Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[implosion]

Vote count 1.7:

Xtoxm - 2 (DarthYoshi, ConSpiracy)
Krazy - 0
Umbrage - 1 (Ythan)
Ythan - 0
ConSpiracy - 1 (Krazy)
Regfan - 0
Snake Eyes - 0
Vordark - 0
Quaroath - 1 (Umbrage)
Abelcain - 0
iamausername - 0
DarthYoshi - 4 (iamausername, Vordark, Xtoxm, Snake Eyes)
No lynch - 0
Not voting: Abelcain, Quaroath, Regfan.

With 12 alive, 7 votes are required to lynch.

Prods: none.

Deadline is 8:30 EST on March 23. Slightly over a week from now.

[Umbrage]

And here's why. You jumped on some player, not even the first one to do what you accused him of, when your vote should clearly be elsewhere.

Uh, did you even read my case?

Where did I claim that the vote on you was just to get a wagon started?

We will never get anywhere without bandwagons. The whole idea of a premature bandwagon is a fallacy. Why are you drawing an arbitrary line between what I'm doing and what you're doing? Is it because you want it to be scummy when I do it, and not when you do it?

pressure you after you've made a questionable post, and then push a wagon on you when I do have a scumread on you?

Can we lynch this scum already?

Also, I didn't know why your vote on CS was "serious" as you put it. Yes, you had given some reasons for your vote on CS on an earlier post, but when you say your vote is "serious", the usual implication is that the person you are talking about is really, really scummy.

OK, so my vote on ConSpiracy is about as serious

as you can get for page 1 reads

.

For Pete's sake, you quoted that line.

All this just proves my point: you did not fine my VOTE on CS to be scummy. You saw someone make a SERIOUS vote in RVS and thought: "Hey, that would make an excellent wagon!" Now, you JUST SAID that you did not wagon me to get out of RVS. You ALSO said that you did NOT find me scummy at that time! Which means that there is NO excusable motive for wagoning me. NONE. Either you were watching out for your buddies ConSpiracy and xtoxm, or you were looking for a good wagon. EITHER WAY YOU ARE SCUM. EITHER WAY YOU NEED TO DIE.

Oh, and I'm not sure what you mean by the happy face, but I'm interpreting it as "I can't respond to this so I'm going to laugh and hope nobody notices".

You do raise one good point though. My vote. I had completely forgotten about it.

VOTE: Snake Eyes

[ConSpiracy]

I am not really caring about this argument between Vordark and me any more, actually. The Xtoxm case was my priority with a small stretch to the Vordark case. The sole thing I will answer that will not get into a Yes-No argument is this:

So I'm still not seeing what you are calling "buddying".

Actually, I completely answered that:

In every thing else you are telling us everything some players (me, SE, Abel) have posted very good while others (Umbrage, DY) have only posted bad things. This was in consensus of the thread back then, although for example I hadn't done a thing back then: The RVS-thingie, and some questions towards Umbrage.

It seemed as you were trying to get in favour of me, SE and Abel. You get it now?
Also, I would like to answer on the DY case, but there isn't one if I recall correctly. If there is one, please feel free to point it out. I am not spending again many hours just to answer this.

I really don't like how nobody even cared to say something about Xtoxm. Why can he slide this easily of the radar without doing anything?

@ Umbrage:

Your case sucks as hell. Please stop the tunneling.

@ mod: Although I like you are putting the votecounts in advance to prevent long talks without a votecount between them, it is rather annoying to read that they are made after 9/10 hours. If there are any mistakes in it people forget to point those out simply because they forget to look at the votecount. Could you please occasionally try to make them as soon as you make the post itself? Thanx in advance.

[implosion]

Yeah, I will. That one was because I wanted the top of the page, I wouldn't have made it otherwise

[Umbrage]

@ Umbrage: Your case sucks as hell. Please stop the tunneling.

OH OK I'LL DO THAT BECAUSE YOU'VE TOTALLY CONVINCED ME WITH YOUR BRILLIANT ARGUMENTS AND SHOT DOWN MY TWO PAGE ESSAY WITH YOUR ONE SENTENCE PLEASE LET'S HAVE MORE WISDOM FROM YOU.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR..................................................................................................................

MAYBE YOU DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT I'M ATTACKING SNAKE EYES. HMMMMMM.............. LET'S SEE............. SNAKE EYES DEFENDS CONSPIRACY.............................. CONSPIRACY DEFENDS SNAKE EYES..................................... COULD THERE BE A CONNECTION??????????????????????????????????????????????

[DarthYoshi]

You were not just "being suspicious of everyone", you just made questions that hinted at scumminess but didn't follow up on whether or not you found them scummy or not. It is very scum-motivated to cast suspicion on as wide a range as possible, as that way it's much easier to manipulate on whom to pick for the (mis)lynch. Even better when it's combined with hedging like yours - as far as I can tell the only person you've said is scummy is xtoxm, and that is for lurking and other reasons that came after your vote.

I initially thought ConSpiracy might be scummy as well, and said as much when I voted for him. My read has since changed. If you want other suspects from me, atm I think that probably either you or Umbrage is scum, but not probably not both.

If I think someone is scummy, believe me when I say I'll keep following up on the questions that I ask.

Not voting: Abelcain, Quaroath

Why do you guys not have a vote out? There's no excuse for not having one out this deep into D1.

Regfan, you get a pass because you replaced in, but I'd like to see a vote from you sooner rather than later.

@ConSpiracy: In 1-2 sentences each, what are your reads on Umbrage and Snake Eyes?

@Implosion: It be time for some prods? Game is slowing down quite a bit.

[implosion]

Bah. Forgot to check. Abelcain and Xtoxm have been prodded.

[Xtoxm]

Wow, feels like I posted just yesterday but apparently it's been almost 4 days.

[Umbrage]

I still think Snake Eyes is scum and will continue to think so until someone says something more convincing than 'u suck lol'. I will ISO ConSpiracy next.

[Ythan]

And here's why. You jumped on some player, not even the first one to do what you accused him of, when your vote should clearly be elsewhere.

Uh, did you even read my case?

Yes. You have a case on Snake. And yet you placed a vote on another player for a minor reason in the middle of your push on Snake.

[iamausername]

Umbrage, the problem with your case is that you are interpreting Snake asking QUESTIONS like "why is what ConSpiracy did scummy?" and "Why isn't what Xtoxm did more scummy?" as Snake going "GRRRRRRAAAAAGAHGH UMBRAGE YOU SUCCCCCKK!K!!!!! DIE DIE DIE!!!!!!" just because he also voted you when he asked them. Which he obviously did because it was page fuckin' two, and he did not have anything better to go on.

And then I think you're accusing him of contradicting himself because at one point he said he found you scummy, but at another point he said he didn't? Or something like that? Do you know that reads can change?

I think a laughing emoticon was an entirely appropriate response to "I don't see why scum would not want to move the game past RVS. In fact, the faster we're out of RVS, the faster a lynch will happen, and scum want fast lynches. So if anything, wanting to move the game past RVS is a scumtell."
If you can't see the flaw in that argument you should probably just not play Mafia, to be perfectly frank.

---

P.S.

If you want other suspects from me, atm I think that probably either you or Umbrage is scum, but not probably not both.

This guy is still scum.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, the problem with your case is that you are interpreting Snake asking QUESTIONS like "why is what ConSpiracy did scummy?" and "Why isn't what Xtoxm did more scummy?" as Snake going "GRRRRRRAAAAAGAHGH UMBRAGE YOU SUCCCCCKK!K!!!!! DIE DIE DIE!!!!!!" just because he also voted you when he asked them. Which he obviously did because it was page fuckin' two, and he did not have anything better to go on.

Are you high? Or did you just not read my posts?

And then I think you're accusing him of contradicting himself because at one point he said he found you scummy, but at another point he said he didn't? Or something like that? Do you know that reads can change?

You "think"? Why don't you try READING and figure my case out for yourself. It's all there in simple English.

I think a laughing emoticon was an entirely appropriate response to "I don't see why scum would not want to move the game past RVS. In fact, the faster we're out of RVS, the faster a lynch will happen, and scum want fast lynches. So if anything, wanting to move the game past RVS is a scumtell."
If you can't see the flaw in that argument you should probably just not play Mafia, to be perfectly frank.

I do see the flaw. That's the whole point: Snake Eyes made a flawed argument. Thus, he is scum. You come so close to understanding, but clarity still eludes you.

[Regfan]

Re-read and caught up with everything my overall reads on everyone are posted below:

Xtoxm - He is my biggest suspect by far at the moment, none of his posts seem to hold any weight and he's actively lurking without showing any intention to scum-hunt nor defend himself. Leaning mafia.

Krazy - My read on him is becoming less solid with every post he makes, that's probably because I'm seeming to find an excess of town-reads but his posts with the exception of the Ythan argument have been highly useful and his reaction to the mass-claim suggestion I read as a town tell. Leaning town.

Umbrage - Given that he has had some emotional outburts and is quite clearly tunnelling on SnakeEyes, I read him as misguided town, a lot of his actions are things I can't find mafia motivation behind, I'll go into this later when I have more town. Leaning town.

Ythan - Has had a mix of constructive and non constructive posts throughout the game, similar to Snake the amount of his content has slowly diminished though I do have a gut town read on him and I'm attempting to pin-point what caused it. Leaning town.

ConSpiracy - All of his posts contain copious amounts of logic and from re-reading I don't find a single post of his that makes me doubt his allignment. Strong town read.

Snake Eyes - As stated earlier, his content has died down massively, but earlier in the game I've seen multiple actions done by him that I would consider town-tells. I believe I've gone into this earlier as well. Leaning town read.

Vordark - His case against DarthYoshi seems to be an active attempt to scum-hunt even though I don't exactly understand/agree with it I believe he'd be pushing towards a lurker as mafia at this point in the game (That being that there's an incredible amount of lurkers towards the end of the day). Leaning town read.

Quaroath - Hasn't posted a great deal of content similar to Xtoxtm, but when he has posted I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he's saying. Leaning null read.

Abelcain - Seems to have stood back a lot more then the other players in this game, he has posted logical and contructive posts however a lot have to do with defending suspicion away from himself rather than actively scumhunting. Leaning mafia read.

iamausername - Intially was my biggest scum-read however that's lessened massively especially due to his reaction and reasoning when the massclaim was suggested. I wouldn't go as far to say I think he's town right now, but he's certaintly not one of my larger FoS's. Leaning null read.

DarthYoshi - Personally, I've read through the case on DathYoshi several times, and I'm not sure I undersand it exactly, you suspect him I would greatly appreciate if you could summarise the case against him into one post. Right now, I haven't found many town-tells from re-reading his posts nor have I found any scumtells. Leaning null read.

With all that said I'm going to

Vote: Xtoxm

.

Umbrage I have a question for you: If you think SnakeEyes is mafia who do you think his partners are?

[iamausername]

I think a laughing emoticon was an entirely appropriate response to "I don't see why scum would not want to move the game past RVS. In fact, the faster we're out of RVS, the faster a lynch will happen, and scum want fast lynches. So if anything, wanting to move the game past RVS is a scumtell."
If you can't see the flaw in that argument you should probably just not play Mafia, to be perfectly frank.

I do see the flaw. That's the whole point: Snake Eyes made a flawed argument. Thus, he is scum. You come so close to understanding, but clarity still eludes you.

what what what

YOU made that argument. You. It was in your post. I saw it.

[Regfan]

Summary:

Town reads

Krazy
Umbrage
Ythan
ConSpiracy
SnakeEyes
Vordark

Null reads

Iamusername
Quaroath
DarthYoshi

Scum reads

Xtoxm
Abelcain

[Regfan]

Excuse the excess of posts in a short time span, I'm just catching up on a lot at once.

ISO on Xtoxm: N = Nulltell. T1 = Minor Town-tell. T2 = Medium Town-tell. T3 = Strong Town-tell. S1 = Minor Scum-tell. S2 = Medium Scum-tell. S3 = Strong Scum-tell (This is how I will be doing all my ISO's)

1. Answers Yoshis questions. N
2. States he has town-tells on everyone active except Ythan but doesn't attempt to pressure a lurker to gain additonal tells. S1
3. States with his disagreement on the Umbrage wagon, states his FoS's with is again Ythan, promises to read and post about it. T1
4. Changes his FoS to DarthYoshi after saying that Ythan wasn't as complacent as he previously thought (How complacent is a scum-tell I'm unsure). Votes Yoshi 'because he has the most votes' rather then believing he's the most likely to be scum. S2
5. Responds to my questions mentions he has given his 'raw opinion and nothing else' however I fail to see how 3 reads throughout an entire game would constitute as someones raw opinion. Either N or S1, unsure yet.
6. Continuation of the previous post. N
7. States disagreement with mass-claim and his reasoning behind it. T1
8. States he it has been 4 days since his last post but refrains from defending himself or stating his current FoS. S2

Although post #3 and #7 are viewed as minor town-tells his lack of real content to the game and lack of desire to scumhunt in the few posts he has made make me more certain of my vote.

[Umbrage]

I think a laughing emoticon was an entirely appropriate response to "I don't see why scum would not want to move the game past RVS. In fact, the faster we're out of RVS, the faster a lynch will happen, and scum want fast lynches. So if anything, wanting to move the game past RVS is a scumtell."
If you can't see the flaw in that argument you should probably just not play Mafia, to be perfectly frank.

I do see the flaw. That's the whole point: Snake Eyes made a flawed argument. Thus, he is scum. You come so close to understanding, but clarity still eludes you.

what what what

YOU made that argument. You. It was in your post. I saw it.

Try again. Snake Eyes was assuming that wanting to move out of RVS is a town-tell. This is stupid. I showed how it could be a scum-tell. That was stupid. The truth? It's a null-tell. Since you seem incapable of reading anything beyond a small paragraph, I will spell it out for you:

Snake Eyes thought ConSpiracy was town. He did not have a good reason to think ConSpiracy was town.

Understand now?

[Regfan]

Umbrage I have a question for you: If you think SnakeEyes is mafia who do you think his partners are?

[Umbrage]

Honestly, I don't know. ConSpiracy is the most obvious link, but outside of their connection I think CS is town. It's possible that when the scum see their partner get attacked so early, they start bussing him. So I don't trust linking tells. Otherwise, I have slight scumreads on Quaroath and Vordark.

[iamausername]

OK, so you don't actually believe that wanting to move the game past random voting is a scumtell. That's good.

New problem: "Snake Eyes made a flawed argument. Thus, he is scum." is another flawed argument. Making flawed arguments is not actually a sign of being scum, otherwise I would be voting for you right now.

I mean, not that I actually agree that Snake Eyes made a flawed argument in the first place, but you know. Baby steps.

[Umbrage]

Flawed arguments that have a clear scum motive are a scumtell. It would be good for scum to find CS town, so they could buddy up to him and get me lynched.

[Regfan]

Flawed arguments are indeed a scum-tell but that doesn't mean they always indicate mafia, especially when the 'flawed argument' is something that's based of the end of the RVS period.

[Umbrage]

Flawed arguments are indeed a scum-tell but that doesn't mean they always indicate mafia, especially when the 'flawed argument' is something that's based of the end of the RVS period.

Flawed arguments that have a clear scum motive are a scumtell. It would be good for scum to find CS town, so they could buddy up to him and get me lynched.

[iamausername]

...clear scum motive... ...get me lynched.

Ladies and gentlemen; Umbrage.

[Umbrage]

...clear scum motive... ...get me lynched.

Ladies and gentlemen; Umbrage.

Why else would he want me lynched? Even if I was scum, how would he know it at that time? And why did he think CS was town?