Newbie 1070 - Game Over

[Stels]

Ok, I am back, doing a re-read tomorrow since I have no energy whatsoever today.

Vote Count

muh316 (2) - splitfarvle, T-Bone
barefootfighter (1) - Ellyssa
Rain (1) - Quaroath
Jack Forman (1) - Stels
Quaroath (1) - Rain
No Lynch (1) - Jack Forman

Not Voting (2) - muh316, barefoot-fighter

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch.

[Jack Forman]

@Jack
A policy lynch is not worse than no lynch, it is in fact better, for the same reason that a lynch is better than no lynch. Also, even if no one suspects you, that does not mean you aren't scum.

A PL is worse if you know that person is town (witch most of you have stated the you think I am town) and so if you are going to hit a townie you would be wasting one of three oh so precious days.

[T-Bone]

...

[Rain]

@Jack
A TL is better than NL. The reason lies in the passage you quoted. Let me rephrase it:
As long as you understand that a lynch is better than NL, then any lynch is better than NL, including a PL.

Also, just because some people think you are town does not mean that you are town. The only surefire way of determining a player's alignment is either through cop investigations (which have not happened yet), or have your role revealed after a lynch. Again, you can be scum despite popular belief indicating otherwise.

Now, the level of activity here is unacceptable. To jump start discussion, I would like to ask people to post who they think are town/scum/null. A short paragraph (similar to what Jack did) doesn't hurt neither. I'll start.

obvtown:
Rain
Ellyssa
Splitfarvle

leaning town:
T-Bone (that will change if Quaroath flips scum)
Jack Forman (candidate for Policy Lynch)
muh316

leaning scum:
barefoot-fighter
Stels

obvscum:
Quaroath

[Ellyssa]

My current views on the players are as follows:

Likely town: Rain, Quaroath (though he's been absent a few days now), Jack, (myself)
Neutral leaning town: split, T-Bone
Neutral leaning scum: barefoot, muh
Not sure: Stels, pending his catchup post, though I read him as leaning town. Also appreciated that he tried to make a contentful post even while he was on V/LA.

I would also support a policy lynch if it comes down to that,
a) For information that may come forth when reviewing his/her posts.
b) Because while one may not be scum, one can still be anti-town (ie, hurting the town through their actions or lack of), and since Mafia are unlikely to NK those people, I don't think they'd serve us well in endgame if they end up with a critical vote. Obviously I'd rather hit Mafia than a PL, but they're unlikely to walk around with neon signs proclaiming who they are.

When there's no other info to go on except what people type and do to judge everyone one way or the other, and someone is sitting back and coasting quietly and only reacting when their name is called, it casts a lot of suspicion on that slot. Although we do have a couple other quiet ones now besides muh, at least they weren't afraid to post meaty content when they have been around and posting.

Since muh never answered my question on who else he found suspicious, he seems to be trying too hard to lurk and "stay neutral", isn't contributing except to play defence, and is still on my top-two suspect list, I think I will
UNVOTE: barefoot-fighter
VOTE: muh316 (L-2)
and see if that elicits a response. Even if you are town you're not exactly being helpful, regardless if it's your playstyle or not.

Plus,

Here's how I do it. I list everyone who I think is town. The rest are not clear enough to be considered town.
Town: Jack, split, T-bone, Rain
The other 4 I'm not very sure of what to think about them.

is weird phrasing that I think I can see a Mafia mindset saying, because it seems to subconsciously convey that you're trying to townhunt instead of scumhunt, no?

@Mod: If you haven't already, could you please prod barefoot-fighter? And Quaroath will be eligible for one in 5 hours, too. Thanks!

[Quaroath]

Just to avoid the prod, fri-sat are 14-16 hour work days for me. I run a Papa John's and they are the super busy days. Last week I was on vacation, now, not so much. Will go over whats been posted and reply tomorrow at the latest. (Have a blazer game to go to tonight, and work early)

[Stels]

Spoiler: Part 1

Honestly? Some people are looking more and more like they need my vote more than Stels does. Don't worry guys, I'm very generous with my vote. Just look at the love Stels has for me.

I appreciate your feelings for me, but I don't swing that way.
I don't really mind it being there, you're just voting me based on the fact that I jumped onto the Jack Forman wagon and that's it.

Spoiler: Part 2

Also we are name-troubled. Muh, T-Bone, Stels. Three different players. Possibly different roles.

Name-troubled? You confuse people's names? Muh, T-Bone and Stels are pretty much different for you to confuse them.
I don't understand where you get this information from. Do you just pull it out of a magic hat or something?

Not one to nitpick individual phrases and such, but:

My scum group has been preety static all game. Pretty sure that's not flip-flopping. What's more..

You pretty much admitted to being scum here, although that's probably a joke, which it most certainly is. The fact that you use a "You can't keep me in a constant pair with another possible scum partner, so I'm not scum" disturbs me very much. That is the most worst excuse you could ever to get your out of a situation where you are in heat. So what if you don't have a definite scum-partner, that doesn't eliminate the chance that you are scum or any suspicions.

@splitfarvle: The only reason I see why you're voting muh316 is because he can't defend his unvote properly. I understand that cause, but you do know that it was an RVS on barefoot right? Meaning, she wasn't his suspect from the get-go. I agree on the fact that he didn't keep his vote there when he clearly FoS's her, but I can also understand why he would do that, especially this early. She could still be at L-2, but then again, this game could be full of jackasses.

The weakest part, I admit, since this was during RVS, but because it was RVS I didn't expect any sort of response. My main goal was to test the forum mechanics of voting and I literally picked the avatar that caught my eye. (If you just focus on this last part Jack again, look up please!) muh316's response seems defensive in a way, but like I said this part of my argument is easily the weakest.

I'm pretty sure he just explained why he would have an avatar that depicts the popular game character Mario. The fact that he knows it's RVS and deliberately replies to your vote is because his response isn't supposed to get you from voting him.
The only thing I see in your case is that he didn't keep his vote on barefoot-soldier long enough to get information out of her. That is my stand-point on your case against him. I applaud you're tunneling of him and your cause, but I don't think there's enough yet to actually get something going.
Although I concur what Ellyssa said about him trying to only townhunt due to phrasing of that quote in her latest post.

I said I'd be okay with this vote. He and Stels were my picks for votes, at this point, I think Stels has redeemed himself enough for now. At least until the next phase.

Oh man, I can't stop laughing now. I

REDEEMED

myself? Really now? All I did was post "I'm V/LA" and "Still V/LA" and that just stops you from seeing me as what you saw me before? Wow.

Spoiler: Town/Scum/Null

-----------------------------------------------
obvtown:
Ellyssa
Splitfarvle

leaning town:
Jack Forman
Rain

Null Read: T-Bone

leaning scum:
barefoot-fighter
muh316

Obvscum:
Quaroath
----------------------------------------------

VOTE: Quaroath
Gives bad impression, uses scummy excuses, parroting.

[Quaroath]

@stels failcase. Learn to read. I really need to explain what he did there. It makes for fantastic scum. I will when I have a computer.

[splitfarvle]

barefoot-fighter: She had some pressure on her due to perceived fence-sitting about Jack and her initial support of a No Lynch, and she didn't come across as scummy to me in her responses. Her posting style makes her seem like a new player to me. She hasn't been contributing much since, though. In my limited experience scum likes to slip through the cracks. It struck me in both games I've played how often a scum flip would elicit a "Man, I forgot he/she was even in the game" from other players. I would support a barefoot lynch at this time for that reason alone, but would prefer a replacement if she continues to lurk.

Ellyssa: Has often posted things I was thinking, and I think her playing has mostly benefited the town. The only reservation I have comes into play if muh316 flips scum, as Ellyssa offers a defense for him in post #112

Jack Forman: I really don't see why he is making so many people's town lists, but I am glad we seem to be beyond discussing the No Lynch issue (for the most part) and that he's challenging other players on different points. I'm neutral on Jack right now.

muh316: Still think he's the scummiest, and I'm comfortable with my vote. The only new point I want to bring up is something in #149:

Barefoot was not the only one I suspected.


Here's how I do it. I list everyone who I think is town. The rest are not clear enough to be considered town.
Town: Jack, split, T-bone, Rain
The other 4 I'm not very sure of what to think about them.

It makes no sense to me to say that you have suspicions for more than barefoot, then refuse to say who else you're suspicious of and why. I do not think you're playing to help the town win.

Quaroath: Initially I had a townie feeling for him. The arguments he's had have brought out a lot of defensive posting from him, and he's been more challenging to read.

Rain: Still tough to read maybe because I'm too hung up on his role as IC, but he does seem to be playing the game. I suspect my opinion on him will swing from neutral depending on D1/N1 flips.

Stels: Seems fairly clear about who he thinks is scum and why (even despite being V/LA for a spell), and I see that as more pro-town than scum.

T-Bone: Neutral. Wish I had more to say, but I have a gut feeling that keeps me from thinking he's town even though I haven't seen much from him that I would say is scummy.

[Ellyssa]

Ellyssa: Has often posted things I was thinking, and I think her playing has mostly benefited the town. The only reservation I have comes into play if muh316 flips scum, as Ellyssa offers a defense for him in post #112

Doh. Since I hope he flips scum too, if we do lynch him.. I'll preemptively offer that at that time he was still a somewhat neutral read in my eyes, and that bit in #112 was from you asking me (#107/#108) what I meant with my last sentence in my "thinking out loud" post just prior to that (#106), which supported your points except for that last sentence. So in #112 I was elaborating what I meant, in that paragraph.

@Quaroath - ouch at the work schedule.

[T-Bone]

Yay for posting.

@ Stels, by "redeemed" I mean you hadn't done anything since. That post was like 5 pages ago. You may have been on V/LA, but you still made a few posts.

@ Others Yay for posting! Yes I posted that twice, cause I'm excited.

@ Rain, sorry I don't post lists. I don't believe they help. You may disagree and have X amount of reasons, so if you want to teach everyone else why posting lists is important, but I don't feel em, so I'll rarely post em.

[Stels]

@stels failcase. Learn to read. I really need to explain what he did there. It makes for fantastic scum. I will when I have a computer.

Sigh, I hate that specific phrase "Learn to read". It pisses me off so much. The fact that you're disappointed by this pretty much makes it more suspicious if you already start calling me scum which will, eventually lead to OMGUS. The fact that I'm voting for you isn't because of that one quote, it's because I read your previous posts as well and gave my judgment. The fact that it's pretty much OBVIOUS that you wouldn't say that you are scum in that quote is apparent, I'm not stupid enough to use that in voting for you. What you're doing in that quote is using a "I don't have a scum-partner, or he changes too quickly for me to actually be scum" excuse. That's what adds to your scumminess.

[Jack Forman]

@Jack
A TL is better than NL. The reason lies in the passage you quoted. Let me rephrase it:
As long as you understand that a lynch is better than NL, then any lynch is better than NL, including a PL.

Also, just because some people think you are town does not mean that you are town. The only surefire way of determining a player's alignment is either through cop investigations (which have not happened yet), or have your role revealed after a lynch. Again, you can be scum despite popular belief indicating otherwise.

Rephrasing sounds scummy, if you want to make a good point just flat out quote it instead of trying to twist it to your point of view. None of this is your opinion you just keep telling us the how the game is to work. I understand your role in this game as IC but you are bringing up the game machanics again and again while the rest of us have moved on.

[Alduskkel]

Vote Count

muh316 (3) - splitfarvle, T-Bone, Ellyssa
Quaroath (2) - Rain, Stels
Rain (1) - Quaroath
No Lynch (1) - Jack Forman

Not Voting (2) - muh316, barefoot-fighter

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch.

barefoot-fighter has been prodded.

[Stels]

Sorry about that
UNVOTE: Jack Forman
VOTE: Quaroath

[Alduskkel]

^My error, not yours.

[Rain]

I had to rephrase it because it seems that you didn't understand the first time around.

You keep saying that the town has moved on, but evidently, not only do you refuse to vote someone, you would advocate NL instead of a PL. I expressed my opinion, and provided back-up (which so happens to be theory). What else could be done?

[Jack Forman]

Muh- I hope you have a green mushroom cus you might need it. You post like little or no help in finding scum.

Since muh never answered my question on who else he found suspicious, he seems to be trying too hard to lurk and "stay neutral", isn't contributing except to play defence, and is still on my top-two suspect list, I think I will
UNVOTE: barefoot-fighter
VOTE: muh316 (L-2)
and see if that elicits a response. Even if you are town you're not exactly being helpful, regardless if it's your playstyle or not.

You have always seemed like you don't want to make anyone mad, So I agree with Ellyssa here and I am going to do this now:

unvote: No Lynch
vote: Muh316

Besides you try to set up a PL on me and then side stepped the whole matter when questioned.

[T-Bone]

OMFGWTFBBQSAUCE JACK BANDWAGONED!

[barefoot-fighter]

@barefoot #129 Welcome back.
a) Are you indicating you are going to vote no-lynch, or that you support Jack in his stance but are going to vote something else? Not sure how to read your paragraph otherwise, as depending what you mean, the "But for reals, don't." part could be read as you also want to vote no-lynch (ie, don't want to vote someone on D1), or you are simply against lynching him (and the policy lynch idea earlier) but don't mind lynching someone else.

b) Half the rest of your post is about Quaroath's multi posting that Toad already mentioned. Assuming you aren't Mafia and not still mostly away from game either, could you please share who your top suspects are at the moment and why?

a) I support Jack, but I'm not gonna vote for no lynch. I am really against policy lynching someone on Day 1.

b) I read the posts after this, I'm trying to figure it out.
I do find odd the childish picking that's going on between Quaroath and Rain, but that could be just Quaroath, since he has a hard time with Stels, too.
I'm confused as for this conflict between Quaroath, Rain, T-Bone and Stels. I'll get it later who wants who dead.

I gather to think that despite this being a newbie game, most of us have at least played elsewhere first before coming here, so if anyone really is playing mafia for the first time, my apologies for assuming otherwise.

I have never played this game before and have only read one single game on a different forum and learned the mechanics. The mechanics, I said, not the common expressions and abreviations.

Plus,

Here's how I do it. I list everyone who I think is town. The rest are not clear enough to be considered town.
Town: Jack, split, T-bone, Rain
The other 4 I'm not very sure of what to think about them.

is weird phrasing that I think I can see a Mafia mindset saying, because it seems to subconsciously convey that you're trying to townhunt instead of scumhunt, no?

That got my eyes on Muh. Not enough to lynch him, I actually find more suspicious Splitfarvle wanting to lynch him over such a silly reason. Doesn't seem to be smart for scum either, but it is strange.
Though the scene with the policy lynch was suspicious as well.

Spoiler: Part 2

Also we are name-troubled. Muh, T-Bone, Stels. Three different players. Possibly different roles.

Name-troubled? You confuse people's names? Muh, T-Bone and Stels are pretty much different for you to confuse them.
I don't understand where you get this information from. Do you just pull it out of a magic hat or something?

I do confuse people's names. Others have, too, not only mistaking other's names (Jack called me "bear" twice, I swear I read a "barefoot-soldier" somewhere, but for some reason I can't find it now, Ellyssa called T-Bone "toad", probably for his avatar, and Quaroath called him "tabone", but that was probably a misstype), but wanting to refer to a player and typing out someone else's name. Rain and quaroath do this. Here:

In my own post, I did make a mistake. It was supposed to be T-Bone, and not muh316. Let me reiterate with the correction:
You've mentioned everybody at least once, except for T-Bone.

I also corrected my own f up on muh in an Edit by way of post. Still, not a lot of interaction with me an muh. As far as T-bone goes, anyone that I forget about being in the game is aggro lurking and is by definition, suspicious. You pretty much did what i did, mess up part of a post and ebwop. i'm not sure how big of an afer the fact for either of us the ebwop was since it was nigh immediately for both of us.

Also,

That list is Barefoot, stels, rain, T-bone over lynching Jack on a policy lynch.

I'm pretty sure he's mistaken here. Muh was the one who said "policy lynch" at Jack, not T-Bone.
Please don't be rude.

Gah I was absent for like a MONTH. Sorry? Not sure if I get some kind of penitence.
Edit: I got a prod. But now I'm posting.

[T-Bone]

Bookmark this page and you won't ever have non-posting issues again.

[Quaroath]

That list is Barefoot, stels, rain, T-bone over lynching Jack on a policy lynch.

I'm pretty sure he's mistaken here. Muh was the one who said "policy lynch" at Jack, not T-Bone.

Yeah I know, that was a list of people I'd rather lynch for information than policy lynch jack at that time. Don't think a T-bone lynch would be a good idea after the last page. Still feel barefoot-stels.

@Rain post #141. Mostly, I'm using the same argument against you you used against me, tying me to someone by circumstantial evidence. It's sarcastic because obviously, if you want to link t-bone and I because we haven't talked (to that point I hadn't mentioned him), then maybe you are searching for someone to tie your scum buddy T-bone too. It's circular logic, and frankly.. it's pointless. For both sides. The fact that I wasn’t talking about or mentioning T-bone got you started on your Quaroath is scum gravy train. Have fun riding it.
I tried explaining this concept in my ISO post #34 but I probably did it poorly. (overall post #123)

Remember that I'm in the same situation as you; I don't know anyone's alignment. I don't have more information (currently, only scums know who's town and who's not) than any typical townie.

This type of statement falls into the category of "the more you say it the less believable it becomes".

@Jack
A policy lynch is not worse than no lynch, it is in fact better, for the same reason that a lynch is better than no lynch. Also, even if no one suspects you, that does not mean you aren't scum.

A PL is worse if you know that person is town (witch most of you have stated the you think I am town) and so if you are going to hit a townie you would be wasting one of three oh so precious days.

Thinking =/= knowing

@rain #153, this tickles me kinda, because your two other scum besides me are the same two I said pages ago, and still feel that way about. Sad that your obvscum is a VT though. (Pot, Kettle) Ah well.

@stels 156 – Spoiler tags are obnoxious. Yes I just went all ad hom. Post in the clear.

To the post:
Nice Chainsaw.

Here is what I posted, and the post I was directly replying too:

Quaroath- You flip flop more than a fish out of water with your votes. Lets see, i am pretty sure this is in order- Your votes- 1 stels, 2 rain, 3 jack, 4 bear, 5 rain, and 6 bear. You are all over the board and don't tell me it is to get info out when you have not voted t-bone (even though you have suspicions he is scum), but Splitfavle and Muh you talk about but are posting enough info for you to not vote them for info??

Read what I type more carefully, I have never said I think T-bone is scum, I have said that a lynch on T-bone would be more informative and thus better for the town, than a policy lynch. My scum group has been preety static all game. Pretty sure that's not flip-flopping.

You choose to cut this:

Not one to nitpick individual phrases and such, but:

My scum group has been preety static all game. Pretty sure that's not flip-flopping. What's more..

You pretty much admitted to being scum here, although that's probably a joke, which it most certainly is.

Seriously? How badly did you dislocate your shoulder reading what I posted as “My own personal scum team I’m a part of”? That’s a hell of a stretch for anyone to make. My scum group has been (as you damn well know) you and barefoot most of the game (Since post #78 even). I’ve had moments where rain pinged my radar too. This hasn’t changed. That’s NOT flip flopping. You chainsawed a post that has to be read all as one piece, and took only the one sentence you could twist to your case? How is that not the product of a frame job or just terribad play? You explain that to me, would you?

The fact that you use a "You can't keep me in a constant pair with another possible scum partner, so I'm not scum" disturbs me very much. That is the most worst excuse you could ever to get your out of a situation where you are in heat. So what if you don't have a definite scum-partner, that doesn't eliminate the chance that you are scum or any suspicions.

That’s exactly why I didn’t use that excuse, and why you ripping the one sentence you did from the quote devoid on context is either A.) scummy, or B.) belligerently poor play, town or scum.
The sheer effort that went into the twisting of words if really epic.

@stels #161 You write:

Sigh, I hate that specific phrase "Learn to read". It pisses me off so much.

Okay, maybe you’d prefer learn to comprehend and not cherry pick?

The fact that you're disappointed by this pretty much makes it more suspicious if you already start calling me scum which will, eventually lead to OMGUS.

Far beyond disappointed, your case was case was so terribad, it annoyed me so much I posted failcase from my phone as I stood in line at the Rose Garden.

The fact that I'm voting for you isn't because of that one quote, it's because I read your previous posts as well and gave my judgment.

Your judgment of one post, you rorschached into what you wanted to read. That’s your case that you’ve posted.

The fact that it's pretty much OBVIOUS that you wouldn't say that you are scum in that quote is apparent, I'm not stupid enough to use that in voting for you. What you're doing in that quote is using a "I don't have a scum-partner, or he changes too quickly for me to actually be scum" excuse. That's what adds to your scumminess.

Apparently, it’s so obvious I didn’t say I’m scum because, get this, I didn’tYou read something that wasn’t there, and formed a scumminess read off a defense I DID NOT EVEN MAKE. What… the… hell?

Oh yeah, and you know, because it just has to happen:

unvote:vote: stels

By the way, yes, yo do suck, no thats not why I'm voting you. Get lynched please.

[Quaroath]

Frikken broken tags. not sure how they broken between preview and post.

[Quaroath]

@mod, could you please fix the quote tags in #171. Sorry about that.

[Quaroath]

@stels failcase. Learn to read. I really need to explain what he did there. It makes for fantastic scum. I will when I have a computer.

Sigh, I hate that specific phrase "Learn to read". It pisses me off so much.

The fact that you're disappointed by this pretty much makes it more suspicious if you already start calling me scum which will, eventually lead to OMGUS.

The fact that I'm voting for you isn't because of that one quote, it's because I read your previous posts as well and gave my judgment. The fact that it's pretty much OBVIOUS that you wouldn't say that you are scum in that quote is apparent, I'm not stupid enough to use that in voting for you. What you're doing in that quote is using a "I don't have a scum-partner, or he changes too quickly for me to actually be scum" excuse. That's what adds to your scumminess.

Bolding mine. So let me get this straight.... I say in post #78 (83 posts before yours, over HALF THE GAME AGO) I'm feeling a barefoot-stels scumteam... and I'm just NOW starting to call you scummy? I find it interesting that you attempt to preemptively deflect and minimize the vote you damn well know is coming our way from the failcase post. I like how you threaten me there, "Oh no, don't vote me back, that'll be make you even more SUSPICIOUS."