Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[Krazy]

--> Although players should point out scummy behavior, observing false-positives and asserting them as null is still a position to take and a contribution to the town (although whether that's actually what was going on here is debateable).

Um, yeah, that's totally what I did.

Sorry, would you mind clarifying if this is sarcasm or not? If you're disagreeing with my assessment I'd like to hear more.

[Krazy]

(Also at misquoting me as Ythan.)

[Umbrage]

--> Although players should point out scummy behavior, observing false-positives and asserting them as null is still a position to take and a contribution to the town (although whether that's actually what was going on here is debateable).

Um, yeah, that's totally what I did.

Sorry, would you mind clarifying if this is sarcasm or not? If you're disagreeing with my assessment I'd like to hear more.

That's pretty much accurate, but you made it sound more smart.

(Also at misquoting me as Ythan.)

All you people look alike to me.

[implosion]

Vote count 1.4:

Xtoxm - 0
Krazy - 1 (DarthYoshi)
Umbrage - 4 (ConSpiracy, Snake Eyes, Vordark, Ythan)
Ythan - 0
ConSpiracy - 0
TheBigLebowski - 2 (Krazy, Umbrage)
Snake Eyes - 0
Vordark - 1 (TheBigLebowski)
Quaroath - 1 (Abelcain)
Abelcain - 0
iamausername - 0
DarthYoshi - 2 (Quaroath, iamausername)
No lynch - 0
Not voting: Xtoxm.

With 12 alive, 7 votes are required to lynch.

Prods: none.

[Ythan]

I disagree that making null points is on par with, in short, relevant ones.

[Quaroath]

Umbrage looks like hes flailing around halfway through page 3 (at this point I’m up to post 64)
There is a lot of backtracking and circular logic in his posts, with a good chunk of contradictions. You ain’t lookin good Umbrage.
I have a strong town feeling towards Snake eyes, and a null read on CS to this point, though CS is a hair over the town line.

Krazy, could you put into words on a post why you want to lynch Ythan? Up until #64 you’ve said squat that isn’t “policy lynch”, if in name only, since you can’t talk about ongoing games. Serious Ythan tunneling going on here. PEDIT: nevermind Reached the explosion of posting and figured it out myself.

Umbrage, you got pretty agro towards people with post #66… capslock ftl? I don’t A.) see what you are saying to Vordak here, and B.) really don’t think GOING ALL CAPLOCKAGRO IS GOING TO HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHATYOU ARE SAYING AND DESIRE TO READ YOUR POSTS. Irony eh?

@Krazy 81, while I do think this is umbrage trying to deflect, you and Ythan have had an… interesting little pat up until this point. Mostly you.

I find the ping pong posting between Krazy and Ythan pretty hardcore personal dispute, over a game dispute. Come on guys and girls, be civil and nice as we lynch people. 34 straigth posts by Krazy and Ythan, mostly @ each other. Is this a record? >_<

@ 119, I’m getting a pretty solid town vibe from Vordak. Solid posts, and very clear in the thought process.
@122/Umbrage. I _ am _so _ not _ feeling _this.

OK, now I'm pissed off.

It's nice that one of Snake's later posts gave you a way to avoid my question, but that still doesn't explain what you thought CS had to gain that Snake didn't when you originally posted that.

It's obvious from his actions Snake wasn't interested in reactions. If he was, he would've pointed out the bad reactions, and attacked other people.

CS's serious votes at that point consisted of the obligatory "Xth vote on anyone in RVS is scummy" vote and your seemingly-OMGUS vote. CS's vote on you was a deliberate third vote. Which one seems like it's more serious?

Fine, it's obvious I can't change your mind on this, but you have to see where I'm coming from. CS' vote on me was not accompanied by any reasoning, or even saying that I'm scum. There is NOTHING there that suggests it's a serious vote. Whereas my case on CS was a true attack.

Nobody else thought there was anything up with the question either. The post was a bandwagon, not a setup. He got the reactions and wagon solely with his vote; the question had nothing to do with it. You're the one searching for a reason to say someone's trying to make you look scummy with an impossible question.

Yes, I realize that NOW, after CS has said the exact same thing. And what is with this whole 'nobody else thought it was scummy' crap? I don't give a shit what the majority thinks, if something strikes me as scummy, I point it out. Only scum try to avoid posting opinions that aren't popular.

Funny that you happened to pull a gambit that makes every single one of your posts look like OMGUS. Especially since your "reasoning" seems to be... well, you like falsely quoting people, right?

YES THAT WAS MY FUCKING MASTER PLAN I NEEDED AN EXCUSE TO OMGUS PEOPLE SO I CREATED THIS GAMBIT BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW HOW WELL OMGUS WORKS AND IT IS SUCH A GOOD THING TO DO AS SCUM.

You obviously do not know what you are talking about. OMGUS is when you vote someone who is voting you SOLELY because they are voting you. You do not PLAN to OMGUS. OMGUS is bad as town AND as scum. Why would I not only WANT to OMGUS, but actually create a plan to provide an excuse to do it?

That being said, you've "proven" absolutely nothing. All you've gotten Snake to say is that he found you more scummy than ConSpiracy - specifically, that he had no scumreads on CS while you were acting pretty scummy. It's also nice to say that your "serious vote" on CS wasn't really serious and you just said it to lay bait for a trap, but that would mean you saying that your vote was serious was also a lie. "Lynch All Liars" is a popular policy for a reason.

Shut up right now, because you clearly haven't BEEN PAYING ATTENTION. Snake ADMITTED that his vote on me was because he found me SCUMMY, which means he was LYING when he said his vote was just to BANDWAGON to get us out of RVS. You want to lynch a LIAR? Lynch him.

And I'm so sorry for pulling that gambit that got us out of RVS and led us to catch LYING SCUM.

If you voted for me to get reactions, why didn't you initially get that I did the same with my vote for you? And why did you unvote that easily when I told the reason for my vote? It just doesn't really add up.

I unvoted because I believed you. I had no reason to disbelieve you. I suppose I should've picked up on your attempt to get reactions, but somehow I didn't think of that.

ONE LAST NOTE: I'm leaning toward Krazy and Ythan being scum together, and doing this shit to try and distract the town from any actual real scumhunting. I haven't read all of their back and forth, and I don't plan on doing so. They are making this thread almost impossible to read. I will say again: KEEP YOUR PERSONAL SHIT OUT OF THIS GOD-DAMNED THREAD!

First, if your post starts off with “I am so pissed off”, you probably shouldn’t be posting because you are going to look like a tool. This is a general theory, don’t road rage, and don’t post rage.
I have a hard time swallowing your constant line about how your play was all a gambit to get everyone past RVS. Baiting yourself is never a good idea, yet you continue to say you did exactly that.

I alo agree with snake’s #134 that you are misrepresenting him with your post.

AKA: ur a hypocrite, but also tl;dr. Usually you can make one criticism or the other, Darth, not both. Please call me a hypocrite; but I also encourage you to actually back up your accusation.

tl;dr is anti-town too. Should we have a "who can be more anti-town" contest?

Someone educate me please, what the heck does tl:dr mean? I haven't seen that before.

Just reached 195. Gonna post this and continue. Don’t expect a whole lot from these posts, but I’m doing due diligence to get caught up.

[Quaroath]

prod avoidance, just finished a 44 hours work weekend fri-sun, will catch up/post when conscious in morning.

Quaroath's last two posts have been placed only to avoid getting prodded and have contained no content. I think he needs some encouragement.

Unvote

Vote: Quaroath

I stopped at #195 for this.

Fair. And deserved. The (what felt like) 5 page explosion while I was at work sunday made it a slog and I put it off.

[Krazy]

tl;dr = too long; didn't read.

Quaroath please update us as to which questions are still relevant when you finish, since it seems you are posting questions that you later figure out yourself.

[Quaroath]

Rereading a couple isos. I have to agree with Ythan that V's #62 is annoying, both to read and to reread.

Holy crap! Did the world implode?

CS says he gets bored of the Umbrage discussion because of the wall posts and also gets bored of my exchange with Ythan; like Darth, basically gives a tl;dr, UNLIKE Darth, goes on to imply that Umbrage et.al is also tl;dr.

I also notice that CS's interest in the game basically seems to drop off simultaneously with V unvoting him.

@CS: Aside from the Umbrage wagon you helped form and then got bored of, I'm not really sure I at this point can characterize you as not also active lurking. Among the Umbrage wagon, if I were to guess that there was someone scum on it (which there is, admittedly, no guarantee), you would be my first guess.

Parts of this post have bothered me for a while, but moreso now that he seems to have ceased actively pursuing the Umbrage wagon:

Think further

OK, so my vote on ConSpiracy is about as serious as you can get for page 1 reads. Xtoxm stands out as odd to me, he didn't random vote, he didn't really say hello or anything, he just answered the questions. I'm not saying it's scum or town, it just looks odd.

Great, post. Are you going to point out things that are scummy or only things that you see as null?

"think further" = make my case for me?

"Great, post. Are you going to point out things that are scummy or only things that you see as null?"

--> Although players should point out scummy behavior, observing false-positives and asserting them as null is still a position to take and a contribution to the town (although whether that's actually what was going on here is debateable).

I would test my theory that CS's interest in the game is directly proportional to the number of votes on him, but I haven't quite gotten all I want out of my vote on TBL yet.

I remember seeing the "think further" post and saying to myself, "It's not that hard to figure it out, I worked it out pretty easy" and now I don't even remember what it was.

After looking back, I think it’s pretty obvious that CS was singling Umbrage out for a reason: That reason? Umbrage said he found RVS meaningless. Who better to target to get past RVS (which would seem to be both peoples goal)

Feel free to correct me CS, but that’s what I got from “think further”

For the record, this is the post the “think further” answer was in response too:

So Umbrage, thoughts on people?

Why me? As I said, I don't consider RVS means much in the way of scum versus town. I really don't think anyone can find scum on page one.

VOTE: ConSpiracy

You singled me out for a reason, but why would you ask for my thoughts when I said I find RVS meaningless?

Think further

Having a scumread =/= necessarily thinking you're scummy.

What is this I don't even

Huh? Rather incomplete sentence there. I'll provide my understanding of what abel was saying though, just because A has a scumread on B, doesn't necessarily equal A thinks B is scummy.

Processing for a few minutes. Will do so Krazy. (@Krazy's last)

[Ythan]

Except it does mean that. That's what it means.

[Quaroath]

Except it does mean that. That's what it means.

That's my inclination too, but it doesn't seem to be what Abelcain was saying.

[Ythan]

There isn't a way to say it that makes sense.

[Quaroath]

@iamausername

Krazy and I are of like mind, that is the next question I was going to ask and one I would also like to hear the answer to.

Count me on this as well, what in particular about DarthYoshi's posting doesn’t seem town to you? I get a decently town vibe from him. You’ve posted 4 times and have clearly stated you think Darth doesn’t look town in his posts. Why?

On that note, RVS vote needs to come off.

unvote

Now to apply some plz answer pressure

vote: iamausername

@vordark: Would you mind sharing your thoughts on Darth Yoshi as well? I’m curious about what you think. Of all the active people he’s the one you’ve had the least involvement/interaction with in my eyes.

@Snake Eyes: in post #191 you say:

Also, I think your assumption that there's scum on the wagon is a bit premature, as there's no way to know if Umbrage is town. I'd even say that given how scummy Umbrage looks, this wagon could have grown a lot faster, if Umbrage was actually town. It would be very easy for scum to add their votes to the Umbrage wagon, if he's town.

I’m not really following the argument you are making here. This seems loaded with WIFOM. Yes it’s easy for scum to add votes if Umbrage is flailtown. It’s also easy for scum to add votes if Umbrage is flailscum. I don’t see how this isn’t null, because it feels so circular.

Are you more or less inclined to think Umbrage is scum based off the speed of the wagon? Why?
Those are the questions I have off the top of my head. I’m sure more will come to the fore

@tom: 2 posts? Please be more involved. Just in prod avoid posts I outdid you (pot, kettle)
@TBL, please break from your “Brothers” play style

[Umbrage]

Quaroath's opinion of me = WAH WAH I DONT LIK CAPZ

I agree with him on some things, not the case with others. But hey, that's life. I've no reason to think he's scum at the moment.

[Vordark]

@vordark: Would you mind sharing your thoughts on Darth Yoshi as well? I’m curious about what you think. Of all the active people he’s the one you’ve had the least involvement/interaction with in my eyes.

He's on my list to ISO this morning, so I'll do him first. His first post brings us a pretty typical RQS and a random vote, as well as notes he'll generally be active. Nothing really stands out there.

@ConSpiracy: Voting a player who already has two RVS votes on them, but without giving a reason for the vote (RVS or otherwise)? Sketch.

Unvote. Vote: ConSpiracy.

@Krazy: I've never played a game with Ythan. Why should we be policy lynching him?

@Quaraoth: The Blazers suck, but Portland rules (I lived there for four years before moving to Bezerkeley). (Cue Fred Armisen singing, "The dream of the '90s is alive in Portland...")

DY's second post (above) starts with the declaration that CS's vote on Umbrage didn't include a reason for the vote and is "sketch". I disagree. Getting a three or four vote wagon on someone early helps us get out of the RVS and into some meaningful discussion. With the "any thoughts" comment CS dropped along with the vote, he's not trying to put suspicion on Umbrage, but rather to get a conversation going. That doesn't seem "sketch" to me, so DY's comment here seems strange.

@Conspiracy--first, why the need to exit us out of RVS? Second, why the need to do so with an unexplained bandwagon vote?

@Snake Eyes--why are you defending Conspiracy so hard?

@Umbrage--do you plan on making a vote at some point that doesn't look like an OMGUS vote?

@Krazy--so you're going to change your reasons for a vote just to keep a vote on a person you don't like? Lamesauce.

@Abelcain--not sure I liked your tactic, but I agree with your assessment of Krazy in #36.

I don't like this post very much. The question "why the need to exit us out of RVS" doesn't vibe as town at all to me. The sooner we're out of RVS and into discussion and debate, the better. Anything that moves us along in that regard is better and I can't think why someone town would disagree. He also reiterates his statement that CS's vote was unexplained.

The next comment, directed at Snake Eyes, accuses him of defending CS. There was nothing in SE's posts that struck me as a "defense" of CS.

The last two comments are both critical of Krazy. Something about the attention DY is giving Krazy rubs me the wrong way. I'll comment on it further as I move through his posts here.

Snake Eyes defends Conspiracy:

I don't understand why you would immediately assume ConSpiracy had some ulterior motives, as asking questions in early game can only help move the game forward.

Snake Eyes sez:

Not so much defending Conspiracy.

Um, right.

Snake Eyes:

The whole idea of a premature bandwagon is a fallacy.

How so?

More Snake Eyes:

There's definitely an unnatural player relation there, and should Umbrage flip scum, I'd start looking for his scumbuddies in xtoxm

Hunting for scumpairs before there have been any flips is junk science.

Also, why do you have a town read on Conspiracy?

This post is longer, so I'll take it in chunks here and below. The first part is DY's case that SE is defending CS. Two quotes and an "Um, right". Again, not a defense. The "Hunting for scumpairs before there have been any flips is junk science" comment is strange as well. SE is talking about what happens "should Umbrage flip scum". It is also natural, and necessary, to look for relationships between the players as early as possible. All in all, it's a suspicious sentence.

Krazy:

What gave you the impression I don't like Ythan?

Your ISO, brief though it is, certainly gives the impression that you don't particularly care for him. If my characterization was inaccurate, my heartiest apologies.

Krazy:

Do you have a problem with my current vote on Ythan?

Yes.

Krazy:

You have no problem with him not voting?

Not as much as you apparently do.

Krazy:

Are you now ignoring both non-votes or being selective?

Neither. Commenting on every single thing is something I have neither the time or inclination to do. Tell me why him not RVSing is scummy. If you want me to hop onto that wagon, convince me.

More about Krazy. The one word or single sentence replies don't really give us anything and have the feel like it's spurring Krazy on. He also notes "Commenting on every single thing is something I have neither the time or inclination to do", but he ends up spending much more time engaging Krazy that I think is reasonable. As in...

@Krazy: Right now, your vote just looks like an attempt to make it look like you weren’t tunneling on Ythan. Which you were. I completely agree that the town should be pressing lurkers to participate, but you still seem to really only care about one lurker.

Krazy:

He completely ignored my query about Ythan, which makes him tunneling already if nothing else

Pot, kettle, black, yada yada yada. Also, I’m basically ignoring posts #84-117, because I don’t care remotely enough about your’s and Ythan’s schoolyard screaming match to read those walls.

I think at this point in the thread, the better course of action was to encourage Krazy to get off the Ythan kick by asking him other questions. This part of the post just strikes me as egging him on. He also "[doesn't] care remotely enough about your's and Ythan's schoolyeard screaming match to read those walls", but he does keep engaging Krazy.

Snake Eyes:

Votes and bandwagons give the discussion context. You'd never get anywhere without votes. Do you not agree?

With votes, sure. There’s a reason RVS exists. But there is also a reason why it is called RVS and not RBS.

Snake Eyes:

Just a slight townie vibe, from his initial questioning of Umbrage.

What specifically about his questioning of Umbrage gave you a townie vibe?

Vordark:

Vordark: Why wouldn't we want to move out of RVS and into meaningful discussion?

Hadn’t heard from a number of players at that point, but I think this is a more fast-paced game than I was either feeling or anticipating, so at this point, I don’t really care. Also—what exactly are you seeing as a chainsaw? You’re saying my behavior is ‘odd’ and not really saying anything as to why.

The first part of this snippet and the first sentence of the last paragraph strike me as odd when taken together. The first bit remains critical of CS's early bandwagon vote on Umbrage, but the sentence I indicated appears to back off that opinion with "I think this is a more fast-paced game than I was either feeling or anticipating". I'm wondering which it is.

Anway, later in the same post...

@Town as a whole--though I was uneasy with CS’s vote on Umbrage, he hasn’t done anything after that to really set off my scumdar, so my read on him is mostly neutral. My vote is better served elsewhere atm.

Unvote. Vote: Krazy.

Your play so far has been hellaciously anti-town, regardless of your alignment.

I think any vote outside of the RVS needs at least a few words of explanation as to why you are voting

for

someone, but I find it suspicious when someone makes a show of why they are taking it

off

of someone when they move it. It's worrying about appearances and that's something more likely to come from scum than town.

Next up...

Wow, you people talk a lot.

Krazy:

AKA: ur a hypocrite, but also tl;dr. Usually you can make one criticism or the other, Darth, not both

Why not both?

Krazy:

but I also encourage you to actually back up your accusation.

Do you really want me to compile a list of every single player who saw the irony in you making a tunneling accusation?

Krazy:

tl;dr is anti-town too.

Tl:dr had less to do with it. I didn’t read those posts because I like feeling happy about life.

Krazy:

Should we have a "who can be more anti-town" contest?

No. I’m pretty sure you’d kick my ass.

Krazy:

but is your case ever going to be anything other than tl;dr?

My motives for voting you also included the tunneling on Ythan (including, at that point, no desire to scumhunt on anyone else) as well as suggesting a policy lynch for no reason at the outset of D1. All in all, very anti-town play.

Krazy:

How about this Darth: Instead of QQing about my quote war with him, why don't you ask him a few more questions yourself? Again, both you and Ythan can QQ about me "tunneling" on him, but that doesn't excuse you from not engaging him at all.

I did. I asked him when we could expect non-Krazy related content from him, and he basically shrugged off the question. Which I didn’t like. I’m paying attention to everyone, not just you.

All of that being said—I actually am liking your attempts to scumhunt on the lurkers, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if there is a scum or two there, just hanging out while the town points fingers at one another. Your responses to me are such that I am fine with my vote remaining where it is for the time being, however.

This is a lot of Krazy-baiting. Krazy has actually started to settle down and contribute something. DY's reply was unnecessary and I think anyone that really wanted to focus the town would have let Krazy's comments slide, or at least tried more to defuse the situation than to egg him on, which this appears to do. He drops a sentence as props on Krazy's hunting of the lurkers, but makes sure he explains that his vote is staying on Krazy because of his responses. I read that last sentence as encouraging Krazy to keep engaging.

To summarize: Some of what DY is critical of I actually read as pro-town (moving us out of RVS, looking for relationships between players), he spent too much time FoSing CS's bandwagon on Umbrage while saying CS gave no reason for it, appeared to backtrack on that in the same post he continued to defend it and looks like he's trying to keep the Krazy train running. I also don't like how he felt the need to tell us why he moved his vote off Umbrage when he voted for Krazy.

So, I'm suspicious of DarthYoshi at this point.

[iamausername]

@Town as a whole--though I was uneasy with CS’s vote on Umbrage, he hasn’t done anything after that to really set off my scumdar, so my read on him is mostly neutral. My vote is better served elsewhere atm.

Unvote. Vote: Krazy.

Your play so far has been hellaciously anti-town, regardless of your alignment.

I think any vote outside of the RVS needs at least a few words of explanation as to why you are voting

for

someone, but I find it suspicious when someone makes a show of why they are taking it

off

of someone when they move it. It's worrying about appearances and that's something more likely to come from scum than town.

You're wise beyond your years, Vordark. I was more concerned about the fact that he is self-admittedly voting Krazy for reasons that have nothing to do with his alignment, but this may be an even better observation.

[DarthYoshi]

Krazy:

UNLIKE Darth, goes on to imply that Umbrage et.al is also tl;dr.

I noticed this too. I don’t know why the Umbrage-related material is tl:dr. The caps rage makes it not pleasant reading either, but with a wagon that size that quickly, attention should be paid. I forget who said it, but I agree that Umbrage flailing is kind of a null tell, as town are apt to get that frustrated too; I am more interested in his voting and occasional omissions in replying to his accusers.

@Umbrage: Not liking that you're ignoring my press about Snake Eyes' reply to you.

Also, I do think my vote and dialogue with Krazy has indeed run its course. Krazy is actually helping the town now. I think I can and should re-deploy my vote. (ZOMG, he's drawing attention to his vote again! Obvscum! Obvscum!)

Unvote. Vote: Xotxm.

Lurking makes me a sad panda.

Now, for Vordark’s ISO wall of me…no way around it, my reply is also going to be a wall. My apologies in advance. All quotes come from Vordark unless otherwise noted.

Summary for tl:dr folks: Vordark thinks I've spent too much time engaging Krazy, and that I have some unhelpful beliefs about mafia theory. I think that putting pressure on Krazy was the right move, and he is in fact now behaving in a much more townish manner. I don't think I was unduly calling attention to my votes; I think saying my read has changed on someone who I had my vote on is a fairly normal thing to do.

I don't like this post very much. The question "why the need to exit us out of RVS" doesn't vibe as town at all to me. The sooner we're out of RVS and into discussion and debate, the better. Anything that moves us along in that regard is better and I can't think why someone town would disagree.

I already explained my reasoning—that we hadn’t heard from much of the town when we exited RVS. Do you actually want to respond to that, as opposed to openly supposing why someone would ask about the need to exit RVS?

The first part is DY's case that SE is defending CS. Two quotes and an "Um, right". Again, not a defense.

You say it isn’t without explaining why. I say it is without explaining why (although I feel like a sentence that attempts to attribute town motive to a person kinda constitutes defending them…odd, I know). Looks like we’re tied.

The "Hunting for scumpairs before there have been any flips is junk science" comment is strange as well. SE is talking about what happens "should Umbrage flip scum". It is also natural, and necessary, to look for relationships between the players as early as possible. All in all, it's a suspicious sentence.

Yeah, there totally is not any scum motivation in insinuating relationships between players. Totally not a way to tee up future (mis)lynches.

I personally think that hypothesizing about relationships so early in the game needs to be taken with a few grains of salt. Associative tells only become tells usually when flips have occurred. Meta me, and you’ll see I hold to this belief as town.

He also notes "Commenting on every single thing is something I have neither the time or inclination to do", but he ends up spending much more time engaging Krazy that I think is reasonable.

If my vote is on someone because I’m scumhunting them, I’m probably going to spend a little more time replying to their posts, no?

Also, this is just fluff. What is “reasonable” is often completely subjective. I’m clearly engaging other players as well, if you want to accuse me of tunneling, then just come out and say it.

This part of the post just strikes me as egging him on.

So why aren’t you calling out the other umpteen players who pointed out said irony?

but he does keep engaging Krazy.

So…what you’re saying is, putting concerted pressure on a player who has been behaving anti-town is bad? Because that’s sure what it looks like you’re saying.

The first part of this snippet and the first sentence of the last paragraph strike me as odd when taken together. The first bit remains critical of CS's early bandwagon vote on Umbrage, but the sentence I indicated appears to back off that opinion with "I think this is a more fast-paced game than I was either feeling or anticipating". I'm wondering which it is.

How exactly are those sentiments mutually exclusive?

I think any vote outside of the RVS needs at least a few words of explanation as to why you are voting forsomeone, but I find it suspicious when someone makes a show of why they are taking it off of someone when they move it. It's worrying about appearances and that's something more likely to come from scum than town.

So, when I don’t think someone is as scummy as I originally thought, I should just not mention that to the town? That’s just bad play right there. Especially if you think it is important for players to be looking for relationships and connections (which you clearly do). If that’s the case, then the town needs to know where I stand on the guy I just had my vote on.

DY's reply was unnecessary and I think anyone that really wanted to focus the town would have let Krazy's comments slide,

So, when the person I am accusing of being scum encourages me to “back up my accusation,” I should instead let it slide?

Iamusername:

I was more concerned about the fact that he is self-admittedly voting Krazy for reasons that have nothing to do with his alignment

So, using my vote to try to determine if someone’s anti-town play is scummy or just bad town is…bad? Ooooooookay. BTW, do you actually plan on weighing in on the rest of the game? You’re clearly reading the thread, but are saying very little.

[iamausername]

You’re clearly reading the thread, but are saying very little.

So is everyone else, they're just using more words to do so.

[Vordark]

I don't like this post very much. The question "why the need to exit us out of RVS" doesn't vibe as town at all to me. The sooner we're out of RVS and into discussion and debate, the better. Anything that moves us along in that regard is better and I can't think why someone town would disagree.

I already explained my reasoning—that we hadn’t heard from much of the town when we exited RVS. Do you actually want to respond to that, as opposed to openly supposing why someone would ask about the need to exit RVS?

I already responded and pointed out the contradiction I see. You even quote my response below. It is disingenuous to claim that I have not.

The first part is DY's case that SE is defending CS. Two quotes and an "Um, right". Again, not a defense.

You say it isn’t without explaining why. I say it is without explaining why (although I feel like a sentence that attempts to attribute town motive to a person kinda constitutes defending them…odd, I know). Looks like we’re tied.

I have already explained this too. Interesting.

The "Hunting for scumpairs before there have been any flips is junk science" comment is strange as well. SE is talking about what happens "should Umbrage flip scum". It is also natural, and necessary, to look for relationships between the players as early as possible. All in all, it's a suspicious sentence.

Yeah, there totally is not any scum motivation in insinuating relationships between players. Totally not a way to tee up future (mis)lynches.

I personally think that hypothesizing about relationships so early in the game needs to be taken with a few grains of salt. Associative tells only become tells usually when flips have occurred. Meta me, and you’ll see I hold to this belief as town.

Your first bit is obviously committing the fallacy of the excluded middle. Also your comment that looking at relationships so early in the game "needs to be taken with a few grains of salt" is backing off your earlier, much stronger statement that it is "junk science". Discussing associative tells before a flip is useful, if for no other reason than making it easier to pick out after a flip.

I would also like to point out that your noting SE's "defense" of CS is no different. You are trying to put a focus on the relationship there every time you call it a "defense", and every time you press SE on the point. Why is it scum hunting when you do it, junk science when others do it?

He also notes "Commenting on every single thing is something I have neither the time or inclination to do", but he ends up spending much more time engaging Krazy that I think is reasonable.

If my vote is on someone because I’m scumhunting them, I’m probably going to spend a little more time replying to their posts, no?

That defense only works if we believe your motive is scum hunting. I am unconvinced at this point.

Also, this is just fluff. What is “reasonable” is often completely subjective. I’m clearly engaging other players as well, if you want to accuse me of tunneling, then just come out and say it.

I am not accusing you of tunneling. I am questioning whether your engaging of Krazy is an attempt to keep the distraction going. I believe I made that clear. It is interesting that you are trying to re-frame it as an accusation of tunneling.

This part of the post just strikes me as egging him on.

So why aren’t you calling out the other umpteen players who pointed out said irony?

My pointing out your behavior now does not preclude my pointing out the behavior of others if I see the need once I have ISO'd them. It is interesting that you are asking this question as a defense when I've made it clear that you are my first ISO of the day, not my only.

but he does keep engaging Krazy.

So…what you’re saying is, putting concerted pressure on a player who has been behaving anti-town is bad? Because that’s sure what it looks like you’re saying.

Again, this statement only works if we assume you have a town motive. An equally viable explanation for the events is that you are attempting to keep the Krazy train running as a distraction.

The first part of this snippet and the first sentence of the last paragraph strike me as odd when taken together. The first bit remains critical of CS's early bandwagon vote on Umbrage, but the sentence I indicated appears to back off that opinion with "I think this is a more fast-paced game than I was either feeling or anticipating". I'm wondering which it is.

How exactly are those sentiments mutually exclusive?

I believe that is self-evident. Can you explain your reasoning in that post more fully?

I think any vote outside of the RVS needs at least a few words of explanation as to why you are voting forsomeone, but I find it suspicious when someone makes a show of why they are taking it off of someone when they move it. It's worrying about appearances and that's something more likely to come from scum than town.

So, when I don’t think someone is as scummy as I originally thought, I should just not mention that to the town? That’s just bad play right there. Especially if you think it is important for players to be looking for relationships and connections (which you clearly do). If that’s the case, then the town needs to know where I stand on the guy I just had my vote on.

Scum worry more about appearances than town, and are much more likely to feel the need to explain the "little things" than town is.

[iamausername]

Just out of interest, Vordark, why are you voting Umbrage over Yoshi again? Do try to keep your answer as brief as you can, if you don't mind.

[Vordark]

Just out of interest, Vordark, why are you voting Umbrage over Yoshi again? Do try to keep your answer as brief as you can, if you don't mind.

cuz

[Umbrage]

There was nothing in SE's posts that struck me as a "defense" of CS.

I don't want to get in the middle of this, but I really disagree here. Noticed how SE practically answered for CS when I questioned CS. I see nothing that would make SE be so certain CS' motives were pure when he asked me that question. I've asked him why before, and have received no answer.

Did you just miss this or what? What do you think of this response?

This ties in with what I was saying above. The quote in question is here:

There's little scum motivation to do so, but there is a pretty clear town motive.

This was before CS said why he voted and questioned me. He seemed to know what CS was thinking, which I didn't at that point, and I don't see how he could've. Basically, he assumed that CS' motives were town, when I had explicitly shown how they could be scummy. He says there was little reason to suspect the motives were scummy, but I had just outlined why they could've been. Even if he disagreed, he had to at least see why I would think that, so he should've at least acknowledged there was a possible scum motive. If he felt I was in error, then he could've argued why I was in error by disputing my reasoning.

CS, at that point, had not shown why his question was from a pro-town perspective, whereas I had argued why it was from an anti-town perspective. So why would he hold that CS was town and I was scum at that point? If he didn't see a scum motivation, that meant he either didn't understand my argument or considered it invalid. If he didn't understand it, he should've asked me to explain, and if he thought it was a bad argument, he should've shown why it was bad. But his attack on me is based on nothing but the fact that he considered CS town, and I can't understand why he would think that so early in the game.

[Umbrage]

Just out of interest, Vordark, why are you voting Umbrage over Yoshi again? Do try to keep your answer as brief as you can, if you don't mind.

cuz i wanna bandwagon

FTFY

[Vordark]

Hi, everyone. Time for some obligatory opening questions--

What time zone are you in?

RVS or RQS? Why?

What is your experience level with Mafia?

How active can we expect you to be?

I am in GMT. I care not for RVS, and I have not heard of RQS, thought if it's what I think it is I have no problem with that. I am have several years of experience, 30+ games. My activity levels vary considerably, but you can probably expect a post once every couple days.

I'm getting mostly town vibes from the more active players, with the sole exception of Ythan, whose reactions to the assault from Krazy look a bit too complacent for what I would expect from a townie.

I can understand RL only allowing activity here "once every couple of days", but these are the only posts from Xtoxm.

@Xtoxm—what about Ythan’s exchange looked complacent for him? I don’t know what ‘complacent’ Ythan looks like versus ‘not complacent’ Ythan. Also, thoughts on the Umbrage wagon, pleeze.

@Xtoxm - when next you return can you answer this question? Can you also highlight for us a few posts or statements that have lead to your remark "I'm getting mostly town vibes from the more active players"?

[Umbrage]

@ Vordark:

So, let me get this straight.

You think DarthYoshi is scum.

You keep your vote on me.

DarthYoshi votes Xtoxm.

You immediately make a post that quotes Xtoxm, and asks for more content from him.

I smell bussing buddies.

FoS: DarthYoshi and Vordark