Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[ConSpiracy]

1st.

VOTE: xtoxm

How will I ever going to pronounce that?

[ConSpiracy]

Hi, everyone. Time for some obligatory opening questions--

1)

What time zone are you in?

2)

RVS or RQS? Why?

3)

What is your experience level with Mafia?

4)

How active can we expect you to be?

1) GMT +1
2) RVS, though I hate RVS a sole RQS doesn't work.
3) 5 games done, 4 ongoing (this one included)
4) Fairly active. I am not going to be prodded (or something in real life has to come up)

UNVOTE: Xtoxm
VOTE: Umbrage
So Umbrage, thoughts on people?

[ConSpiracy]

So Umbrage, thoughts on people?

Why me? As I said, I don't consider RVS means much in the way of scum versus town. I really don't think anyone can find scum on page one.

VOTE: ConSpiracy

You singled me out for a reason, but why would you ask for my thoughts when I said I find RVS meaningless?

Think further

OK, so my vote on ConSpiracy is about as serious as you can get for page 1 reads. Xtoxm stands out as odd to me, he didn't random vote, he didn't really say hello or anything, he just answered the questions. I'm not saying it's scum or town, it just looks odd.

Great, post. Are you going to point out things that are scummy or only things that you see as null?

Why is ConSpiracy asking you specifically a question a somewhat serious scumtell? What about it is more scummy than a person who is arguably not doing much to get the game out of RVS, and why point it out if it's not scummy?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Umbrage

Wait a minute. I wasn't doing much to get out of the RVS? That's not true.

Also, @ mod: Why aren't spoilers allowed? I use them once in a while and I can't see any harm in those

.

I think the point is to avoid having players trying to hide stuff from some people. It was in the ruleset that I plagiarized, and in most other rulesets that I know of.

[ConSpiracy]

@ Abelcain:

RVS, I don't really think it means much

I didn't answer the question because I don't like giving out opinions based on RVS stuff. I think ConSpiracy saw the above, and that's why he questioned me. Why else would he single me out?

Because you had two votes and nobody made the slightest attempt to get us out of the RVS. I thought I could do it, so bandwagon went up.

[ConSpiracy]

@Conspiracy--first, why the need to exit us out of RVS? Second, why the need to do so with an unexplained bandwagon vote?

The game was going nowhere for 12 posts already and I thought I could end the RVS to get the game going.

I almost forgot:

call me CS dammit!

Don't call me con, that's the lamest abb ever.

When I voted ConSpiracy, I made sure to let everyone know it was a serious vote. I was setting myself up as bait, and you bit.

Care to explain the bait-thing?

[ConSpiracy]

Care to explain the bait-thing?

I threw out that bit about xtoxm because I wanted to see who would either attack him, or come to his aid. Snake did the latter. Same basic principle with the vote on you.

That is not the context you said it in. This is what you said:

3) Nice strawman, but if you look back, you'll see I find you scummy because of how you've pushed a bandwagon. When I voted ConSpiracy, I made sure to let everyone know it was a serious vote. I was setting myself up as bait, and you bit. If you think a bandwagon is the best way to get out of RVS, then why not vote ConSpiracy with me? Even if you think he's town, it doesn't matter. It's just a wagon, and it gets us out of RVS. Unless you think that your page 2 reads are going to hold for the rest of the game, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to bandwagon him. It'd be a hell of a lot easier than wagoning me. But you weren't interested in a wagon to leave RVS, you wanted a wagon that would grow, and maybe turn into a lynch. And that is scummy.

Care to explain the right thing now?

[ConSpiracy]

Care to explain the right thing now?

I voted you to get reactions, and I got a nice big fat one from Snake Eyes.

If you voted for me to get reactions, why didn't you initially get that I did the same with my vote for you? And why did you unvote that easily when I told the reason for my vote? It just doesn't really add up.

@ Ythan

Though I don't really like the RVS myself, don't you think there has to be one? I have played one game without a RVS and it started very lurky. The RVS starts discussion.

13 - From iamusername. Something about this vote bugs me. RVS of someone with a vote already on them seems strange.

...

16 - This is obviously trying to get a bandwagon going on the most viable person. It's a null tell for me on page one, but at least it gets people talking.

These two comments, in one post, seem to contradict each other. Additionally this is a long ass post with a poor way of referring to the posts in question. Please use quotes, and if you could do so to clarify the points you're still holding onto at this point in the game I would like that.

This is very strange. Care to explain Vordark?

[ConSpiracy]

@ Ythan

Though I don't really like the RVS myself, don't you think there has to be one? I have played one game without a RVS and it started very lurky. The RVS starts discussion.

It's how the game naturally starts. Do you think I have a problem with it?

Well, I thought that, because you didn't want to participate in the RVS.
Why didn't you random vote then?

I must say I already lost interest in this game due to the huge walls about Umbrage and the fight between Ythan and Krazy and I skipped most of the last 3/4 pages. I will have a reread this weekend and maybe earlier, but it is very boring to get through these long arguments just to find something worth noting. Please stop the bickering about useless things.

[ConSpiracy]

Reading the post above, I know I am lurking.
I usually am the one being active, but these posts most of you produce are very hard to go through and if there are 2 pages a day coming it is hard to keep my concentration.
Tomorrow I have a day off and I will read everything carefully. I will make a catch up post to show my thoughts.
After then I will try not to fall behind. If after two weeks I again fell behind I will consider being replaced.

[ConSpiracy]

Okay, I promised to get a catch-up post today, but some friends came here and occupied me. I have read everything and I have made some notes. I will work them out either tomorrow or in the weekends. Whenever I have time first.

[ConSpiracy]

So finally read the thread carefully. First thing I am doing is UNVOTE: Umbrage.

@ ConSpiracy is your mafia read on Umbrage as strong as it previously was, and if so who do you believe to be his partners?

Nope it isn't and I will tell you why:

Umbrage

I voted for him to get out of the RVS, as has been mentioned a lot of times. After that, this contradiction didn't sit well with me:

3) Nice strawman, but if you look back, you'll see I find you scummy because of how you've pushed a bandwagon. When I voted ConSpiracy, I made sure to let everyone know it was a serious vote. I was setting myself up as bait, and you bit. If you think a bandwagon is the best way to get out of RVS, then why not vote ConSpiracy with me? Even if you think he's town, it doesn't matter. It's just a wagon, and it gets us out of RVS. Unless you think that your page 2 reads are going to hold for the rest of the game, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to bandwagon him. It'd be a hell of a lot easier than wagoning me. But you weren't interested in a wagon to leave RVS, you wanted a wagon that would grow, and maybe turn into a lynch. And that is scummy.

I already answered that. I didn't know why CS was asking me to give reads. I had three choices.

1: Say I didn't have any good reads, and look stupid, maybe even scummy.
2: Make up some weak page one reads and end up eating my words later in the game, looking scummy.
3: Call CS out as scum, get us out of RVS, and maybe catch some scum along the way.

Both posts told me he voted me to get reactions and to get us out of the RVS. However, he also said this:

OK, that makes sense.

UNVOTE: ConSpiracy

VOTE: Snake Eyes

This comment wouldn't be made if he was just trying to get out of the RVS. He states here that he found me scummy for my vote and not to provoke reactions. Also in the second quote he mentions that he really cares about not looking scummy. It is not really townish to think that way especially if that aren't the only things he could do.

However, I read the reasons why people voted for him:

Why is ConSpiracy asking you specifically a question a somewhat serious scumtell? What about it is more scummy than a person who is arguably not doing much to get the game out of RVS, and why point it out if it's not scummy?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Umbrage

Unvote: ConSpiracy
Vote: Umbrage

Right now I'm leaning town on Snake Eyes and ConSpiracy, neutral on Abelcain given the "act scummy" tactic use. Umbrage seems to be doing a lot of OMGUS voting and a whole lot of flipping out for a relatively painless page one, three-vote, get us out of RVS bandwagon. And the whole act scummy to see who bites thing is just silly. DarthYoshi's jumping on ConSpiracy and then Snake Eyes for "defending" him seems odd as well. And I think Krazy needs to focus on this game.

I am most likely to vote Umbrage right now, as he has the most of my outstanding questions, but those were made since his last post so I'm going to abstain for the moment.

Those three voted for Umbrage. Snake Eyes used a crappy reason to vote him. Snake Eyes's further elaboration is meh. The first thing I pointed out (read above) he used after I said it and that is the only thing in his Umbrage attacks that I found scummy.
Vordark used a catch up post to determine his vote. The reasons were: OMGUS, the going out of the RVS and the bait thing. Although the reason for my vote was strange and scummy, the OMGUS is nothing. On top of that his catch up post has some contradictions and seems like a buddying post to me.
Ythan reason is very, very bad. He had some questions about Umbrage and therefore he needs your vote? No suspicion was raised...
When three people were bandwagoning this easily, all of the Umbrage wagon is scumpoints and Umbrage himself gets townpoints. I wouldn't be surprised at all if at least one of the bandwagoners is scum.

Two people highly raised my suspicions.

Vordark

There is one big problem with him, his catch up post. The other things may seem town motivated, but I couldn't find much that made sence.
His "catch-up" post was buddying, buddying, buddying. All of the things he said were already mentioned in thread and he hasn't put anything at all for himself. For example:

17 - I don't like DarthYoshi's vote at all here. There's nothing inherently "sketch" about ConSpiracy's vote in #16. You might not find scum on page one, but getting people talking sooner rather than later is always a good thing.

So DarthYoshi's vote isn't good enough to let me talk? He didn't even think of this point, but he just blindly does what seems to be the flow of the game: My vote being right and all others being wrong.

This is a lot of Krazy-baiting. Krazy has actually started to settle down and contribute something. DY's reply was unnecessary and I think anyone that really wanted to focus the town would have let Krazy's comments slide, or at least tried more to defuse the situation than to egg him on, which this appears to do. He drops a sentence as props on Krazy's hunting of the lurkers, but makes sure he explains that his vote is staying on Krazy because of his responses. I read that last sentence as encouraging Krazy to keep engaging.

To summarize: Some of what DY is critical of I actually read as pro-town (moving us out of RVS, looking for relationships between players), he spent too much time FoSing CS's bandwagon on Umbrage while saying CS gave no reason for it, appeared to backtrack on that in the same post he continued to defend it and looks like he's trying to keep the Krazy train running. I also don't like how he felt the need to tell us why he moved his vote off Umbrage when he voted for Krazy.

At first, the reason he posted why DY is scummy is awful. Town wouldn't unnecessary post? That is the worst reason ever to vote for someone. On top of that the other reasons are bad as well: - Again the mention of my vote being great, - Krazy train (lol Ozzy Osbourne) attack was useless and - DY didn't vote for Umbrage at all.
DY asks rethorical if continuusly putting pressure on your suspect is scummy (which was on the list of scummy things), Vordark answers this way:

Again, this statement only works if we assume you have a town motive. An equally viable explanation for the events is that you are attempting to keep the Krazy train running as a distraction.

Lol, great answer. "I don't know wether you are scum or not so that is nothing." But you did find him scummy for it.

ConSpiracy's ISO is only eight posts long, the last of which looks a pre-flake. Hopefully he's able to catch up and lend us his thoughts now that the thread seems to have settled down a bit. To be sure, CS is a big null read to me. BW's on page one or two are common to roll out of RVS, so could be town or could be scum trying to look town. The people jumping on it, though, that's interesting to me.

Great post, only if you weren't bandwagoning yourself and not even looking at SE and Ythan yourself... Fake town points.

Xtoxm

Lack of content really much... First post:

Definitely not liking this Umbrage wagon, this is surely scum fueled. What i've seen of Vordark looks town, I like iam's succinctness and he's looking pro-town, so i'm thinking there is scum in {CS, SE, Ythan}. Will go with Ythan as my current top suspect, but I really need to read properly what I have only skimmed when I get a chance. I'll try and do this tomorrow.

This post screams scum pushing town to get into the "right" direction. He didn't do anything himself, but he did point out where we should go to. Scum not wanting to take the responsibility for the wagon, but easily can get on one. Scummy.

Having taking a closer look at Ythan, he's not been as complacent as I had initially thought.

I'm left with CS, TBL, Abelcain and DarthYoshi as people who less appear to be acting with town motivations than everyone else.

Vote: DarthYoshi

Why him rather than the others? Because he has the most votes.

Not taking responsibility for his vote. No content other than some unexplained reads.

Previously to this it was this post my Abelcain iso #6,12 but DY's new post really blows these out of the water; when I voted DY it was just voting for one of the 4 people that hadn't given me any town inclinations, now I feel that DY is actually scummy.

Lol, need I say more?

VOTE: Xtoxm

FoS: Vordark

Most things about DarthYoshi were very null. There are very many circular arguments and most things aren't even scummy. If somebody can post a proper case of Darth I would like to read it, since in my eyes he is by far less scummy than most of the players. He seems like an easy mislynch.

EDIT: So. Many. Posts. Between. My. Start. Of. This. Post. And. Me. Posting. It. Please...

[ConSpiracy]

I am not in favour of the tracker/vig choose the vig. In my previous experience of vigs they only shoot townies. The vig must be damn sure about himself to choose vig.
Keep in mind that the tracker can confirm some townies: hider/cop/hider-tracker. Isn't that better than the possibility of shooting townies?

Regfan, you totally forgot the hider-tracker in your list thingie.

Vordark, I will get to you either today or tomorrow.

[ConSpiracy]

Pfff. I have some spare time. Let's get to vordark.
First thing I want to say is that I really shouldn't make a case when I am very tired. There are many odd sentences between it or things that I explained in a strange way. I will read through my Xtoxm case to see if I have it there, as well. Oh well, the more you learn...

1.

Can you show me where I said the reason for you vote was strange and scummy? I cannot see where you are getting this at all and given in that post I said you seemed more town to me at the time, your remark here seems very out of place.

2.

Also, can you show me where I contradict myself in the catch up post?

3.

Showing me what you consider "buddying" might be helpful as well.

1. I meant this: "Umbrage vote on me", not my vote on Umbrage. My bad. I am not a native English speaker and have often problems with English.
2. Nvm. I read back, that wasn't true.
3. Such as:

16 - This is obviously trying to get a bandwagon going on the most viable person.

You seemed to be the only one who found that obvious...

19 - OMGUS vote from Umbrage.

OMGUS? Why didn't you get the vibe of him trying to get out of the RVS? <- The thread's consensus was that my vote was good and his was bad.
In every thing else you are telling us everything some players (me, SE, Abel) have posted very good while others (Umbrage, DY) have only posted bad things. This was in consensus of the thread back then, although for example I hadn't done a thing back then: The RVS-thingie, and some questions towards Umbrage.

Can you show me anywhere I appear to have been unclear or did not back up my remarks with reason? I have posted a fair amount, so it should not be difficult to find something that does not make sense, as you believe makes up the bulk of my posts.

Bad wording again. I didn't find much that made sense being town. Almost every thing was more null than town.

You say "buddying" three times. It would definitely be nice if you presented your reasoning for this. The latter sentence is almost certainly true. At that point, there was very little content in the thread. I am not surprised that others would make similar observations given the same, limited material.

For buddying, read the above. The content thing, I don't get why you bothered telling us that then. Informative information isn't useful if we already knew it.

This reply makes very little sense. Your vote being right and all others being wrong?

Why can't DY try to get out of the RVS with voting me because he didn't see my vote trying to get out of the RVS? Okay, the "My vote... wrong" was a bit exaggerated, but you get the idea of what I implied...

1.

"Town wouldn't unnecessary post" is not the reason I put forth as to why I was at the time leaning scum on DY (whereas now I have concluded he is scum), nor did I say it was.

2.

You say my "other reasons are bad as well" but don't explain yourself. As for "DY didn't vote for Umbrage at all", you are correct and that was a mistake on my part. He had been voting you and overly-explained why he moved it.

1. Yes it was one of the reasons:

To summarize: Some of what DY is critical of I actually read as pro-town (moving us out of RVS, looking for relationships between players), he spent too much time FoSing CS's bandwagon on Umbrage while saying CS gave no reason for it, appeared to backtrack on that in the same post he continued to defend it

and looks like he's trying to keep the Krazy train running

. I also don't like how he felt the need to tell us why he moved his vote off Umbrage when he voted for Krazy.

2. FoSing my bandwagon could be because he didn't get that I tried to get us out of the RVS. <- Nothing bad about that. I can't find a backtrack you mentioned in your iso about DY. Those aren't really good reasons to vote for DY.

No, I did not find him scummy for this. I noted only that the manner in which he was defending himself amounted to nothing more than "I'm town, so I must not be doing what you say".

Read above, you did.

I do not feel the need to move my vote around as much as some other people. I have also since looked at Snake Eyes and will look at Ythan when time permits. I believe some people do not remember there are nearly two weeks left before the deadline.

Only mentioning it and not doing anything with it later isn't voting. BTW: 2 weeks? WTF? That is short.

I think that is all. And I would like every body to remember we are playing a game here. Mass-claiming may give us better odds, but it ruins the fun of the game. Setup speculation always seems to help us, but it distracts us from playing mafia. Please stop it.

[ConSpiracy]

I am not really caring about this argument between Vordark and me any more, actually. The Xtoxm case was my priority with a small stretch to the Vordark case. The sole thing I will answer that will not get into a Yes-No argument is this:

So I'm still not seeing what you are calling "buddying".

Actually, I completely answered that:

In every thing else you are telling us everything some players (me, SE, Abel) have posted very good while others (Umbrage, DY) have only posted bad things. This was in consensus of the thread back then, although for example I hadn't done a thing back then: The RVS-thingie, and some questions towards Umbrage.

It seemed as you were trying to get in favour of me, SE and Abel. You get it now?
Also, I would like to answer on the DY case, but there isn't one if I recall correctly. If there is one, please feel free to point it out. I am not spending again many hours just to answer this.

I really don't like how nobody even cared to say something about Xtoxm. Why can he slide this easily of the radar without doing anything?

@ Umbrage:

Your case sucks as hell. Please stop the tunneling.

@ mod: Although I like you are putting the votecounts in advance to prevent long talks without a votecount between them, it is rather annoying to read that they are made after 9/10 hours. If there are any mistakes in it people forget to point those out simply because they forget to look at the votecount. Could you please occasionally try to make them as soon as you make the post itself? Thanx in advance.

[ConSpiracy]

WILD ACCUSATIONS BECAUSE I AM TUNNELING!

Lol

@ConSpiracy: In 1-2 sentences each, what are your reads on Umbrage and Snake Eyes?

Umbrage: Read back
Snake Eyes: meh, Umbrage's case on him sucks. But he didn't do anything townish either. Null.

In addition to all the above, the fact is that I have not seen one single towntell anywhere amongst his posts. Not even a sentence anywhere amongst the gigantic quote war with Vordark that makes me think "wait, I can't see scum saying that". Not one. I am just about the most confident I have ever been about a D1 vote here.

Tunneler number two.

Krazy, come here pal! Join the XXX wagon!
Vordark, we have a a reservation for you for your own place in the wagon! With a hot tub and a minibar!

[ConSpiracy]

CS's posts, in particular his replies to mine regarding DathYoshi, are serious chainsaws and pushing an easy wagon. For example, in CS's long post (#299), he offers a chainsaw of Umbrage against myself, SE and Ythan, he offers a chainsaw of DY against me, then finally pushes a vote of xtoxm based on lurking and, wait for it, another chainsaw for DY.

I love this. Somebody learnt a new word. Would we now use it in the proper context?
Xtoxm only lurker? Yeah right.

This xtoxm wagon advanced much faster than I'd expect a wagon on anything but obvscum to go. Coupled with the lurking town vibe I'm getting off him, I'm inclined to believe scum are pushing it.

Your warrant for claiming that scum are driving the Xtoxm wagon is because people hopped onto it so fast as of late, but CS and I are your two leading scumspects, and we’ve been voting Xtoxm for a while. Can’t have it both ways, mate. And one of those quick votes—Abelcain’s—you basically dismiss out of hand in #419 for being ‘null.’ Okay, voting for a lurker may be null in a vacuum, but you're ignoring the whole picture. For instance, when did AC vote for Xtoxm? After a couple of players already laid the groundwork to do so, which would plausibly make jumping onto the wagon safer and easier. To use Regfan’s scale, if anything, this would be, say, an S1 scumtell.

This is very, very true. Stupid ninja post.
DY - 1st to vote Xtoxm. Nothing happened.
CS - 2nd to vote Xtoxm. Xtoxm got a case on him and became a topic
Regfan - 3rd to vote Xtoxm. Voted for him with a summary of everyone
AbelCain - 4th to vote Xtoxm. Voted for him after an ISO
Quaroath - 5th to vote Xtoxm. Voted for him after a small ISO
Umbrage - 6th to vote Xtoxm. Because Xtoxm claimed VT.

And Vordark is suspecting DY and CS? LOL. Admit your fault and vote for Xtoxm right now.

I am scared that Umbrage is scum floating around because nobody cares about his posts any more.

[ConSpiracy]

I am highly curious and concerned why people still want to push other lynches than Xtoxm and DY. Especially with this little time until deadline.

[ConSpiracy]

I'm getting annoyed at people saying I didn't scumhunt - Yes I fucking did. Go read my fucking posts. It was only when I was on 5 votes that I gave up and claimed. You can choose to believe I failed in this game if you wish, but I am happy with my performance.

You really should learn a new defenition of scumhunting then.

And lol, you really active lurked: Read the last few posts time:
1st post after the lynch
8 hours later: 2nd post after the lynch
7 hours later: 3rd post after the lynch
1 hour later: 4th post after the lynch

That is four posts in 24 hours with long time stamps between them.

You really played a very, VERY bad game whether you are scum or not.

[ConSpiracy]

ConSpiracy

- Congratulations on being the only person to kill mafia. Your play this game was actually of a very good standard, your posts were logical and you managed to convince everyone you were town, that's why you had to die though. I don't have any advice for you because I see no flaw in your play.

It obviously wasn't good enough. You spotted me on the first day, when I actually should get the nightkill then.
You know what? Actually Vordark, Snake Eyes and a bit of Umbrage made it really hard for me to lose some suspicion after day 1, they basicly treated me as confirmed town all the time. Everybody took that over that day... I actually tried to get more suspicion on me with the bull shit case on vordark.

And read the dead quicktopic... Iam and I called a town loss after both of us died, town didn't have anybody serious at that moment. (apart from vordark a bit)

First of, thanks for hosting the game and running it so smoothly Implosion, though the setup needs to be tweaked that's for sure, had we not hit the vig night one I think town would have cruised to a victory. All in all I had a lot of fun playing this game though.

Not true. Vigs misshoot a lot. I was only lucky.

Scum QT is a go please?

[ConSpiracy]

I held my fire about this in the dead QT, but...this was a really unpleasant game to play in for me. Not because I was wagoned--I did indeed purposely try to appear a bit scummy, but I thought after a point that it was blatantly obvious to anyone really reading the thread that Vordark and I were two bickering townies--but the sheer amounts of vitriol that were in this game, and what a lot of people seemed to be quarrel over were personality differences, not alignment differences. I resisted the temptation to replace out several times.

Imp, thanks for modding. I know I'm ripping on not having a good time and whatnot, but none of that is on you. You did a good job here.

Though I can't say I didn't like the game (it wasn't my most pleasant game ever, but I still liked it a bit), I agree with it.

Dead QT

My vote for the kill is ConSpiracy. He's considered town by pretty much everyone, plus he's lurking slightly, which screams PR to me.

WUT! Me wasn't lurking at all! Me is sad...