A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Twilight Sparkle]

[TS05]

Thoughts on Feysal

On Feysal, we’re finding his early play pretty scummy.  He flutters around the use of the Governor, saying he wants a strong townie player to have the power and use it if needed. (Post 282) Yet in post 325 he commends Xtoxm for his suggestion of throwing the power away “despite not agreeing with him." Unlike LMP, we’re not sold on this being a Stark connection.  (Link me to a game in which you’ve seen similar buddying of someone’s own team mate if you want to convince me.  Am I the only one who thinks scum never actually buddy their

buddies

?  The whole tell is that they either suck up to a townie, get town cred by defending a mislynch, or make them deliberately look bad after a flip.  On the contrary, I find most scum have a phobia of saying anything good about their buddies, particularly unprompted.)  But even now I can’t understand why that would be a good idea to Feysal when he wants the power in play.  It is the complete opposite stance to his own.

Day one is also filled with an early and somewhat strong defense of Cow.  Considering how little we knew about Cow and his powers at the time I don’t really like this.  It feels like a heavy handed attempt to grab at some protown cred upon a possible lynch flip.  Combine this with his early day two defense of Bunnylover and I think there is a pattern here of a player over defending others in situations that don’t really warrant it.  Just feels off in how he goes about it.  Like he knows these are two possible mislynches and wants to take the chance to scold the town and look good in the process.

However, once LMP and MoI start attacking him, Feysal comes into his own and provides a very good defense of himself.  It might be because LMP’s Locke/Zor/DGB tell is pretty weak in my opinion and MoI is attacking him over semantics which

never

ends well.  He comes out of this looking townie, but it’s not quite enough to wipe away all his early play. Still, we definitely are not convinced by LMP’s accusations, nor by his vehemence that anyone (e.g., dana) who finds another player more suspicious than Feysal is suspect. There is certainly some scumminess around Feysal, but it’s far from definitive. (It’s worth noting, though, that LMP’s dedication looks very townie, and it’s likely that he’s telling the truth about being responsible for Chess’s death.)

We still think our Zden case is much better than a possible Feysal lynch, however we are willing to switch our vote should it come to that.
---

[TS06]

Thoughts on Magua

                        
So, after ruminations, I've decided that I don't believe Zdenek is scum. Twilight's case on Zdenek is mostly "Here's a post-by-post analysis, and here's the scummy things I found" without tying it into, eg, actions that were taken and associations with already flipped scum. Rereading Zdenek's D1, I can see the possibility of the bus (unlike with Raivann), but it's far more likely that he's simply not scum.

My preferred lynch is Twilight Sparkle.
UNVOTE: Nexus
VOTE: Twilight Sparkle

I will vote Feysal near deadline to avoid a no lynch if necessary, but I'd rather by far lynch Twilight.

Oh I’ve got so many problems problems with this right here.

I had some reservations with your post - the unpushed vote that sat alone on V/LA Nexus seem pretty much guaranteed not to go anywhere. I got the vibe that, “I expect the other scum to jump off of Twilight, and I want to be first. But I guess I can slide back on if needed." Lo and behold, you’re back - but why, exactly?

Let’s look at the situation in the post where you unvoted:

Other than that, I like the case...

but I'm not convinced by it

. I could buy Zdenek as bussing diddin D1 where I can't buy diddin bussing Raivann. Twilight's suspicion of Zdenek is at least set-up for the last few days. But, I retain suspicion of Twilight Sparkle nonetheless. Call it lingering suspicion.

You’ve put your vote on us, because you don’t believe Zdenek is scum. But you

never did

. Your reasoning for putting your vote back on us makes no sense.

As well, there’s a giant elephant in the room with “tying it to other players" - the Feysal case. You have yet to say what you think of it (you said you didn’t understand it, it was clarified, and you subsequently fell silent.) This would seem to be right up your alley, and yet you’re not voting or nominating Feysal - instead, you’re both voting AND nominating us.

Taken together, these suggest that you do NOT hunt for the most likely scum, but instead vote for the person who least convinced you that someone else is scum. This is quite obviously senseless (and even if this was your criterion, what of the players who’ve pushed no case at all)?

Your hop back on to us seems, to put it charitably, insincere. You don’t think Zdenek is scum. Swell. Why do you think

we’re

scum? And why isn’t Feysal?

[Twilight Sparkle]

[TS07]

A Public Service Announcement

As a final note, a PSA: please, no one ever say, “Your X is noted" ever ever again. It’s the ultimate in passive-aggressive snipes, and it’s a little corrosive to see so much of it in the town. If you wish to accuse someone of, say, an associative case, then

do

so - but more often than not “X is noted" is used in lieu of a real accusation. The implication is that this isn’t actually a point worth pursuing, but it’s enough to heavyhandedly hint at. If you ever find yourself posting “Your X is noted", delete it and instead type it as a scumtell, e.g “Your defense of X seems to suggest that you two are scumbuddies" instead of “Your defense of X is noted." If it makes sense written that way, post it. If it doesn’t, don’t.

The preceding posts were written in google docs by all three of us. It was written over a period over two days (with the exception of the MoI bit, which started Saturday.) Though we’ve all had a chance to look at everything, if you’re curious as to “main authors", it goes something like:

[TS01 - Points against Zdenek] - Hito/Mina
[TS02 - Response to MoI] - Mina
[TS03 - Response to xvart] - Hito
[TS04 - Response to LynchMePls] - Mina
[TS05 - Thoughts re: Feysal] - Sotty/Mina
[TS06 - Thoughts re: Magua] - Hito
[TS07 - A public service announcement] - ALL OF US SERIOUSLY STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT

Please remain in your seats until the wall has come to a complete stop. Thank you for choosing Twilight Sparkle for all of your wallposting needs.

PS. Forgot to add this into the thoughts re: Feysal, but we're very eager to hear his reaction to Setael 1470.

[Twilight Sparkle]

And some personal bits:

Cow, I've got nothing against a Thor vote and you know it. But deadline is awfully soon, and your ISO 54 suggests that you've given serious thought to Feysal and zdenek wagons. Any possibility you can wiggle around your post restriction and give us your insight as to why both of those wagons are inferior to Thor?

Kast, you're working awfully hard to drive us off the zdenek wagon. But I see you called us "wasted voters" while NOT naming anyone else on the zdenek wagon as wasting their vote. Why is that?

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 2.20

Twilight Sparkle (5) MagnaofIllusion, Benmage, Raivann, Zdenek, Magua
Bunnylover (1) Ghostlin
Ghostlin (1) DTMaster
Thor665 (2) Shadow1psc, hasdgfas

Feysal (6) LynchMePls, Setael, Locke Lamora, Kast, xvart, Nexus

Zdenek (5) Twilight Sparkle, Bunnylover, Feysal, Danakillsu, DrippingGoofball


Not voting (1) Thor665

With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. No majority at deadline and there'll be no lynch.

Envoy to the Eyrie

[/u]

Bunnylover (9) MagnaofIllusion, LynchMePls, Nexus, hasdgfas, Setael, Locke Lamora, Kast, Danakillsu, xvart

Raivann (3) Bunnylover, Ghostlin, Feysal
Thor665 (4) Zdenek, Benmage, Twilight Sparkle, DrippingGoofball
Nexus (1) Raivann,
xvart (1) DTMaster
Twilight Sparkle (1) Magua

Not nominating (2) Shadow1psc, Thor665

With 21 alive it takes 11 to sent someone to the Eyrie

* Kast is on V/la.
* Any mistakes in the VC point them out
*The deadline can be found here.

[Thor665]

Also, we're less than a week from deadline so all of these people:

danakillsu (1) Kast
Ghostlin (1) DTMaster
Nexus (1) Magua
Not voting (1) Thor665

are doing it wrong.

I am, I apologize. Yesterday was uber crazy, I'll finish the read ups I need and get out a vote either this evening or sometime tomorrow. If not I'll request replacement - and I made a vow never to need to replace out of a game and I don't like breaking vows.

[LimMePls]

@LMP: Yes, Feysal did have interactions with them.
But thats the problem. He distances his self with one and befriends the other. As scum wouldn't he distance himself from both?
Didn't other people find Diddin scummy?
The xtoxm post is interesting as I can see why a scum player would say that. If Feysal is scum, then it would make sense for him to say it in case town does want to get rid of the governor power he can joined town by that post and if town wanted it on a pro-townie player he can go that route as well.

><

Look, obviously the scum aren't going to treat all of their buddies the exact same way, that would be like leaving a giant road map to finding their team if they ever flipped. So Feysal treating diddin one way and Xtoxm another is TERRIBLE reason to assume that means Feysal is town. If you look at both of those interactions without the others, they look like scummy interactions. Both of them have clearly pro-Stark agendas. Add them together, and you have a player with 2 suspicious connections to KNOWN STARKS. That is REALLY GOOD EVIDENCE OF A LINK.

Again, what specific evidence against Zdenek is as solid as the very clear points that connect Feysal with 2 Starks?

As for why Zdenek > Feysal, I believe its because Zdenek is trying to take advantage of everyone saying that TS isn't as strong a force as they should be and is trying to get rid of them before they become the pro-townie force they can be. Zdenek has responded to every one of TS post saying that is has a negative effect or its just plain scummy. Zdenek been tunneling TS.

"You believe scum-Zdenek would do this stuff" is all well and good. It's great that you are formulating opinions. What doesn't make sense to me is how you see your "belief" as somehow more profound than the actual proof sitting in front of us that is clear as day for anyone to read that FEYSAL HAS BLATANT SCUMMY LOOKING CONNECTIONS WITH THE ONLY TWO FLIPPED STARKS.

So because Zdenek is voting and nominating YOUR town reads, he must be scum? And its so scummy that it negates the BLATANT connections that Feysal has to TWO SCUM FLIPS?

dana is scum.

ZOMG! I THINK DANA IS WRONG SO HE MUST BE SCUM, RIGHT?
Cut it out, man, you're better than that.

This is so hilarious because THIS IS EXACTLY THE THINKING YOU ARE USING, not me. Your exact explanation for your thoughts on Zdenek were that he was "voting and nominating two of my town reads". Which means YOU THINK HE IS SCUM FOR DISAGREEING WITH YOU. To boot, you confess a town read of Benmage, despite the fact that Benmage was voting and nominating THE EXACT SAME AS ZDENEK. So you have a double standard. It's ok for Benmage to vote/nominate in a way you don't like, but not Zdenek.

@Ghostlin/DTMaster/Shadow/TS/Thor-
Your vote is currently wasted. We're 3-4 days from deadline. Please pick a lynch so we have time for a claim and time to evaluate.

My point exactly when I mentioned this days ago. Note that Ghostlin has since posted and is continuing to leave his vote stranded on a useless wagon.

While I agree now that I've had an inordinate amount of mistakes this time, you can actually look at my scum games. I don't make more mistakes in them.

Cut it out man, you're better than this.

Thereafter he has ignored my posts. How am I to defend myself if my opponent refuses to even talk to me?

Because I realized that trying to convince YOU that you are scum is POINTLESS. I have not dropped the case, I'm simply taking my case to people who can actually be persuaded.

Dana is now town

ARE YOU READING THE SAME GAME THAT I AM!?!?!?

Hold on. This is not what I expected at all. You soft claimed a PR, which is why I originally moved my vote. Once I became more sure you're scum, I expected a big fancy fake PR claim from you. If your claim won't help you like you say, then why did you say this:

This now makes me feel much better about Setael's unvote. If you thought he was claiming a PR, then I can understand your wanting to leave the wagon, and your resistance to my questions on why you were leaving the wagon. IGMEOY still though.

I’ve never played with Zdenek before. Do you have town and scum meta on him, for comparison’s sake?

Here are the 3 games I was referring to:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=15282
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=15717
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83&start=0

On recollection, I thought he was mislynched in all of them, but looking at Vanilla Town now, I see he wasn't in that game. I have been involved in leading mislynches on the slot. I don't think I have scum games, but that does not refute my point. My point is that he is often an easy target for scum looking to mislynch. So I'm viewing the case with skepticism since it came conveniently when you were being wagonned and needed an easy target. None of your points against him look as solid as the points against Feysal.

On Feysal, we’re finding his early play pretty scummy. He flutters around the use of the Governor, saying he wants a strong townie player to have the power and use it if needed. (Post 282) Yet in post 325 he commends Xtoxm for his suggestion of throwing the power away “despite not agreeing with him." Unlike LMP, we’re not sold on this being a Stark connection. (Link me to a game in which you’ve seen similar buddying of someone’s own team mate if you want to convince me. Am I the only one who thinks scum never actually buddy their buddies? The whole tell is that they either suck up to a townie, get town cred by defending a mislynch, or make them deliberately look bad after a flip. On the contrary, I find most scum have a phobia of saying anything good about their buddies, particularly unprompted.) But even now I can’t understand why that would be a good idea to Feysal when he wants the power in play. It is the complete opposite stance to his own.

Day one is also filled with an early and somewhat strong defense of Cow. Considering how little we knew about Cow and his powers at the time I don’t really like this. It feels like a heavy handed attempt to grab at some protown cred upon a possible lynch flip. Combine this with his early day two defense of Bunnylover and I think there is a pattern here of a player over defending others in situations that don’t really warrant it. Just feels off in how he goes about it. Like he knows these are two possible mislynches and wants to take the chance to scold the town and look good in the process.

However, once LMP and MoI start attacking him, Feysal comes into his own and provides a very good defense of himself. It might be because LMP’s Locke/Zor/DGB tell is pretty weak in my opinion and MoI is attacking him over semantics which never ends well. He comes out of this looking townie, but it’s not quite enough to wipe away all his early play. Still, we definitely are not convinced by LMP’s accusations, nor by his vehemence that anyone (e.g., dana) who finds another player more suspicious than Feysal is suspect. There is certainly some scumminess around Feysal, but it’s far from definitive. (It’s worth noting, though, that LMP’s dedication looks very townie, and it’s likely that he’s telling the truth about being responsible for Chess’s death.)

We still think our Zden case is much better than a possible Feysal lynch, however we are willing to switch our vote should it come to that.

None of this addresses the very strong distancing that was going on with diddin yesterday. Isn't that pretty damning evidence of scum? Repeated statements of "diddin is scum, but..." seem so blatantly scummy given diddin's flip it's sick. I seriously don't understand how people aren't seeing this.

Also, in specific:

(Link me to a game in which you’ve seen similar buddying of someone’s own team mate if you want to convince me. Am I the only one who thinks scum never actually buddy their buddies? The whole tell is that they either suck up to a townie, get town cred by defending a mislynch, or make them deliberately look bad after a flip. On the contrary, I find most scum have a phobia of saying anything good about their buddies, particularly unprompted.)

The point is that Feysal felt the need to post about Xtoxm's suggestion at all. As he said, he clearly felt the suggestion was sub-optimal, since he felt that the governor should not be burned, so why did the post need to be made at all? Also, the language of "despite only 1 post" is clearly a subtle defense of Xtoxm's not posting.

By itself is it strong evidence of Feysal-scum? No, not really. But when added with the very strong scummy interactions with diddin, it makes it fairly strong circumstantial evidence that Feysal is connected with the Starks. Add on top the D1 suggestion that there was only 1 scum team, that he then back tracked under pressure, but then re-asserted when D2 started, and the whole thing stinks. In clearly succinct points:

Feysal has:

• Connections to both flipped Starks
  
• Statements that read like informed minority
  
• Backtracking of said statements, which reads like a consciousness of guilt.

I see nothing in the Zdenek case that looks this compelling. The Zdenek case reads more like a case of "Zdenek is a poor player" than "Zdenek is scum".

[LimMePls]

TOWN
Benmage
MagnaOfIllusion
Hasdgfas
Locke Lamora
Magua
Kast
xvart
Setael
Nexus
Zdenek
Shadow1psc
DTMaster
Raivann
Thor665
DrippingGoofball
Danakillsu
Ghostlin
Twilight Sparkle
Bunnylover
Feysal
SCUM

[danakillsu]

This is so hilarious because THIS IS EXACTLY THE THINKING YOU ARE USING, not me. Your exact explanation for your thoughts on Zdenek were that he was "voting and nominating two of my town reads". Which means YOU THINK HE IS SCUM FOR DISAGREEING WITH YOU. To boot, you confess a town read of Benmage, despite the fact that Benmage was voting and nominating THE EXACT SAME AS ZDENEK. So you have a double standard. It's ok for Benmage to vote/nominate in a way you don't like, but not Zdenek.

I don't think he is scum for disagreeing with me. I think he is scum for voting town. There's a difference. Obviously, this game is based on opinion. So my townreads are not town to anyone else, necessarily. But scum is more likely to vote for town, and he's voting for town. You think I'm scum because I'm not voting for the person in this game you think is scummiEST. That's not a scumtell. If you want to call it a double standard, you can go right ahead. The fact of the matter is, it WOULD be scummy for either of them, but Benmage is already town. Zdenek is not already town, so he's scum.

[Bunnylover]

@LMP: Thats the problem. If Feysal is town, he is not going to know who he is agreeing with and who he is arguing with.
Should we lynch you because you pushed Feysal lynch hard and denied other lynches if Feysal flips town?
No, because if you are town you assume the person your lynching is scum.

Did you read the Zdenek case?
Your telling me that you don't see that Zdenek was hard tunneling Twilight Sparkle and trying to make their post sound scummy even if they contradict himself?
I could go through TS entire case and pick each point that I like, but basically I would be copying and pasting their case.

I don't think your going to persuade me to join the Feysal wagon, sorry to frustrate you .

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes I'm really asking. It seems to me like the case on Feysal is better. Can you list the points against each and then explain why the TS read is stronger? At least so much stronger that you don't seem to even be entertaining a Feysal vote over TS, despite your continued noting of clearly scummy behavior from Feysal.

I think that we can chock this up to a case of “Home-grown” versus ‘Purchased”. I think both cases have merit and are strong. Frankly I think the TS case is stronger simply because I put it together myself and I’m guessing to some degree you feel the same about the Feysal case.

I wasn’t entertaining a switch of votes since at that point TS was the leading wagon. I certainly am in the group that will switch to prevent a No-Lynch.

In looking at the countdown I suppose I can’t realistically wait

UNVOTE: Twilight
VOTE: Feysal

--

Your #2 here seems to indicate that if we find anyone scummy that is not on Benmage's list you think we should just keep it to ourselves since it's a waste of time to vote them. Is this true?

Not at all. If Bunny was my number 1 suspect I’d be pressuring and voting him regardless of the ‘ban’. I have been questioning you to see how much you were willing to hide behind the Benmage Ban which I think some people are using as a crutch.

@Anyone who has played in a game with BL before: Has she made comments like this in those games about being an idiot and not trusting her reads?

Yes, unfortunately. I’ve seen him do it on multiple occasions as Town. That’s one of the reasons I don’t find questioning him about it is fruitful. My suspicions of him stem from his ‘distancing’ from the Zoraster wagon and other relational play.

This is a pretty hypocritical response considering your surprise that I'm not voting BL when she's clearly not my #1 scum read.

From reading it wasn’t clear to me that BL wasn’t your Number 1 suspect.

--

The obvious move is to first make the case on the player who is more objectively scummy, we find more deserving of a vote, we don’t consistently change our mind on, and isn’t on Benmage’s insta-governor list.

I don’t see how there is any difference in objective scummines between someone who you “have reserverations the size of a small continent, whose every post raises alarm bells, and you are shocked anyone considers Town” and someone who “virtually claimed scum”. Your description of me is just a more wordy version of your description of Zdenek. The only part of that explanation that holds much water is my appearance on Benmage's list.

Your attacks on us, on the other hand, felt more as though you were capitalizing on Magua’s and Ben’s objections with us and trying to get a potential threat lynched early. I also think your “soft attacks" argument was bullshit used to justify turning every objection to your play around on us (hence why I’m so sceptical of Zdenek thinking that was the SELLING point for him on the Twilight Sparkle).

What? I’m capitalizing on others' suspicions? You yourself later say that it looks like I’ve stopped “trying to learn your alignment”. You’ve gotten it into your head that I am scum and are doing just the same thing you accuse me of – taking every post and filtering it through a filter of “MoI must be scum”. For the record my questioning of your slot didn’t magically appear Day 2. ISOs clearly demonstrate this.

Re: GreyICE, remember this was before his flip in BotW, and I’d thought overaggressive emotional play from him was a towntell.

As Mod of said game I had full knowledge of Grey’s play as scum there. It is one of the reasons why I found him suspect here.

If you are scum, I’d expect you to prefer attacking the player whose play is “wackier" than someone who’d likely be a hard lynch (well, we were SUPPOSED to be a hard lynch <_<).)

What? You’d expect me to be targeting “wackier” players if I was scum yet you also suspect me me of being scum for attacking you to take out a strong potential threat. Which is it?

So which is it? You want us to avoid defending ourselves and just scumhunt? Or do you want us to concentrate all our energy into “addressing your concerns"? (As a side note, I love the arrogance implicit in “Stop playing the game and address more of MY concerns!")

Oh scum-hunting is of utmost importance. Once again the manner in which you presented the case reads to me as an attempt to find a target you think can develop a viable wagon and then attack every little bit of their play.

But furthermore, how the fuck does our being accused of an "inconsistency" mean that we're not allowed to point out WORSE inconsistencies from Zdenek?

It doesn’t. Of course my view is that your inconsistencies are certainly indication of scum-mentality since I find them to be at least as strong as those you pointed out for Zdenek. Is it confirmation bias on my part? I’m willing to admit to the possibility. But that isn’t enough for me to back off what I perceive to be a good read on your slot.

Try reading it, then:

For someone high on the horse about not taking jabs and swipes at players you certainly didn’t miss your chance.

I’m interested in your quote, “a well-reasoned" case on Zdenek. You haven’t really said whether our case is good or bad at all.

I call it well-reasoned because it is very well structured and presented. Again I haven’t bothered to really dig into the case because I have a lot on my plate and I don’t see voting for Zdenek today over yourself or Feysal.

By the way, Magna, what is your read on Nexus? At the beginning of the day, he was one of your top four suspects, but you’ve spent comparatively little energy attacking him.

Well since he’s been absent via sickness he hasn’t added much to review until recently. He remains a second tier suspect based mostly on his end of Day play yesterday.

Oh, and also, WHY THE FUCK did you feel the need to post this:

Because I’d rather she actually scum-hunt as opposed to play the lulz gambit game. She’s not helping Town being all coy and mysterious, IMO.

@MoI (who earlier said Zdenek was far from a VI): do you agree with LMP’s assessment of Zdenek’s meta?

I partially disagree with LMP’s assessment. In Personal Agenda he weathered a strong storm of early accusations. In KGB Mafia (LMP’s game) he was mostly lynched because of a looming deadline and the fact that the scum team (myself included) had Vollkan as Town on our side. Quite easily things could have turned out differently and bvoigt lynched in his place Day 1.

[LimMePls]

This is so hilarious because THIS IS EXACTLY THE THINKING YOU ARE USING, not me. Your exact explanation for your thoughts on Zdenek were that he was "voting and nominating two of my town reads". Which means YOU THINK HE IS SCUM FOR DISAGREEING WITH YOU. To boot, you confess a town read of Benmage, despite the fact that Benmage was voting and nominating THE EXACT SAME AS ZDENEK. So you have a double standard. It's ok for Benmage to vote/nominate in a way you don't like, but not Zdenek.

I don't think he is scum for disagreeing with me. I think he is scum for voting town. There's a difference. Obviously, this game is based on opinion. So my townreads are not town to anyone else, necessarily. But scum is more likely to vote for town, and he's voting for town. You think I'm scum because I'm not voting for the person in this game you think is scummiEST. That's not a scumtell. If you want to call it a double standard, you can go right ahead. The fact of the matter is, it WOULD be scummy for either of them, but Benmage is already town. Zdenek is not already town, so he's scum.

No there isn't a difference, you are playing word games. He isn't "voting town" he's voting his scum reads. You say he is voting town BECAUSE OF YOUR TOWN READ. Therefore you are saying you are voting him because he disagrees with you.

QED.

[Locke Lamora]

Still don't like Setael's snipe at Nexus' posting habits, but that question to Feysal is right on the money. I was already pretty sold on Feysal-scum before that, but now I find it hard to see how those two statements could match up.

In other news, I can't decide whether DGB is scum or just playing badly. Perhaps that's the point.

[Raivann]

Why is Thor still not.voting?

Unvote. Vote: Feysal

because BL won't.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek has responded to every one of TS post saying that is has a negative effect or its just plain scummy. Zdenek been tunneling TS.

No I haven't.

Point 4: Your catch of Zdenek espousing the merits of discussing cow's post restriction and also attacking you for doing the same is a relevant point

Since this was the one point of TS argument that Kast agreed with, I'd like to point out the difference in my discussion of cow's post restriction and Twilight's. I talk about it for one sentence, whereas TS talks about it over several posts: ISO 10, 11, 12. At the moment I have to admit that it's not as bad as I thought, since it all took place on a single day when TS was active.

I would like to hear Feysal's answer to Setael in post 1470. It's pretty much an obvious contradiction concerning whatever he was planning to claim.

To address TS's 1472:

In other words...he asks Ghostlin why he agrees with every point of Magua’s in 926?

I left out a sentence.  Zdenek asks Ghostlin why he doesn’t “have a problem" with Magua‘s 926.  Aside from that question being pure fluff (Magua’s 926 wasn’t particularly noteworthy) and his singling out of Ghostlin rather WTF
...
He doesn’t exactly sheep Magua, but those opinions are fairly similar to those espoused in 926.  And then asks Ghostlin why he didn’t have a problem with that post.

Zdenek, explanation, please.

You didn't just leave out a sentence, you completely misinterpreted my post.

Why is my singling out of Ghostlin "rather WTF"? Had someone else at that point attacked me for using the interactions between players to try to determine their alignments, but not commented on Magua? For some reason Ghostlin ignored Magua's post, and I find this scummy because scum doesn't need to determine the alignments of players, and so they might not read everyone as carefully as they might read others. The fact that you are pressing this as a point against me is bizarre.

Regarding LL: I missed that quote of yours about him being a dog in his service. However, I believe that you still haven't answered my question:

what do you think are the chances that the mods would put a serial killer in the game and a lyncher who's goal is to lynch the SK?

Just one thing.  Zdenek, are you saying that when you saw Sotty’s post attacking MoI’s raise, you actually thought for yourself, “Gee, Sotty is making MoI look bad with soft attacks"?  That was your personal thought process?

I felt that Magna's and Benmage's cooperation could be very pro-town and I viewed that post as an attempt to to drive the two of them apart.

Okaaaaay...so, your stance on danakillsu is: he’s not scumhunting, but if the person he tunneled on day one (when he “wasn’t scumhunting") flips town, you can’t see how that would reflect negatively on dana? Have I got that straight?

I don't think that Dana being wrong about Mikujin would reflect particularly negatively on him. There were reasons to vote Mikujin and Dana wasn't the only vote on him that day.

I’ve never played with Zdenek before.  Do you have town and scum meta on him, for comparison’s sake?

My wiki is almost up to date. The only game that isn't on there is this one and some of the in progress games haven't been moved to completed.

For example, our first point is not just "inconsistency." It is that Zdenek is calling us scummy for holding an opinion on Locke that he, logically, must hold.

You have to completely misinterpret my posts for the premises of your argument to be correct.

TS, do you think that there is a town-reason to fake a post-restriction?

[Feysal]

Okay. I've decided to make one more attempt to defend myself, and then drop it. To this end, I will summarize the case against me and provide my responses to each point made against me.

Point One: Inside information

This is what LynchMePls began to push me for. He claims that in post #538 I gave Locke a town read based on his interactions with DGB and zoraster. This would imply that I was working on the assumption that there was a single scum team, which I contradicted in post #628 by saying I believed there were two. Finally, at the start of the second day, I concluded that one scum team was more likely in light of new information in post #1026. According to LynchMePls, I first slipped that I had inside information, then backtracked, and finally changed my mind again.

This is the point that I hate most of all. I simply never said what LynchMePls claims I did. My town read on Locke was not due to interactions with anyone, and therefore the supposed slip of inside information is not even incorrect, it is nonexistent. I've repeatedly tried to explain this to LynchMePls, last time in post #1346, but he has only screamed at me that I am lying or ignored me. Instead he has bullied and attacked other players for disbelieving him, like Bunnylover in post #1254 and danakillsu in post #1441.

Oddly enough, though he has ceased to respond to me, LynchMePls contradicted his own case while responding to Magua in post #1326. His second theory that I would know that there are two scum teams invalidates what he called an inside information slip in the first place. The one he screamed I was lying about. He is actually trying to claim that I must have been lying about something no matter how many scum teams there are, while ignoring the fact that many others shared my belief in one scum team when day two started. In his later posts, LynchMePls is usually not even accusing me of inside information any more, and he clearly should not, since he seems unsure exactly what inside information I would even have.

I declare that point one is pure fail, and based on nothing but LynchMePls sucking at reading comprehension.

Point Two: connections to diddin and Xtoxm

This point is mainly by Setael, and I concede it is the strongest part of the case on me. The point is that I called diddin scummy several times on day one, but I never voted or pushed him. This would supposedly be scum distancing. The only thing LynchMePls contributed to this point is the connection to Xtoxm. I mentioned him once in a positive connection, and this would supposedly be scum buddying each other.

My answer to why I did not vote or push diddin is that at first I did not want to place an uninformed vote while I was catching up, and when I had caught up I had found other suspects more deserving of my vote. For the same reason I did not ISO read diddin or try to make a case on him, he was simply a secondary suspect and I saw bigger fish to fry. LynchMePls of course does not accept this, when I confronted him with the fact that he was also voting Raivann when I was, he completely dodged it in his response post #1254. For the record, this is what he actually said when I was voting Raivann on day one:

Raivann is being criminally undervoted.

Clearly LynchMePls is being hypocritical when criticizing me for voting Raivann. The only difference to himself is that I had noticed diddin also and he had not.

As for Xtoxm, I am supposedly scummy for buddying another scum. Thus this point tries to claim that I am scummy for distancing diddin and buddying Xtoxm. This makes no sense, particularly not that I would buddy lurking scum with only one post.

For those of you who wonder why I mentioned Xtoxm at all, you have to see my post in context. The post in question was #325, written after reading pages 6-11. One major topic of discussion in those pages was what to do with the governor ability, and several suggestions were made for how to get rid of it. GreyICE was of course demanding it for himself, to never be used. Kast suggested arranging a draw for raise votes, so the ability would never be given to anyone. Benmage and MoI suggested wasting it on someone early. Then along comes Xtoxm with the most practical solution of them all, give it to the lynch of the day, who can't use it to save himself. I of course did not want to waste the ability (though had I known what Benmage would do with I may have thought otherwise), but Xtoxm still had the best solution for how to get rid of the power, if that was what the town wanted to do.

Note that there was more to this discussion than the posts I linked to, those were just the suggestions for what to do with the governor power. My mention of Xtoxm was intended as part of that discussion, and nothing else.

So much for point two. I say that Setael has made the best contributions to the case against me, and crediting the case as a whole to LynchMePls is doing her misjustice. That is also why I have gained a strong town read on her: scum would not demand credit for pushing a mislynch.

Point three: zoraster and Locke

This one was brought up by Locke. He wondered why I mentioned zoraster at all together with him in my post #538. My answer was that zoraster indeed had nothing to do with the point I was making, and that he had simply stuck in my mind with Locke.

I might as well explain that a bit further. That post was written after reading from page 14 to the end of the thread. Near the start of that page, zoraster called Locke "pretty scummy" and voted him. That caught my attention, and since I'd noticed no such thing, I wondered if I'd missed something. I began to pay closer attention to what Locke was saying, and discovered I liked his posts. Thus I gave him a town read. On the other hand, as I read the thread up to page 22, zoraster had a long series of posts devoid of scumhunting and pushing any of his suspects. Thus I gave him a scum read.

Simply put, what zoraster said about Locke caught my attention. This does not mean I'd have given them reads based on any interaction between them, Locke appeared townish to me independently of zoraster and zoraster appeared scummy independently of Locke. But they were still stuck in my mind together at the time I finished my read and wrote post #538 because of why I'd begun to pay them attention to begin with.

I don't think I can explain this any better. Onwards to the last point.

Point Four: Semantics

For this one credit (or blame) goes exclusively to MoI. According to his conclusion in post #1353 I was scummy for linguistic obfuscation. I asked him what the scum motivation would be for obscuring how many times I'd seen Zdenek's comment used, and in post #1407 he answered that because my stance was scummy and I was cherry picking events from prior games to support my stance.

Of course, MoI's logic is flawed. By the time he posted his conclusion, it had been established that I had only encountered Zdenek's comment once before, and thus from a sample size of one no cherry picking was possible. As for having a stance that he considered scummy, I was able to point to a past game where using Zdenek's comment contributed to a mislynch and the town loss, and the obvtown player the mislynched player had suspected was in fact scum. I am not obligated to discard my own experience in favor of MoI's. And after a little digging, I found a quote from myself from that game, where I disagreed with that tell the first time I saw it:

Add on 'Does his damnest to undermine the credibility of anyone who isn't mod-confirmed Town' to the list of reasons why Nathanael is probably Scum.

This was in response to Nathanael talking about The Fonz, and how he did not like him being made untouchable. It was a valid concern, we should not forget that clever scum can sometimes masquerade as obvtown. That said, I do trust The Fonz. Unlike Primate who I believed town because everyone else did, I am sure that my read on The Fonz is my own.

I was town in this game. My opinion of this tell being poor has only been strengthened after seeing how it contributed to a mislynch and the town loss.

I consider point four disproven in its entirety.

There, all done. I think I covered all the concerns people have raised against me. If I missed something, do point it out.

Because I realized that trying to convince YOU that you are scum is POINTLESS. I have not dropped the case, I'm simply taking my case to people who can actually be persuaded.

I could not disagree more with this. By refusing to acknowledge me you are denying me the chance to defend myself, and you are avoiding having to answer for your flawed arguments. You are hiding behind an excuse, and if you had not confessed to killing Chesskid, I would call you scum for it.

By itself is it strong evidence of Feysal-scum? No, not really. But when added with the very strong scummy interactions with diddin, it makes it fairly strong circumstantial evidence that Feysal is connected with the Starks. Add on top the D1 suggestion that there was only 1 scum team, that he then back tracked under pressure, but then re-asserted when D2 started, and the whole thing stinks.

I love how you admit that the evidence is circumstantial. Answer then, if you can, how does one avoid being scummy then if anyone you mention in your posts can flip scum and damn you by association? If merely mentioning a scum player regardless of context is a scumtell, it sounds like the only safe way to play mafia is to never talk about anyone at all. You are making yourself ridiculous.

Hold on. This is not what I expected at all. You soft claimed a PR, which is why I originally moved my vote. Once I became more sure you're scum, I expected a big fancy fake PR claim from you. If your claim won't help you like you say, then why did you say this:

You expected correctly. I do in fact have a minor power role. I also know it is exactly the sort of claim that scum would make under pressure, so it is unlikely to help me, but sharing what I've done with it is still better than being killed during the night. The worst part though is my name. I've heard two players claim that there is no way my character would be town aligned, and that is why I fear my claim will result in my quicklynch. But I can't help that, my role is what it is.

Time to claim, while there is still time for discussion before the deadline.

I am Petyr Baelish aka Littlefinger, voyeur, Lannister aligned.

My one and so far only target has been Kast. He was not visited by anyone else last night.

[Locke Lamora]

Does your role PM say both names? What's your flavour for voyeur?

[Shadow1psc]

No flavor paraphrase either? If you're gonna claim you might as well claim right...

[Nexus]

I thought Littlefinger was a dirty traitor?

[Locke Lamora]

Hey Shadow, have you thought about not being 'intimidated' and doing some scumhunting?

[Shadow1psc]

I thought Littlefinger was a dirty traitor?

Meta on that, with this being SoS is slightly dangerous. His intent was not revealed until late in the book.

[Shadow1psc]

Hey Shadow, have you thought about not being 'intimidated' and doing some scumhunting?

I've thought about it. Been reading. It's a lot of huge giant walls of text from people, which makes me think there is a lot of town fighting with town while scum lie low (yes I realize I'm guilty of 'lying low'). Perfect example is Thor escaping into obscurity, then only coming back with the occasional 'wah, still catching up... almost caught up... almost caught up...' (etc).

[Nexus]

During ASOS, Littlefinger a) travels to the Eyrie to woo Lysa, b) Buys Sansa, c) admits to being a part of Joff's death and d) kills Lysa.

So yes. He is a dirty traitor. Obviously, I don't know how much flavour reflects reality.

[Raivann]

Wouldn't benmage have been the obv. player to watch last night?

[Feysal]

Does your role PM say both names? What's your flavour for voyeur?

Role flavor coming right up (paraphrased of course).

You are Petyr Baelish, aka Littlefinger, Lannister aligned. You are a mystery, a man who lives for schemes and intrigue, at times apparently for their own sake. For the time being you are pleased to support the Lannisters in fighting their foes, which is good news indeed for House Lannister.

You are a voyeur. Every night you may send me the name of another player and if your action succeeds, I will inform you if that player was targeted that night, though not by who.

I thought Littlefinger was a dirty traitor?

...which is exactly why I said my role claim would be quicklynch material.

[Setael]

So... why did you say you would be unhappy if you were killed without a chance to claim if you a) thought your claim would seem scummy and not in any way help prevent your lynch and b) you had no useful info that needed shared?