie was efficient enough as you only do so after his mini-VCA and him arguing with Meran and his WIFOM-y arguments at that time. King's damning points are how he was posting in twilight-D1 about how he'll comment on something D2, which I've already posted about the folly in that. Then there's him applying pressure to Meran but not putting a vote down on him.. I don't know anymore.

For that reason I'm not comfortable yet to place a vote on either player. I feel that one of three scenarios are likely:
1) Ghost is scum.
2) King is scum.
3) BOTH are scum.
and in LyLo this isn't a good thing. Right now, however, I'm more leaning to #1, however, the margin between 1 and 2 isn't wide enough for me to be safe with voting Ghost or King yet.

[Mute]

I've said my peace really. My head can't make heads or tails of either Ghost or King. I can't believe Ghost's cop claim, it's just too well timed, and I can't accept King's innocence for the action's he's had over the course of the game. Ghost's claimed a PR though where King claimed VT.

Yeah townie's really don't have much to fear in death, in that so long as all scum is lynched they will win with the town. (This is in response to Ghost's comment.) But if a townie has something that can implicate a scum, or draw one out, then there'd be a reason for them to want to stay alive. Does this clear King? No.
Really that's all I've got to say. My mind can't make itself up.

[Mute]

It is.

Vote Ghostlin

[Mute]

Good game everyone.

And ghostlin... 1024 says hi.

[Mute]

Your first time as IC? My only comment is entirely gameplay-related: pick a better RQS question that isn't blatantly scummy in it's entirety. That aside you did a good job as IC I feel.

[Mute]

'course this is from the perspective that, had you not been confirmed townie from the cop, you'd certainly have that as heavy evidence against you later on if scum bussed you.

[Mute]

Dazzy, take it from Charlie. Look back and notice how he once referred to me as "pro-town," and later saying he had a "gut feeling" about me. 7 times outta 10, your gut knows what it's talking about.

[Mute]

Ghostlin now that the game is over I'd like to ask you about that so-called "sub-optimal" scum play. =P

[Mute]

I'm betting king and mute are scum. King is scum for sure.

Le gasp! Looks like we made the right kill-choice then.

Surprisingly.
The moment Ghost revealed himself I was hitting myself on the head with "FUCK WE SHOULD HAVE KILLED GHOST!"

General comments to come next.

[Mute]

Yeah, I gotta say the instant I saw Ghostlin out his role I was nervous as all hell.
King, I doubt that, in your shoes, I could have succeeded in getting town to lynch the claimed cop. Ghost's play up to was helpful in pushing for his lynch but your play was the icing on the cake. Think you've got a firm handle on how to play scum, and wouldn't mind playing with you again.

Ghost, all joshing aside, you were excellent. You played strong and you played your role to the best of your ability. As an SE you were good as well in educating the other players about various terminologies that I did not, and played your role strongly.

Forseti and TClaw: sorry guys. You were good town players, and looking back I am still not certain that we should have killed you TClaw, because of your reads. It was a challenge for king to push ghost's wagon, and I still feel that if he had died and his investigations gone with him pushing for the mislynch might have been better/easier, but you did correctly call both of us in the deadQT, so good work there.

Spoon & Meran: Hopefully you'll have learned from this game about town-play. Spoon, be more careful with your D1 play is the advice I can offer you. Don't talk less, I should also ass, since I remember you bringing that up. Remember however, quality > quantity.

Charlie: I stand by what I said about a doctor being just as good an investigative role as the cop, albeit in a more indirect way. You did well as an IC I think, which is certainly something I can't ever see myself doing. Aside from that D1 question that's really all I've gotta add about your play.

T'was a fun game to be a part of.

[Mute]

Ghost that'd be awesome. =D

(hydra's though, how do they work?)

[Mute]

Sounds good to me Ghost. I agree with you in that I could never play a large game by myself, just too much to keep track of.

Charlie, I am not even kidding. The bathroom is my one place of mental clarity. I don't know what it is but I get my shit together in there (please pardon that incredibly bad pun ._.). The next best way for me to think is aimlessly driving around wherever.
I'd also like to say I still don't trust VCA's as much as I don't trust ISO's. With both, you lose the context leading up to them. Say a person flip-flops their vote around a lot before the mod vote-count? just looking at VCA's won't account for that. Same with ISO's in that a lot can be missed by others by reading a single person's posts. I find them to be buffers to a case, nothing more, and not enough to build a case out of alone, and as my last piece of advice to everyone as SE:
Build cases on evidence, then use VCA's and ISO's to add on to your cases. If you base your case on these, your arguments will be easily town apart, I feel.

[Mute]

I.. I actually didn't even notice that typo..
but yes, your arguments will be *torn apart. =x