Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice

[AGar]

/mrifnoc

[AGar]

mrifnoc\*

[AGar]

VOTE: Ythan

Because you made it to LYLO as scum claiming cop in a newbie game, I hate you so.

[AGar]

OMGUS

I'm not voting you because you're voting me, I'm voting you for using non-town logic. So it's not OMGUS.

Excellent use of sarcasm in place of an actual defense though, it's a good way to hide the fact that you don't have one.

Trying to use semantics to build an early game bandwagon?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Erratus Apathos

CHOOOO CHOOOOo

[AGar]

There is no dissection of miller claims. You simply take that with a grain of salt, judge them like a normal player (if they're scummy, you lynch them. If they're townie, you don't) and if they're still alive a phase prior to MYLO/LYLO, you lynch them on policy to keep from WIFOM headaches in LYLO.

[AGar]

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.

Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.

We've got two down! Easy-sauce.

[AGar]

1) What is your time zone? This is good to know in case we have some oversees players and we're waiting for a post from them.
2) What is your mafia experience here and elsewhere? I like to know the experience levels from players, just in case there are any first timers mostly.
3) How often can we expect a post from you? Just for my personal reference, mostly.

1) EST. But I work overnights, so expect random posts.
2) 40+ (probably up close to 45 now) here. 2 off-site, maybe 3? IDR.
3) Once a day, probably more. Some days only 1.

How is EA being pro-town at all? He's trying to build a wagon off of semantics. Not something even a hair more likely for scum to do, but semantics. Last I checked, that was a pretty cute little scum trick.

[AGar]

OMGUS

I'm not voting you because you're voting me, I'm voting you for using non-town logic. So it's not OMGUS.

Excellent use of sarcasm in place of an actual defense though, it's a good way to hide the fact that you don't have one.

Trying to use semantics to build an early game bandwagon?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Erratus Apathos

"Trying to use semantics" no
"build an early game bandwagon" yes

Semantics = "It's not OMGUS, because this is why I did it!" You're twisting the definition of a word or phrase (in this case, OMGUS) to your liking.

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.

Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.

We've got two down! Easy-sauce.

Okay, then explain how NE is using false logic to say that penpen's post has no content.

The false-logic isn't that the post has no content. The false-logic is "usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason" and using that as backing for a vote.

How is EA being pro-town at all? He's trying to build a wagon off of semantics. Not something even a hair more likely for scum to do, but semantics. Last I checked, that was a pretty cute little scum trick.

Quote me arguing semantics then. Because I haven't.

Look up.

---

I'm liking the EA wagon, especially his latest OMGUS against TP. Very comfortable with my vote.

[AGar]

The false-logic isn't that the post has no content. The false-logic is "usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason" and using that as backing for a vote.

You still haven't explained what is wrong with my reasoning, and you haven't addressed my later clarification post on the subject, so I'll clarify it again: scum are more likely to fail to random vote and fail to give a reason for not random voting.

What's wrong with your reasoning?

It's fucking moonbeams, that's what.

---

Let's break down EA's rage here.

1. You can say why you voted for someone all you want.

I don't fucking believe you.

2. Just because you think it's normal for a townie to have two FoSes out, doesn't make it the de facto normal. I never FoS personally. I think they're a waste of time. You're overreacting to that. Someone thought it was scummy you did it. You can't say "No, that's not a fact. This is a fact!" It's is not a "fact" that it is normal for townies to have two FoSes out. Get the fuck over it.

@Ythan,Plague, anyone who said Erratus was vote-hopping, pushing weak cases, getting serious about trivial matters, spamming is correct.
But, the result of this has been to make him very noticeable and keep everyone on their toes => town tell.

This. This is fail logic.

@Ythan - I wasn't saying that he didn't know what OMGUS was. I was saying he was twisting the definition of it to the literal form to prove he wasn't casting an OMGUS vote. He basically said the minute you give any kind of reasoning, even shit reasoning, it's not OMGUS, ignoring the fact that half the time people put a reason onto an "OMGUS" vote that's weak and illogical just to avoid the accusation of OMGUS.

[AGar]

@Ythan - I wasn't saying that he didn't know what OMGUS was. I was saying he was twisting the definition of it to the literal form to prove he wasn't casting an OMGUS vote. He basically said the minute you give any kind of reasoning, even shit reasoning, it's not OMGUS, ignoring the fact that half the time people put a reason onto an "OMGUS" vote that's weak and illogical just to avoid the accusation of OMGUS.

And you can call any reasoning on a vote weak and illogical to cast it as omgus, but if you don't explain why it's weak and illogical I'm going to take issue with it.

What is this pile of spam?

VOTE: Erratus

So Ythan, you're scum this time, yes?

Notice how Exilon calls Ythan scum but votes me. This makes perfect sense.

No, wait. It makes the exact opposite of that.

UNVOTE: penpen
VOTE: Exilon

Tell me how anything in this is more than just filler to cover an OMGUS vote. The problem isn't here, however. OMGUS is OMGUS. You and I both know that OMGUS isn't generally a tell at all.

Here's the problem:

OMGUS

I'm not voting you because you're voting me, I'm voting you for using non-town logic. So it's not OMGUS.

Excellent use of sarcasm in place of an actual defense though, it's a good way to hide the fact that you don't have one.

He defends against the OMGUS accusation like he's being attacked by scum trying to wagon him to his DOOOOOOOOOOOOM and basically says "Nuh-uh, I had a reason, it's not OMGUS!"

There is no dissection of miller claims. You simply take that with a grain of salt, judge them like a normal player (if they're scummy, you lynch them. If they're townie, you don't) and if they're still alive a phase prior to MYLO/LYLO, you lynch them on policy to keep from WIFOM headaches in LYLO.

well if people want to talk about his miller claim, then we are free to do so. Why are you so dismissive of what seems quite an imporatant post?

Because it's not important and discussing it will only lead us in circles of non-productive (dun dun dun) WIFOM which gets us nowhere. You gain nothing from dissecting a miller claim. If you want to lynch him because he's scummy, fine. If you want to keep him around because he's townish, whatever. But discussing and analyzing the miller claim simply distracts town from scumhunting when we need to be most, as D1 generates the most information down the road whether it's successful or not in terms of lynching scum.

[AGar]

Wait, no, I think I actually have a better place to put my vote in. Miller claims aren't scummy...lurking is.
VOTE: Klazam

:goodposting:

@Ythan - I get where you're coming from. I guess I prefer to be less believing of some things than you.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mozamis

You're not doing anything useful. You're simply posting garbage about people's attitudes, and last I heard, scum can be nice or assholes! So start doing something, because there's plenty for you to actually look into. You haven't laid down a real stance yet.

[AGar]

EA, NE, & Ythan: None of you three are voting. Ythan's at least putting effort into this, and prodding. I want to know if forced to vote now who you'd vote for. There's been enough in this game that you shouldn't be avoiding a vote at this point in time.

[AGar]

More people need to vote mozamis. F'real.

Posting is awful. Straight up "Hi, this is my fence and I ike it very much."

[AGar]

AGar- could you point out Moz's fencesitting? I dont see it.

Either you don't read or your an awful scumpartner to Moz.

1) Moz admitted it in the post RIGHT BEFORE YOURS
2) This post and this post (for the "could be true/could be scum trying to mess with us" <- NO SHIT) and this post.

There's a handful. All of them make sure to take 0 stances on any situations.

[AGar]

Can anyone give me a summary of the rat case? Nothing Budja said stuck out at me.

Of course it didn't, nothing Budja said was meaningful! He never scumhunted, he was content to argue with my attackers all day and do nothing else!

I seriously cannot understand how mozamis's not taking stances is scummy and Budja's isn't. That's completely fucking backwards is what it is. Mozamis attacked me and Mae, then dropped both of those suspicions in response to the wagon on him and openly declared that he had no scumreads, and he got wagoned to L-1 mainly for not attacking anyone. While penpen/Budja/pappums,

none of whom have

ever

attacked anyone

, get overlooked. Am I the only one who sees anything wrong with this?

Penpen/Budja/pappums haven't been posting multiple times with useless fluff and not actually taking stances. They're just not posting. If Pappums doesn't put down any stances here, similar to how Moz is doing this, then I'll bring the heat in his direction too. But let me simplify for you:

Not posting != Avoiding stances

[AGar]

Fuck, this was supposed to be with the prior post.

I really disagree with lynching mozamis, I have a strong read of plain ol' confused town on him.

Instead we should lynch either pappums rat or Shattered Viewpoint. I am not exaggerating when I say that mozamis has done more scumhunting than every player in those two slots

combined

.

I'm inclined to agree with this post.

This post...

L-1.

Claim.

Still not done with analysis.

contradicts this post.

I think we might have found a potential buddy here.

[AGar]

VOTE: Klazam

I see no need for a mass-claim at this point, especially when we have pretty obvious scum in our sights.

[AGar]

Space Pope dictating the direction of the mass-claim is hilarious, especially when he can't give reasons for it. Funny shit.

ICE - I see your logic, but I didn't see the need to drag it on when we have Klazam cornered here. I'm with RC - tomorrow will be appropriate but today is just not the call.

I'd like to see input from Ythan before anything happens.

[AGar]

How is it hilarious? Popcorn is obvious and best way of doing it. I volunteered to go first and I picked who I thought to go second. Then you want to quicklynch Klazam because you are "confident" he is scum.

unvote

vote: AGAR

Because one player doesn't just get to choose "Ok, we're massclaiming, I'm starting and this is who's going second." That gives scum an opportunity to go "HERPA DERPA ME FIRST, THIS IS MY SUPER-AWESOME FAKECLAIM"

ICE- 1) wasn't asking you 2) Agar found it hilarious that I was dictating the DIRECTION not that I was starting. He has a qualm with going second.

lolno.

Oh wheeeeere oh wheeeeere has Ythan gone now... Oh wheeeeere oh where can he beeeeee?

[AGar]

I believe the merits of a mass-claim hold more true now, so I'm ok with it at this point. Leading suspicion is Space Pope at this point in time. SV had bothered me for lurking, but it seems someone took care of that already.

[AGar]

I'm waiting on Ythan - if he has legit reasoning against a MC, I'll hear him out.

[AGar]

I don't know of a reason not to MC if everyone thinks that town has something to gain that outweighs outing every town PR.

Forces the scum remaining scum into claims they may or may not be comfortable with, and can provide inconsistencies with their play throughout the game.

Anyways, I'll continue.

I'm a VT.

Next goes to Necessary Evil

[AGar]

WHY would you protect ICe both nights? this doesn't make sense.

It might not have been a great decision. Once there was no townie kill on the first night, it was clear to me that the scum probably wanted him dead so I protected him again. I didn't really know who else to protect. ICE was the most protown and the most productive. I definitely would not have protected either of the kills last night.

I agree with Exilon - if you thought ICE was town, I sure never saw anything that indicated as such in your posts. Hell, you only mentioned him twice. (At least, that's what I remember.) However, this is probrably not a gambit...because we already have 2 dead scum. Having 4 scum seems a little overkill. ICE won't be the next to claim, however.

I don't see what announcing a town read on him does for the town besides help my claim.

Hm. I'm with Mae. Inconsistent, but illogical to gambit.

Announcing him as a town read probably does nothing, but you never even really mentioned anything to lead one to believe ICE = town. Thus, inconsistency.

[AGar]

VOTE: Space Pope

This game is loltowns at this point.

[AGar]

At this point in the game I assume any superstitious types will forgive me for commenting on the night action. Dead dubious-vig instead of dead cop or doctor who kind of confirm each other?

You do realize you're suggesting that this was a 4-scum game by that, right...

[AGar]

VOTE: Ythan

GG Ythan. I wouldn't be comfortable with the plan too if I was in your position.

[AGar]

So... RC's case against me boils down to... actually nothing?

Me on EA was me trying to get him, and others, to break. It worked to a degree. EA's reactions were all over the place and half of the emotion looked feigned, like he was trying to get people to believe he was town because he was yelling and screaming - a la Fate - and then he started defending NE, who wasn't looking good to me. His basic justification for his actions was 'It's not OMGUS as long as I slap a reason on there, whether I believe the reason or not.' My vote, as I clearly said multiple times, was because anyone can slap a reason on a vote and call it "not OMGUS" - his reasonings looked crap and like OMGUS anyways. He tried to build a case against TP because "TOWN HAVING TWO FOSES OUT IS NORMAL. FACT!" when it's not fact, merely opinion. If you couldn't see him trying to push cases where they didn't exist like that, I don't know what could. I hardly feel my argument was tired and broken considering I continuously brought new points of behavior to the table on that vote. I would have rode him to a lynch had there been support for it.

I lightly attacked the Budja/Pappum's slot on D1. Yes. I had my attention elsewhere, and then they got killed N1 by a well-placed shot from Exilon. You, on the other hand, didn't acknowledge them at all aside from calling them a lurker-lynch and ignored them until they flipped. On D1, when voting for Mozamis, you made sure to highlight that it wasn't a definite vote for scum, but rather distressed town OR panicked scum. Basically you didn't buy into the wagon, but you knew opposing it would look terrible? You look like you were trying to preserve both of your scumbuddies with an out on each to get on or off their lynch at your nearest convenience.

You've semi-lurked and made it hard for anything to be gleaned from your posting since D1. You proposed the Klazam lynch, which was fine, but everything you've said so far is something that was already brought up at some point, and the first time you've actively attempted to make any real contributions to this game is now. You slid an (admittedly) easy Klazam lynch by, justifying it based more on the N1 flips and his miller claim than any behavior. Again, you cast your vote while trying to resign yourself from responsibility of any lynch that would happen. Since the Pappum's kill, which was a pretty obvious vig shot, you've tried to fly completely under the radar, trying not to do anything that would attract the vig-bullet to yourself.

VOTE: RedCoyote

[AGar]

I'm not going to quote war here, I feel that's the last thing we need at this point.

Addressing your main points:

• My attack on EA continued adding things to the mix. Whether they were the best reasoning or not, and as you admit - Day 1 has some really shoddy reasoning due to a lack of information - you denying that there was behavior I was acknowledging as compounding my case on him is ignorant at best. This seems to be a hinge-point of your case, and that's what bugs me the most.
• Whether or not you expected Moz to flip scum or town, you again looked like you wanted no responsibility for the lynch, instead just trying to appear like you're middle of the road.
• I've made an effort to put my own two cents in with all of my posts. If you want to break down my posts, yes, I have essentially the same quantity, but I feel mine are of a higher quality. Even during mass-claiming, I've given input on the merits when Ythan brought up points against this.
• The Klazam lynch was necessary. I agree. What I'm saying is your post pushing that direction tries to push it as a policy lynch rather than a lynch on a player who was acting in a manner that deserved a lynch independent of his claim.
• Having a townread on Exilon is irrelevant, and I'm not sure why you're trying to use who you had townreads on to justify that point. Your behavior has looked as if you were intentionally trying to avoid attention throughout.

[AGar]

Holy fuck, I did it?

I DID IT! WHEEEEEE!

I thought I was so screwed going into D2. Then the mass-claim actually worked perfectly in my favor.

I'll post more later, but right now I need to sleep.

[AGar]

@MOD: You can release the QT, I'm fine with it.

Ice, stop trying to upplay the luck factoring into this. Yeah, I got lucky with a few things - the massclaim broke in my favor and Exilon shooting Maemuki and not myself that night are the two big ones - but to be honest, this is probably one of the few scum games I considered a lost cause at D2 (LOST: S1 is the only other one that comes to mind... and that was lulz). I was staring down a 9:1 situation at best, with at least one doc out there, a likely cop and a killer who obviously knew what he was doing. You try playing that out as scum, then tell me how much luck goes into it.

You made the mistake of playing all of your cards on D3, and I took huge advantage of that. Red would have likely died the next night had you not proposed the massclaim. He's a player I know to be capable of excellent scumhunting and I was honestly worried about him coming around to my D1 bus. The town made the mistake as a collective of not forcing discussion on Days 4 and 5 when it was crucial to get information. I capitalized on that by remaining relatively silent and not having to commit myself to any reads, allowing my flexibility going into LYLO. Had I had to put down reads, it would've been tough to make a stretch towards RC-scum to actually put a vote down in LYLO. NE was almost predictably going to protect you to his grave, especially with you casting potential doubt on Exi as a potential SK.

TL;DR: Yes, there was a luck factor. But there were several moves I was able to capitalize on in order to propel town on the wrong track.

[AGar]

Oh, btw, Lew. Excellent job with this game.

[AGar]

I was surprised that no bell rang when no one opposed the strategy proposed by the PRs: it was evident that scum was not afraid of ICE's investigations... at the very moment everyone accepted to undergo the plan, it was imo absolutely evident that the last mafia was a GF...

Tricky point, but yeah essentially that was something I managed to slide by.

[AGar]

Though, I think people started seeing me as scummy for acting differently. I was trying to force a mass claim and I went first. The reason I did this was that I felt mass claim was inevitable, plus I figured scum did not want a mass claim. I figured scum would try to distract, to lessen to importance of, or in otherway try to stop a mass claim. I was right at least.

I'd say the game was ran very well, though I feel the number of PRs to be excessive for a mini normal (I feel mini theme should be less than half and mini normal about 3 to 4).

Agar, well done. You had numbers on your side, but you were up against a wall with all the PRs.

I think you were behind the 8-ball because of ThePlague, when you came in.

As town, I still would've pressed you about just taking charge of the mass-claim. I see why you did it, but the reason that the general process starts with come to a consensus is to ensure that a player everyone wants to see claim is put in an uncomfortable position.