Metropolis: Revisited [Game Over]

[Kublai Khan]

/confirm

[Kublai Khan]

Strike everyone to 40% for the win

I admit, that idea popped into my head as well.

[Kublai Khan]

People piling on DrippingGoofball for making a joke?

*sits back and starts eating popcorn*

[Kublai Khan]

UT, please elaborate on the scumslip you see in DGB's #55. I don't like either Kublai Khan's or curiouskarmadog's reactions to it as well. Oddly enough, fine with ThAdmiral's reaction.

Good job settling in on some nice confirmation biases for the rest of the game.

Strike: MagnaOfIllusion

Out of the RDS we go!

Don't like this. Too contrived. It looks like a "Look at me! I'm crappy town!" scum-tell.

The Vote system is also silly because it is a simple way to control player's striking. I have now made it so that more people will either strike me or Magna if we are going to make it through this day with a "lynch," otherwise we all now have a wasted strike on a player.

So.. You hate the fact that the voting system controls the town's striking ability, so you're going to try to control it yourself by forcing a 2 player run-off. Brilliant.



I'm liking Albert's posting so far. Except for post 87. Because it's scummy.

The Wraith wagon is worthwhile. Being anti-gamebreaking is synonymous with being pro-saving yo' scum ass.

vote: Wraith

[Kublai Khan]

For FUCKS sake people.

1. BEING ANTI-GAME BREAKING ISN'T FUCKING ALIGNMENT-TELLING AT ALL. SOME PEOPLE PLAY THIS

GAME

TO ENJOY THE FUCKING

GAME

.

Hey, you know what makes me really enjoy games? Winning. Do you know why people try to figure out if they can game-break games? Because they are looking for the optimal way to win.

AGar, are you going to sit there and tell me you never visited the special warp room in Super Mario Brothers? Or used the Contra Code? Typed "iddqd"? Used Game Genie? A crack? Opened an editor?

Liar.

I'm sure that ReaperCharlie included a defense against a giant obvious game-breaking strategy, but it doesn't hurt to poke and prod to see if there might be something overlooked. Being against game-breaking strategies is akin to being pro-confusion. Scummy.

2. TOOGELOO'S STRIKE WAS

NOT IN THE RIGHT FUCKING SYNTAX

. HE DIDN'T BURN HIS STRIKE.

Hmm.. You may be right about that. I'll wait for the mod's ruling.

I dislike this post.
Attacks Toog then votes Wraith.....
Also admitting that your bandwagoning.

...
You dislike people that can carry two thoughts in their head at the same time?

[Kublai Khan]

@Kublai: I dislike people who set up their vote for the next day.

Let me get this straight. I called out Toogeloo for his bad play and voted Wraith because of his bad strategy... Are you interpreted that as "Kublai Khan is setting up next day lynches"?

It's absolutely amazing how much scumminess you've packed into one little line.

A) Misrepresenting: I never stated I was trying to lynch either.
B) What is scummy about wanting to setup multiple lynches. There are 10 scum in this game. We are nipple-deep in scum.
C) You ignored that I also called out Magua.
D) You ignored that Lady Lambdadelta made a very similar post here that you overlooked.

unvote
Vote: bunnylover

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Please, tell me which part you liked more: the part where I questioned something I found scummy, or the part where I gave my reactions to other people's posts.

Also, I'm quite serious on this Hrezs wagon. Starts with "Tempted to strike Toogeloo for that strike", ends with "I believe that we should find some sort of consensus before placing strikes." These two thoughts, they are not connected, since if he actually believed the second, he wouldn't've said the first.

I like you already, Magua.

I also like your Hrezs read. What do you think of bunnylover-scum?

@GummyBear: Quit posting in italics. It's annoying.

[Kublai Khan]

@Kublai:
A) Isn't the point of a vote to lynch someone? Just because you didn't go, "I WANT THIS PERSON LYNCHED" doesn't mean you didn't want that person lynched. You said yourself the wagon was "worthwhile" which to me read as you would be willing to lynch Wraith.
You were making your stand on Toog in that entire post without even mentioning Wraith except for 8 words. To me it would make more sense to place a vote on Toog if you had a lot to say about him more then a vote on Wraith when you had very little to say.
B) Just because their are 10 scum in this game doesn't mean I should ignore people setting up lynches. Thanks for admitting that you are setting up lynches. How do you know Wraith/Toog will flip scum?
C) Don't understand it. Have you relooked at this thread to see that more then one person was opposed to breaking the game, yet your vote is only on Wraith because other people are voting you.
D) Shifting the spotlight now? LLD FOS Toog and clearly stated that she wasn't sure about Toog action other then it was Anti Town. You didn't make a stance at all. When votes start piling up on Toog you can just come out and say, "Oh I wanted Toog to be lynched Day 1 too!" or when people forgive Toog for his action you really don't have to do anything because you never took a stance if that was scummy, anti-town, null, or whatever.

A) How have you played 12 games and don't yet know that not all votes are intended as lynch votes? Have you never heard of pressure votes?
B) Explain to me how wanting to lynch more than one person in a game with 10 known scum makes someone scummy.
B.5) I don't know is Wraith or Toogeloo will flip scum, but I heavily suspect it (more Toogeloo than Wraith)
C) What? Re-write that in a manner than makes sense.
D) Again, what? I called Toogeloo's actions a scum-tell. Do you not understand my position on Toogeloo's actions? Let me repeat it. It was a scum-tell. Do you have any questions as to what I think of Toogeloo's actions? Are you sure you want to state that I didn't "make a stance" on Toogeloo?

The only good part of #135 doesn't even have to do with this game. Kublai Khan, are you scum?

No. And what's wrong with my posts?

[Kublai Khan]

Your case is terrible.
And I don't know whether that Magua interaction is scummy or not, but I don't like it regardless.

You'll give yourself an aneurysm looking that hard into nothingness.

[Kublai Khan]

@Kublai Khan: Your ignoring the points I'm making and responding with questions instead.
But right their, you admit that Toog action is a scum - tell, yet you vote Wraith?

Honestly, I'm trying to understand your points a little more clearer.

Yes, I admit to having suspicions of both Toogeloo and Wraith as of my Post 114. How is that a scumtell? You don't think that you're stretching the boundaries of interpretation by saying that I'm setting up "multi-day lynches"?

Explain to me why you think town wouldn't keep a lit of multiple scum suspects to vote for in a multi-scum setup.

Hell, with multiple scum groups, even scum are keeping lists of multiple scum suspects.

You just admitted that your vote on Wraith was a pressure vote, but a pressure vote can be placed at any time and he already had about 8 so what is one more going to do to him? Why would you vote someone who you believe is SCUM to vote someone who you want to pressure?

I double checked, I was vote #5 against Wraith. I put the vote to pressure him because often people who make a scumslip early in a large game will go silent and hope that their action will get overlooked and forgotten in favor of something else that happens (say.. Toogeloo's strike move).

How do you even do a pressure vote on people who you believe are scum? Isn't that like a contridiction? "Oh I believe this person is scum, but if this wagon doesn't work out, my vote was nothing but a pressure vote."
Really?

There's no contradiction. A pressure vote is a vote to pressure the target to post more. WTF does alignment have to do with it?

I don't even understand your accusation in the second part of the quote. Hell, I don't understand your whole mafia philosophy. Are you suggesting that pro-town players should only ever "lynch-vote"?

[Kublai Khan]

@Kublai Khan:
In my opinion if you have a scum read on someone why not vote that scummy person instead of trying to pressure vote someone?
The way you put it was more of who everyone "will" lynched the next day more then what I would expect people to say which is who everyone should keep their eyes on as they can be potential scum.

Because I've played with Toogeloo. He's not the type to vanish after doing something stupid. I don't know Wraith.

Your vote been number 5 would fit in as a pressure vote, but I didn't read it as a pressure vote.

Then the problem is on your end.

The problem with a pressure vote is that the whole logic behind it. If the lynch goes through and the person flips scum you get to say that you were on a wagon that lead to a scum flip, while if the lynch doesn't go through you can just say it was a pressure vote.
Its an easy way out of a wagon/on a wagon imo.

No. If my pressure vote is on a wagon that looks like it's going to lynch, then I state my desire to be on that lynch-wagon. If I feel there's something off or scummy about the wagon, then I unvote.

I have no mafia philosophy v_v.

Obviously.

At majority, first we force the lurkers and dissidents to strike our target, then we strike our target.

Isn't that at odds with the speed-strike plan?

[Kublai Khan]

A good point is being made reminding everyone of multiscum - KK's scumhunting is not necessarily a town tell.

Why are you singling me out?

Bunnylover's play so far is the towniest of all the Bunnylover games I've seen; seriously. Putting BunnyLover into the null-to-town category.

Really??? Link me a game for comparison...

I like KK, his posts feel genuine.

<canadian>I'm not your buddy, pal.</canadian>

Several problems with this.

1. You assume that I think what I did was stupid and would be more ardent to defend my playstyle.
2. Several players have been vocal about not listening to a word I have to say, so why should I put forth the effort today? I am clearly not going any where any time soon with doubt of my alignment, and my less vocal playstyle this game.
3. You've played with me, what, once? Hardly makes you an expert on my playstyle. Just sayin'.

1. No, no.. You knew it would be controversial and generate discussion. I knew it would be stupid and a stunt because it was very doubtful that conversation would stall out in a game this large with this playerlist.
2. You should be vocal, because I'm going to be on your ass. You pulled a BIG LIE stunt, and I'm annoyed as hell about how well it's working.
2.5. Plus, if you are town, where is your post-event analysis of reaction to your strike? Who looks bad/good/indifferent?
3. Once more than Wraith. Just sayin'

[Kublai Khan]

Vote: Kublai Khan

All of his significant play thus far has been bad tunneling on Bunnylover and defending.
Bad tunneling because his primary case, found in ISO #5, is completely and totally terrible.

Um.. Okay.

I noticed that you're addressing the group as opposed to me directly. Do you want me to respond now, or to wait and see the reactions of everyone else first?

[Kublai Khan]

I'd love if you responded immediately.

Okay.

Vote: Kublai Khan

All of his significant play thus far has been bad tunneling on Bunnylover and defending.
Bad tunneling because his primary case, found in ISO #5, is completely and totally terrible.

A) Misrepresenting: I never stated I was trying to lynch either.
B) What is scummy about wanting to setup multiple lynches. There are 10 scum in this game. We are nipple-deep in scum.
C) You ignored that I also called out Magua.
D) You ignored that Lady Lambdadelta made a very similar post here that you overlooked.

This case was set off by a one-line post from Bunnylover, causing Kublai Khan to remark how amazing it was that that much scumminess was backed into one line.
A) The word "lynch" was not mentioned by Bunnylover at all.
B) The scummy part about setting up lynches in the first place is because they're lynching without thought. It's an even worse idea to lynch without thought when you have less room to make mistakes.
C) It was a one line post, not a case.
D) It was a one line post, not a case.

A) I checked back and you're actually correct on that. The word 'lynch' was never uttered by bunnylover in the post I was responding to. However, I replied as if he had, and he answered back as if he did.. so.. We both were on the same page. I read what he meant, and he confirmed what he meant.

B) Again, like I explained to bunnylover, I wasn't setting up multiple lynches. The first few days had generated a few leads, and I was following up on them. Having multiple suspects is not a scum-tell.

C) I wouldn't say that I've made a case on anyone. I've stated what I didn't like.

D) Not understanding this response. This is the case that bunnylover overlooked when choosing to respond to me. It's very similar to my post that he did reply to.

Cases like that are grossly over exaggerating, and it's hard for me to believe that KK was actually serious when posting it. And yet, he's been tunneling for the majority of the game on Bunny, without many mentions of anyone one else except for "oh I like XXXX's scum read of YYYY".

You're attacking style, not substance.

His reaction when I commented on his Magua interaction was scummy as well. Town reaction at that point would be to ask what interaction I was talking about/clarify what I meant, his scumreaction was to simply tell me that there was nothing there.

Thinking about it, I strongly disagree with your philosophy. The scum reaction would be to ask for clarification because there would be fear about what might have accidentally slippled. I reacted the way I did because I know I have nothing in my role PM to actually worry about slipping. Whatever you didn't like

is

nothing because there's nothing it could be.

[Kublai Khan]

That makes 11 scum by my count. Why did you forget one? Or is there a reason you don't considerthe inner circle scum.

Wow, Nachomamma8 starts a wagon on me, and Baby Spice rushes to get on the wagon early with the flimsiest of nitpicky reasons.

The answer to you question is that I just plain forgot. Since the roles aren't listed in the first post, I mentally remembered about the 4 person scum groups +2 SKs. But you're right. A random townie is also a secret scum.

Speaking of which...

Hrezs: Claim.

What happens if the claim is accurate, yet they are a Inner Circle member?

[Kublai Khan]

Hrezs: Claim.

What happens if the claim is accurate, yet they are a Inner Circle member?

Then we've locked the turncoat scum into a claim early at the very least, yeah?

A townie with a Inner Circle WC wouldn't be fakeclaiming though...

I'm just bringing it up because I'm hoping someone cleverer then me has put some thought into it.

[Kublai Khan]

I agree about DrippingGoofball. She's keeping her cards very close to her chest. Strong anti-town tell for her.

vote: DrippingGoofball

[Kublai Khan]

When has suicide ever helped the other people of the same alignment? Seriously.

My team is large, and I am vanilla. My death saves a power role from claiming and possibly dying.

Anyway, I get NK'd early and since I don't have a night action, it makes no difference if I'm lynched early, or NK'd early.

I don't like this. In a game where strikes are unrevokable, claiming early and strongly (DrippingGoofball put herself at L-12) is the only way for scum to put the brakes on their own lynch.

And DrippingGoofball knows full well that a vanilla town's sacred duty is to draw that NK so that the town power roles aren't harmed, not to passively push a self-lynch.

/strike: DrippingGoofball

[Kublai Khan]

I'm thinking that DGB is

town

scum

, and

being very clever

is trying very hard to get downgraded to a roleblock.

Fixed that to reflect my view. I like how she's simultaneously self-lynching yet calling her entire wagon scummy. Trying to bully people off the lynch.

Plus she edited out of her reply to me a charge she couldn't answer.

[Kublai Khan]

@ThAdmiral - What didn't you do that ABR asked?

[Kublai Khan]

I don't have the same vibe about Hrezs and Toogeloo isn't in my town column.

Waiting on ThAdmiral's response..

[Kublai Khan]

Ambiguous on Exe.

@BabySpice - Your analysis reads like Mastin VCA bullshit. Why end at Friend?

I outlined my specific reasons for voting for DrippingGoofball and I never backed away from it. And if I tried to discredit DrippingGoofball's comments in any way it's because they were stupid and lies of omission. Read my reason for voting and her response. Notice the omission? She

deliberately

played like bad flailing spamming scum. Not clever (intentionally or otherwise).

[Kublai Khan]

So did anyone else think it weird that there was only one kill last night? Two possibilities come to mind:

1. One faction decided to no-kill to avoid a lynch-and-RB day for town.
2. One faction hit the BP-vest Inner Circle member.

I think possibility 1 is more likely, but just in case it was the latter, I propose to that scum team that if one of your members is about to be lynched, that member should reveal that Inner Circle member. It is in both scum and town's best interest to get rid of the Inner Circle.

Vote: KageLord

Next time, don't look so obvious when you're trolling for power roles.

[Kublai Khan]

Vote: KK

It's weird how he and Bunnylover decided to completely drop each other after yesterday.

Really? What's weird about that?

You haven't commented yet on KageLord. What do you make of his play in this game?

[Kublai Khan]

Kublai Khan:

His posts post-bandwagon look OK in ISO, but I have problems with his early game. What I hate the most about his play is his push on Wraith for being against breaking the game. ReaperCharlie is not an idiot and neither are his reviewers. You want to know why it's better to play in the spirit of the game? Because we probably have to. To give a different setup for simplicity's sake, it's kind of hard to break a 9:3 mountainous, isn't it?

I don't see what's wrong with my push against Wraith. You can make the tired "playing games is fun!" argument, and many people have. But Wraith's "I'd prefer not to break the game, guys" just sounds so... whiny. To list a preference in Mafia is to say "I'd rather do this, but whatever you want guys". It's like he's a weather-vane, ready to point in whatever direction the majority of town wants.

So, why is my dislike of Wraith worse than anyone else?

His attack on Bunnylover is barely any better. That he attacks Bunnylover for thinking all votes are lynch votes and stating BL has never heard of pressure votes is weak. You vote someone outside of RVS, you had better be willing for that person to die.

WTF is with the rash of people who are quick to say shit like "I don't like his posts" but aren't actually following it up with why or try to ask me any questions for clarification? Nachomamma8, Albert B. Rampage, Kise, and now you StrangerCoug.. There's even a couple of votes on me from people testing the water to see if a wagon is possible.

[Kublai Khan]

I dislike the Wraith wagon in general. There are people I don't address; however, I wanted to focus on the people on the DrippingGoofball wagon since I think I'll be able to get more information about that than about the ABR/Toog pairing.

Actually, about that.. In your Albert B. Rampage/Toogeloo pairing conclusion, which of the two do you think is more likely to be scum?

I also disagree about what is meant by "preference" as I don't think the "whatever you want" part applies per se. For example, before the DGB pile-up, I said I wanted one of the people I suspect are buddies dead; however, I also said lynching Hrezs is fine. Did I have a preference? Obviously. Was I fine with drawing a random name out of a hat and then lynching that person? No, and nobody in this game ever was.

Eh.. You know better than that, StrangerCoug. I thought his preference in context was scummy, you're arguing that preference as a hard rule isn't a good scum-tell.

WTF is with the rash of people who are quick to say shit like "I don't like his posts" but aren't actually following it up with why or try to ask me any questions for clarification? Nachomamma8, Albert B. Rampage, Kise, and now you StrangerCoug.. There's even a couple of votes on me from people testing the water to see if a wagon is possible.

I stated why.

Sorry, the quoted part showed that you were making declarative statements about my motivations without bothering to address me first. It's like standing in a room and listening to people talk about you as if you aren't there.

[Kublai Khan]

I also disagree about what is meant by "preference" as I don't think the "whatever you want" part applies per se. For example, before the DGB pile-up, I said I wanted one of the people I suspect are buddies dead; however, I also said lynching Hrezs is fine. Did I have a preference? Obviously. Was I fine with drawing a random name out of a hat and then lynching that person? No, and nobody in this game ever was.

Eh.. You know better than that, StrangerCoug. I thought his preference in context was scummy, you're arguing that preference as a hard rule isn't a good scum-tell.

Not true. I was arguing with the semantics of your statement, not that having a preference for something is a tell.

Well if you're arguing semantics, then you're also wrong. Your described actions were a compromise. You were willing to lynch ABR/Toog, but compromised and settled for someone else who you didn't have any strong town feeling for. Your action resulted in a specific action towards a specific goal (Vote -> Strike -> Lynch)

What Wraith did was state a preference, without putting any strength or weigh behind it. Not the same.

That all said, I feel dumb arguing against Wraith because A) he's not in the game anymore and B) he's role slot isn't at the top of my scum list right now.

Can we focus on KageLord instead?

[Kublai Khan]

Really? What's weird about that?

The fact that you felt so strongly about Bunnyloverscum yesterday, and now won't even give him a thought.

I'm not sure whose mind you're reading, but... Just because I haven't verbalized a thought, doesn't mean I'm not thinking a thought.

As far as I'm concerned, our conversation came to an acceptable end. He has a different philosophy on mafia than I do. I reserve the right to move the fuck on from a subject if I see something scummier taking place. (i.e. DrippingGoofball yesterday and KageLord today).

There's even a couple of votes on me from people testing the water to see if a wagon is possible.

Do you have something to back this up, or...?

Link (4th one).

[Kublai Khan]

Alright, so have you changed your mind about Bunnylover's alignment?

Fuck, you're just not going to let me get away with saying "He's not my prime suspect right now" are you?

He's neutral (leaning scum). Lower certainty = lower priority.

Your evidence isn't what I was looking for. Why am I testing waters as opposed to voting someone I think is scum?

I'll answer this later. Possibly tomorrow, depending.

---

-He (KageLord)'s clearly not doing that. What happened to your other thoughts/suspects?

He clearly is. Saying "Durr, why only 1 kill?" and speculating on why, but not including the existence of doctors and jailkeepers is a scummy scummy way to goading those power roles to speak up about their roles. If you think that KageLord isn't powerrole-trolling, then you are saying that you think KageLord is so stupid that he forgot about the existence of pro-town power roles.

I acknowledge that I was bullying bunnylover, but I strongly deny that I'm "behaving differently". Neither you nor Kise (nor anyone else who has said it) has enough of a meta on me to make that call.

[Kublai Khan]

Your evidence isn't what I was looking for. Why am I testing waters as opposed to voting someone I think is scum?

I'll answer this later. Possibly tomorrow, depending.

On whether you can make up an answer? Or do have a genuine reason.

Genuine reason. I wanted to see if the two people voting me would deny the charge. Nachomamma8 denied it, but Baby Spice didn't acknowledge it at all despite it becoming a topic of conversation. ... And now she's voted me, all the while not acknowledging anything.

---

-He (KageLord)'s clearly not doing that. What happened to your other thoughts/suspects?

He clearly is. Saying "Durr, why only 1 kill?" and speculating on why, but not including the existence of doctors and jailkeepers is a scummy scummy way to goading those power roles to speak up about their roles. If you think that KageLord isn't powerrole-trolling, then you are saying that you think KageLord is so stupid that he forgot about the existence of pro-town power roles.

Er... read my post after the whole speculation thing (I think it was soon after MoI's response to it). I admitted that I was being incredibly stupid. And what kind of idiot PRs would say "Nah, you're wrong. I'm a doc/jk and I saved ____."? That would have to be one of the stupidest scum plans ever. >.>

Appeal to absurdity? I could maaaaaybe buy you forgetting about the existence of one or the other. But to forget both?

And I'm not suggesting that a PR would bluntly forget everything they know about mafia to out themselves, but generally it's likely that the first person to correct you on your shitty game analysis is probably that power role that they are reminding you about.

ThAdmiral and Albert B. Rampage may be scum-buddies. (Post 664 reads like a signalling post to start competing strikewagons)

camn's hypo-claiming plan is probably a good one. Although, it would have to be a hypo-claim of every potential pro-town action.

Then to you, what does that say about us using meta against you - as in, are we scum for our attempts, or ignorant in general and thus null indication of alignment? I take notice of recent playstyles. Let's say on one hand [REDACTED], I can make a reasonable guess as to why you make certain actions, say certain comments, ask certain questions, etc. On the other hand (and my other hand happens to be named Metropolis: Revisited), you strangely have non-identical mannerisms that I feel could be due to a secret objective that does not include eliminating all threats to citizens. From a speculation standpoint, I try my best to determine which alignment and/or role will best explain your need to behave this way.

Fucking hell, Kise. Really? A "you're playing differently in another on-going game in which I believe you're town" argument?

...

How the hell can I even begin to respond to that?

UGHH I Hate going off on my own like I "own the place" but nothing is getting done!

/strike Kublai Khan

I'm sorry buddy I think you are either a serial killer or inner circle scum.

I know at least BS and Nachommama, possibly Kise, will be behind this...everyone else I'm sorry. It must be done. It must be done. Criticize me after the game but god damn it I have to strike Kublai Khan.

OMGUSing bunnylover then tunnelling him for the rest of the day...jumping on Kagelord for "PR fishing"...what kind of unsuccessful rolefishing is that anyway, you know better than that KK...

He is far too concerned with himself. He is too survival-oriented. He must be scum.

It is impossible for him to jump from all his reasons (OMGUSy as they may be) to attack bunnylover, to a cakewalk rolefishing case on Kagelord. I don't buy it one bit. I spent the last two hours reading this game so please, if you're going to strike me, do so with a better reason than "Albert leading the town durr".

Really? That's the best case you can come up with for striking me? Less than 2 hours after saying you want to get rid of a lurker? And

apologizing

while doing it?

Plus you're just stealing bits and pieces of other people's cases to do it? At least your DrippingGoofball case was original.

Oh, hey. Look who jumped on the bandwagon without a moment's thought. It's scum-Baby Spice!

Good lord. What a shitty play, ABR.

I'm

/striking: KageLord

obviously.

[Kublai Khan]

Don't buy into it, there are people with vested interests who are striking Kagelord to save inner circle scum KK.

Why the "inner circle" focus? One of your scum buddies defending me?

@camn - WTF is your reason for striking me? What about my play did you find so scummy that you had to burn your strike so quickly?

Hey Plum posted! Hi Plum! Are you in this game, too?

[Kublai Khan]

Don't buy into it, there are people with vested interests who are striking Kagelord to save inner circle scum KK.

Why the "inner circle" focus? One of your scum buddies defending me?

Come now, a hell of a lot more people are defending you than that.

Yeah, but apparently one specific person's defense of me is bothering you.

@curiouskarmadog: Congrats!

[Kublai Khan]

Here's the breakdown so far...

ThAdmiral - Struck KageLord
Kublai Khan - Struck KageLord
curiouskarmadog - Struck KageLord
Kise - No Strike Yet - Leaning KageLord
Friend - No Strike Yet - Leaning KageLord
Plum - No Strike Yet - Leaning KageLord
AlmasterGM - No Strike Yet - No preference stated post-Albert B. Rampage strike, but previously voted KageLord

Hrezs - No Strike Yet - No Preference between ThAdmiral & KageLord

Toogeloo - Struck ThAdmiral
Kast - No Strike Yet - Leaning ThAdmiral
MagnaofIllusion - No Strike Yet - Leaning ThAdmiral
Exe - No Strike Yet - Leaning ThAdmiral
Magua - No Strike Yet - Leaning ThAdmiral
StrangerCoug - No Strike Yet - Leaning ThAdmiral

Albert B. Rampage - Struck Kublai Khan
Baby Spice - Struck Kublai Khan
camn - Struck Kublai Khan
KageLord - No Strike Yet - Leaning Kublai Khan
Nachomamma8 - No Strike Yet - Hasn't posted since Albert B. Rampage struck, but is
currently voting Kublai Khan
Bunnylover - No Strike Yet - Leaning Kublai Khan

Lady Lambdadelta - No Strike Yet - No mention of top 3 - Pushing a Friend case

Notes from this list..

I have no idea why Lady Lambdadelta is wasting time with Friend right now isn't of making a decision on the top 3. AlmasterGM similarly is bogged down.

Still waiting for camn's justification of her strike.

The towniest block is the one wanting to kill ThAdmiral (with the exception of Toogeloo)

[Kublai Khan]

@KK/ABR-
Thanks for putting in that work.

Pff.. He just copy-pasta'd me.

Blood, kublai. That is my only desire.
To bathe in the blood of my enemies.

C'mon, camn. I know you're fracking terrible at this game and all, but you know what I'm asking. Do you have a case/reason for striking/wanting my blood/declaring me an enemy/etc?

CONFSCUM:
ThAD
Bunnylover
KK
Toogeloo
Hresz

My first post of tomorrow will be striking one of these five.

WTF? Why would you strike in your first post tomorrow? How does it make it any less scummy to announce such a stupid plan in advance?

And why am I on your scum-list? You questioned my motivations, I answered your questions, and now you're just holding on to a confirmation bias grudge.

[Kublai Khan]

I like AGar as curiouskarmadog's scummate.

vote: AGar

[Kublai Khan]

AGar is dead, scumbag.

Huh.. Well that explains that.

Let me ISO read AlmasterGM then.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay.. HRezs is scum. AlmasterGM's bussed partner.

Vote: HRez

[Kublai Khan]

Sorry, catching up..

And what, pray tell, made you think this? I'm curious.

Nothing. It was a gambit to see if anyone who previously didn't suspect me suddenly would. The cross-striking over-shadowed it all, but MagnaofIllusion is suddenly calling me scum despite zero comment on me yesterday and choosing ThAdmiral over me. (Plum and Albert B. Rampage were consistent)

CKD is an easy read as scum. I’m hardly surprised he flipped Mafia at all.

Did MagnaofIllusion state any previous suspecion of curiouskarmadog? Answer: barely. His only comments to/about curiouskarmadog had to do with how easy a scumread curiouskarmadog was in Cyclic.

So why did he make the comment? If he's town, then the only reason was to meta-stick his tongue out as curiouskarmadog. If MagnaofIllusion is scum, then he's making sure that his distance from curiouskarmadog is subtly noticed.

MoI confirmed scum and IC.
LLD confirmed scum.
Toog Confirmed scum and IC.

Elementary.

So... What happened to Friend/Xalxe during your hastily scrambled together "logic"?

Baby Spice strikes and settles in for the cross-fight between Toogeloo and Albert B. Rampage when she has plenty of chance to open a new route (plenty of non-strikers to push a new wagon). Then she opens up new scum-accusations that heavily feature OMGUS reasoning.

@Toogeloo - Did you have any reason to strike Albert B. Rampage beyond "let's end the WIFOM"?

@StrangerCoug: I would like you to take a minute to spell out the benefit of a Day 2 no-lynch you were talking to lady Lambdadelta about. It's probably very simple and feel free to berate me as an idiot that needs a grown-up's hand to cross the street, but I really haven't been following the logic of any of your reads. Either your scum trying to push bad logic, or I'm just not on the same page, so I'd like a point of common ground.

MoI- your last couple posts were beneath you. You can do a LOT better. But the tone of your play makes me a little reluctant to get involved.

Do you realize that you've struck MagnaofIllusion and still haven't presented a case yet, right? Happy hour is over. Quit fucking stalling, this should have been posted already.

Okay, how about everyone that hasn't struck yet says which lynch(es) they would be down for today before we do anything else?

ABR: Yes
MoI: No
Toog: Yes
BS: No

I really hate it when the guy I strongly suspect of being scum is suddenly the voice of reason. Albert B. Rampage and MagnaofIllusion are getting hesitant "No"s right now.

Why the "no" on Baby Spice? Her play/logic is absolutely horrible..

[Kublai Khan]

Okay, but I guess I'm failing to see how losing the majority is a major negative result since we'd still have the plurality of the votes...

[Kublai Khan]

Khan- you will find I respond poorly to profanity.

Oh god.. I'm so sorry. Please don't use it as an excuse to stall and not fulfill your promise to the town. I would

fucking

hate that.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay, but I guess I'm failing to see how losing the majority is a major negative result since we'd still have the plurality of the votes...

It may not be, but only having the plurality seems a bit suboptimal to me.

So in your attack on Lady Lambadelta, you're arguing that it was scummy of her not to pursue a no lynch because we could have been dropped to a plurality, which would be sub-optimal at worst..

Am I grasping the argument correctly? (again, yes I know I'm an idiot for needing such a high level of clarifty)

Someone asked about Friend/Xalxe

I always try to give the replacements a chance to scum it up for themselves. Or shine.

My main scummy on Friend was the reasonless DGB strike, and the reasonless Wraith vote. (With AGM's following vote)
The lurkiness didn't help of course. But with Friend flaking, his reasonless/scummy strike/vote could just be bad play or lurkiness.

Besides with actual IC & scum found, Xalxe wont be today's lynch regardless of what happens, so he can wait.

I asked about your opinion of Friend/Xalxe.

I asked because your main case against MagnaofIllusion is based on the tell you learned from Amished about people expressing similar ideas really quickly. Both MagnaofIllusion and Friend posted a similar post to an AlmasterGM post, so there's probably scum there. (paraphrasing this post of yours.)

You then wander off and to call MagnaofIllusion, Albert B. Rampage, & Toogeloo all Inner Circle scum buddies based on reactions to Toogeloo's early strike of MagnaofIllusion.

So, 2 questions..
Why is Friend/Xalxe no longer a top suspect to be AlmasterGM's scum-buddy?
and Why are you specifically Inner Circle hunting?

1. I clearly was wrong in my ThAd read. My guess is that one of the three of you (based purely on numbers of scum in the game and other factors) is very likely scum. I don’t see Kage as scum other than the Daykiller (and I noticed you try to nicely undermine that logic, good work). Thus you.
2. So you aren’t going to address that you suspicion today of AGar isn’t very suspect considering he was dead for 48 game hours when you posted that vote?
3. Am I not allowed to develop new suspicions as the game develops and people make scummy plays? I can dig up quotes from you suggesting that’s Town play if you want to dispute it.

1. ... What? You're scum-hunting on probabilities? And what logic did I undermine? I have no idea what you're talking about.
2. It was a gambit, Magna. A tarp, in your parlance. I posted the worst, laziest scum-hunting I could think of to see who would jump at the opportunity to lead a new charge against me, yet had no/little suspicion of me yesterday. And there you are. Making a case based on probabilities, then backing up it by nit-pick attacking.
3. Really? Referrencing an on-going game as a defence? How the fuck could I respond to that? Shame on you.

I'm not saying that you can't develop new reads as the game develops. But if you're town and you're honestly trying to make a case on me based on the idea that the unflipped wagon must be scum then you are

incredibly hypocritical

for trying to make a case against me for lazy scum-hunting.

@Mod - Please stop distracting the players of your game.

Preview Edit: Not a fan of how we got locked into a Toogeloo lynch. Too much day-rushing from Kast. Though I agree that Toogeloo is an idiot and if he's town then I have to seriously consider blacklisting him for playing against wincon.

[Kublai Khan]

y'know.. If all the remaining non-strikers banded together. We could lynch Baby Spice instead.

I'm willing to do this.

Preview edit: Damnit, ABR. Stealing my thunder..

[Kublai Khan]

Baby Spice - Why haven't you answered any of my questions?

[Kublai Khan]

@KK-
Explain your day-rushing comment. It sounds like you weren't paying attention to the strikes/game state prior to my strike.

As of BL's strike, Toog and BS became the only candidates possible to lynch, with BS requiring all but 1 player agreeing while Toog required all but 3.

Sorry, Kast. You're right. Both your vote and Bunnylover's vote came up on my preview edit, so I grouped you both together without thinking and posted my wall.

You didn't mention Baby Spice at all. What's your read on her?

[Kublai Khan]

Well.. uh.. Okay. I can see StrangerCoug as #4 as well. He's been pushing very hard for a Toogeloo lynch instead of the Baby Spice lynch. So was KageLord, BTW.

/strike: Baby Spice

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah, you do that Coug.

Let us know if there's anything that stands out.

[Kublai Khan]

Hey, Lady Lambdadelta - Since this game has been ruined for you by the Inner Circle, help us out a bit. Who do you see as being the town IC?

[Kublai Khan]

Also, you do realize that LLD-IC implicates you as well, according to Exe's info, right?

Heh.. I guess maybe I can finally eliminate you from suspicion then.

[Kublai Khan]

/strike: Exe

[Kublai Khan]

Also...

Most town: Magua and KK.

*hi fives Magua*

[Kublai Khan]

I don't know RC edited it on 13th but I swear it earlier said they win when ALL members alive.

Kast is wrong.
Note the Wiki-change (red highlight).
Also...

The Inner Circle wins when they control the majority of the players left.

With only 1 kill last night, that means that one of the scum groups got stymied and it's likely that the Inner Circle don't have a kill of their own (barring unknown mechanics, of course).

So after Exe is dead. We need to eliminate either the last Night Rider or the DSK, then the other. Once the kills are eliminated and if town doesn't auto-win, then we worry about Inner Circle. There's no sense on focusing on them too early.

Though, it's actually been won by the IC & scum teams FOR the town, so I correct myself regarding that part.

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

[Kublai Khan]

I am the security supervisor. I block someone every night.

I blocked SC the night the night riders killed bunnylover.

I blocked Mute last night.

Discuss.

That's what I guessed.

However, the fact that Mute was blocked isn't conclusive. There were two doc-protects last night as well.

[Kublai Khan]

Sorry. Been reading..

@Albert B. Rampage - Would you mind giving a full reveal (each night's targets, that sort of thing)? Also, is there anything (flavor-wise) that justifies the "supervisor" title?

I've been re-reading Friend. Despite his short, non-commital posts, he was fairly accurate in identifying Exe (SC), bunnylover (SC), & Baby Spice (NR) as scum.
Xalxe had 2 non-posts.
Mute needs to give a full "I read the entire game and here are my suspects for IC/NR/DSK" type post. Because he hasn't really contributed anything to the game either.

I'm leaning towards striking Mute instead of Albert B. Rampage (pending Albert B. Rampage's answer). But neither are at the top of my scum-list, so.. ugh.

[Kublai Khan]

Oh god.. Please don't tell me it's going to be that easy..

[Kublai Khan]

/strike: Mute

[Kublai Khan]

I agree with the camn massclaim idea. Although I think Kise is right in that we only really have three viable suspects at this point.

I also agree with Kise in that I have no idea what Kast was talking about.

@Mute-
Damn your spot is such a liability & you just threw away our only chance.

@ICs-
Thanks. You guys really fucked me & lol town's gonna be confused by bastard modding (or maybe not).

Seriously, what does the above mean?

[Kublai Khan]

Um.. it means Kast is the Town Inner Circle member.. and NOT the daykiller. Just a loser!

Hmm.. I guess the "Inner Circle have been defeated" confused me.

But it makes sense. Kast-IC doesn't have a night-kill and can't prevent town from lynching him, so he's just.. vestigial.

@Kast - What's your current win condition?

[Kublai Khan]

I'm a paramedic. Can't protect same person 2 nights in a row. If two or more attempt to kill my target then the protect will fail. Can't self-protect.

Night 1 - Magua
Night 2 - HRezs
Night 3 - Magua
Night 4 - Albert B. Rampage
Night 5 - Magua
Night 6 - StrangerCoug

Kast next.

[Kublai Khan]

Interesting. It appears we have different mechanics... I won't claim targets yet but I am Paramedic as well.

Yeah, I was figuring as much after HRezs' claim. That why I paraphrased all the details of my role PM.

camn's self-strike was pretty pro-town. It would go against Win Con for a DSK to self-strike at that point. All signs are pointing to StrangerCoug as DSK.

Feels too easy, though...

[Kublai Khan]

Hrm.

[Kublai Khan]

Well, I guess shame on us for playing "follow-the-cop" in a game with framers and for assuming that serial killers would investigate as anti-town.

Congrats, Magua. You played a great game and I'm more than annoyed that I saved your ass on the night that Exe (I think?) targetted you.

@RC - Good game and I liked the setup. The one problem I had (if you'll indulge a little constructive criticism), was the inclusion of both the strike and inner circle mechanics at the same time. I think the inclusion of both is what caused players to get frustrated and out their partners. If we had regular voting, then the mafia wouldn't feel like all was lost because you can always argue against an L-1 situation. Conversely, if there was no Inner Circle, then mafia members definitely wouldn't out their scum partners in frustration as they were getting struck.

Plus I think I hate the whole striking mechanic now that this game is over. It's hard to get everyone to agree on a plan of action after one or two goes off half-cocked and limits everyone else's choices. I read the "feeling" that you were trying to create and in storytelling-terms, it works. But in actual gameplay practice, it just created frustration. I think the difference is that as players, we're not literally fearing for our lives.

The wiki-changing was unfortunate and did change the course of the game. Nothing you can really so there except admit fault and avoid any similar mistakes in the future.

In the end, though, I had fun. Great flavor, a lot of good interesting players to play with, and an interesting setup. Kudos.

(And I'll second Magua for Best SK in the scummies... He had everyone fooled, even without the cop result)

[Kublai Khan]

PS, ABR. . . I dont think it was bad odds for the town.
If we would have all massclaimed, taken a breath and did some scumhunting, the town had a plenty fair chance!
I think we lost on recklessness and poor fundamental play in endgame, myself included. That is all.
No odds. We were at 6 town 1 DSK, right? We were just all too rash.

A lesson for us all.. fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals.

Realistically, if KL didn't call Magua town, we would have killed him.

Yeah, but I think that's what camn is saying. If we'd taken a moment to question our "knowns", then we might have remembered that Magua (& me, really) weren't as clear as we were before we found the last NR.

She's right, too.

[Kublai Khan]

Exe <kills> Magua | MAGUA WAS SAVED BY KUBLAI KHAN (SO HIS 1-SHOT BP/LP ISN'T WASTED)

Okay.. I don't feel so bad. I only protected his bulletproof vest.

[Kublai Khan]

1. One about the setup, things you liked and didn't like, ways you think it could be improved, etc.

First, let me say that I really liked the setup. I liked that I had a chance to look at it before playing and I liked the idea of the moles and wanted to see how it would play out. So the following is nothing but constructive criticism..

1) Inner Circle - The win condition of the Inner Circle really needed to be set in cement. I know it was a just an unfortunate transcription error on your part but it was a big deal and needed to be communicated to the players as soon as possible. In mafia, mod-confirmed pieces of information are the basis of every type of strategy. Plus all the "if-then" stuff that happened after a member died was a little much. I remember Kast saying that HRezs was the town-IC and then made his "you really screwed us" post, and the number of ICs just didn't add up. The idea of recruitment was far from my mind as was the "free your mind" concept. There's no way I could have trusted anything Kast said in endgame because even laid out it sounds too far-fetched / not intuitive.
2) No Flips - I don't understand why the Inner Circle team wouldn't flip as Inner Circle.. I get that there's a heady concept to it, but if the Skull Crushers had known that ckd-IC was dead, they would have been in a much better position to band together and win the game. And the game would have been better overall. Instead, they were frustrated and paranoid and eventually self-destructed. Scum teams should be rewarded in the event of their mole dying, instead the no-flip hindered them.
3) Striking - I already mentioned this... Nothing is more frustrating then to have 1-3 people narrow the scope of the lynch targets. It stops the town from being able to scum-hunt through the use of pressure.

2. One about the players, who you think did well/poorly, happenings that you really enjoyed, etc.

The flavor was excellent, and thanks, of course, for designing an interesting setup and modding it.

I don't think anyone played badly, really. Some people made decision based on information that turned out to be false (IC lose at first member loss), so their "scorched Earth" policy wasn't effective in the way they thought it would be. I was a little disappointed that DrippingGoofball self-struck. I was really looking forward to finally playing a game with her.

[Kublai Khan]

Welll... you're somewhat right about the Inner Circle wincon needing to be made more clear, but to be fair, it

did

say in plain text on the wiki:

"The Inner Circle wins when they control the majority of the players left."

So... I'm not sure why there was any confusion as to when they would have won, if they'd have made it that far.

Ah, my bad. I meant confusion about their Lose-Condition.

And even though one could successfully argue that the non-omission of that one phrase "The IC must all be alive in order... etc" can be cited as the main reason that Baby Spice and Exe outed themselves and their scumbuddies, resulting in their lynch/death by DSK/etc... consider the following:

1. Their win condition did not include killing the mole in their faction, or even exposing him or her.
2. They

knew

that doing so would give up 50% (66.7% in Baby Spice's case) of their scum team.
3. Therefore, they played actively

against

their wincon, in order to try to screw over someone else. Regardless of the consequences.

I think it's more arguable then you're willing to accept.

1. True, the mole did not have to be killed or neutralized, but the existence of the mole impede's the scum's ability to successfully plot and strategize (not literally, but mentally).
2. Sure.
3. Not really. Their wincon did not dictate that all scum needed to be alive for their team to win. when only 1 scum member exists, then they can be as hard to kill as a serial killer. It's a ballsy play, but it's not against wincon. And often the earlier that they are solo, then less scum-interaction could ensnare them.

Not to mention the fact that they were both wrong anyway. They both revealed an actual scumbuddy, not a member of the Inner Circle. Ouch.

Yes, the scum teams would have been in a better position had they known. But this game was not about mod-outguessing and setup-breaking, it was about the dichotomy of trusting those who you can't trust, and not trusting those who you would normally be able to trust. Yes, it's insane. Yes, it's frustrating. But also yes, it's groundbreaking.

Eh.. I'll give you groundbreaking. But if it's not fun, then what good is it?

And it's especially about "THE TURNING POINT", which is something I'd like to write a MD thread about. "The Turning Point" is the point at which you stop actively working WITH the rival scum team (to cull the town of its excess of power), and working AGAINST them in order to accomplish your own ends, eliminate them, survive, and win.

Both scum teams misjudged The Turning Point this game, acting far too early. They also both misjudged the proper manner in which to MAKE the Turn against the Inner Circle. The proper way would have been to try to kill an OPPOSING team's member of the Inner Circle, and watch the way their scumbuddies interacted with OTHER people during the day (and how they spoke about them at Night time during the quicktopic). This would have weakened the Inner Circle and severely limited their sphere of influence.

Well, I didn't play the game from the scum point of view, but generally it's usually hard enough to identify the other scum team member's. Much less pin-point the member of the Inner Circle.
If you want to run an experiment, recruit someone to read the game. Tell them all the members of 1 scumteam. Then have him read Day 1 and ask him to identify the IC member of the second scumteam. Then Day 2, then day 3, etc.. See if they can uncover them. I'm willing to bet that they aren't going to have a good success rate.

I was thinking about it today while out running errands.. What about instead of choosing 1 member of each faction to be Inner Circle, you just announce that 3 non-SK players are the Inner Circle? You still get the distrust within the scumgroups, but with the extra WIFOM that maybe they have nothing to worry about. (Secretly, you could still choose 1 of each group, but they don't need to know).

That, again, is just part of the nature of the beast. Due to the flavor, according to the absence of any kind of "outed" Law and Order, people will act with a mob mentality, even those who are supposed to be

upholding

Law and Order. I was also very surprised that nobody ever wanted to kill off Albert B. Rampage, even though he was the loose cannon on many of those occasions. I tried to hint at this in the closing/ending flavor, when the Serial Killer, Magua, is talking to ABR before he kills him. He thanks him for being "that guy" who is always going against the best plan for the town, which in this case was "voting" before actually striking someone. And believe you me, if you've ever been in an enclosed space with a bunch of people who feel trapped, once somebody starts throwing blows, things start blowing up. Everyone polarizes almost right away, and opinions don't change around much once left jabs and right hooks are being thrown and received.

Oh, I know. Nature of the beast, and all. But ABR was a pretty solid town read while he was doing his shenanigans, specifically because he was ballsy instead of cautious. With so many scum around, we really didn't have the luxury of a policy lynch. Plus suggesting a policy lynch is often a scum-tell to many people (especially a non-VI policy lynch), so it just invites trouble. Striking is good in theory, but obnoxious in practice, y'know?

[Kublai Khan]

Also.. Scum QTs?

[Kublai Khan]

And even though one could successfully argue that the non-omission of that one phrase "The IC must all be alive in order... etc" can be cited as the main reason that Baby Spice and Exe outed themselves and their scumbuddies, resulting in their lynch/death by DSK/etc... consider the following:

1. Their win condition did not include killing the mole in their faction, or even exposing him or her.
2. They

knew

that doing so would give up 50% (66.7% in Baby Spice's case) of their scum team.
3. Therefore, they played actively

against

their wincon, in order to try to screw over someone else. Regardless of the consequences.

I think it's more arguable then you're willing to accept.

1. True, the mole did not have to be killed or neutralized, but the existence of the mole impede's the scum's ability to successfully plot and strategize (not literally, but mentally).
2. Sure.
3. Not really. Their wincon did not dictate that all scum needed to be alive for their team to win. when only 1 scum member exists, then they can be as hard to kill as a serial killer. It's a ballsy play, but it's not against wincon. And often the earlier that they are solo, then less scum-interaction could ensnare them.

1. Yes. But if it IS mental and not literal, and mafia is a game of mentality, then what's the problem? I mean... seriously. I almost feel like posting a trollface here (...problem?), but I don't think it'd help my case.
2. (was 3). It was ballsy, yes. But it was also stupid. It literally takes

days

longer to achieve majority, when you take out that many of your scum team. With NKs and DKs floating around in as liberal a fashion as they did, it was absolutely the wrong move, and was ARGUABLY the WORST possible way of dealing with the IC short of announcing your entire faction in-thread and saying "one of us is IC-scum, lynch away". The scum-interaction point is nearly immaterial compared to the numbers argument, in terms of endgaming power.

I'm sorry, I guess I'm not very clear..

Let me setup a scenario.. What if an IC suddenly had a few quick strikes, and they said "Stop, I'm a cop. Here are some guilties on scums" or worse, "woah, hold on. I'm an IC. I can spoon-feed you the names of scum if you let me live"?

{Before you say that the second quote is implausible as it would be bad play, I need to remind you that your players are human and as such are prone to playing horribly}

Those are the scenarios that give scum nightmares when they think about moles. They have to eliminate worst case scenarios and the mole announcing the scum team to the town is a mega-nightmare. Reducing the scum team to one (most trusted) member is a good way to eliminate the mole and keep a chance at success. That's why I don't think that Exe and Baby Spice's strategy was *that* horrible. (Though Exe did leap to a wrong conclusion after Magua survived.)

Yes, the scum teams would have been in a better position had they known. But this game was not about mod-outguessing and setup-breaking, it was about the dichotomy of trusting those who you can't trust, and not trusting those who you would normally be able to trust. Yes, it's insane. Yes, it's frustrating. But also yes, it's groundbreaking.

Eh.. I'll give you groundbreaking. But if it's not fun, then what good is it?

How do you think it could have been more fun for the scum teams? Or do you think it was just a failed experiment. This is an honest question.

Well, flips would be a must. Otherwise the scum teams were doomed to failure as soon as they became a 2-person team.

If CKD had flipped IC, then would Exe have outed LLD? Hells, no. The SC team might have had a strong chance of winning. (or at least felt like they had a fair chance).

I was thinking about it today while out running errands.. What about instead of choosing 1 member of each faction to be Inner Circle, you just announce that 3 non-SK players are the Inner Circle? You still get the distrust within the scumgroups, but with the extra WIFOM that maybe they have nothing to worry about. (Secretly, you could still choose 1 of each group, but they don't need to know).

Hmmm... that'd be a good idea. I like that. We should mod a game together eventually. Go pick a game from the "Which game should I run next?" topic in my sig and I'll let you know if I don't already have somebody lined up. Though, no guarantees that they'll be anything like this one. Which might or might not be a good thing, depending on your point of view.

I think I already voted a while back when you first posted the topic.. As for co-modding, who knows what the future brings?

[Kublai Khan]

I don't think the setup details are the problem... Just thefact that nobody likes to be surprised, right?
Plus, if you say that, that a game may include bastard elements, then it really is a free for all, and nobody can complain after!

Arguing about whether or not your games are bastard is dumb. If all these peolple say they are, they are.
Just warn people next time!

[Kublai Khan]

Also.. Scum QTs?

Did I miss these somewhere?