Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

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Vote:tclawren

Avoiding rvs is complete lack of progress, and so...

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1. A vaguely relavent question. Mountain GMT - 7
2. Metagaming is at BEST as illogical as RVS, if not a LOT less so.
3. Irrelavent. Everyone is going to say "Town" to keep suspicion off of themselves. In keeping with this, I shall say Mafia.
4. How often are you likely to post?
5. I disagree with the concept of anybody 'leading' the town, since that's kind of a scum-tell.

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Yes. That is also an adequate description of RVS.

3 is, simply put, a GREAT excuse for Wine in Front of Me, and not REALLY able to be anything but muddying the waters.

I forgot to answer 4. I'll post fairly often. I'm on pretty well every day for at least 4 or 5 hours sitting here and hitting f5, heh.

I didn't say following was a scum-tell, but leading the town certainly is. Making a case =/= leading.

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I have played in two games on this site. In one of them, mafia was caught first day thanks to RV reactions. Also, the arguments and discussions of RV don't ONLY apply day 1. Who dies on night 1 can also be used to build a case.


And no, making a case isn't leading. Although, to be honest, you've taken on the role of 'leading the town' and are also asking some seriously leading questions at this point, MOST of which accomplish NOTHING. So far, we've learned very little, since any answer given can be taken either way. And, WIFOM arguments put me ill at ease.

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As for WIFOM, I think it's severely over and misused. <---- Explain this more please.

And yes, they do harm us. Questions that muddy the water, and can be used as either proof positive or negative waste time, and can easily be used to form cases either way.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=16073 Scum dead D1

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Honestly, I ALWAYS consider refusing to RVS to be at least a little scummy. Not enough to suspect someone on it's own, but still a point to look back at in the future.

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I should say, refusing to partake of rvs is a little scummy because it prevents us from getting a read on that person. "I refuse to partake of RVS" is a nice way of saying "lurking time!"

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Surpise_Carcinogen: And yes, they do harm us. Questions that muddy the water, and can be used as either proof positive or negative waste time, and can easily be used to form cases either way.

If you don't think they're relevant wouldn't you just ignore them if someone were to bring them up for a case, infact wouldn't they allow misleading information for someone to attempt to abuse thus allowing you to find a scum-tell on someone that does so?

Following this...

Vote:Regfan

You're insisting that your questions(like the metagaming probe, the query about whether you like to lead or follow or whether you like to be mafia and scum) are actually useful. They aren't. They serve no purpose but to waste time, and can't really serve a future purpose except to obsfucate the situation. Forcing the idea that it's actually helping doesn't really give me good feelings, and leading the town under the guise of a questionaire adds to enough that I'm willing to put a vote behind it.


@Vollkan: In order

1: I suppose I can understand the idea of someone being against RV for the sake of finding it pointless, but at the same time, refusing to partake still leaves us out an early read of that player.

2: Refusing to RVS is a span of time a person is lurking. Lurking a LOT is a scum-tell, or at least anti-town. We can't ignore a gap in playtime for a reason like 'I don't find it productive'. Lurking is still lurking at that stage.

3: I agree. I misspoke. Anti-town is a much more reasonable way of putting it as opposed to scum-tell.

In closing, non-rvsers aren't scummy. They ARE anti-town, though.


mafia edit @Subgenious: I'm more inclined to find a person doing little or nothing during D1 to be Lurking. Which is, depending on your personal method of gaguing, either a scum-tell or anti-town. I'm inclined to consider lurking for all or most of D1 to be a scum-tell. But the day is still young.



In other news, out of curiosity, if I were to cop to being a Town Miller, what would general reaction be?

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Once again,
1. Then that person and myself will disagree. See pt.3
2. I mean that you need to look at refusing to RV as a section of time a person was refusing to play. For example: You are not RVing, but you're still investigating. IE: not lurking. The first guy who said he wasn't going to RV hasn't said anything else since, but it's still early. If he continues to say nothing for a few more days, it becomes lurking.
3. Under the misconception that it was a universally accepted fact that RVS is beneficial to town, I made the decision that refusing to do so is a scum-tell. Your argument has swayed my understanding. I consider refusing to do it to be anti-town, as it is still my opinion that you can get good information from RV(see pt.1), as it has been my experience that SOMETHING good comes of RVS. It is a slightly moot point at this stage though, as I think we've skipped entirely through RVS phase.


And, I'd like to point out that I've always gotten different reactions when I've asked that question. This is one of the more interesting ones. I'm not going to claim miller. If I WERE a miller, I would have done so with my first post. I'm more curious as to how people would react. And, by the by, "you'll find out my reaction" is a reaction. The purpose of the hypothetical question is to gain information, and at worst it allows you to probe out some idea of a person's play-style.

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Forgot to add this to the end of my last post: Hypothetical question rescinded, since I already got two answers, and anything else is going to be null for information

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I was hoping to gain information. At this stage of the game, I can't honestly have any goal more specific then "Figure out who is scum." And I've gotten any number of reactions, ranging from a breakdown of possible realities(I am mason, I'm town lieing about mason, I'm scum lying about mason) and why nobodies reaction really matters in that case, to being ignored. And while I'm not yet very sure about a regfan lynch, I think some pressure should be put in his direction. What he's doing is something that I would call bad-play, and I'm interested to try and get information from him to find out if he's scum or not.

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I fail to see how your miller question is any more useful than regfan's list. What have you concluded the two responses you received?

I've concluded that two players have a playstyle more cautious then most I've played with in my one other game on mafiascum, and in my experiences playing on other forums.

Reverse the question: What can we learn from Regfan's questions? Some are practical. What timezone do you live in? That's a reasonable and relavent question, but has very, very little application for scumhunting. Do you like being scum, or town? Irrelavent BECAUSE it cannot be applied in any way towards case-building. His metagaming question is dubious at best. Metagaming can tell you, potentially, if someone is playing differently then usual, but it's always going to be debatable evidence. My experience has been that cases using metagaming as any sort of major component will meander around for a little bit, while RARELY actually going far enough to lynch, and even MORE rarely, actually catching scum. I'm willing to reevaluate my experience if given a few cases where metagaming was used successfully, since I haven't done much reading, and I'm used to a very different playstyle then MS.net uses, but the idea that "he's playing a different kind of game then he did when he was town, and this is suspicious" is weird to me.

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Woops, accidentally hit submit. continuing.

I also notice that his own answers are slightly suspect, since he has an "I'm so town, lookit me scumhunt", and this has rarely boded particularly good. It screams of either 'newbie town' or 'nervous scum' though given how he feels about rvs he must be at least a little bit experienced.
How often do you post is, again, slightly relavent, while also giving plenty of an out for lurkers. If regfan is scum, his buddies now have an easy way to point and go "I'm not lurking, see, I said I'd only be posting X amount." and beside that, it once again is not going to give out any information that is in any way usable. And the 'leader/follower' question is silly. Town shouldn't 'follow' anything but evidence, and as such the closest thing to a 'leader' is going to be someone who lays out a good, coherent and worthwhile case. The results of this question are, once again, non-condusive to scum-hunting.


And no, regfan, I'm not voting with you because I disagree with the method you're using. I'm doing it because you've yet to explain to me what your questions mean. I notice that, in spite of ME asking several times, all you've done is defend the CONCEPT of what you're doing. RQS can be incredibly useful, and I've seen it succeed in the past. But, the questions THEMSELVES needed to have a purpose, and you've as of yet to tell me how you intend to use ANY of the answers in a town-productive way. And no, I can't really show you a game where RVS has, provably and immediately, led to a scum-lynch. I can show you plenty of games, though, where RVS has been used on D2 or D3(or, scum doing stupid things under the GUISE of RVS early game, which can't be done if there is no rvs) to conclude or finish proving a case. On the other hand, your statement has gone from "RVS is generally unproductive" to "RVS HAS NEVER EVER WORKED EVER!" Also, the rvs debate is slightly moot at this point as I've explained my reasoning. Refusing to partake and then doing nothing at all = antitown. Refusing to partake and doing something else(ie rqs) = productive. Asking questions that are at best irrelavent and at worst WIFOM/leading, and then refusing to offer up any reasoning behind how you intend to use the questions = antitown at best.

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So, your questions don't help then. The 1st one I've already admitted is slightly useful. The rest cannot conceivably be used in a case. Scum and town can BOTH be flaky or confident. And just because someone used those methods(Tunnel, Lurk, OMGUS, AtE) doesn't mean they're going to again. And, it doesn't mean that if they do or don't, they're the same alignment as they were last time. And your explanation for a slow reply to the 'why' of your questions, combined with the fact that you intend me to believe that those questions are useful are starting to skew my hand down the slider past 'anti-town'

and, c) So, in two years of playing you're not used to open, unknown setup? I've honestly in a little better then half a year of playing, never have played a 'known setup' game, with the exception of the really gimmiky ones(Choose Your Own Role Mafia for example).

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Again, never have I said any of the points would be used in a case, just to help me gather a feel of the players and to attain some basic gut reads. The idea of 'Just because seomeone used those methods doesn't mean they will do it again' really shows how little attention you paid to my posts because I explicitly said that although it doesn't mean they're going to play that way this game it gives us some basis to work from. Again, what's the point of asking questions for reactions if you're going to explain what reactions you're looking for? In regards to C, this is my second open setup, I normally stick to closed setups.

So lets just get this right:

- I dislike RVS, you say refraining from using RVS is a scumtell.
- I bring up questions, you attempt to discredit the questions before an explanation was given towards them and before they had a chance to work at all, you state those questions are a scumtell.
- Someone points out that disliking and refraining from using the RVS is a null-tell, you instantly turn the previous scum-tell on me towards 'anti-town' behavior even though you understand the RVS vs RQS debate.
- I explain the reasoning behind the questions, you state that you don't think Meta-exists or is relevant thus the questions are still a scum-tell

Have I got that right? Because from what I'm reading you're attempting to change your reasoning behind the vote whenever it suits it,

you seem to have your tunnel goggles on.

The bolded statement got my attention. Looking back at my OWN plays, I am inclined to agree.

unvote

. Watching the progression of my own arguments, I have been being terrible, for reasons that you guys have been swift to point out. I am, for the moment, satisfied with the answers given by Regfan. If he had any other questions I failed to answer though, point them out. I might have missed them scanning through the flurry of events that occured while I was away. I didn't think we'd hit page 4 so fast in a 3 week long game. I'm kinda used to D1 being over by page 6 or 7(D1 usually being 72 or 96 hours long at most) so I'm still getting used to the pacing here at MS.net


My eyes are now on the two most recent votes on me. People who voted for me first, I accept your reasoning, so understand that my dislike of Bgg and Yura's votes is not by any means OMGUS. I was tunneling, as stated earlier, and am going to let me eyes wander a little more, and stop focusing so much on Regfan. As for why Bgg and Yura or my new persons of interest is because bgg decided I hadn't posted "in the longest time" when at the time of bgg's post(4:50 pm server time) since 8:30 am. A whole 8 hours and 20 minutes. Why, that's almost as long as a SHIFT AT A FULL TIME JOB(Plus or minus commute). And Yura is on the block for so suddenly and rediculously bandwagoning. And thusly,

vote:Yura-chi

. Bgg is promising more logical reasons, and I'll decide if I think he's scum-hunting or not when the time comes. Yura, though, has nothing more then "Oh, yeah, he has been quiet...*L-3*". A frightening sort of bandwagoning, and enough to get my vote on D1

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Sorry, I totally lied. There's no understanding Magnetic's vote. Except that it was kinda funny. So in that, I suppose I still understand it.

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Ugh. Keep submitting half-thoughts. I still understand Vollkan's vote of myself, anyway.

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Because I said that I understood the vote for the two people who voted me before you and bgg did. Then I read back and remembered that Magnetic's vote was what I understand to be a joke-rvs vote, based on the discussion of rvs votes at the time, and that his vote DIDN'T actually make sense to me, outside of it being funny.

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He's been 'not posting' for about 9 or 10 hours. That's not exactly a drought. It's not suspicious to go less then 12 hours without posting. Otherwise, I have a list of about 6 or 7 people who are also suspicious. I mean, for example, that yura-chi guy went, like, 13 or 14 hours before making his first post!

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i think yura-chi is trolling this game tbh. however, notice what i have bolded in sc's last post:

He's been 'not posting' for about 9 or 10 hours. That's not exactly a drought. It's not suspicious to go less then 12 hours without posting. Otherwise, I have a list of about 6 or 7 people who are also suspicious. I mean, for example,

that yura-chi guy

went, like, 13 or 14 hours before making his first post!

this seems a bit like he may be distancing himself from the guy who just happened to share the same qt as him. i dont see why he couldnt just say 'yura-chi'.

Actually, I was speaking directly to Yura, and not trying to distance myself. I was attempting to point out that he's a hypocrit.

On the matter of the incredibly stupid claim by Magnetic...wow...Well, it's obviously good policy to LAL, but at the same time, I wouldn't mind seeing Yura go as well. It's a fairly certain matter that both are acting against the town's interests in all cases, thus far at least. The difference is, I think the odds are pretty good that Magnetic is trolling, but I'm more inclined to think that Yura is actually newbie scum acting up. I'd rather kill scum then town, even if it's bastard town.

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Properly, I think it MORE LIKELY that Magnetic is trolling then for it to be Yura.

Also, could I get a

votecount

please

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I'm not saying leave him alive, I was considering the idea of leaving him alive till D2, and see where things go from there. On the other hand, considering things more carefully, he is either a) scum, or b) trolling. The purpose to leave him alive was the possibility of night-actions clearing or condemning him. But even if we prove with 100% certainly he's town, he's still not good to keep around. Yura on the other hand, there is the slim possibility is actually just really, really bad town. I don't consider it a very GOOD possibility, but I'm not eliminating it. Yura is being useless. Magnetic is being worse and actually holding the town back a little. So I'm going to

unvote

and say I'm okay voting Magnetic. I'm going to try and do my personal best to drag D1 out as long as possible, so I'm not actually GOING to vote for him, because I don't want ANYBODY L-2 right now.

I propose we follow Magnetic's advice. I don't think we can really build a better case against him then we already have. What ELSE do we know, aside from that Magnetic has been extraordinariliy detrimental towards town?

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I am major suspicious of Bgg, to be honest. On the one hand, he has a very good point about prolonging the day, though he's not the first to make it.

On the other hand, he made a very poor attempt at bandwagoning, now that I'm confident that's what it was. He promised more logical reasons soon, and so I reserved specific judgement on his vote until he did. Now that he didn't, I think it pretty clearly was an attempt at a wagon. His defense of Bgg is also suspect, though mostly because I've never actually heard of 'strong doctor'(I have heard of, and seen, the use of the 'weak' prefix before, which I've seen on cops as well as doctors to mean that if they try and target scum, they die.) It's possible I misunderstand, and when Bgg said "strong doctor" and just mean "normal doc", but even in that case, there's no benefit to a doctor fake-claiming a role identical to his own, but slightly worse.

And, Max, the reason we want to stretch the day as long as possible is because on N1, a townie will almost certainly die. We need to learn as much information as we possibly can today, related to things ASIDE from Magnetic. For the moment, Magnetic, Yura, and Bgg are on my list, in that order. Maxous's misunderstanding that "The only rason to extend the day would be for the possibility of the town changing their minds" seems kind of off, but I think it's just someone not quite understanding, and not something much less innocent.


mafia edit: Regfan, a couple quick questions about your points:
The more interactions we have, the more we can learn from whoever the mafia select as their NK, so I disagree that this is a disadvantage.
[quote="Regfan]The possibilty that Magnetic and other players interactions with Magnetic will give us a better clue of their allignment, however people will just yell WIFOM whenever any of this is brought up.[/quote]
I don't understand this at all. Clarify how you figure that people will call WIFOM, apparently in your opinion regardless of what manner of information comes up?

And honestly, I don't think we should find a new lynch target. Not for today, anyway. I think we can spend a few more days on D1 to figure out who our D2 lynch should be, and then reevaluate on the other side of the first NK to see if our information lines up, but at the same time, I cannot see fit to bring both Magnetic, and Yura along with us. I'm honestly fine with either being the eventual D1 lynch.

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Quick reply while at work:
1) Bgg, when asked "why don't you change your vote" "I wont change my vote" isn't a real answer
and
2) a 'mafia edit' is when you are about to post, and then hit preview and see stuff has been said since the last time you posted, so you show that you are adding based on new stuff since you started typing a thought. When I'm at home I'll hunt down the wiki page on it.

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I'm a little confused by whether Bgg is scum, or just an idiot. I'm inclined to call scum, just because I've seen him play smarter then this before. Then again, I hesitate to use meta at all, even if it is just to establish competence.

@Truant: It's actually more of the incompetent scum thing. "I'm not doing anything" is more the sort of thing that would be blurted out by someone who is, in fact, doing something, but they're just bad at HIDING that they're doing something.

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We are clearly not going anywhere more then we already have until we deal with one very important problem...

the lynch is in no way

decided

for today.

Wrong again, bgg

vote:Magnetic

Either he is scum, or he is a troll. If troll, his answers wont matter, cause he's going to bs us. If scum, his answers are either going to make us think he's scum more, which doesn't matter, or less, which would be a problem, and so are at BEST non-productive. And, we're clearly not making any progress on leads outside of lynching Magnetic. So, let's remove the distraction, and hopefully N2 will give us some info, and on D2 we can get to some serious scum-hunting

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Yep. Just waiting for the Storyteller to give us a card-flip

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I seriously hope for a cardflip before I have to sleep...

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I like truant's reasoning, especially as the possibility of dropping the SK would bring us back to only one town death a night. I already am suspicious enough of yura to have had my vote on her for a while D1, and the 'sk' read makes the 'threat' statement make even more sense then it did before.

vote:Yura

@Subgenious: I disagree with your thoughts on Bgg. The probable explanation is that Bgg was trying to justify completely irrational actions on the part of someone who was later banned for trolling, and stretched a little bit into the realm of the improbable.

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It probably does what the wiki said it did, but at this point, it's entirely possible, given that we have two sources of murder, apparently, that it might be what he said it did. It's really tough to say though, since he was, in fact, a troll, and he could just as easily have been fucking with us.

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...Yura, did you just decide someone was scum for siding with you? I'm becoming more confident in my Yura vote, but I'm concerned as well for the lack of substantial content from CKD. Admittedly our D1 was rather short, but even so almost everyone else made some sort of real attempt at scumhunt.

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No, I don't. Given the way the magnetic situation turned out, as well as some re-reading of ISOs, I don't think you're suspicious enough to warrant a vote.

The only thing that still puts me ill at ease is that you voted for lurking after 8 and a half hours of no posting. I still would like justification for this.

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I'm more suspicious because of his justification(or what I understood of the post, anyway) for his vote. He voted for CKD because CKD defended him. It's like the craziest, weirdest version of 'OMGUS' that I've ever heard. Looking at an ISO of Yura, I can't honestly say ANY of her posts do any better then null, and many are worse.

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my two cents: stabs are sk (always?) , im surprised tclawren didnt hammer , and

i find surprise disturbing

and subgenius pro town.

firstly, subgenius'es opinion on bgg, i find it to be correct.

then, about surprise, he was the one to hammer, and then the next day immedtaily votes for the next best suspect- yuri,. to me scums do this so people forget what happened the previous days/

vote surprise

So...your reasoning breaks down into "Hammering magnetic was scummy" and "Immediately chasing the best lead is scummy." Forgetting that I didn't nearly make the first vote of D2, I'm still confident in Yura as scum, and wanted to make sure she knew. I don't think by any means we should lynch her right away, as a short D1 was bad enough, thanks to the 'banned loser' as the vote-counts say. I also would very much like for you to explain the bolded statement a little more, since it's a vague way of saying absolutely nothing without evidence to back it up.

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Side note, everybody look at Andrew's ISO. Five posts, 2 votes, no substance(I'm tempted to say 4 posts, since one is just him accusing yura of being a man). And aside from that, I dislike his refusal to read 'walls' since it pretty well excludes him from any real argument or well-made case, since they are all going to pretty well come in wall form. There is simply too little to go on for me to have an idea if he's scum yet or not, but what there is definitely points to anti-town behavior, at best, and scum at worst.

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A quick review of ISOs puts lowest post count at Andrew, CKD, and Yura, in that order, and lack of content is about the same(Yura and CKD are pretty close together though)

This isn't to say that lurking or useless posting is a HUGE draw to attention at this point, but I'd like these people to at least start justifying themselves, if only to force them to post and give us something to get a read with.

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I'm thinking the same, Max. I've seen 'shot' represent Mafia, and Vig, and I've seen 'stab' represent SK and Mafia. I've never seen someone use two different terms for two different mafia-groups though, so I'm leaning away from that idea. Andrew, a proper response to the simple stupidity of your post is incoming.

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@surprise, im saying that you are attacking the most' suspicious' person- yura, in order to deflect attention.
then you draw attention to my 5 lowly posts, which again- deflecting attention. maybe you would deem to look at my other games and see how many posts i have in them.
my vote is justified

Two major things. First, you consider it suspect to go after the most suspicious person. This is, as far as I can tell, completely stupid. Other people, feel free to correct me, but generally if someone is the most suspicious...you vote for them. Read my prior reply to you, where I mention not wanting her dead yet, but she's still suspect number 1, and thus, still my favorite for a lynch.

As for deflecting...you realize you just said "Hey, you're using the fact that I didn't post much in an attempt to deflect your own suspicious nature", and that is, itself, a complete deflection. Answer to your tiny and useless post-count, hell, answer ANY question posed to you with a real answer, and maybe you can start deciding what a deflection is and isn't. Until then, yes, I think I was justified in hammering Magnetic. Letting a cheater and a troll wander around would have only hurt us D1. Yes, I want to see Yura hang, eventually, for the moment. No, it is not reasonable to consider me voting Yura a deflection to distract people from my hammer.

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Why do you consider Vig so unlikely? I consider it the MOST likely of scenarios, to be honest. 2/2/9 is no good, as it once again allows one mafia group to die off first night(D1 lynch, other mafia N1 kill).
But, if there is an SK, and it WAS Yura, things would make a lot more sense. With the lense of there possibly being an SK, things like the 'threat' comment, and Yura's general ambivalence towards being consdiered scum could also be newb-sk cockiness.

That said, I think the options, in order of likely hood are: vig, sk, and 2 mafia, with the last extra unlikely. 2/2/9 isn't a good set up, and 3/3/7 is also no good, as it might leave town extinct too early in the game.


also, @andrew: You are completely misusing 'strawmanning', for one. I'm not deflecting anything at all. I hammered magnetic. It was a good call. What am I deflecting? You, on the other hand, are trying your damndest to make a completely stupid accusation stick, and with ever-thinning logical fallacies. What about me is a 'suspicious nature'(This also means something different then you meant, but I understand what you mean at least), and what questions would you like answered, if you figure I'm avoiding something.

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Well, what would you like me to refer to about day 1? It was dominated by someone whose sole purpose was to mislead and confuse us. If there's something from D1 you'd like me to answer for, go ahead and ask. But so far, you're not making a solid accusation, just "Ignoring day1, this is scummy", not "You did this this and this on D1, this is scummy". one of those two statements is scumhunting. one is a crappy attempt at a pointless case. You be the judge.

tl;dr if you think I'm ignoring something, tell me what it is.

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I have my own reasons to disbelieve the random babling of magnetic.

And Vollkan, I started off agreeing with you(A longer day really wouldn't have helped. We were going to just keep ending up being baited or confused by magnetic, and not really said anything of import) But you are contradicting yourself now. After all, if scum would have had information(they wouldn't have) wouldn't we? There's no solid reason for having ended the day that early except for impatience, but there was no reason to extend it either. We weren't gaining anything either way, except waiting three weeks for what would undoubtedly have been pointless nonsense

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Bgg didn't write that last bit, I did. And I think we may actually be agreeing right now. It is, at least, my position, that the gains and risks were equally small and unlikely, and so extending the day or not extending it were merely a matter of patience and impatience.

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I can neither confirm nor deny my identity at this stage. I just have seen far more small games like this have vig then I have seen them have SK, and even FEWER have a second mafia group. And, at this point, we can only work statistics. There is no chance of actually KNOWING anything, yet.

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Vollkan. Take a step back, for your own sake. I had to back in D1 when I was tunneling on Reg without realizing it. You can't take apart everything a person says without eventually coming up with whatever it was you wanted to find anyway

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I can't honestly defend his question. It was awful. I also don't have any basis for thinking your tunneling aside from the fact that you've taken apart/quoted every single post he has made since. I just don't see Bgg as being scummy.

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Yes. I did state his question is indefensible. And while yes, he is acting scummy, I definitely think he is town.

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2. The reason I am not naming said individuals, is because I wasn't saying "I suspect these people, the people who did this.", I was saying "Doing this is a scummy thing to do". Does that make sense to you?

I think you'd better narrow this down, seeing as you've implicated 70 percent of the town.

To be fair, statistically he has also identified at least two scum in the pile.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

True, but as stated, I consider there to be a very slim chance that this is true. Present, but slim.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

But, since that conversation has slowed down, a different direction is needed. As CKD has yet to reply, and I think I've made my case against Yura pretty clear, I'm tempted to look back to andrew and his stretching for a lynch, but am otherwise going to need to do a re-read to see what I might have missed.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Agreed. As the hammer-drop, you are preaching to the choir. The trouble is, the statement that prolonging the day might have been helpful is just as valid as the statement that it would have been harmful. It`s not a productive conversation.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

He hasn't actually done anything pro town, so much as he has played almost exactly the way I used to when I was first starting to play mafia, false scum-tells and all, I haven't seen anything majorly wrong come from him, just a lot of small things, so I am disinclined to comdemn him just yet. I think he, at worst, reads null to me, but I am more inclined to read 'misguided town' in his actions. Things like 'are you vig' aren't something even the worst of scum would outright ask, after all.

As to the second point, what conclusions do you draw from him changing his mind?

Also, seriously people, I can go and take a look at the list of people who had voted for Magnetic when he was lynched. Why are you so hard-on to see Bgg specifically mention each one of them?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

If you had to pick out one or two who would you pick?

At this point, I would say Truant and yura-chi.

Depending on bgg1996's flip

, S_C.

I've been trying to figure out why this statement bothered me. It's the bit I bolded. I dislike the fact that you're talking with a specific confidence that he IS going to flip shortly.

That aside, I've made the only case in Bggs defence that I think there is. I don't find him scummy because I have seen less-then-adept town including myself play exactly this way, but I haven't seen scum behave quite so textbook scummy. It's much, much more likely in my mind that's he's just a townie who made a mistake and can't do anything to remedy it without looking worse. "Woops, made a mistake, sorry" at this point would look just as bad against him as anything else.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

A quick look over things and Yura's current post continues a rather disturbing trend of contributing nothing, and riding nearly every single bandwagon, or potential bandwagon so far this game. She has rarely missed even one. This is terrible practice, and not at all in the town's favor, possibly bordering on a definitive scumtell. The constant wagoning would combine with the lack of original evidence to keep Yura in my top spot in spite of andrew climbing quickly closer.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

I just reread Andrew(doesn't take long) and I am seriously worried about him. I'm getting close to considering a policy vote just for his excessive lurking if Yura didn't seem more directly detrimental to town. Notice that he's entirely dropped off the face of the world after I more directly confront him about his skimpy premise. It's only been almost a full day, but his posting history makes it doubtful he'll say anything. He posted 3 times in D1, and only 5 after, in a game that has been running for 7 days total.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Most of them. I wish I still had my first game of mafia handy. Admittedly it was a first, and I know this isn't Bgg's first, but I got myself speed-lynched day 3 as a townie behaving the exact same way he is now. I simply don't see a mafia making this MANY mistakes, I should say. Slip once or twice, yeah, but even under pressure I consider it more likely a desperate townie fumbling for survival then I do a scum fumbling for his disguise.

And, before you guys go pinning us together, remember that if we all just agreed on one person who defended themselves alone, cases would be pretty shitty 90% of the time. I mean, in this case yes, I specifically believe Bgg to be scum, but there are times when a player will disagree just to play Black Hat.

I think Bgg was uncertain of Magnetic, since his plays were so completely off the wall. I honestly didn't know if he was scum or town when I hammered, but I did know that he'd do us an enormous amount of harm to keep him around, even as a townie.

As for CKD and Regfan, I can't say much of CKD. He gave himself a 59% chance(his own words) that Pappums was scum(wrong 0-1). His stupid BS about pressure is tough to read, but I'm inclined to just think it's childishness. He also hasn't been posting much, though his posts have a tiny bit more content then other people's. Both of them seemed to still think that Magnetic was on the level, but confused/stupid, or at least still credible ENOUGH to have reasoning. I doubt BOTH of them were, though. I'm more inclined to find CKD scummy, of the two, though I wouldn't toss out the idea of a team between them.


mafia edit: At least we can agree on something, Sub. And you can keep your vote on Bgg. Your case is a solid one, and the only thing I have to argue it is meta(which is thin at best) but it's what's staying my hand. I've seen town act the way he is, but not scum. I'm also curious as to which comment made Max rethink, but only curious. I don't really think the information is that important.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Oh hey, really? Calling me out on hammering Magnetic? You are getting worse and worse by the second, Andrew. And, apparently, it's a scumtell to START THE DAY WITH A LEAD. This is utter horseshit, of course. And I'm not attempting to discredit your case. You don't have a case. I'm attempting to prove you're scum. If you DID have a case, I'd probably attempt to disprove it, not discredit it.

Posting little because you can't, or because you're trying to keep out of people's sight? Because

I

couldn't post often, I'd make DAMN sure there was some sort of meaningful content in my posts. Bgg is very right. You need to start giving opinions on more then one or two things of your choice, that suit you personally.

((Also, notice that he's not on much, but appears the moment I mention his lack of posting ))

You have yet to point out what I'm dodging. Unless you mean me hunting Yura is dodging. If that's it then I'm changing my vote right now. Hell, either way I'm happy with the idea of a Yura-Andrew team.


mafia edit:

on which particular things

Try...absolutely everything that has gone on this game so far that you've ignored. From the RQS thing early on that you haven't said a thing about, on to the magnetic thing which you almost entirely ignored, or maybe any of the debates so far that you've said nothing about. Your 'case' against me is the most content we've gotten from you all game, and I'll be damned if it's of any quality at all.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Hmm, fair enough. I didn't really think it needed adressing, since I had given my justification afterwards, but if it helps: What is everybodies opinion on the D1 lynch?

On the flip side, what is everyone's opinion on Andrew's tunnel visioning and lack of content? Just so nobody call call 'omgus' on me later, I'd like to know a broader group of opinions.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

That logic is almost reasonable. Lynching town is never a good idea on the principle that they aren't going to contribute much even if they are town. On the other hand, his refusal to point out his opinions can be a good indication that he ISN'T town.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Alright, that's it

unvote. Vote: Andrew94

I gave you a good, long list of things you could give some opinion or another about, and then you come in here and strawman(correct usage. Answer a different, but superficially similar question to the one asked) your way into self-righteousness. And I always keep an eye on lurkers, they just happen to get my attention when they start flimsy, pointless cases, against me or not. And you haven't SAID you refuse to post your opinions. You just HAVE failed to post your opinions.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Alright, since you are stupid on TOP of being scum...

mafia edit:

on which particular things

Try...absolutely everything that has gone on this game so far that you've ignored. From the RQS thing early on that you haven't said a thing about, on to the magnetic thing which you almost entirely ignored, or maybe any of the debates so far that you've said nothing about. Your 'case' against me is the most content we've gotten from you all game, and I'll be damned if it's of any quality at all.

Here. Right here. I gave you a list of possible things you might have had opinions about, but which you said nothing to. You have done nothing but occasionally take a pot shot at me. Even with Bgg coming under heavy fire, you have been suspiciously quiet. You could give us on opinion on that, for example! What do you think about Bgg's various accusations? What do you think about CKD's lurking, or Regfan being all shepherd-ie. SAY SOMETHING THAT MATTERS.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Also, if I understand DIAF right, I'm going to add "needlessly agressive towards his accusors" to the list.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

So...with bgg saying things like "everybody who lynched magnetic is suspicious" and other such things, the ONLY thing you have an opinion about is the fact that he's opportunistic for looking in your direction? Plus, I give you a frigging LIST of things, and you grab the ONE question you've already given a stupid, crappy SEMBLANCE of an answer to?

Evasive. Jumpy. Poor case-building, in addition to riding said poor case as long as possible. My certainty is riding 80% at the moment...

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Reading through CKD's rebuttal, I'm struck with the sense that he is going into this doing what he accuses Regfan of. Both of them are on my list, so I'm not really certain which of the two I should believe, but I do find many of CKD's counterpoints to Reg's initial ISO stab to be reaching. More on this when Reg answers though, I suppose.

To answer the question posed to me: I didn't notice that Reg had actually done that, to be honest. And if he had, it certainly wasn't against someone I had a town-read for.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

I'm reasonably certain that it does what the wiki said. A NORMAL doctor behaves the way magnetic said.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Going in order, the combination of the two quotes is not QUITE the same. Both are playing poorly. Both are almost too scummy to be believed. The only difference is that I can easily see the specific behavior behind Bgg's actions able to be a town playing badly, far more likely then I could see what Yura is doing being town playing badly. Speicifically I've SEEN people do the same things as Bgg and turn out scum. I've never really seen any play at all like Yura's, and am, notably, no longer taking him as suspect number 1. And, about sympathetically projecting my own history, it's not exclusively mine. I've seen enough other players to do it to feel a common, definite theme between all of those prior events, and Bgg's playstyle.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

And very like every time I've seen it before the person keeps digging themselves a deeper and deeper hole the whole time. Frustrating.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

In fairness, Maxous, I did, in fact, give him a short list of things, you just didn't quote the post in which I did. I'm waiting on his opinions, which he promised today, but I'm finding a disturbing pattern of "I'll tell you tomorrow"

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Alright, since you are stupid on TOP of being scum...

mafia edit:

on which particular things

Try...absolutely everything that has gone on this game so far that you've ignored. From the RQS thing early on that you haven't said a thing about, on to the magnetic thing which you almost entirely ignored, or maybe any of the debates so far that you've said nothing about. Your 'case' against me is the most content we've gotten from you all game, and I'll be damned if it's of any quality at all.

Here. Right here. I gave you a list of possible things you might have had opinions about, but which you said nothing to. You have done nothing but occasionally take a pot shot at me. Even with Bgg coming under heavy fire, you have been suspiciously quiet. You could give us on opinion on that, for example! What do you think about Bgg's various accusations? What do you think about CKD's lurking, or Regfan being all shepherd-ie. SAY SOMETHING THAT MATTERS.

Here, I gave him a short list of matters which I'd like his opinion on. It doesn't encompass EVERYTHING, and some things aren't exactly relevant anymore, but he didn't give opinions on them when they WERE relevant.

And to Bgg, I suppose he has only said so once, but his history of posting once a day and saying nothing makes me disbelieve his 'tomorrow' claim.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

The second quote was after, the first quote was before. He ignored both. Admittedly my reasoning at first for voting him was stretching just a bit, I've grown more confident in it since. He is now officially the only person in the game who has failed to contribute anything(Ignoring Yura, of course, but we all already pretty much have our eyes on her)

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Me and andrew have a fundamental disagreement of what this game is about.
I'm not liking the fact that you're ignoring everyone in favor of me, and calling it a town history, Truant. There was a lot going on ASIDE from my actions, and it's more then a little misleading.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

also, please look at my sig

I hate making this argument, but this is just...bad. Do we really want somebody who openly admits to the fact that he'll skim through cases? It just doesn't seem town productive. And I'll read through his prior post and give a reply in a second. I just really wanted to point this out.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

repeating:so things to note: i was at mcc tourney when magnetic was getting owned and erm i said bgg was oppourtunistic.
other things to note: i have school, i come home, i do hw, i read mafiascum, i say something, i sleep, etc. happy??

alright: rqs stuff: too late for that
magnetic: i was at mcc tourney, then school as i said above.
my case against you: i find it meritable??? for example, as maxous has stated, you actually only started on me after i accused you. i didnt occasionally take a pot shot at you? in fact, i think i attacked you first.
i already said bgg was being opportunistic
ckd lurking: null on that

@volkan, lurking doesnt mean not reading, it means not posting on purpose. ffs.
@ maxous, to your question, i wouldnt hammer as i even said i was gonna defend him due to him being a troll in my modded game
and i find that your fence sitting --> saying andrew94> surprise. then saying surprise still = leaning town read.
what the hell am i then? super town read?

subgenius: conversation to yura looks like coaching

unfos ckd fos maxous fos subgenius

You're finally giving opinions, of which I pretty much approve. On the downside, though, the opinions themselves are a little off. I didn't say you occasionally took a pot shot at me. I said that I watch lurkers, but they sometimes bring themselves to my attention by forming crappy cases. If you'd done exactly what you did but to another player, I'd still be voting you now, only we MIGHT have been able to get a little farther in things because there wouldn't be your ability to muddy waters by bringing up OMGUS as a defense.

Another small problem I have is that you are, apparently, fos-ing maxous...for thinking you're town...And you're fos-ing Sub for a reason that, on the surface looks nice, but in practice is stretching at best. Currently thinking an Andrew/Yura team, or possibly one of the two is SK. Given their dialogue, I'm thinking that Reg and CKD are likely both town, but I haven't had more then one or two games with an SK before(And one of the setups was REALLY weird) so I'm not exactly sure how they read.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Another small problem I have is that you are, apparently, fos-ing maxous...for thinking you're town...And you're fos-ing Sub for a reason that, on the surface looks nice, but in practice is stretching at best. Currently thinking an Andrew/Yura team, or possibly one of the two is SK.

Given their dialogue,

I'm thinking that Reg and CKD are likely both town,

but I haven't had more then one or two games with an SK before(And one of the setups was REALLY weird) so I'm not exactly sure how they read.

Any reason you changed your mind about CKD?

The bit in italics, before the bit you bolded.

soz for triple post, but i thought the most susopicious post was surprises's deflecting to me by saying i lurk

Stop. Saying. This. It's stupid, and meaningless. You can't just say "he's deflecting" without giving some sort of reason or justification. No, I meant that in your own post, your actual REASONING GIVEN was that he found you town, and it made you suspicious. You're, once again, stawmanning and answering a different question. It might actually be exadurating for denial(not sure the name for this fallacy) but none the less. Your reasoning, as I quoted in the post you replied to, was that you yourself said your reasoning was that he found you town. And yes, I did say "thank you for content, but here's why your content is wrong." It's not 'like' I said it. I thought the things you said were wrong, and I said so, but I'm not going to keep on you for lurking now that you've stopped.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Proper answer to Max: Their exchange doesn't read like a scum trying to defend himself from town. Or at the very least, they both feel like they're scum-hunting. I can't say anything about SK(in theory they should be scum-hunting during the day too, but again, no experience playing with one to speak of)

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

My problem with what you said at the end there Sub is that I often worry about looking town when I play town. I think carefully about everything I say hoping it's not going to come off as being a scummy thing to do. Because town don't want to be thought of as scum any more then scum do.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

@ surprise, dude that wasnt to you, someone asked me which post was the most suspicious, and i said yours.
also, why do you repeatedly refer to my lurking,. i am posting exactly the same times as before (once to twice a day) and suddently im not lurking? lol/


@volkan, acitve lurking is reading and not posting. im reading AND posting

@everyone, more after homework

also, bgg feudin slipped

fos bgg

You aren't posting any more...but you're SAYING more. You're actually SAYING things when you post now. At times they're dumb things, but lurking is a lack of CONTENT not lack of posts. And yes, stupid fits, because this has been said, like, 50 times already.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

True enough, but when I make a case, I think carefully on how I'm doing it, to try and make sure it looks like a case a town would make, and not anything else. I suppose it comes from a lack of experience, but nearly every time I post I look over it several times and try to make sure I don't look like scum, no matter what role I play.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

For fuck sake Bgg, stop proving me wrong so hard >.>

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Proving you wrong as in proving my theories to be correct,
Or were you saying that you thought I was innocent, and then I do something super-scummy in your opinion?

That last bit. I'm trying my best to prove you're newb town, and then you say something that breaks your own records on the 'scum' scale. This is incredibly frustrating.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Idea: Let's listen to Max, drop the subject, and stick to a real question: Who do you think is scum, Bgg?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Quick question, unrelated: How many days are left in this Day?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

This is stupid. Just. All of this is completely pointless, and I don't know which one of you four I should hate for continuing it.


Also, Max. Bad question. Bgg was crucified earlier for that EXACT question.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

I'm not sure I like the phrase "point of no return" From Sub. It sounds too much like you're either a) intending to lynch him for being useless, town or no(this is a mistake) or b) intending to keep him even if you think he's scum just for being useful.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Two things. First, you have now gone back to 100% bandwagon participation, and second, just because you say "hey, don't mean to do x..." doesn't mean you aren't doing X

That said, he is reading extraordinarily scummy. I just wanted to make clear that I was aware. Votecount?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

You haven't posted in over two days, and you pop in right after your name is mentioned with a promise of giving an update within the next 24 hours? That's bs.

strong fos on CKD

This is a sentiment I mirror.

Also, if this whole Bgg thing doesn't cut the hell out, I'm very close to doing something undeniably stupid. >.>

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Alright I read over

Plan B

Unvote

VOTE: Truant

Explain this, please. I haven't seen much case against truant, I don't think.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

It's not the size of the ISO. It's what you do with it. And though his posts have been few in number, they've been higher in content. Sometimes content I disagree with, but he's still been saying stuff, so I'm willing to wait for him to give his reasoning behind few posts before I start trying to dissect his short post history. I also hate not having very much to make a case on.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

i don't think of truant of being a mafia just cause he's not posting anything for awhile that is because i just think that he's on a vacay like me and trying to handle both stuff but as for CKD it was very suspicious of him to suddenly pop up after his name came up and then suddenly deciding not to post for the nxt 24h. i also think that during this time he's either lurking or

making a plan on who to kill next...

Scumslip, in reference to scum being worried about an SK more then anything else?

Also, Truant is allowed to go on vacay, but CKD is scummy for not posting for 24h?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

You're saying he's hanging back to plan who to kill next. Aside from being silly in concept, it also implies that he and he alone has the decision. Which means he can't be mafia, as mafia lynches are group decision. Which means you wouldn't suspect him of being a mafia, but instead of being SK, who IS entirely and solely in control of thier kills.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

She, not he, and as stated earlier, I've yet to see any good evidence to keep Andrew or Yura alive, so if it comes to it, I'll happily throw my hand in with a Yura lynch

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Quick point to make: You're being a little childish at times, with eye rolling and so forth, and I don't know that I'd consider that a 'pro-town' behavior. Given that you're currently one of the three or four focuses of attention, I don't know that it's unfair to be childish, though.

On the other hand, you seem to think Reg is tunneling or focusing soley on you, and neither is really true. My impression(without doing an iso) is that he's been hunting around just as much as any of us have(And frankly, I'd be tempted to venture more then you have been, but in fairness you've been harried to even just keep posting by the looks of other game)

I find that both of you are hunting around for scum fairly reasonably considering that you are short on markedly short on time(the odds that you're lurking mafia in both this game and another current one are...pitiful, at best), and he's been working fairly reasonable cases. My two doubts are the general weakness of a lot of your replies to Reg's case against you(I'll let him point them out, since it IS his case after all), and that I'm fairly sure an SK would also be realistically hunting mafia as well, both for day AND night kills.


Mafia edit: I really, really dislike both those walls, CKD. It's not really you disputing anyone, so much as basically ad hominim-ing your way through it and not really making any sort of defensive counter case beyond 'nuh-uh!' or 'no, YOU!'. I can't quite put it into words and am being rushed out the door at the moment, so in a couple hours when I get back, if nobody else has put their finger on what I mean, I'll reread and break down what's wrong with it all.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

the bgg vote wasnt much of a strong scum sus like which i kinda have on ckd it was more of to see how he would react and base on it.... and for now my sus are not that big yet for i have no big evidence yet...:/

Okay, a few things here. First, there is a fricking LOT of evidence. It's incredible to imagine that you've got none. Secondly, what did you learn from his reaction to your vote? Third, I generally disagree with the defence "I didn't mean my vote, I was just testing them." It pretty well gives you a blank cheque to vote whoever you want for no reason.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

No, I don't mean evidence against you. There is a bunch of really scummy behavior from you, Bgg, but I'm still confident that it's all just town fumbling. I meant that there's a lot of evidence floating around this game for her to have NONE on ANYBODY.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

ermm i just noticed. if you look at ckd, earlier, he calls me dumbass (or something) for my comment of his '1000 games under belt'. later on, he quotes my comment AGAIN and makes a different response. infact, as i look at his post, it seems hes just opening 2 windows, one typing, and the other one quoting and responding to absolutely everything. this reads scum.

also, as i have said, yuri seems to be a guy..

What's that bit about opening two windows? Explain this a little more please.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

If I understand that correctly, that's pretty well what I do. I usually have one browser open to pull quotes from, and one to actually type at, for cases and such.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

For example?

And I'm with Sub(though that wall of unfocused remarks can put together to form a legitimate case)

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

We have been getting mad at players in this game for refusal to give opinions. I'd find it far easier to believe he is just attempting to avoid looking like he's refusing as well by only commenting on the most immediate situation.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Firstly, it's a null-tell. I don't think it really can be suspicious or un-supicious

Secondly, I'm going to do something completely dumb and tell you that that second question is tantamount to fishing for a roleclaim.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

No, andrew, that's wrong. Giving a whole lot of opinions isn't avoiding attention. The only person whose attention he is avoiding by posting a wall of text is your's. He does plenty of answering, and in two posts gives me more information then you've given me all game.

tl;dr: Even if the opinions aren't regarding something currently going on, knowing what his opinions are is valuable information.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

It just is a disproportionally small thing for you to lock onto. I don't think repeating yourself once or twice after a 2 day haitus is a scumtell, and I find it weird that you're locking onto it.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

im not listening to a thing you are saying, and it seems to me you are discreting making me stop 'looking into this' by a hidden threat of 'weird' = 'if you talk more about it = i vote'

rofl

Can someone ELSE explain to him what's wrong with this whole mess of a post, then?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

The second question was why I don't think Bgg is scum. And no, I really can't. Or shouldn't, anyway.

And Andrew, I only wish I had a second vote so I could threaten you, but since I'm already voting for you...there's no threat. Just me seeing you cough up another completely retarded "you're deflecting argument." and telling you that it's not really 'town' to fixate on a tiny, unimportant piece of 'evidence'.
Seriously, I cannot be the only one who finds his broken-record method of crying 'deflection' to be at least a little suspicious.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

im not listening to a thing you are saying, and it seems to me you are discreting making me stop 'looking into this' by a hidden threat of 'weird' = 'if you talk more about it = i vote'

rofl

Can someone ELSE explain to him what's wrong with this whole mess of a post, then?

erm no because i think my case is good, and your threatening me with 'weird'.
it may be that you think i am scum, thus u are refuxing everything i am saying, but you are scum so..

See, what makes me certain he's scum is that he says "You're threatening me with weird" and I say "No, I'm telling you you're being suspicious" and then he says "you're threatening me with weird"

AND THEN, he says "maybe you think I'm scummy, but it doesn't matter cause you're actually scum." THAT IS NOT DEFENSE! THIS IS NOT A TOWN PLAY. Forget the meta and everything else, THIS is the worst, scummiest play I have seen so far this game.

Also, prep for him replying with either a repeat of his "threat" accusation, or another muttering about "deflecting"

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

I'm not fence-sitting, truant, and the fact that you continually misrepresent people is unnerving. Bgg is not scum. I'm not on any sort of fence. I am clearly and openly on the 'Bgg is town' side of the fence

And you called it a catchup/review post, but didn't mention anybody but me. I'm not asking you to, or not to, read every single thing said. But, don't say "catchup post" and then only read me. I wasn't the only one walking while you were gone.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

walking should be talking in my last sentence.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

andrew: accusing people of deflecting while doing so himself for well onto 200 posts.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Also, you're discrediting my most recent point against you with "Eh, doesn't matter, he's scum". And no, I'm not trying to keep us muttering about each other. I'm trying to point out that you are, so far, the scummiest player in this game, and that we should have probably killed you by now. You have, time and time again, either refused outright to explain yourself, or given crappy, often strawman or ad hominem retorts to cases against you. You cling to one stupid argument or the other until you can't anymore, and then you resort to the nonsensical. You are so extraordinarily defensive, you actually take a swing at me(which is your current favorite defense) against things that aren't even attacks.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

You are not tasking my posts in as a whole. Bgg is playing in a way that looks fairly scummy. I have already expressed my exact reasons for asserting that he is town

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Just because someone doesn't read scum doesn't mean they read town. Hence you're at null, and Sub is town. I honestly don't quite see the town read myself, and I have both of you squarely in 'null' land, but that's the nice thing about opinions.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

The difference is, he's finding you hiding behind the logical nature of your system, and logic is neither pro-town, nor pro-scum. It is a null-tell, and since your entire play and playstyle is based off of the logic, QED: null-read.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Fair enough, to both Bgg and Vollk. I'm going to leave that explination to Reg himself, since I can't interpret his intentions from his words, just his meaning.

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I agree with truant's suspiciousness. I don't like anyone who doesn't post much, and most of what I've seen from him has been wagoning. Also, I think I was the first person to vote Yura today, not him. Don't really know when D2 started, though, or I'd go back and check to make certain.

Also

O.o Yay for basically admitting that you're scum.

I really, really dislike this post. I have so very, VERY rarely seen such conceit and arrogance from town players. It is simple not productive.

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I don't know that I agree with voting her alone being bandwagonish. Voting her while having had no inclination of doing so day 1, on the other hand...

and yes, andrew, truant said that. But you're doing the same thing in just saying "oh, wow, is he ever wrong, ha!" and then not justifying it.

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Andrew: I meant, your argument isn't one. You're just saying that he's wrong, and hoping nobody asks you to explain WHY he's wrong. For example: What Vollkan has been doing, along with Subg for a little bit now. Their arguments ring town, or null at worst, to me. You, on the other hand, just said he was filled with fail, and didn't bother to try and offer any reasoning or anything. Weak attempt at actual content/argument to support your attempt to continue an attempt you don't really have any evidence for.

In other news: Bgg. I don't really see mafia trying to use his current argument as a "get attention off me" gambit. I don't realistically see scum thinking that it's going to work.

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I'm going to simply say that he is town. If him and I both survive till D3, I will fullclaim. If I don't make it, then you have my claim. We're certain either way. A fullclaim now would be pointless danger.

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Because you guys all still clearly doubt me. It is entirely possible that the mafia could keep me around for the simple fact that you guys aren't sure.

Or at least, up until I was forced to explain this all.

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I am actually reasonably happy with your thoughts on things, Subg. It's pretty well exactly where my feeling lie. I'm only about half convinced of Truant, but I'm not as suspicious of anyone else, so he stays on my mafia list. I'd much prefer Andrew or Yura to go down(two primaries) and my thoughts of Yura as SK(which I did mention before as well) make me think that she's probably a good target #1, just to prevent a 2 kill night. I would be happy with a CKD lynch, and need a little more convincing on the Truant case, but would much rather see one of my primaries go. In that regard

unvote vote:yura

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I said in my post why I'm changing. I think Andrew is scum. I think Yura is SK. If we kill a mafia, we get two Nkills tonight. If we kill SK, we get one Nkill. This is a much better plan. I'm okay killing either, but I'd RATHER drop the person I think is SK. If it comes to it, I'll happily see either hang, but I consider it a much more sensible option to try and get rid of the one that might save a townie from meeting an unfortunate end in the night.

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Also, I don't like your post where you said that if Andrew flips scum, you think I'm his partner. That sounds too much like scum trying to bus and set up a chain-lynch to me.

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Seems to be that no less then five of us would like to see Yura go. Unless I am stunningly off on my reads, I don't see any reason not to just make it happen. If we wait to long and she replaces out, the confusion following would be too big a smoke screen for whoever replaces in, especially if we're right and she is SK. We would probably never catch her.

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No, if Yura replaces we lose info. Because whoever replaces in will always be able to say "That wasn't me, she was just playing bad" About anything Yura has already done.

And I already told you, 1: I'm less confident about lynching you then I am about andrew and yura, and 2: Kill who we think the sk is first. Good policy.

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let's entertain this scenario:

Yura is Sk. Yura plays as a complete newb, and is as obvscum as she was. New person replaces in. Plays pro-scum. All prior scumtells, no matter how valid(and in this hypothetical situation, correct), are suddenly easily shrugged off and ignored. We can't ask new player to explain anything Yura said, and new player has the advantage of, in good sense, us being unable to lynch them. THEY haven't done anything scummy. But on the other hand, there is no reasonable way we could have ANY sort of read on them. Extension or no, I don't see a person giving us more information in the next couple of days, then we already have on yura from the past couple of WEEKS. It's not bad logic, I've seen it done numerous times on this site. When someone is close to hammer, and then gets replaced out, things get complicated and impossible to figure unless the hammer is still dropped. I seriously want someone to explain this situation, in as much detail as I have, EXACTLY how leaving the replacement is a good idea(Note, if you WOULD have lyched Yura, why you now WOULDN'T lynch the replacement, even though they have the EXACT SAME ROLE)

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noted, Max and SC want ANOTHER FUCKING SHORTENED DAY....

this fact lowers Yura's scum factor in my mind...there is no point...

also SC, when you say "we" think she is the SK...who is we???

there is still more information to be had in this day (as the following votes display)

I for one would like to hear from both truant and yura's replacements TODAY so we can get their stances and opinions before another night goes by...

I don't want another shortened day. I want to not give an SK a free ticket. Rememer, the new player has the same role the old one did. If you thought Yura should go because she was scum, there's absolutely NO reason to let another player skate by. Sub happened to echo my thoughts a few posts ago as to who it feels like the SK is.

I have never, EVER seen allowing an obviously scummy player's replacement to survive turn out well.

Also, why does us STILL wanting her lynched lower her standing as scum? I think backing off at this stage is rediculous, and I absolutely dislike that our suspects are starting to drop like flies. It's going to make the rest of this game even harder and more difficult.

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I just don't see the benefit of letting the replacement take time to obsfucate the case against her. I'm happy to continue to extend the day, but let's remember that whoever replaces in is taking the place of a character who is obviously scum. I just have far too often seen people taken in by capable scum who used the 'that was just the person I replaced for. They were bad. But I'm good, and town!' thing.

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You're an idiot CKD. Not only for missing the soft-claim, but also for missing that I FUCKING SAID ME AND SUB HAD THE SAME OPINION. It's right in the thing you quoted.

And, to follow the, CKD is an idiot path, I told you why I swapped. If Andrew is scum, like I think he is, and Yura is SK, like I think she is, it is only intelligent to kill the SK first, to eliminate an NK. I explained this. Keep up or jump off. Simple as that. I wont keep repeating myself when my words are permanently etched into the internet.

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Thanks. And I think the biggest part is that she hasn't really showed any tendancy to work with anyone. It seems she doesn't care who gets lynched, mafia or not. Also, the 'threat' comment reads like an sk-slip to me.

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Yep. Shitty, I know. I've been trying to give as little info as possible, but time was being wasted, and things were getting otherwise shitty, so I had to act

Anyway, I stand by wanting to get rid of Yura. I can't imagine much being given by the replacement to change my mind, aside from a believable claim. At the end of the day, I'm fine going on with extending the day, but I'd like to try and innoculate us against the "Yura was bad, I'm not actually scum" argument, heh.

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v/la 2 days/

where is the entirety of your case on me ckd?

it seems ur just pissed i got you

@volkan, prob

Scummy. As. Hell. The whole "scum obviously caught" thing is arrogance that you don't see in town. Not often, and not with as little evidence as Andrew has, anyway.

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So. What you haven't really mentioned(That I noticed) CryMeARiver, is that your vote of Bgg means you doubt me. In context, that would require you to decide that I'm 1)lying, and 2)almost definitely scum. Aside from the fact that you latched onto a number of things that are, at worst, null-tells, and not really scum-tells at all in your attempts to build a new case on Bgg, that is.

I dislike that the replacement of one of the more easily accepted FOS is starting to rebuild a case that they could EASILY have read back and see that it has, with good reason, been dropped.

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So, Haylen...You think Bgg voting Andrew is opportunistic...but then the next line(and most of what you have said so far) shows you are suspicious of Andrew as well. Your choice of three players, all of whom want to see the other hang, is a pretty great bit of "safe" debate. After all, you aknowledge that you're going to be wrong, but ONE of them MUST be scum. I dislike this.

My list remains: Haylen, Andrew, CMAR. My vote isn't moving, but CMAR is making me a bit more certain about my mistrust of truant

@CMAR: So your read of Bgg was based on...? Because the posts you're quoting against him, lest I miss my guess, involve things both before, and after, it was sort of tentatively accepted that Bgg is clear. And my being unhappy with your reasoning has nothing to do with Haylen's post.

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Ah. So instead of rereading ANY of the game so far, but you still find someone scummy enough you think they should hang. Charming. The difference is, you're replacing in for a player who we already had a few people finding scummy(Myself somewhat included) so throwing a vote against you isn't entirely unreasonable. But you ADMIT to having no basis for a case besides one SINGLE post. And still throw a vote. Plus your last couple of posts combine with that to form a rather defensive opening line.

@Haylen: you're handily dodging all of my questions, and the threat at the end does you no favors. It's easy enough to pick those three. But I notice you don't really mention Yura-chi, for example, during your read. There are a LOT of players with that much scummy material going around, but you chose those three to more or less zero in on. This is why I find your choice of them suspect. There can't be two scum-teams(we've already gone over why, you'll get there eventually, I just dont' want to repost it). That, your "I think it's anti-town not to do this" statement, which is the same thing as saying "I'm just being a townie", and the instant defensiveness are all illuminating.

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Also, I supose I should clarify my stance: Finish reading. Then start judging. Especially mister "votes before reading". Srsly. THAT is anti-town.

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I'm not going to bother to say much more until others are in on it, or it's just going to turn into a rediculous, unproductive slap-fight. We've had enough of those as is.

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I'm not going to bother to say much more until others are in on it, or it's just going to turn into a rediculous, unproductive slap-fight. We've had enough of those as is.

... Then what the heck is the point of the forum in mafia at all? Why don't we just send people in PM's to the mod that we want lynched and skip the discussion part all together? You basically just said "I'm not going to respond to the points that you brought up and instead I'll wait for other people to hopefully come in and back me up." Those "slap-fights" are how we find scum.

Fine. Your post explaining why you don't think you're being defensive is, itself, incredibly defensive. I find all of your arguments shallow, and it is COMPLETELY stupid to vote based on one single post, no matter how scummy that post might be ESPECIALLY without having read the game so far. It shows that you don't really care WHO gets lynched, or what the validity, and your "he wasn't close to lynch" argument is worthless. If you put a vote on someone, it's a sign you want them dead. Period, dot, end of sentence. That is the purpose of a vote. And if you can REALLY decide someone is scum based on one post, we may as WELL just throw out one pm to the mod. It's not like you actually NEED to scumhunt, is it?

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Note on #44. This was after another player had, in depth, explained it. I didn't actually see a good point from Yura that wasn't parroted from someone else. You just can't tell that through the ISO.

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Also, before anyone calls me on suddenly vanishing, I'm off for supper for a couple hours.

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Double also: Just read Haylen's question: Honestly, you or andrew. I'm still happy thinking Yura was SK, and now you have inherited the mantle of my suspicion. Supper now.

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Oh. So you don't think he's scum. But you voted for him. Contradictory at best.

And please, PLEASE finish your reread. Seriously. And you find it odd that I said "I wont" and you demanded that I do, and then I listened to you and did?

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So your version of 'town' is obstinant and self-serving? You can't demand something, then decide it's scummy when someone listens to you. That's just bad logic.

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No. No no no no no.

"I'll be sure to night kill you" is a joke. There's is no WAY anyone who ISN'T scum looking to implicate an innocent would actually take something like that seriously.

And if you doubt me, well, you might just not see morning

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An interesting point of fact: Both of our replacements have swam in an OCEAN of contradictions.

And, question to Reg: What did you think of Yura? Keeping in mind that Haylen is building on Yura's basis

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Can we just let Andrew take a swing? It might be me being used to games that only last two or three days, but I'm pretty tired of having my top three constantly battling for who gets to act scummiest.

If it hasn't been explained by the time I get up why Andrew's latest post makes me want to see him dead, I'll explain then. Otherwise, goodnight folks.

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Out and say it, both of you. You either disbelieve my claim, or don't. Make your call now, and stop pussyfooting around. It's weak, and at BEST a null-tell. At this stage, given my suspicions of both of you, failing to give a proper opinion at this stage is dodgy at best.

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No, he didn't because you made an answer that was entirely incorrect for the post you quoted, which means one of two things. Either you misquoted, or you were making up whatever you thought might work. Now, since you have already stated that you did not, in fact, misquote, then there can only really be one logical conclusion.

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No, I didn't do the same thing as you. You skipped a WHOLE reread in favor of a vote. I skipped a post or two. World of difference.

That aside, none of the places I've asked it before are on this site, and most of the sites it has been on require a register.

As a side note, I've found that, more often then not, scum players lock onto the question and try and drag someone down for it. Just saying.

Also, I've noticed that, in spite of us wanting to lynch yura not too long ago, lo and fucking behold, Haylen has kind of managed to convince you all that YURA WAS TOWN. This is, to say the least, unnacceptable. I'll ACCEPT and Andrew lynch, but I'm 90% more likely to think that Yura was SK then that ANdrew was, and at this point, it is in EVERYBODY's best interest, scum and town alike, to kill the SK. ANYTHING we can do to peel it back to 1 death a night rather then 2 is INCTREDIBLY beneficiel.

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Also, being unyielding in spite of the whole down disagreeing is not, in my mind, pro-town. Town players are NEVER going to be certain, and so other people's opinions SHOULD matter, and help change your mind. The only people who can actually afford to be entirely certain and unwavering are the Scum, who have no doubts.

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1)I'm not seeing a lot of progress. All I can say is that I hope it doesn't take 15 weeks.
2)

Unfortunately, your vote still counts whether or not you've read enough to make it an informed vote. Clearly you realize that you're missing important information, so I have to wonder why you're still willing to cast a vote without educating yourself about all of the players. The best explanation I can think of is that you don't care who gets lynched (as long as it's town), which would be the mafia stance.

3)I don't find the lurking necessarily scummy by itself, but I would describe the posts I've seen from you so far as somewhat empty and without much bearing on the game. If you say you don't have much time, I have to believe that for now, but you have had time to make SOME posts, and those posts have not instilled me with much confidence in your alignment. At best you're a town player who is not spending his limited game time wisely. At worst, you're a scum player who is consciously dragging his feet.
4)You're right, I took your ISO out of context, apologies.

5)Look, nobody decides how you execute your re-read besides you. So far, you've addressed the first two pages, and kept up with a discussion that you started from building a case from a single post from the last page when you subbed in. IMO, neither of these have been especially productive. You've had time to do at least a few things, but the things you have chosen have not been productive, and you have to expect to be judged on that. It's awfully convenient for you to argue that you should be allowed to live through the day because you haven't had time to catch up. Also, I hope realize by now that people are finding you suspicious because you're

voting

despite admitting that you don't have the necessary information to make a good vote.

Wow. The bold parts are strikingly correct. I'll tell you what, two things:

1) I'll

Unvote: Bg

You are absolutely correct that I don't have enough information to make a good vote. I trust the town that Bg is nearly clear and the fact that I am leaving my vote on Bg is indeed a mafia stance.

2) If I cannot commit a thorough reread before the deadline, I will replace out. The only thing I would have accomplished would be bringing unnecessary suspicion to a town slot. It really has been tough for me. I visited Notre Dame's campus, I've had multiple soccer games/practices, plenty of homework (IB program sucks), and a TB test, but mafia should be a commitment. If I can't fully commit to the game, I shouldn't be playing in it and I'm sorry. I apologize to the town for my negligence of the game and I promise that if I can't put time towards it in the next two days, I will replace out.

1)

fos: CMAR

Changing your mind is scummy.
2) This reads as "I'm seriously town. I wouldn't be playing if I wasn't. Also, pitty me, but don't do ANYTHING until the 6th, which is, conveniently, the end of the day, letting me live through to D3. And, I'm town"


Lucky for you, I'd LIKE to see you make it to D3, since I'm still reasonably sure Andrew is SK, but I also hold out the possibility that YOU are SK, which means if I DO end up contributing to you swinging, I wont actually be sad.


preview edit: Haylen, you have yet to adress the all important: Do you think I'm scum? Because, as I've stated, Bgg is town. So, since you still would like to believe he is scum. Knowing this is true, you've chosen to decide that 1: Andrew is right, and I'm lying, and 2: He's also scum, and needs to swing. These are in fairly strong contradiction to each other, so you're going to have to pick one of the two opinions, and stick to it.

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Oh, So you'll post...but you wont adress DIRECT QUESTIONS about your suspicions. This is kind of problematic. You suspect someone, but wont defend why.

If you are in fact sick, my sympathies, and I hope you feel better. If you're scum dodging difficult questions by lying, then I hope you swing.

Side note: I still want to see Haylen swing, in the Haylen/Andrew/CMAR order.

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I'm asking an opinion, not for absolutes.

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Durp. Sure Yura/Haylen is SK. Dunno why I said Andrew. Yura's slot was the one I had eyes on. I dislike the(weak) implication of the last statement, and you yourself said that NO MATTER WHAT changing your mind is scummy. I'm not the hypocrit, because I'm not the one who said it, and then DID IT. That makes you the hypocrit. I don't think changing your mind is scummy. But you do, and then you DID IT. This is a problem, as you did something you consider scummy.

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So, nobody else is going to react to the fact that Haylen apparently honestly thinks that there is a great, slick conspiracy between me, andrew, reg and bgg?

I only WISH it were something so complex. Firstly, I am suspicious of Reg, and want to see Andrew hang as my second favorite(Next to Haylen herself). Second, this declaration comes with NO evidence to speak of, as far as I can tell. If I DID miss your reasoning, feel free to walk me through the steps by which you think that people ONLY you are suspicious are actually a scumteam?

As a side note, your promises mean absolutely nothing, and I am still sure Haylen is SK. I'm sitting at about 80/20 that it's Haylen/Andrew. I don't really see any other combination it could reasonably be.

Also, you say you want more experience in your games, but then ask me how often I have played with Sks, implying that you are more familiar with it then I am.

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Sweet, votes on me. I'd ask for cases (which no one provided) but at this point, I'd rather find someone scummy than defend myself.

Andrew dug himself a bigger pit, and I NEARLY decided that he was still worth lynching, until no less then two of my top suspects were voting him. That, and THIS POST IS BS AS HELL.

unvote:vote cmar

Also, preview edit: everything I can see CMAR has posted since I made this and promptly lost internet is absolutely horseshit. "Sc is town, declares Bgg town...but Bgg isn't town. I mean, I don't doubt what SC is saying...but...well, that thing he said? It's not right. But I'm not doubting him"

Contradiction = scumtella

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Who's to say what I really am. Not I, certainly, and not any of you. Votecount, even non-mod, would be nice.

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Regfan. Why do you insist on defending CMAR? If CMAR doubts me, there's little that can be said except that she considers me a lier. I have 99% certainty that Bgg is town. This is a factual statistic. CKD, you are on my list after Andrew and Haylen. I'm not sure which of you four I would like to see go down next, but it is DEFINITELY that. There is NO reason to try and decide that, given a good LIST of reasons, it would be scummy to stop trying to hop off the Andrew lynch. Not that I WAS getting off andrew. I was getting off Haylen. But there's absolutely NO reason for you to be watching me that closely, is there? Except, y'know, had you a legitimate attempt to scumhunt me. CMAR needs to claim, as I THINK him and Andrew are both at L-1. Your votecount wasn't qutie right Regfan, but I think it's close enough.

Also, I'm afraid I'm with Bgg on this one. If someone does something scummy, it SHOULD make you think they're scum, at least more then you once did. Now, on the other hand, Bgg DID play a game that would have, had I not had my own information, made me think he was scum. So town players can play a scummy game. BUT, a scummy game makes you think they're scum. That's the point.

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Oh, and the both of you need to stop arguing. It's pointless, and wasting time deflecting attention from our actual targets.

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Alright, well, we've got VERY little time, and someone needs to die. If we don't want me to make it Andrew, one of us best kill CMAR soon. I give 5 minutes

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unvote. Vote:Andrew

Fuck it.

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You'll find out tomorrow. I promise full disclosure tomorrow, regardless. I don't appreciate the claim-fish

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Voting for survival is not a town-tell, fyi. But, it's moot now.

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I wont know what to say until the cardflip comes, but for all our sakes, I think Andrew might want to be very careful what he says

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good luck town.
im neutral

So you

were

the SK.

I told you so, I told you so, I told you so, I told you so, I told you so............

His "not mafia" comment, though, makes me think you're right. I just REALLY hope he wasn't exceptionally shitty town. I always get regretty jitters after hammering >.>

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Properly, I just wanted to point out that only Andrew, as far as I know, was unable to keep up through reg's posting. I DOUBT it was an attempt to delay him.

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And, honestly, I dont' see discussion giving us any new information until we know who's dying tonight.