Newbie 1072 - Game Over!

[Dazzy]

Hello everyone,

I'm Dazzy. This will be my first game online, only played a bit of irl Mafia.

I look forward to a good time playing with you all.

Para-quoting an... interesting video: When God gives you lemons, Find a new Ghostlin!

VOTE: Ghostlin

[Dazzy]

My thoughts on the gxw/TS issue:

Twisted, Charlie:

What's so scummy about the rapid voting/unvoting in RVS? (Random Voting Stage).

I find myself pondering the same thing as Ghost here. While I could see rapid voting/unvoting as scummy in certain contexts, I don't necessarily agree with it always being so. In this case, gxw's format on his first post was clearly random (note the alphabetical order - same as mod's list), and was done all at once. I don't personally see this as any more suspicious than filling your first post in RVS with nonsense - they both accomplish the same thing, which is to place a vote on someone.

In this case, gxw got an interesting response from his interesting post.

Double RVS-ing tends to be a solid scumtell, since there's no point to it. You RVS for pressure - why would you destroy reasonless pressure on one person to push reasonless pressure on another?

In response to the above, I fail to see how in the instant it takes one to read the vote/unvote of themselves they feel "pressure".

TS follows by saying that he won't vote gxw on his "very scummy behaviour" because it's a newbie game. However, he's just told us that applying pressure through votes is important when you feel someone is scum. Shouldn't newbies be shown that someone should be pressured based on a scummy post? While I'll acknowledge that an HoS is taking some action, at this point it has almost no weight to it when 5

votes

are needed to lynch. Maybe this is TS's attempt to avoid a direct OMGUS vote and therefore appear scummy himself while still shifting suspicion?

I don't know. Something in TS's reaction to gxw's single random vote, and his unwillingness to actually apply pressure to someone he feels is scummy rubs me the wrong way. Too much scum-calling and reacting with no pressure vote.

2.It seems to me that you are trying to defend yourself even when there is no pressure on you by saying that my post "completely denies the point of RVS". Therefore, apparently, my vote is completely pointless and no one should wagon you. To me, this comes across again as "reacting badly" and, according to your logic, you are scum.

I loosely agree with this.

So:

Unvote ; Vote: TwistedSpoon

Also:

Wow, already declaring town and scum tells on the first page? Thats fast.

Worried?

[Dazzy]

So, going back over TS's posts, I've noticed several things which stand out as being small scum-tells, at least for me.

1) The initial over-reaction and subsequent semi-OMGUS HoS (see my previous post for a sub-par analysis on that lol).

2) The waffling on gxw's scumminess/vote since that time. TS has:
HoS-ed with what I see as an over-reaction/OMGUS he claims is based purely on theory which didn't really apply in context
Voted when asked to put his vote where his mouth is (not explicitly)
Unvoted soon after

We've been discussing the value of votes, and TS has been an advocate of their power, which is why I find his waffling strange. Of course, it's completely reasonable to take your vote off of someone you no longer find suspicious/scummy. But then:

3)I've seen no scum-hunting by him beyond his initial "attack" (I use this term loosely) on gxw's RVS. Lots of defending himself, which is reasonable, but no really valuable work done imho.

@TS, since you no longer seem to feel gxw to be the scummiest of players, can you tell us who you

would

like to vote for, and why?

@ Charlie

I find your question to be a bit loaded. Giving my deep reaction to my role PM would most likely be as good as a role claim to an experienced player, and so I will not go any further than to say that I was genuinely excited to begin my first game of Mafia. Hopefully this game will continue to get more interesting as more people post their own thoughts.

Regarding time zones, I am EST myself, which I believe is -5 GMT. My posting habits will be somewhat haphazard, however, as I am frequently up late, and will do my best to check this game whenever I can.

This concludes my thoughts so far, hopefully I'll have more material to post on tonight.

Cheers

[Dazzy]

Just wanted to address a couple of things before bed.

@TS, since you no longer seem to feel gxw to be the scummiest of players, can you tell us who you

would

like to vote for, and why?

Woah, where did this come from?

one step at a time mate.
When did i say this?

This comment was based on what I suspect is a difference in our playstyles. I made this assertion in the mindset that my vote will almost always be on the person I find scummiest. I made an assumption which was apparently wrong.

Also, I haven't done too much scumhunting in your opinion because we're on page 2 still, however I'm pleased with my contribution so far.
Maybe when you guys give me some breathing space and stop being at my neck I can get to some scumhunting.

This is a very valid point and I actually want to apologise for calling you on a non-issue like that. I guess the transition from reading a full game at once to having to wait for stuff to happen was a bit bigger than I expected. My over-zealousness is something that will most likely continue throughout the game . Page two is nowhere to start saying an active player hasn't done anything.

I've admitted these points because I feel they have been legitimately matched by TS, and admitting my mistakes is something that I will also try to do. However, TS is still the most suspicious of the lot (if only for lack of much activity so far), so my vote stands for now.

And i think it's in the best interests of the town to leave RVS ASAP

I agree that your involvement in taking the first step out of RVS is great for the purpose of getting the game moving...

...
I WAS intrigued by the fact that he says he aimed to use it to reaction-fish though. I've never seen anyone do something like that as anything more than a joke, personally. Curious to know how others see that, because I've always treated RVS as a fluid phase that generally get ended by accident, and in general have never been fond of seeing it forced to an end artificially, particularly not at a point where very few others had checked in at all.
...

...
I see that as a bit scummy, forcing RVS to end by making a "trap" like that in order to attack the first person who questions it isn't very townie play. Townies would just wait for somebody to mess up all on their own from the pressure instead of trying to pull a bizzare gambit thingy to end RVS faster.
...

We've got some differing opinions here. From what I've seen, the general consensus is that it is better for the town that discussion is not delayed needlessly. I feel that the RVS can be useful, but I also think that anything that can get us moving in a meaningful direction is better than "Lol votez on u!". In this case, I would say that while gxw's "trap" could have been better timed (ie when more people had checked in), it was a legitimate attempt to get discussion going which would appear to have succeeded. King, you mention that town should wait for someone to mess up all on their own from the "pressure", but I'm curious as to how any

real

pressure is created without plays along the lines of that used by gxw. RV's are just that, random and meaningless (for the most part).

@Forseti: Would you have preferred a longer RVS in this case? Do you feel that gxw's action has got conversation going as well as a "natural" exit from RVS would?

@King: How would you prefer to create pressure on the mafia (not a random player), rather than a play designed to catch scum?

[Dazzy]

Hello everyone, just jumping in here before my math test to adress TS's last post, felt important.

my active self is clearly being suspiciously over-active. Do you guys want me to be less active? that seems oddly anti-town though

I never said that your activity made you suspicious. In fact, it's a large part of what is lessening my suspicion on you. Please don't slow down.

I'll cool off for a bit and let you guys catch up, but you guys seriously need to find other alternatives to my self because you're all tunneling right now, and once you've realised this mistake you'll be left with no alternate suspects.

I reiterate: don't slow down -

help

us find alternatives to our "tunneling" so that we will have alternate suspects if/when we drop you as suspect. That to me is the most pro-town thing you could do.

I'll be back after my test with analysis on some of the other posts. Just wanted to jump in on that post. Wish me luck

[Dazzy]

Hello again everyone. The math test is over, and it did not go well... I really dislike roots and trig, and I especially dislike it when I can't remember which roots are trig in disguise. Then I have to integrate them... Bleh. Anywho, onto something more interesting than my epic fails.

FoS'ing isn't a scumtell, but Double RVS voting is.

Mmm, I don't agree with this and you've said things which you cannot prove, like "you're almost certain". Anyway, the whole post strikes me a bit odd. Call it gut if you will, but I believe this is deserving of a vote.
VOTE: Twistedspoon

This is L-2. That's 2 more votes to lynch, so be careful when placing new votes on him. A premature lynch does not benefit anyone but Mafia.

@ Charlie: Do you realise that your entire case (if you can call it that) against TS is contained in those ~3 lines above? Nowhere else have you expressed any suspicion of him in this thread. I find it extremely odd that an IC who says

...
I'm the kind of player who'll much prefer a "wait and see" approach before forming an opinion. It's a playstyle that some aren't comfortable with, but it works pretty okay for me.
...

Would jump to voting on a gut feeling almost two days after the post in question (where the quote in your above post was taken from). Does a disagreement on scumtell interpretation necessitate a vote from you? Also, you are somewhat misquoting TS, possibly in an attempt to add a smidgen of basis to your vote. He said that the town was "almost certain" that a player

in another game he was playing

was scum based on a multi-RVS.

Add to that what appears to be a pretty solid attempt at role-fishing with your question to me, and your repeated "no win" questions, and I'm getting a bit of a scummy read on you.

Not liking the wagon on TS at all. His early game behavior was over eager to say the least but it felt town motivated.

Vote: Charlie

Scum over-inflating a weak issue, and I don't like this question of your's Charlie.

@Dazzy: Random question for you; how did you feel when you got your Role PM?

...
Charlie what was the purpose of that question? I can't see a town-motivation for asking how someone felt about their role.

...
I don't like this question and I just got it pointed out to me. This seems borderline role fishing: because while people are usually excited for game start, certain roles pique interest more than others.
...

This might be an OK baited scum hunting question: but it might hide a bus underneath it, or very least a wagon. It's sufficiently loaded so regardless of the response, the person who answers it looks scummy. Also, the only one who knows about any contents of the Scum QT...is scum.

Explain the purpose of these questions, please. Let me give you some incentive to do so.

Vote: Charlie

Obviously the more experienced SE's seem to be thinking along the same lines as me...

This is L-2. That's 2 more votes to lynch, so be careful when placing new votes on him. A premature lynch does not benefit anyone but Mafia.

What the heck is this? How can you promote a cautious approach to someone you just recklessly voted on?

Your last post as a whole seems to me like a scum bandwagoning and then trying to cover it with some IC pro-town advice. Can you give us a bit more substance on your vote please?

What does everyone else think, not only of Charlie/TS, but in general? Moar opinions please

[Dazzy]

EBWOP: The post of TS's Charlie referred to was only 1 day before his post. Apologies.

[Dazzy]

Hello again everyone. Apologies for the posting gap.

...
Oh, and also...

Vote: Dazzy

Wiith Charlie at L-2, he basically threw up a post (#60) that read to ME like he wanted to throw more weight at the pressure on Charlie (who at this time was L-2) without ACTUALLY voting or even referencing the possiblity of voting, not to mention the way he backed up part of it by referencing how the SE players saw things the way he did. They both voted for Charlie, Dazzy did not, mixing a little buddying in there along with trying to push a Charlie lynch along while maintaining the ability to say he didn't vote for the guy were he to flip town.
...

Forseti: It is true. I wanted to put some pressure on Charlie with that post. I had noticed some suspicious behaviour, and wanted him to clarify his position, and account for his actions. I did not back up that suspicion with a vote because, as I've said before, I will tend to almost always leave my vote on the person I find

most

suspicious. At that point, Charlie's behaviour was something that stood out, but was not worth voting on (at that point) in my eyes because I wanted him to give some clarification first.

I'll admit that quoting the SE's might have been over-doing it in this case, but I have said before that I can be over-zealous, and I really wanted some answers. Nubby? Yes. Apologies. Buddying? I don't think so.

The purpose of that post was to further encourage Charlie to answer the questions posed to him, so that I could get a better read. After his last post, I would be comfortable voting on him if he were not at L-1. You will notice that Charlie's response to my questions

and the 3rd/4th votes against him

have all been made since my last chance to post. It has been stated numerous times that we should wait for him to answer our questions properly, and that is what I was (and still am) hoping he will do. The quality of his answers will dictate a re-evaluation of my position on him.

As an aside, Charlie was at L-3 when I made my post. Only Ghostlin and Mute had voted on him at that point.

To "walk my talk" in regards to having my vote on my prime suspect:

UNVOTE:

TS has given some good responses to my issues with his play, and been fairly active. He takes a #2 spot in my scumlist for now.

Does that clear things up at all?

@ Ghostlin: Are you still comfortable with your vote on Charlie, given that he is at L-1? You initially said that your vote was incentive to have your questions answered, has it become a solid suspicion now?

@ Farmer: You say that King is "Clearly scum". Do you have any other points besides his apparent confusion on vote status that can support that claim? Care to share?

@ Twisted:

Yes, quickhammering is usually a bad thing to do, but it's so tempting and is always worth it if the player flips scum. Charlie's question-doging leads me to believe

he may be

I probably

wouldn't be able to resist hammering

if I had the chance to right now. Good thing I'm not in that position then.

Something a bit off in here...

Your approach to the value of votes implies to me that the lynch of someone would be a matter of some thought. Why are you so eager to hammer someone who "may be" scum before he has mounted a

proper

defense? Seems a little out of character... ISGMEOY (S = Still )

That's all for now my friends. See you tomorrow.

Cheers.

[Dazzy]

Wow, lots of stuff going on since my last post. We have Charli giving us some responses, Forseti fighting against what he feel is a mis-lynch, and TS going freaking insane.

This post will not be completely comprehensive, I'd like to take a bit of time to organise my thoughts, but lets start with some basics.

@TS, I was actually feeling a lot better about your alignment, but now you've just thrown me off again. Your intense flailing and "100% sure" accusations are really not giving me a town read on you.

@ Forseti: Your suspicion is noted, and at this point all I can really do is reiterate what I said before: I leave my vote on the person I find most suspicious. At that point it was TS, but Charlie raied some flags. I asked Charlie questions, which would determine whether I would switch my vote. He answered poorly, others voted where I would have if given the chance, I do not want to hammer him at this point. Take from this what you will.

On that note: @ Charlie, my vote on TS was not a random one. You'll note that I developed a case on him and subsequently voted based on those points. He remained my #1 scum until your question dodging post. Now, in regards to your post. You've made a decent response, but I have a question. You've said that your questions have provided you with information that "exceeded expectations". Mind sharing what that information is with the rest of us? You're taking what I'd like to call the Jedi approach: "Trust me, I'm a good guy with a plan. You can know about the results whenever I decide I feel like it." Don't appreciate that.

As a last note, WTF is going on with all of these people screwing up vote counts...

Be back later. Let's avoid hammering anyone right now.

Cheers.

[Dazzy]

Hey all,

RL is getting the best of me this weekend, and so I will not be able to post a nice analysis tonight. I will also be unable to post until tomorrow evening, and even then will not have much time to devote to the game.

I would also like to see Charlie post again with the results of his reaction fishing questions, and get some more substance from gxw on his position to further contribute to my reads before fulfilling your request Ghost.

to be explicit:
@ gxw: you've said that you would consider hammering either Charlie or TS. Can we get some substance on this please? Explain your suspicions, as we haven't received much input from you since the initial you/TS debate.

Apologies for the delay, can't be helped atm.

Good night.

@ Mod: Can we get a vote count please? Official = best

P-Edit (That means preview edit right?) : Lol at farmer fulfilling two mafia roles irl - Mason and Doc. Nice.

[Dazzy]

*sigh* What a long freaking day...

This post will contain my fairly basic summary of my thoughts so far, I really don't have the energy to make an intensely detailed post, and frankly I don't feel like

much

very interesting stuff has happened in the past day or so. Still some though.

Charlie: Still far too ambiguous for my liking. His inactivity, though explained, in inconvenient in that there are still several outstanding questions that poeple have yet to receive answers for. He has told us he had a plan which worked in his eyes, but nothing more, which makes me either believe it was a weak cover for his mistakes, or he just doesn't feel like telling us. Neither leave me with a favourable impression. Null-scum read. His meh answers have relieved my suspicion enough that I'm comfortable with not voting on him as of now, atleast until we get more of an explanation.

Dazzy: Noob. Don't like him...

Farmer: Not a lot to go on in my view. A small point of contention I have with him is his vote on King, which was based on what I saw as a misunderstanding of the vote status. He also said that King was "clearly scum" in his ISO #3, and then in #6 downgrades that to "a hint of scuminess".

Very

weak scum read.

Forseti: A very enthusiastic defender of Charlie. What this means as of yet, I'm not one hundred percent sure, but I get the impression he really was just trying to stop what he thought was a mis-lynch. On that note, Forseti, If Charlie flips scum, I'll have my eye one you! . Null-town read so far.

Ghost*: A lot of theory/game-advice, but when he posts content its solid stuff. The help is appreciated. Good questions which have promoted discussion, and just an overall town-null read.

GXW: Huh. Not any content to speak of since his incident with TS except hammer-threats. I don't like this behaviour, as he has not contributed anything to the discussion but his willingness to end day one in a very quick fashion, and calls for claims. Null-scum read.

King: He seems to play very emotionally, which also somewhat explains some of the points made against him about his willingness to lynch TS. Nothing really stands out, so I'm just gonna say null read atm.

Mute*: Fairly quiet, with longer posts containing reasonable points. Null-town read.

Twisted: Oh dear.

Twisted started this game with what I saw as scummy behaviour, prompting my vote on him. Since then he has become ever more erratic, making it very difficult to pin down his motivations. His entire Forseti crusade, which could have actually been a more interesting topic, lost 85% of its meaning after the third post or so.

I hope this isn't out of line, but besides adding a bit more scumminess to what is below, it's basically my impression of him.

...

VI:

Village Idiot, a player that plays poorly or does stupid things during a game. These players are dangerous because often times scum can affect this and town will mislynch them, or if they don't, they hang around later and are dangerous in endgame.
...

Scum-null read.

---------------------------------

* This basically is me reminding myself and everyone else that these two are the SE's, meaning they both have more experience than me and several others. In light of this, they could very well be scum disguising themselves quite effectively. We would all do well to keep a particularly close eye on them in the coming days.

I feel like entirely too much effort was spent on TS's "case" on Forseti. This may be my subconscious talking, but I found it strange just how much emphasis was put on it, both by TS and King (who quoted all mentionings of it despite TS's admission that he was wrong. My gut/intuition says it was simply an angry "In your face" post, but I could be wrong). Does it mean anything necessarily? Not really. Like I said, probably me over-reacting to seing my name so many times lol.

Before I leave, I'd just like to summarise some of my unanswered questions for convenience's sake:

@ Charlie: Can we please have the results of your supposedly successful reaction-fishing? Seems a little scummy keeping (possibly fabricated ) information such as that from us.

Also (kinda new, wasn't explicitly asked before): The most solid point you presented against TS in your initial vote post was a disagreement on scumtells. Why is a difference in opinion a reason to vote?

@ gxw: Substantiate yourself damnit. Your active lurking/hammer-threats are not helpful in the slightest.

@ Farmer: Can you explain your change in language severity please?


That's all folks. I'm gonna make it official so that I won't distract myself by feeling obligated to post when I should be studying like crazy tomorrow. I have a very important test on Tuesday night so:

@ Mod, I will be V/LA until Tuesday night.

Hopefully in that time some of the group's outstanding questions will be answered. Sorry guys.

I will talk to you all then. Cheers.

[Dazzy]

Apologies for the absence. Still not a lot of activity since I've been gone, but I will post my thoughts as soon as they're organised a bit.

[Dazzy]

Hello everyone,

A hearty welcome to our replacements, hopefully you can help us get this game going again. A combination of being exceptionally busy (even for me) and not having much to go on lately has left me without much reason to post, and made the game less of a priority. Hopefully with this new life I'll be a bit more motivated.

tc already kinda gave his input on the Charlie issue, @ Mer I'm curious as to your thoughts on it. It seems that we've decided that TS is town, though i have to say I'm not comfortable with that. His play has been very scummy, and I have a theory I'd like to propose. It is a lot of speculation, but makes sense to me.

Consider this: Charlie and TS as scumbuddies.

Quick chronology:

During the TS/gxw issue, Charlie asks some "reaction-fishing" questions.
Charlie comes under fire for these questions, and is pushed to L-1.
TS begins pushing Forseti HARD, using somewhat irrational arguments. He is "rushing" a case.
TS's flailing leads to several hammer threats.
Charlie unvotes. He is the first to call TS new town rather than scum.
Two posts later, TS unvotes Charlie.
Everyone seems to accept

Charlie's

explanation for TS's behaviour, and suddenly forgets all of their points against him.

While I have noted that each of these players voted for the other, it is worth noting that Charlie gave his vote on TS no substance, said that it meant basically nothing, and stated outright that he would retract his vote if TS went to L-1.

It's hard for me to articulate exactly what it is, but to me it seems like the timings are just a bit too nice, and i can easily picture the roles. Charlie is the leader. If you look at some of his ISO's, you'll see a lot of advice going out to TS in terms of how to avoid looking scummy. TS creates a non-case to draw attention when Charlie gets some pressure, Charlie calls TS new town to explain away his actions. Seems team-worky to me.

My evaluation of you is a VT forced to claim at L-1 and you've decided to make the most of it. Think about it, you're now in a much stronger position than you were before. Now, I recommend going back to scumhunting.
...

... yeah. Case in point. Advice and cover for TS, all in one nice little package.

If you guys would like more substance, I can do so, but I want to know if this is a completely irrational thought process beforehand, don't want to create a case just to have someone see a gigantic hole in it that I'm too close to see.

On that note,

VOTE: TwistedSpoon

I've said before that I will vote for who I see as scummiest. I feel that TS never really accounted for his actions in a concrete fashion, and that we all let Charlie's explanation for him cloud our vision. I also find his complete about-face quite disturbing. That is:

VI? that's just mean; I merely tested out a new way of presenting my suspicions in a newbie game.

You'll see when the game ends and my suspects flip scum

...

UNVOTE: Charlie
I don't know anything anymore
...

These two posts came directly after one another in ISO... The second was, as I said before, only 2 posts after Charlie unvoted TS.

Another, more recent issue is his vote on Forseti. Voting someone because they haven't been around much helps us in no way. How can we expect reactions from an inactive player? I feel like TS may be trying to start something on what he feels is an easy target. It's worth noting that three pages ago TS was also 100% sure that Forseti was scum but now has only "a gut feeling".

What are your thoughts everyone?

@ TS: Why did you suddenly go from 100% Charlie is scum to "not knowing anything"? Same for Forseti.

@ Charlie: Do you mind giving us your complete scum reads? I'd like some concrete results from your "successful gambit" in which you made yourself look like mafia "intentionally". How have those results affected your reads?

[Dazzy]

Hey all,

@ Ghostlin: yeah, I know that it's a bit early for pairs, but something was nagging at me and when I figured out what it was I felt that it should be shared. Thank you for the advice.

Basically, we've had two real wagons on D1 so far. Both have been started because of scummy behaviour which hasn't been (imo) satisfactorily explained. RVS and the subsequent time is all about making people slip up, is it not? We've had two people slip up, they seem to be supporting each other. Thus my case. [BTW this isn't all directed at you Ghost, just a broad address]

King, I like your suspicion of TS, and it actually helped me hammer out my thoughts on him. A big part of it was realising you were still suspicious because you still had unanswered questions. Big townie points for sticking with it and contributing.

That's all for tonight. I've got a busy week ahead, but will check in/post whenever possible.

Cheers,

Dazzy

[Dazzy]

*Whistles*

Well that was interesting. Go away, come back the next day to find three new pages of posts and a lynch.

So. Should we bother talking about why Forseti was chosen or will that just lead us into WIFOM territory? (Actual question. How valid is post-NK analysis at this point?)

...
KingTwelveSixteen gets a facepalm for assuming that he'll be around on D2 to comment.

lol.

But yeah, now that you have survived King, care to share?

Mer...
Yes somewhat scummy play, but just a bit too unorganised for mafia imo. The doc claim puts a whole nother spin on things. I agree with TS here:

In short, yes, I was at risk. But the good part (for you at least) is that, given my self endangerment, I can now scumhunt and vote without consequence!

no, you'll probably get nightkilled unless the mafia have an RB or wish to play Wifom

and what do you mean without consequence? We don't know for sure you're not mafioso, 'twas just too risky for you to be today's kill

and L-2 is nothing. L-1 + announced intention to hammer is when a claim should be made

you were safe from the hammer, at least whilst I lived

.

Mer made what I see as a new-player mistake with his early claim and his other statements about certain things. Whether these were new-town or new-scum mistakes, I haven't decided yet. While it's true that him being alive is cause for suspicion, TS is right in that it could just be a huge WIFOM play by the mafia, or they have an RB and so are free to kill more town players (keeping in mind that Mer has suspicion on him right now). By not killing him, they cause more suspicion on someone they know is town, and maybe get a mislynch. (I just realised that everyone probably already knows all this stuff I just typed... yay for thinking through typing.)

@Charlie: why Mute?

@Mute: Do you mind elaborating on Mer's scumminess? You seem quite convinced and I obviously don't see what you do to the same extent.

@ Mer: Who did you protect last night and why?

In summary, seems a bit dangerous to tunnel on someone who may be a PR side for our side rather than general scumhunting. On that note, I find it interesting that Charlie initiated a wagon on someone who is not necessarily mafia just because he is alive. Gonna wait for more reactions, and King's promised input.

Happy St. Patty's everyone.

[Dazzy]

EBWOP: Hopefully it's still St. Patty's somewhere lol. 12:52 here XD

[Dazzy]

EBWOP: wow sorry. misread, don't mean to misrep Charlie. Mute is the one who stated part of his reason for voting was that Mer was still alive. My bad.

On a random note, my shift key is being annoying, so my posts may be missing the occasional cap...

[Dazzy]

@Dazzy: Don't head into NK terrority yet, full of WIFOM. Also, how do you know Mer is the Doctor? He didn't claim as much as I read. That's suspicious you'd say so. Also, Mute's on the right track with his suspicions with Mer.
...

Wow you're right. I let my interpretation of his softclaim get the better of my sense I guess. My only defense there is that I'm zombie-state tired I guess. And I don't "know" Mer is the doctor, like I said, made assumptions, and I apologise.

@ Mute, thanks for clarifying. I can definitely see where you guys are coming from now.

I'm going to bed before I start screwing up even more stuff. Sorry for the fails tonight lol. I'll try to be more alert next time.

Cheers.

[Dazzy]

Ok, I owe you all some explaining, considering this is the first time in two days I've been at even a decent level of functioning, now's probably the best time.

First: The reason I have been so sporadic is that I am/was in a musical. The last three nights have been our performances. The entire week beforehand was rehearsal from 4:30 until 12. I was dead tired, stressed out of my mind, and had too much backed up work to truly devote myself to this game. I apologise. I did not replace out because I do feel I can still have a positive impact on this game.

The musical is over, so now I can give the game more attention.

My previous posts in D2, well shit. I cringed myself the next day when I reread. Ghost is entirely right in that I assumed that Mer had claimed a role he really hadn't. It was a stupid, tired post made based on my interpretation of his soft-claim ("keeping his hands clean" is inherently doctorish to me).

I want to make it clear right now that I AM NOT A COP. I don't want anyone under this false impression, because it will hurt town in the end.

Ghost, can you define "slipped"?

Anyways, this is all I really have time for atm. With musical over I will be back to a regular posting schedule hopefully starting tomorrow night. I know this post lacks anything useful, and I promise to do a full analysis at my first chance. Let me just say for now that I'm still not 100% comfortable with the Mer lynch, and it's because I feel that it's based on theory and the possiblilities his play represents. I am ok with him being the choice today, but only ok. Atleast until I do a full read...

I apologise for the semi-lurking, but it couldn't really be helped at the time.

Talk to you all soon.

Cheers.

[Dazzy]

Also, King.

The issue is that Mer claimed there were two

goons

, not simply scum. This is seen in his ISO 26, as pointed out in Mute's #310

Seemed like something quick I could clear up.

[Dazzy]

Ah 'tis good to be back. Y'know, minus the bodies and such...

Mass claim eh? An interesting idea. I'll give my somewhat-reluctant approval, mainly because I have my own thoughts on the topic and I'm not sure I understand the strategic benefit of it for town.
[In terms of the "who's most scummy" part, is this where we make cases, or do we all just blurt out a name?]

Either way, I'll take the time we spend deciding to do a reread.

[Dazzy]

Alrighty then.

I'm for it. Nomination incoming.

[Dazzy]

This has been a very strange game compared to those I've read. Lots of crazy people lol.

I nominate Ghostlin to go first.

[Dazzy]

Just wanted to say I'm here. Adjusting reads and waiting for rest of claims before giving input.

[Dazzy]

I guess we're almost done. This next claim will possibly confirm a suspicion I've been having lately. Won't say what it is yet.

Seeing as we're not done with claims yet, I don't think you guys should be giving out too much info and getting all hyped up, we can still learn from these claims, and more content means more clues for scum on what they should say.

Charlie, you're up my friend.

My day has been pleasant, but now I just want these claims over and done with, and it's upsetting me. Excitement is not something I generally handle well lol. Don't keep me waiting =).

[Dazzy]

EBWOP: I was following a train of thought from before Mute's post in terms of the giving scum clues thing. This statement is not me calling Charlie scum. Or myself... I told you guys I'm stressed.

[Dazzy]

Claim: VT

Post coming asap.

[Dazzy]

It's coming, it's a big-un where I've been organising my thoughts.

Hopefully coherently...

[Dazzy]

I

guess we're almost done. This next claim will possibly confirm a suspicion I've been having lately. Won't say what it is yet.

Seeing

as we're not done with claims yet, I don't think you guys should be giving out too much info and getting all hyped up, we can still learn from these claims, and more content means more clues for scum on what they should say.

Charlie

, you're up my friend.

M

y day has been pleasant, but now I just want these claims over and done with, and it's upsetting me.

E

xcitement is not something I generally handle well lol.

D

on't keep me waiting =).

So. What does this all mean?

The way I see it, there are a few scenarios. I'll go through each and discuss.

1)Ghostlin and Charlie are scum:
If this is the scenario, then these guys have been planning this basically from Night 0. Their claims match up nicely, and reading Ghost's claim you'll notice that he's very careful to not say outright that Charlie is a "townie", but rather town-aligned or innocent, implying he knew what Charlie was going to claim. Maybe Charlie's role was obvious to you guys... I didn't really figure it out until today, based on some recent things.

My big problem: Most of the scummy notes I made on them in ISO can be at least partly explained by their roles and trying to stay alive.

2) Ghost is lying scum, Charlie is innocent (Was possibly read by Ghost):
I've been leaning for Charlie as town for a little while. On the other hand, Ghost has been leaning scum for a while.
Its entirely possible that Ghost figured out Charlie was Doc, and chose to claim cop. He had a 50-50 chance of being counter-claimed in either scumteam composition, but if he was confident in his reads and his ability to counter anyone, he could claim freely and worry about the consequences (if any) later.

2a) Mute Scumbuddy:
Ghost claimed quite early (and maybe numerous times) that he thinks Mute is town. Mute and Ghost have been acting fairly close all game. Numerous friendly or semi-personal comments, consistently supporting each other's thoughts. They teamed up several times, ie Charlie and Mer (Big time).

2b) King Scumbuddy:
Lately King and Ghost have been (seemingly) at each other's throats. Possible distancing in preparation for a bus which would solidify Ghost as town long enough for scum to win. Beforehand, not seeing much interaction. Will take another look perhaps.

3) Ghost is telling the truth, Mute and King are scum:

In summary, I'm doubting Ghost's claim. The whole Meransiel debacle really left a bad taste in my mouth with him and Mute, and the last little bit I've been seriously doubting his town-ness. The claim (in a mass-claim he proposed) was an easy option for creating dissent, as he's been doing all game.

I would say I am comfortable with Charlie's claim at this point in time.

Most likely scenario in my mind is Ghost/Mute, but my gut doesn't completely agree yet.

@ Charlie: What do you think of Ghost's claim?

@ Ghost: In your opinion, why would a claimed PR not be killed by the Mafia? (In general. I'd really appreciate it if you would avoid using very specific examples from this game).

@ Mute: After Mer's flip, do you still feel your arguments against him were valid? What is your opinion on Ghost's claim?

Hopefully this made sense for the most part. Please ask questions or for clarification if you would like it, I'll do my best to provide. Holding off on the vote for obvious reasons, waiting for more input.

Also, this is an edited version of this post because I felt the first draft was verging on tl;dr. It's still long, but alot of my notes have been removed for convenience, and to keep some of my cards to myself for now. I can bring some of it back if anyone is really interested in a section.

[Dazzy]

Another quick question:

@ Charlie: You never clarified this as far as I saw (sorry if you did), but why was it clear to you that Tclawren and Ghost could not both be scum?

[Dazzy]

...
I'd say Dazzy because you agreed with the thought there was worse thing Dazzy could of done than hammer in agreement with me earlier during Day 1
...

Ghost, can you clarify what you mean here please? I can't tell if you're accusing me of something or not, and would like to understand this part of your argument as it relates to King.

[Dazzy]

Ghost I actually tried to read your post at first and gave myself a headache lol.

I didn't realise this at first but Charlie is right, there really is no hurry at this point. A hasty, misplaced vote could (will) end the game. One of Ghost or King are scum, that is certain (or both). We have a bit under three weeks to decide who it is (though it would be nice if it was shorter - moar scumslips plz =D). Gonna run down some ideas, put some stuff together, hopefully post tonight (unless I get drunk... ). Otherwise I'll have something up tomorrow.

Cheers boys.

[Dazzy]

It's very difficult to make an argument based on such emotional writing. At the moment, you two are trying to convince

eachother

that the other person is scummy... In the future I'd really appreciate it if you guys could avoid "yelling" at eachother and instead be a bit more calm in presenting your arguments, and direct your arguments towards us like lawyers might (no need to call me "your honour" lol). Calling eachother WIFOM-y back and forth does nothing for us third-partyers, and frankly is making me less open to reading said arguments.

Ghost, you said that you were preparing a full case on King, I feel like that will be a lot more productive than this current state of affairs.

Charlie, you've promised us a VCA, that would be nice to see as well as your general thoughts.

King, instead of arguing back and forth, make a summary of your case on Ghostlin, in terms of the game as a whole.

Mute. As an experiment, I think it would be kind of cool to step back from your previous reads and make a case on Ghost. If you're up for that that is.

I plan to make a case for King. It's already in progress.

Basically, I'm sure there has been lots of nice info in the back-and-forth between Ghost and King, but it's very difficult to find and put together when it's so emotional and focused on the other's viewpoint.

Cases make it much easier to address points one by one, and see overall patterns. This is just my suggestion, but I think its solid.

At this point, my own reads are kind of muddled. Ghost is a good player who could be doing a pretty good job false-claiming, and King could be just as good at appearing town while really being scum. At this point either situation could be true (and possibly both ).

Cheers boys.

[Dazzy]

Just wanted to say thanks for being so awesome guys. This helps a lot, at least in my case.

You've both set out a lot of valid arguments. I'd like to take tonight to read over them and possibly get Charlie's VCA.

In terms of breadcrumbs, I don't personally put a lot of stock in them. If anything, I find them to be slightly scummy. Think about it, any scum can breadcrumb cop or doc, but a townie doing the same risks being discovered and NK'ed.

Anyone

can breadcrumb. Hell, if Ghost is scum I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there's a doc breadcrumb by him somewhere. If a mafia member plans ahead enough, they can breadcrumb and then refer back to it no matter what the situation. "Breadcrumb"s mean almost nothing to me. What matters are actions. So far Ghost's actions match up with his claim, which is either great mafia play or genuine cop-role. At this point I'm still not sure. All I'm saying is that a case/read cannot realistically be based on breadcrumbs.

I'm off for the night. Case on King and analysis of the two cases tomorrow. Charlie... I'd really like to see some input from you. We've had almost nothing since pre-Mer-lynch. You prompted me to post during the popcorn, but still haven't really posted yourself. Friendly poke =)

Goodnight boys.

[Dazzy]

Hey all, just thought I'd pop in to give my take on what's been said.

I have to agree with Charlie on his point that King has been on NO lynching wagons, while Mute has been jumping back and forth between the fastest growers all game. Ghostlin has also been on the two mis-lynch lists, which in my gut seems slightly off in terms of him being scum, as I would think scum to be a bit more careful. Of course, Mer DID give a pretty damn good excuse for Ghost to vote him. It's his reasoning before Mer revealed his fake-claim that sits poorly with me.

My case on King is stalled, I have a big test tomorrow, and I'm having some trouble finding stuff on him to be frank. Ghost, while I accept that sometimes the Mafia are not on the wagons of a mislynch, King being on none of them does say something.

On the other hand, King, who expressed his intense desire to lynch TS earlier in D1, is nowhere to be found on his lynch wagon. This VC summary has given me a couple of ideas, so I thank you for that Charlie.

Case on King will be up when it's up, can't really give a concrete time of completion atm.

Cheers.

[Dazzy]

Timestamp: Finished reading.

I read most, but not every word.
AtE is detected.
Feels like a courtroom, but in the end the defense of KingTwleveSixteen wins. Means that I think Ghostlin is lying, and this is me stating intention to vote him.
However, I first would like to hear from Mute and Dazzy.
Other than that, I'm done here.

I'm not perfectly comfortable with your voting yet. If Mute is scum, we guess wrong = quickhammer lose. As to your other assertion, while I do find Mute suspicious, I haven't ruled you out yet if Ghost is in fact scum. Some of your recent posts have left a bad taste in my mouth... Let's wait for Mute to get something in, and I'll have my case up tonight. I know I keep pushing it back but my last test of the year (before exams) is tonight, and another cumulative project was handed in today. I apologise, but simply not much time in the last few days. After my test tonight I plan to finish up and post ASAP.

Cheers for now.

[Dazzy]

My promised case on King is below. It's... pretty lame actually. I had a lot of trouble finding stuff to call him on that was specific. Call it confirmation bias or me being shitty or whatever, but I find myself understanding King's position in several cases. While several incidents do stand out, nothing strikes me as purely scum. He didn't have a whole lot of activity D2, but then neither did I. People get busy, and really, D2 was freaking short. Even using Ghost's case as inspiration, I found myself dismissing several of those contained arguments. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I believe King is town. Though it's possible this has been an epic bussing war, I don't think that very likely. Anyways, here it is, very simple because I don't feel like a lot more is necessary.

D1:
Says that he disapproves of tactics such as gxw's reaction fishing. Why town would disapprove of something meant to find scum...
Expresses suspicion of Charlie, but

no vote

. Later votes after vote count issue (L-1).
Unvotes, States intention to hammer TS based on quotes and not much else. Not a ton of original content at this point.

...
And, oh yeah? Rushing a lynch is scummy.

Who says I'm not gonna hammer you? I'm totally about to hammer you. Like, you have one more post to defend yourself before I hammer. The next step is likely for you to fail to defend yourself adequetly and then I hammer you.

Oh, and the reason I have switched from "I agree with no lynching immediatly" to "lynch TS" is because he ignored like 3/4 of my entire giant argument, then said that there was no Dazzy case to counter the other 1/4, which is a flat-out lie, and His explanations for "not looking back and checking" don't jive with me.
...

Interesting, rushing a lynch is scummy, but he will hammer TS after one more post - on page 5...

Claims ignorance on why his almost-lynch was improper. Seems like he's backpedalling here, but could just be self-conscious town.
Never goes back to voting TS, though expresses suspicions. Apparently Farmer/Mer > TS
Assumes he won't die.
Ends D1 with vote on Farmer(Mer) (OMGUS?)

D2:
Says he would vote Mer/agrees he has to die,

but doesn't actually vote

Effectively calls me (Dazzy) cop.
Twilight: Calls flip of Mer

D3:
Lots of fighting with Ghost. Hard to find stuff in here. Not sure I agree with Ghost's points here.

Summary/Bird's eye:
King has had irregular voting patterns, but has been on

neither

mislynch wagon. His near-hammer of TS was very awkward, but I've read King as very emotional all game. This continues that trend. Recent re-read didn't give me any real scum-gut feelings on him in terms of timing or theme. In terms of content... not a hell of a lot of scum stuff here that I can see.

Conclusion: King is town.
--------------------------------------------------

I'm very confident right now that Ghostlin is scum. Once Mute has given us a bit more content, I'd be comfortable placing my vote on him barring any new revelations.

I can give a more in-depth explanation of why I think Ghost is scum (this is not just POE) if someone would like that. I'll probably post it anyways sometime soon.

King:
Promotes discussion by bringing up interesting points
Very active, asks questions, uses actual evidence (ie quotes)
No Wagons
Gut

Ghost:
Asks directed questions which apply pressure
Active
Creates dissension, ie. Accuses three people in same posts of scummy stuff, asks others to comment on it.
"Shit disturbing"
Both mislynch wagons
All of D2... setup arguments don't sit right
D3 - Cop claim gives great excuse for scummy actions. Too great almost...

Based on the reading I've done lately, I have been slowly moving away from being comfortable with Charlie as town. As I said earlier, his and Ghost's claims match up

very

nicely. If Ghost is lying scum, that throws Charlie's alignment (something that my gut has been complaining about) back into question. Because I don't want to assume that I'll survive the night if Ghost's lynch is the right move, I plan to post a pseudo-case on why I find it likely that Charlie is Ghost's scumbuddy during D3 (today). In light of this, I'd appreciate it if no one would vote/lynch until that is posted. I will have a lot more time in the near future, so you guys shouldn't have to worry bout more delays.

A quick teaser - Assuming Ghostlin is NOT the cop, and Charlie is the Doc, the mafia cannot have an RB. Yet, Meransiel, a claimed PR, was not killed on N1... In the words of Ghost, when answering why a claimed PR would be left alive (I asked that question with this in mind): "Generally speaking: you either have a roleblocker, or the person claiming the role is scum. The other scenario of 'praying for a mislynch' is loaded with WIFOM, and most scumteams won't optimally go for it...". Meransiel was not scum. That means that there is (most likely) an RB. That's impossible IF CHARLIE IS THE DOCTOR.

Cheers.

[Dazzy]

Alright.

So I think I've heard enough, and I don't know that there's much more to be said at this point. I think we're still waiting for something from Mute, but barring any major revelations, this is me stating my intention to vote Ghostlin. If there are any objections, let me know and I'll consider them.

If everyone wants to post suspicions on potential scumbuddies before the lynch occurs, I think that would be prudent considering any one of us townies could die tonight.

Mine will be up shortly.

[Dazzy]

I'm aware of that Charlie. Are you trying to imply that lynching Ghost would not be lynching correctly? Because I seem to remember you stating your intention to vote him.

That post was made under the assumption that Ghost is scum, and the game will not end with his lynch. If he isn't then obviously nothing matters anymore. However, if Ghost is scum, then he has a partner, and one of the people who is not his partner will die tonight. I am proposing that we all put out there who we consider most likely to be Ghost's scumbuddy before N3 so that we don't have a situation where someone with valuable insight is unable to post it.

Not sure I see the motivation for your last line there. Maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say.

[Dazzy]

Unless this is supposed to be one of those situations where it's best to just withhold all info until the next day (like MyLo?)...

[Dazzy]

Whoa King don't start calling the game just yet. I'm definitely not set on Mute as scum. I'm working on something, it will go up before my vote for safety.

Why does everyone have to start acting weird AFTER I make up my mind...

[Dazzy]

The second underline is me saying that I've basically made my mind up to vote for Ghost today. I'm waiting for any possible input Mute might have.

The first is me saying that I haven't cleared Charlie as being scum. Mute is most likely at this point, but Charlie is not obvtown in my books. I'd say it still warrants a bit of discussion, tomorrow if not today.

My point is this: I'm almost definitely voting Ghostlin today. If I get NK'ed, I don't want you to assume that Mute is Ghost's buddy, simply because there are a lot of things that point to Charlie as well.

[Dazzy]

Alright.

Hopefully this isn't a mistake.

VOTE: Ghostlin

[Dazzy]

Well...

Yeah. @#$% lol.

Sorry Ghost. Good game to all. I learned a lot this game (hopefully), and hope to play with you guys again.

Looking forward to the post-game.

[Dazzy]

The stupid thing is that I actually had a moment just before I voted when I read a post of Ghostlin's and said "Wait a minute... He can't be scum!", and then dismissed it as him tricking me. ndfvlskdfnvlskdjsl.

[Dazzy]

Good game to all.

Grats on the win King and Mute, you played very well, and King you did a great job of misdirecting at LyLo.

I wanted to thank you all for this learning experience, especially those who gave me direct advice when I asked questions. I will put it all to good use in future games. I look forward to playing with you all again some time.

A big thank you to the Mod, Vel. Thanks for running this game.

Cheers!

P.S. Sorry again Ghost

[Dazzy]

Also, reading through the Mafia QT, I lol'd when I saw Mute say he wanted to take Ghost to endgame...

Good read TClaw =)