Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[Snake Eyes]

Vote: Snake

for not telling me the watch was on his prosthetic arm. That information could have stopped me from getting axe-murdered!

If you didn't even notice the blind man had a prosthetic arm, you probably deserved it.

What time zone are you in?

GMT +2

RVS or RQS? Why?

Whichever gets the game started.

What is your experience level with Mafia?

I've played a few games.

How active can we expect you to be?

I aim to at least post daily, and will probably succeed with few exceptions.

VOTE: Krazy for spelling crazy with a k. That's just krazy.

[Snake Eyes]

OK, so my vote on ConSpiracy is about as serious as you can get for page 1 reads. Xtoxm stands out as odd to me, he didn't random vote, he didn't really say hello or anything, he just answered the questions. I'm not saying it's scum or town, it just looks odd.

Why is ConSpiracy asking you specifically a question a somewhat serious scumtell? What about it is more scummy than a person who is arguably not doing much to get the game out of RVS, and why point it out if it's not scummy?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Umbrage

[Snake Eyes]

Wait a minute. I wasn't doing much to get out of the RVS? That's not true.

Read my post again. I meant that xtoxm was arguably not doing much to get the game out of RVS by just answering the activity questions, and not voting or saying anything relevant really.

[Snake Eyes]

Uh... what? Firstly, not pushing the game past RVS is not a scumtell. Some people really like RVS.

Thirdly, I really don't see how xotxm was trying to avoid moving past RVS. If anything, he was trying to skip it altogether by not random voting

Agreed, which is why I struggled to understand why you pointed out xtoxm's actions in particular. Well, agreed apart from him trying to skip it. Trying to skip it would mean actively trying to get something going in the game.

Secondly, I already said why it struck me as kind of scummy, it was really out of the blue, I have no idea why he would ask me that unless he knew that I wouldn't give a straight answer and he wanted to make me look bad. That was my reasoning. Unless you happen to know that he had a better reason, why dispute my logic there?

I really do doubt ConSpiracy's motives in asking me that question, but my vote on him was mainly to see how you reacted to a serious vote early in RVS. Just my little way of getting to know you.

I don't understand why you would immediately assume ConSpiracy had some ulterior motives, as asking questions in early game can only help move the game forward. In the quotes above you show such remarkable self-consciousness that I'm starting to think my vote is in the right place.

VOTE: Snake Eyes

Care to give us an explanation for this? Or is this straight up OMGUS?

[Snake Eyes]

Agreed, which is why I struggled to understand why you pointed out xtoxm's actions in particular. Well, agreed apart from him trying to skip it. Trying to skip it would mean actively trying to get something going in the game.

I pointed it out to see what the rest of you thought. What do you think of him, exactly? You said he was "a person who is arguably not doing much to get the game out of RVS", which you obviously regard as a scumtell. But instead of going after him, you go after me, why?

I don't think anything of him. You're the one who brought him up. As for why I said he was a person who is arguably not doing much to get the game out of RVS, I said it to see if you would suddenly find it scummy after I said it, or back off of conspiracy. I don't obviously regard it as a scumtell, and I never said I did.

Well, my questioning ConSpiracy's motives could only help move the game forward, so what's the problem?

Haha, is this a serious post? Do I need to explain to you the difference between a guy who is asking questions to get reads off of people, and a guy who thinks that when he's asked a question, he's being set up to look bad?

You mean the quotes that explain that I did what I did to get us out of RVS. You've said that it's bad to prolong RVS, and yet you say I'm scummy. Interesting.

I genuinely think it's scummy that you're paranoid of ulterior motives when someone asks you a fairly innocuous question, yes. If you're truly acting like this out of desire to end the RVS, good job I guess, because we're officially out of RVS now.

@everyone: Stuff is happening. Any thoughts?

[Snake Eyes]

Contradictory much? Those two sentences were in the same post. You admit to actively trying to get us out of RVS then accuse someone else of being "desperate" to get out?

There's a difference between moving out of RVS and trying to start a premature bandwagon.

We will never get anywhere without bandwagons. The whole idea of a premature bandwagon is a fallacy. Why are you drawing an arbitrary line between what I'm doing and what you're doing? Is it because you want it to be scummy when I do it, and not when you do it?

I don't think anything of him. You're the one who brought him up

. As for why I said he was a person who is arguably not doing much to get the game out of RVS, I said it to see if you would suddenly find it scummy after I said it, or back off of conspiracy.

I don't obviously regard it as a scumtell, and I never said I did.

Yet, you strongly implied that I should find him scummier than ConSpiracy. Why?

See bolded. I have a total null read on xtoxm, and I'm leaning slightly town on Conspiracy. I purposefully implied so to see how you reacted.

@Snake Eyes--why are you defending Conspiracy so hard?

Not so much defending Conspiracy as I am attacking Umbrage. Here's my thought process on Umbrage in a nutshell:
His #26 set off my scumdar, saying that he had a serious vote on Conspiracy, and then pointing out something unrelated in another player that wasn't even a scumtell. I wanted him to set the record straight on xtoxm, since him pointing xtoxm out as odd was so out of the blue. There's definitely an unnatural player relation there, and should Umbrage flip scum, I'd start looking for his scumbuddies in xtoxm. I also wanted to pressure him on Conspiracy to see if he still found him scummy after some pressure and also to get him to clarify why he found Conspiracy scummy.

However, it's his reaction to my attack that really makes me think he's scum. He's attacking his attacker, which isn't a scumtell, but neither is it a fantastically townie response. There's the whole paranoia about Conspiracy trying to make him look bad with a question. He finds me scummy for trying to move out of RVS, while he admits himself he does it and even uses that to defend himself.

So yeah. Umbrage wagon is a good wagon.

[Snake Eyes]

Snake Eyes:

The whole idea of a premature bandwagon is a fallacy.

How so?

Votes and bandwagons give the discussion context. You'd never get anywhere without votes. Do you not agree?

More Snake Eyes:

There's definitely an unnatural player relation there, and should Umbrage flip scum, I'd start looking for his scumbuddies in xtoxm

Hunting for scumpairs before there have been any flips is junk science.

I look out for unnatural player interactions at all times. It's hardly the crux of my argument, anyway. It was part of my thought process and why I pressured him on it, so I mentioned it.

Also, why do you have a town read on Conspiracy?

Just a slight townie vibe, from his initial questioning of Umbrage. As for the posts where you say I'm defending him, I'm not. I wanted Umbrage to tell me how he's scummy, and explain how his vote on CS qualifies in any way as serious. The questions are intentionally biased to see if it would affect to how he reacted to my questioning.

When I voted ConSpiracy, I made sure to let everyone know it was a serious vote. I was setting myself up as bait, and you bit.

Which is it? Did you seriously think CS was trying to make you look bad, or were you just saying nonsense to set yourself up as bait? Also, which part is the bait? Here, you imply it's the vote on Conspiracy. What about here?

I threw out that bit about xtoxm because I wanted to see who would either attack him, or come to his aid. Snake did the latter. Same basic principle with the vote on you.

Here, you imply that the bait is bringing up xtoxm. Can't even keep your story straight.

If you think a bandwagon is the best way to get out of RVS, then why not vote ConSpiracy with me? Even if you think he's town, it doesn't matter. It's just a wagon, and it gets us out of RVS. Unless you think that your page 2 reads are going to hold for the rest of the game, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to bandwagon him. It'd be a hell of a lot easier than wagoning me. But you weren't interested in a wagon to leave RVS, you wanted a wagon that would grow, and maybe turn into a lynch. And that is scummy.

It's less scummy to join a bandwagon on someone I don't have a scumread on, than it is to pressure you after you've made a questionable post, and then push a wagon on you when I do have a scumread on you? Also, it's hard to wagon you, yet I want a wagon that would grow to a lynch? How does this make any sense?

Oh, and please do explain how I defended xtoxm. He has said absolutely nothing, so I don't know how I would ever have any read on him, and I've said as much when I say I have a total null read on him.

[Snake Eyes]

It's less scummy to join a bandwagon on someone I don't have a scumread on, than it is to pressure you after you've made a questionable post, and then push a wagon on you when I do have a scumread on you? Also, it's hard to wagon you, yet I want a wagon that would grow to a lynch? How does this make any sense?

Oh, so you did find me scummy now? Before you said that it was simply a wagon to get reactions.

I have found you scummy for quite a while now. Try reading post #50, where I clearly say that the initial vote was more for reactions, and I have found you scummy since I got those reactions.

What specifically about his questioning of Umbrage gave you a townie vibe?

It looked like an attempt to move the game into something more meaningful than RVS, in a way that was likely to bring attention to him. There's little scum motivation to do so, but there is a pretty clear town motive.

Shut up right now, because you clearly haven't BEEN PAYING ATTENTION. Snake ADMITTED that his vote on me was because he found me SCUMMY, which means he was LYING when he said his vote was just to BANDWAGON to get us out of RVS. You want to lynch a LIAR? Lynch him.

Blatant misrepresention. The vote and my scumread on you came at different times.

Calm down and take a break when you feel like randomly capitalizing words. It's not going to make your post any more convincing.

Krazy vs Ythan is making my head hurt. Neither is scummy, but it's a serious distraction.

More tomorrow.

[Snake Eyes]

The vote and my scumread on you came at different times.

It's less scummy to join a bandwagon

on someone I don't have a scumread on

, than it is to pressure you after you've made a questionable post, and then push a wagon on you when I do have a scumread on you?

^ the technical psychological term for the bolded is A SCUM SLIP.

More accurate would be a misrepresentation, as usual. Here's the quote in context, pay attention to bolds:

If you think a bandwagon is the best way to get out of RVS,

then why not vote ConSpiracy with me

? Even if you think he's town, it doesn't matter. It's just a wagon, and it gets us out of RVS. Unless you think that your page 2 reads are going to hold for the rest of the game, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to bandwagon him. It'd be a hell of a lot easier than wagoning me. But you weren't interested in a wagon to leave RVS, you wanted a wagon that would grow, and maybe turn into a lynch. And that is scummy.

It's less scummy to

join a bandwagon on someone I don't have a scumread on

, than it is to pressure you after you've made a questionable post, and then push a wagon on you when I do have a scumread on you? Also, it's hard to wagon you, yet I want a wagon that would grow to a lynch? How does this make any sense?

In other words, I say I don't find CS scummy, that I find your post worth pursuing, and later find you scummy. Which is, shockingly, what I've been saying all along.

Umbrage seems to be losing it but I still fail to see how his hysterics translates into scumplay. Insofar as he has been hysterical, it's difficult saying one player has been scummier than another in joining the wagon on him, since most are making good criticisms of him. However, it seems probable that at least one person on the Umbrage wagon is scum. Even if Umbrage is scum himself, his position in this game could lead to early wagoning, however I do not currently believe that to be the case. But since there so much room to make compelling criticism of Umbrage, I don't think any scum player has needed to stretch themselves to join the wagon. I will probably re-read the wagon on him once more people have caught up on the game or there is a flip. Continuing to grill Umbrage only makes it easier for lurkers to join the wagon on him when they do return to the game.

His over the top hysterics were giving me pause as well, as stuff like that is much more common on town than scum. On the other hand, some people just play more aggressively and emotionally, and after taking a quick ISO skim at some of the other games he's played, his yelling at the screen here is not an isolated incident. In Mini 1108 he did it as scum and in Mini 1102 he did it as town. So I'm viewing it as a null-tell in this case.

Also, I think your assumption that there's scum on the wagon is a bit premature, as there's no way to know if Umbrage is town. I'd even say that given how scummy Umbrage looks, this wagon could have grown a lot faster, if Umbrage was actually town. It would be very easy for scum to add their votes to the Umbrage wagon, if he's town.


Might move my vote around soonish if the lurkers don't start contributing. Xtoxm and TBL in particular, who are both clearly reading the thread, but have said hardly anything.

[Snake Eyes]

Just letting you guys know that I've been sick since yesterday and will do a complete reread in the next few days when I'm feeling better.

[Snake Eyes]

@Snake Eyes: in post #191 you say:

Also, I think your assumption that there's scum on the wagon is a bit premature, as there's no way to know if Umbrage is town. I'd even say that given how scummy Umbrage looks, this wagon could have grown a lot faster, if Umbrage was actually town. It would be very easy for scum to add their votes to the Umbrage wagon, if he's town.

I’m not really following the argument you are making here. This seems loaded with WIFOM. Yes it’s easy for scum to add votes if Umbrage is flailtown. It’s also easy for scum to add votes if Umbrage is flailscum. I don’t see how this isn’t null, because it feels so circular.

Are you more or less inclined to think Umbrage is scum based off the speed of the wagon? Why?

I guess I'm just used to games starting with early, fast wagons, and it just felt a bit weird how long it took to get the first wagon going. In hindsight though the game had some lurkers in it, so I suppose the speed of the wagon is a null tell. Another thing I evidently failed to emphasize here is the possibility of Umbrage being scum, in which case, I'd disagree that there's much chance of scum being on the wagon. None of the wagonees seemed to be in any way uncertain of their vote or leave windows of suspicion open to other people, so they don't seem like bussing. If Umbrage is town, then anything goes.

I believe regfan asked for top 3 scumlist:

xtoxm: Can't really bring up anything new about him as he's posted so little, but I'll just reiterate that his vote on DY and the justitication for it coming after the vote is pretty awful. Some of the other things he's saying do give me slight townie vibes, but I'm still wary of him. Not a particularly strong scumread, admittedly. Somehow most people in this game are reading town to me to varying degrees.

Umbrage: I'm not going to bother listing all the reasons I'm suspicious of him as they're all there already, but here's a few new points I don't think I've mentioned.
1. He keeps calling me scum and posting misrepresentions I've already debunked long ago.
2. He is making no effort to scumhunt or convince people that I'm scum. How is anyone supposed to take his scumread on me seriously if he isn't even voting me?
3. On a non-scummy note, there's this post which makes me think he might be just a townie butthurt over being wagoned.
Overall, he still belongs on my scumlist, but he's no longer the top suspect.

DarthYoshi: Reading him in ISO, there's tons of scum motivation for his post history. First off, in post #3, all the questions are aimed in a way to cast suspicion on the people involved. There and in later posts he's very much keeping all his options open and not saying anything of who's scum, just pointing out anti-town behavior. There are tons of other points I agree with but am too tired to find right now from Vordark/Iamausername, but let's just say that I'm pretty sure this guy is scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DarthYoshi

[Snake Eyes]

@ Snake Eyes: I'm asking one more time: why did you find CS to be town at the start of the game?

It looked like an attempt to move the game into something more meaningful than RVS, in a way that was likely to bring attention to him. There's little scum motivation to do so, but there is a pretty clear town motive.

Not seeing much benefit of a massclaim straight away as opposed to just lynching claimed VT. If someone claims PR when put to L-1, it will confirm him, unless someone counterclaims which means we have narrowed down 1 scum out of 2 people. The only thing that may mess up town is if the vig kills a PR, but I'd rather let the vig take that risk, if he so chooses, than out every single PR in the game.

I'd recommend the vig choose tracker unless he's sure enough of his reads to potentially single-handedly lose the game for town.

[Snake Eyes]

DarthYoshi: Reading him in ISO, there's tons of scum motivation for his post history. First off, in post #3, all the questions are aimed in a way to cast suspicion on the people involved.

Town should suspicious of everyone at the outset because there are so few clues as to alignment (barring being a mason or a similar role—clearly not an issue in this setup). Are you saying that there were/are people that early in the game that I should have been giving a pass on?

And how exactly is keeping options open and being open-minded indicative of alignment?

You were not just "being suspicious of everyone", you just made questions that hinted at scumminess but didn't follow up on whether or not you found them scummy or not. It is very scum-motivated to cast suspicion on as wide a range as possible, as that way it's much easier to manipulate on whom to pick for the (mis)lynch. Even better when it's combined with hedging like yours - as far as I can tell the only person you've said is scummy is xtoxm, and that is for lurking and other reasons that came after your vote.

Massclaims just brak the game and make them duller than dull. *shrug*

VOTE: Quaroath

There are plenty of reasons to be against a massclaim, but to be against it because it would be dull? Wait, ARE you against it? You don't state a definite opinion here. Want to be able to switch to either side, eh?

Yes I am, because it makes the game far more boring. I like how you jump on me when I'm not the first one to point that out.

Krazy was

I agree that it makes the game boring, but if it had been a gamebreaking strategy it would have been anti-town to oppose it. This second post where you just deflect to Krazy makes me think you have ulterior motives for not going through with it.

I find a few faults in this post. For one, he more or less says that I should find xtoxm more scummy than ConSpiracy because he's not getting out of RVS, which is weird. But more to the point, he says he doesn't know my reasons for voting CS, although I outlined them in my previous post. Apparently, he didn't see that post, or it didn't grab his attention.

Which means that it was likely my saying that the vote was serious that triggered this response

, since that is what he quoted and to what he responded. It wasn't the vote itself; it was his knowing that there was a serious vote that made him vote me.

Bingo on bolded.

If he truly didn't understand my reasoning, then why did he vote me at this point? The logical thing to do if you don't understand someone's reasoning is to ask them to explain, not assume the reasoning is scummy and vote them.

Snake Eyes later tries to cover his tracks by claiming that this vote on me was simply to get a wagon started. This would explain why he voted without knowing my reasoning, as well as his apathy for said reasoning. However there are a few holes in this story. Firstly, why would he bandwagon me? CS was the better choice, simply because he already had a serious vote on him, mine. I explicitly said that it was serious, and clearly Snake Eyes saw that the vote was serious, as he quoted me saying so. Now, if he was really trying to get out of RVS via a wagon, voting CS would be the logical step, since he already had a serious vote, the wagon was serious, and not a joke RVS one. What's more, he would've likely noticed that I was trying to do the same thing to CS. A wagon is stronger when it has more than one person pushing the wagon. I was already pushing hard on CS. Why didn't he just join up with me? By wagoning me and not CS, he makes it clear that

he knew CS was trying to get out of RVS, but he didn't know I was doing the same, even though I explicitly said my vote on CS was serious

.

I thought a question with a vote created more pressure. Remember that I was also suspicious of you namedropping xtoxm for no reason and wanted to see if you waffled on him.

Where did I claim that the vote on you was just to get a wagon started? Also, I didn't know why your vote on CS was "serious" as you put it. Yes, you had given some reasons for your vote on CS on an earlier post, but when you say your vote is "serious", the usual implication is that the person you are talking about is really, really scummy. I didn't agree and thought you claiming the vote was serious was far more worth my attention. Still don't get why you keep bringing up that CS was the better choice, as I really don't see why, or why it's somehow scummy that I chose to pressure you over CS.

It's clear the point he was making was that since he didn't have a scumread on CS, it was better for him to pressure me. But he said he didn't find me scummy at that point, so he was wagoning someone he didn't have a scumread on anyway. Why then, would he say CS was a poorer wagon because he didn't have a scumread on him? By saying that his lack of a scumread on CS influenced his decision to wagon me, he admits that he wouldn't bandwagon someone he didn't have a scumread on, and yet he maintains he didn't have a scum read on me.

I didn't make a conscious decision between either of you, like you're implying here and in many other places. The notion that I shouldn't pressure you unless I have a scumread on you is laughably bad. I've already said why I wanted to pressure you - your post where you said your vote on CS was serious and then brought up xtoxm for no reason.

I don't see why scum would not want to move the game past RVS. In fact, the faster we're out of RVS, the faster a lynch will happen, and scum want fast lynches. So if anything, wanting to move the game past RVS is a scumtell.

Hey Umbrage, who's scummier, me who's "lying scum", or Quaroath, who you're voting for not supporting the massclaim? And why?

[Snake Eyes]

So, uh, same old going on here I see. Umbrage's case on me is still dumb as hell, DarthYoshi is still scum and just about everyone in the game is catching up.

Nothing to say except iamausername's #381 is a good summary on DarthYoshi everyone should take a look at.

P.S. If anyone's wondering why I'm not answering any of Umbrage's questions, it's because they seem like the same old misrepresentions or misleading questions that I've already answered one way or another.

[Snake Eyes]

'K, well if you don't say anything new, I'm not changing my opinion of you.

Don't really care about your opinion of me.

I will say something new as soon as I have something relevant to say, which is, when people start posting again and comment on DarthYoshi. This includes you btw.

[Snake Eyes]

Iam, I was bothering before, but there is no point anymore. I was clearly widely suspected and going to be lynched at some point anyway. It is better to be mislynched earlier rather than later. At any rate, the moment I claimed I put a death sentence on myself. I have given my input for the day, that is all I can do. I have said that DarthYoshi is my top suspect, followed by Abelcain. Not that this means anything.

You are playing just awful, regardless of your alignment. It is by no means playing to your win condition to claim and give up at L-2, and if you just didn't want to play you should have requested replacement. If you truly are town then you're certainly not doing yourself any favors here.


Generally, xtoxm's play makes me think of him as bored/frustrated townie, but it is a bit weird how he says he was going to be lynched at some point anyway. I really don't get why a townie would think this. After all, if DY - his top suspect and the other wagon candidate - is scum and we lynch him, a lot of the suspicion on xtoxm is gone. It seems more the sort of thing a suspected scum who had no intention of bussing his buddies would think.
As for what this makes DY, originally I thought xtoxm being scum would mostly clear DY, but Regfan makes a good point that if they're both scum, as unlikely as it is to have 2 leading scumwagons, then xtoxm's vanilla claim and giving up makes sense.


I still think DY is more likely scum, but when xtoxm gives up like this and half the playerbase is suspicious of him, we're probably going to have to lynch him so we might as well do it today. Alternately, we could leave him alive and suggest the vig take care of him, but I'm uneasy about forcing the vig to choose vig and direct him like that on the first night.

[Snake Eyes]

Do you seriously not see it? He let slip that he knew xtoxm's alignment!

It wasn't a slip in the first place(because he was responding to your points and you just took it out of context and tried to twist it to a scumslip) but this sure is. The only person here who seems to know xtoxm's alignment is you. Shouldn't this sort of accusation come after we actually know if xtoxm is town or not?

Deadline is in a little over a day, so it's probably going to have to be xtoxm. He's a claimed vanilla who's not even trying to defend himself. He could be replaced because he seems to have quit the game, but I see little point in making the mod go through the hassle when it's pretty much a doomed slot and we're close to the deadline. I'll hammer him in about 24 hours if necessary, don't want to deadline to a no lynch.

[Snake Eyes]

If you seriously think Umbrage is slipping here, shouldn't you be saying we should lynch him instead?

Several pretty obvious reasons.
1) It being a scumslip relies on xtoxm being town, which I wasn't quite as certain then as I am now(there's little point in xtoxm keeping up this play now that he's already hammered)
2) It was only a little over a day until deadline, so a wagon on Umbrage would have been just about impossible to make in time
3) xtoxm needed to die anyway for reasons I already said, and his flip would be informative on Umbrage as well

It wasn't a slip in the first place(because he was responding to your points and you just took it out of context and tried to twist it to a scumslip) but this sure is. The only person here who seems to know xtoxm's alignment is you. Shouldn't this sort of accusation come after we actually know if xtoxm is town or not?

Where did I say xtoxm was town? I think he is scum. Granted, not as strongly as I think you're scum, but you haven't claimed yet.

This is second time I've said this, so I think I'll make it clear:

I think xtoxm is scum. I don't know why people think I said he is town.

Do you seriously not see it? He let slip that he knew xtoxm's alignment!

What you say right there only applies if xtoxm is town, and implies that xtoxm is in fact town.

xtoxm, even if you won't admit it, you failed big time in this game. I'm guessing you're actually town since you're still keeping it up, but drawing a vanilla role is no excuse to just lay down and get lynched. If you had put just a little effort into the game despite being just a vanilla, you might have gotten someone else lynched who wasn't necessarily a townie.

[Snake Eyes]

So yes, if the Hider Tracker tracked Iamausername to anyone other than Quaroth or CS last night, they need to out because that would be confirmed scum.

Correct. They no longer have any power and their only use beyond that of a vanilla townie now is in any information they gained last night and the fact that they have a unique role to claim. If you, hider tracker, did track the hider to one of the dead killers last night, don't claim yet. You'll just be killed tonight as confirmed town.

Quoted just to be sure the HT sees this.


Now that we have a scum flip, I'll try to reread the game as soon as I find some time. Next week is going to be pretty busy, but I'll try to see to it. My initial impression however is that Umbrage is pretty unlikely to be Q's scumbuddy(and therefore town). Quaroath was attacking Umbrage a lot on day 1, and his ISO16 looks a lot like setting up Umbrage for tomorrow's (mis)lynch.

Unfortunately Quaroath didn't take a lot of solid stances on people other than Umbrage and xtoxm, so nobody really stands out as likely scumbuddy from a ISO skim. So I'll VOTE: DarthYoshi for now, who still stands out as scummy from yesterday, and I see nothing in either DY's or Q's ISO that would heavily discourage such a scumpair.

Also,

V/LA 1/4 - 3/4

. Going to move next weekend, so if I don't post by Tuesday, there's probably some problem with internet access and mod should start looking for a replacement.

[Snake Eyes]

Vote: No Lynch

No lynching will give us the best chance of having two roles survive until tomorrow and probably getting us another PsyDet result. And tomorrow we should massclaim, so we can get two confirmed townies(or one if a PR dies). The main reason to no lynch today is that we can't trust PR claims if we mislynch today, and there's a 1/4 chance we would form a wagon on one of our PRs as well. It's better to no lynch now than in mylo, when there's still a good chance scum will hit vanilla.