Open 293 - Donner Party Mafia, Take Two (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

/confirm

[MagnaofIllusion]

Greetings fellow Donner Party members ….

For the first time in a long time I have not played with a majority of players here.
Well met to DRK, Singer, DH, Friend.

Since there are new (to me) players here I’ll give my old speech once again.

If you the Goons or Serial Killer you had best kill me Night 1. I’m getting that out of the way right now. Otherwise I will enjoy the time you allow me to hunt you down and hang you. You have been warned.

--

VOTE: Escho

For getting banned and making our mod find a replacement.

I’ve found players not named UncertainKitten who go out of their way to avoid making a RVS or joke vote on an active player have a high correlation with being scum.

Since you seem new and joined Mafiascum on my birthday I’ll just ask straight out – are you Scum?

Preview Edit - Add folding immediately when questioned to my suspicions.

--

Vote DH he is the SK
Any way no more posts from me today, I'm off to mod my newbie and then I'm going out.

1. Serial Killer hunting (even in jest)? Subtle slip …
2. Over-justification for not posting content when you frankly never do anyway?

Early game jitters from a player known for drawing lynches. Which indicates scum.

VOTE: Shotty

This vote is not random.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome pappums.

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Ha! I forgot there was an sk in this game.

Really? That’s interesting.

1. Did you not fully review all the role-pms upon the game starting to gather information? I did. From doing so I learned that scum have Daychat so I abandoned a line of thought I had about Friend being possible Goon for being late to confirm while being active elsewhere on site.
2. You directly quoted Shotty saying “DH is the SK”. You didn’t notice him referring to the SK then?

--

Is this really true? I'll have to keep that in my database to use at a later date. No, I am not scum. Are you?
(but in all seriousness, are you scum?)

Why would you keep it in your database if you are unsure if it is true (which is inferred by your question)?

Do you not read the thread? I’ve already told you I’m not in my first post.

I'm not sure what your preview edit means. Is that a question?

A preview edit is created when someone Previews their post and sees others have posted while they were drafting. Responses are then edited in … thus the term Preview edit.

It wasn’t a question but an observation.

As a newbie I'm still trying to feel my way about the proper etiquette for playing here, and apparently one of the things I still don't get is how to do RVs. I've already been yelled at for not participating in them and it's a little frustrating to be reprimanded again for doing something silly during this stage of the game again.

There is no proper way to do RVS. It isn’t a separate stage of the game that has its own rules and etiquette. People are going to ‘yell’ at you regardless of how you operate because that is a part of the early game – needling and questioning small, insignificant things to get the game rolling.

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I missed this. Is this a serious vote?

Friend has already explained it wasn’t. My question – why would you think it was? It was pretty clear from the context (Lane using multiple exclamation points).

Do you have proof of this? Statistically speaking? Former games of yours should suffice, link a few if you can, please.

No, I don’t have have a statistically proven tell there. At best it is anecdotal (IdiotKing in the abandoned Prison Mafia is the case the leaps to mind first) observation. I was reaction testing Tclaw than observing a scum-tell.

tclawren is a special case because he, by his own admission and as DRK pointed out, put a vote on someone who can't reply back, and therefore is a useless/unhelpful RVS vote.

No information can be gained from it.

Your own focus on Tclaw’s vote contradicts the bolded portion above. You are drawing information as to possible scum motivations for voting someone who can’t comment back.

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VOTE: MoI for trying to limit our fun in RVS.

1. What allotment of cute antics are required until your fun quota is met?
2. How am I limiting your fun as you proceeded to drop 4 votes in what must be a fun fashion for you in said post?
3. Why are you limiting my fun (which involves playing the game)?

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I've played with shotty-scum, and ended up defending him most of the way, stupidly enough, since I've also played with shotty-town. They're oddly mostly the same, at least from my experience.

So you’ve offered up that you will not be able to read Shotty while saying nothing about my serious vote on him. Why?

No, I still think lane is probably town. Just that one point is a little scummy, but the rest of it doesn't feel like it.

Noted for future reference by me dependant on Lane’s alignment.

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Why do you say this? I wish you would not wish for death if you are in fact going to play a huge roll for the town

First and foremost it was a reaction test.

Did you stop to actually think about why I posted it or just react without considering?

oh god, did not see things were getting so serious already, just saw last post and skipped around

unvote

Did you post your first post (5 minutes before this one) before fully reading the thread? If so why?

Magna is gone, so can someone tell me why he would let everyone in on that he is very good at being town and inviting the scum to kill him? I do not understand this play in my limited abilities. if he's town i don't want scum to be killing the best players. and... why would

he say this unless he has no fear of being killed

? i'm concerned...

Regardless, if he is scum, he really would have no fear of being killed night 1 would he? esp if SK. so it would be a pretty safe thing to say.

This is the kind of reaction I was looking for. You’ve chosen to go down the MoI is scum WIFOMing route. I’ve bolded the part in the first statement where you want to subtly suggest I’m scum but aren’t willing to do more than be concerned.

The second is more clear but still still incorrect. Both Goons and the Serial Killer fear being killed.

1. There’s a Town controlled kill.
2. Cross-kills are possible.
3. A kill that doesn’t go through on a player (barring Roleblock schenanigans) is tantamount to a Cop guilty.

Please explain the scum motivation (even the Serial Killer) for directly drawing attention to myself in the first post. I am all ears.

obviously now seeing other people finding me scummy, bleh, i'll say what i really thought about magna's comment

1. You have one serious vote (Andrew) and a mild suggestion by Friend. The reaction here is not in proportion to the ‘suspicion’
2. Why would, as Town, you withhold your true thoughts in the first place if you thought I was scum? You wouldn’t. This has all the earmarks of a “Hey look over here – MoI is scum” move now that you are drawing attention yourself.

lol, if he gets killed night 1 alot, why draw attention to yourself and tell people that don't know that? now we're just gonna lose are best player?!?! well fuck...

Nice variation on “Oh no the Doc is dead” tell here. Why do you assume I’m the best player? DRK is a strong vet with about 8 months more experience than me.

lol how's that for emotion?

but seriously? you're high.

Scum reaction right there. Dismissiveness as opposed to questioning ('what specifically was the AtE Andrew and what is the etc?' would have been a logical Town response).

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vote lane
he is so scummy.
ate etc

Hmmm … interesting.

Andrew I’ve never played with you but having read some of your games I know two things

1. You don’t explain very well.
2. You have better than expected guts instincts.

In this case you thoughts are lining up with mine ..

UNVOTE: Shotty
VOTE: Lane

[MagnaofIllusion]

OH GAWD, IT'S A WALL. HIDE YO WIFE, HIDE YO KIDS, HIDE YO HUSBAND CUZ MAGNA'S RAPIN' ALL DA SCUMZ OUT HERE...except I disagree with his conclusion on lane entirely.

Aside from some extraneous All-Caps involving your dislike of wall posts I’d like some more information about this disagreement.

What points of my case on Lane do you specifically disagree with?

It seems like you're getting lost in trying to find motivation where there's only mindset.

Can you explain the difference and why one is valid scum-hunting but the other isn’t please?

I'm actually kind of surprised mafia have day talk, considering only

one of them is given the role of the mafia night kill

.

Can you explain the bolded because you lost me completely in the undergrowth there …

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Also I still want Shotty to realize that what he said was suspicious. So I will vote for him at least until he comes back.
VOTE: Shotty

He posted only twice at 15 and 17. Every single one of your posts aside from your confirm came after his posts, yet this is the first time you’ve even written his name.

When did his play suddenly become suspect to you?

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@Twisted – 65

shows some suspicions of both DRK and Lane yet you don’t place a vote. Why?

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@Pappums – 66

shows some suspicions of both Lan and myself yet you place a vote on Demon Hybrid who you don’t even mention. Why?

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Why are you voting for me if you are not SURE of my alignment?

Because as Town I can never be SURE of anyone’s alignment other than my own. Have you played Mafia before?

You play is scummy enough for me to vote and pursue you at this stage of the game. Scum can and do get caught in the first 3 pages of games.

And mafia's odds of living through night 1, if not lynched day 1, are quite high.

Explain why the Mafia’s odds of living through the night are ‘quite’ high if not lynched? I’d like some support for your assertion.

Scum motivation imo? Well... establish yourself as one of the best players so people will immediately be on your side. I feel your style of play is to get peopel to fear you and hence go with whatever you say. if they say something contradictory, they will be castrated. And that would be what i see for motivation. people have said you get killed night 1 a lot. why do you not get killed day 1 a lot? you MUST be scum at SOME point right?

Once again establishing myself as ‘the best player’ does me no good from a scum-perspective because regardless there is another Anti-Town faction that would be motivated to remove me since you say I am so influential. Thus that motivation makes zero sense.

Please explain still the town motivation of your comment, if you'll only gonna be good for day 1? are you going to give all of us town who the mafia is on that one day? cause hey man, it'd really be nice to have someone as good as you along throughout to help.

Sorry, I’m not going to currently. If it benefits Town to disclose it down the line I will. If not in the post game.

1) what was my reaction? bleh? is that an excess amount of rage, sorrow, or joy? I am not seeing the improportion here. as you have stated, it was only one serious vote, and what Friend said. I do not see "bleh" to be out of proportion

That you even felt the need to mention you were being suspected at all and thus have to ‘change your play’ is a reaction above and beyond the norm. You admit yourself the suspicion on you is minimal.

2) Its in the first three pages and i'm saying what i think. AS SOON AS I DO you tell me its scummy. why the fuck woudl i NOT hold back thoughts?

You’ve dodge the question. Why wouldn’t you immediately say your suspicions when you first had them? Once again they only came out because “now seeing other people finding me scummy”.

Do you not read the posts fully before you respond? if not, why? If you read the post before mine, the question as already been asked. Also dismissive because that was a FAR stretch to say i was appealing to emotion.

I do read them. Your point? Just because Demons asks Andrew a question doesn’t have anything to do with your reaction.

You don’t think the phrase “but seriously? you're high.” is anything but dismissive?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Friend

- having seen the handy dandy vote count I have a question -

Why are you parking your ostensible RVS joke vote on someone you think is Town when they have an actual wagon?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - I'll be V/LA til Monday for a very busy weekend.

I'll review and respond when I return but for the record a 100% meta driven attack this early in the Day is HORRIBLE.

DRK

- So you have flip-flopped on Friend again? And who are the scum on the Lane wagon specifically (since you call it scum-driven)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Friend called it scum-driven, not me.

And seriously MoI, read andrew's games and THEN make that statement.

You are correct ... Friend did say that not you - my quick-read through mistake.

@Friend - who are the scum driving the Lane wagon.

As for your 'case' - if you feel free to dismiss my approach based on gut I'm happy to dismiss yours for non-belief in meta as the foundation for a case.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from my long weekend –

The following group of lurkers has at least one scum in it

– mockingjaye, pappums, drshotty and singersinger.

Are they all scum? Of course not but both statistically and behaviourally there is one scum blending in with his fellow low contributors. Possibly two since we have two independent factions. Don’t forget this list after I’m dead.

--

Despite being a complete lurker mockingjaye did manage to make a good point about lane’s use of “you are all royally fucked” as opposed to “we are screwed”.

--

lol, so you're admitting it's OMGUS then?

You are trying to assert OMGUS is anything but Null?

--

Analogy time. If we were playing poker and I had a tell on you would I tell you what it was in the middle of the game? Of course not. Same idea here, if I express to you what I believe the difference in your town and scum games are, you could change your game and I have lost my edge.

How about a better analogy. You are playing poker and have a tell on someone. You have to convince the other players at the table that you have discovered said tell and that it means you have the better hand before cards are shown. Otherwise the hand is a push and no-one wins the pot.

Mafia is not Poker.

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I was referring to the fact that only the goon submitting the kill finds out the role of the dead player. It seems strange to me that mafia have day talk because it means the second goon finds out immediately.

Why do you find that strange? We are in a 9-2-1 set-up where there are two discrete kills that the Goons do not control. Daytalk and coordination is one of the only strengths the Mafia team has.

What's your current opinion on tcl?

He’s one of my neutral reads at the moment. Which means he’s in a better spot IM O than most players.

Let's assume for the moment that Twistedspoon is scum. Can you explain to me the thought process behind his posts if andrew is town?

Why are you using theoretical situations that work only towards the reads you already have?

--

MS is so full of shit. If i vote him i will most certainly get "WOW NICE OMGUS"

1. Who is MS?
2. Why are you worried about whether someone says your vote is OMGUS or not?

I am frustrated because if MOI is town, he is certainly searching for tells rather than letting people slip up. I am town. So why is he so confident in my being scum? THAT is the reason for my frustration. If he's so damn good, wtf is he so far off?

1. So your preferred method of hunting scum is to passively sit around hoping someone makes a ‘mistake’?
2. I’m confident you are scum because you are playing in a scummy manner. I don’t give people a pass for being ‘new’. If you aren’t scum then it should be a good learning experience for you.

The reason being that if you are town, you have 2 factions trying to kill you, and if you are mafia, you have only one.

No, you don’t. Scum have the Town Vig and Serial Killer as potential threats. The Serial Killer has Scum and the Town Vig. This also ignores the effects of game-play and the relative numbers involved.

I did not say you are influential. You asserted that yourself in your first post

Really? You’ve just spent many posts effectively whining about how screwed Town is if I am scum because I’m leading them around by the nose. The whole basis of that argument is that I’m influential.

This is pure Cognitive Dissonance.

I felt the issue had been addressed by demon, and therefore responded with my own comic relief.

So you were adding nothing but insulting comedy with that statement then? Town has no reason to do that …

consistency twisted. please switch your vote from me to singer for her blatant buddying

Nothing Pro-Town about this post. Singer’s post saying she <3s DRK was not equivalent at all to your post where you <3ed DRK for calling you Town. Yes, I see you called it a joke about positivity. I don’t find that a very convincing argument.

What scum-hunting motive does this throw-away statement have.

--

I think lane is definitely town, and the wagon on him is scumdriven.

Who. Names and reasons NOW!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am happy with my vote where it stands.

Lane’s play has been scummy IMO and the latest batch of answers doesn’t reduce my suspicion.

My other Top suspect is Friend.

Read his ISO. It’s filled to the rim with reasons why people aren’t scum but has ZERO scum-hunting. The closest he comes is some mild comments about DemonHybrid wagonning (which isn’t a scum-tell, especially early) and some unexplainable gut on DRK.

Not he proceeds to wagon TwistedSpoon himself with little reason at ISO 11. His post at ISO 8 where he says DH is scum applies directly to his wagon hop on Twisted.

DH's case is basically "uhh what Magna said" and it seems to me like he's just picking on easy targets.

Insert Friend in place of DH and DRK in place of Magna and it applies directly to his vote-hop at his ISO 11. For bonus points consider he has a gut scum read on DRK and yet is following his lead on TwistedSpoon.

So we've got Cognitive Dissonance working here ...

I’ll be looking indepth at Andrew’s game threads when I get a chance.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome Romanus!

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Not sure what you expected to get out of asking me this.

I’m trying to see how honest you are about your opinion on the subject. Because quite frankly before flips saying “Read Player Z as scum, what does this say about Player Y” is pointless fluffing of your case on Andrew. It proves nothing other than that reading Twisted in a manner pre-disposed to find him scummy leads to makes Andrew more scummy. After an actual flip it is warranted. Before it’s pointless and distracting.

For example me saying “Read DRK as scum … do you see his statements towards Lane as being possible if Lane is Town?” is bad scum-hunting. Until I know you are scum it’s grandstanding and use of confirmation bias.

--

All you guys calling me out for wagoning (*cough* MAGNA *cough*) I was the first vote on twisted. DRK wagoned on ME, not the other way around. She was the one arguing with twisted, but calling my vote a hypocritical wagon hop is the farthest thing from the truth.

The point is not that you voted after DRK. The point is that your vote is exactly the equivalent to what you accused DH of being scummy for – you voted following DRK’s ‘case’ and reasoning on TwistedSpoon by more or less saying "What DRK said, Vote Twisted".

So if DH voting without providing any independent reasons and following someone else’s case is scummy then your vote for Twisted is scummy for exactly the same reasoning. QED.

No comments at all on the accusations that your ISO is devoid of scum-hunting? Noted.

--

If i get lynched due to the points you and others have brought up, what will i learn from it?

I guess you can tell me when its over. Don't you think if I am town it will be a good learning experience for you?

or you don't really give a shit. its not a mistake to lynch town. either way i'm sure you'll think you played this perfectly.

Italicized for emphasis – you should have an idea about things that are people perceive as scummy play and work to avoid them when you are Town.

Bolded for emphasis – I’ll learn about your play-style and tendancies you have as a player based on your alignment (which I do not know).

Of course lynching Town is never a good thing. Realistically it is going to happen during a game. Town outnumber the scum by a 3 to 1 margin. Both Town who are lynched and Town who participate in said lynches are not perfect.

I don't feel i've made any mistakes. I've answered all your questions honestly to the best of my knowledge... made some jokes that i think are funny. I'm sorry you do not think so, you clearly have a different view of fun.

What purpose do your jokes have in hunting down scum? I keep asking you this and am not getting an answer. If the answer is none don’t expect my thoughts to change. IMO GD and other places exist to make jokes solely to do so.

i vote twisted because i understand the points brought against him. deal with it.

I am dealing with it. If you don’t like the way that is happening I can’t help that.

As you recall "i said it with the scenario... i would be lynched" still pretty sure that's going to happen. I don't know why i would phrase it differently.

The problem everyone is having and that you appear to not be getting is summarized thusly –

Mafia is a Team game. Town wins regardless of whether they are dead or alive at the end of the game as long as Town fulfills its win condition. So even if you are lynched as Town day 1 the proper Town mindset is that ‘We are screwed’ not ‘You are screwed’.

--

I believe that when Andrew plays as scum he is more interested in the game and posts more content. Paradoxically his play as scum is more pro-town than when he actually does get town. And his plays early in this game fit what I see as his scum game.

So you find Andrew’s game here to be Pro-Town?

--

His response to MoI makes me wonder: MoI, have you, as town, ever publicly “asked” for the NK on D1 before? If so, can you link a game?

Not on Mafiascum. The old site I used to play on requires registration so I’m not going to bother to attempt to link to those games.

MoI’s 179/180: Re: insulting comedy, I feel as though you tunneled Lane with that, as there were other people who have done the same thing. I feel like Lane’s been on the defensive for quite a while now, so his lack of scumhunting is null. Twisted’s scummier, IMO.

Who else has made ‘jokes’ in lieu of scum-hunting in this game after RVS? Can I get post numbers please.

What specifically do you find scummier about Twisted? Is the case his magic re-read and his cautiousness?

--

anyone else think there's a scum on my wagon?

Singer nailed this but I don’t see this as anything but weak pandering – “look at me I’m poor Town who is getting run up by scum”.

--

alright demon is confirmed scum too cos all he says is 'stop it you two' whilst doing nothing'

He might be scum but certainly not for that.

He’s right – you both (and mainly you) need to

SHUT UP ABOUT ON-GOING GAMES

. It’s a fucking site wide rule.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: Of your list of lurkers, who do you suspect the most?

I have to say I don’t suspect any one of them at this stage directly. They haven’t posted enough to get a feel. That’s the point of lurking, IMO. I listed all four simply to keep it top of mind for me.

Now that Shotty has been replaced his slot appears to be providing more content to be judged by.

Before DRK mentioned a possible tell on him, I thought his play was pro-town. As for his play right now... I think it would be silly to say it is pro-town.

DRK posted his tell on Andrew at 108.

Andrew has 6 posts before that (ISO 0-5). Please tell me which ones looked Pro-Town and why.

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it's a joke

I’ll ask you what I asked Lane – what scum hunting purpose do you have throwing that in? Looking at your 207 I see the following

1. Response to Singer that does nothing but say “hey, I think scum are on my wagon”. No scum hunting there.
2. A statement where you say you have no idea who said scum are. No scum-hunting there.
3. Your joke.

[MagnaofIllusion]

seriously, i can not help it. that thing about laughing at my own jokes. please do not respond, its one of those things that serve no purpose in scum hunting. I am sorry

There is nothing wrong with joking if it is in addition to actual scum-hunting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Twisted, make a read. Who is scum on your wagon?

Hello, Captain Hypocricy!!!

I've asked you on multiple occasions to support your assertions that the Lane wagon is scum-driven with reads.

Each time you ignore.

Yet now you are calling someone else on the carpet for not making reads?

Everyone jump on board, this wagon is go!!!!

UNVOTE: Lane
VOTE: Friend

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna I'm thinking you have to be scum this game, because you're normally not this stupid.

Beginning your post with a false dilemma that I am either scum or stupid. Nice touch to deftly lob an insult while casually dismissing that you are scum.

If you've actually read me you'd understand that I've said multiple times that I think DH and twisted are prob-scum. Both are on the Lane wagon.

I read your ISO. It’s short and completely lacks scum-hunting. And let’s review what you said about each person.

I feel like this is a better wagon. DH's case is basically "uhh what Magna said" and it seems to me like he's just picking on easy targets.

Here you say DH is scum for jumping on the wagon.

No, not sarcasm. I think DH is likely scum. Same with twistedspoon.

I'm kind of flopping on DH and twisted but twisted has been worse recently so:

Here you contradict yourself in regards to DH in two sentances. First he is likely scum but then you turn around and say you are ‘flopping’ on DH? What? Makes no sense if you had a real read on him as scum to say you are flopping on him. Instead you change your vote from a no-go wagon DH to Twisted who is catching hell in thread. And again – no reasons that are concrete – you simply say he is ‘worse recently’.

Yup, that’s the full extent of your reasoning on either player. In other word – nothing. So yeah, you've called them scum. And that's it. So I'm not about to accept that as the reason you ignored my specific request.

1. Do you think they are scum together or are they Goon / SK split?
2. You say that the Lane wagon is scum driven – how exactly are they driving the wagon? Your only attack on DH is that he hopped on with no reasons. The only people who have significantly driven suspicion at Lane are myself and Andrew (who hopped of long ago).

--

@Romanus

– You’ve voted for Lane. Who else is scum? Please provide your top 2 other suspects and a short reason why.

--

magua conviently jumping off the lane wagon and not onto twistedspooin's either.

cough*

The irony it is burning my eyes.

1. Where have I expressed any suspicion that Twisted is scum? I don’t vote for people because it is popular.
2. I find it funny because you hopped of the Lane wagon and landed on DRK where you have been parked. So it’s suspicious to unvote Lane and not vote Twisted, is it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome replacements!

Preview edit - Damn Ninjas - I'll look that over in a bit ...

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I've been flip-flopping in my mind on Twisted.

Please explain the case you see it on Twisted (since to be flip flopping you have to have some notion he is scum) and what gives you the pause that creates the flip-flop.

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I meant flopping as in I wasn't sure which one was scummier and which one I wanted to vote for. Yet ANOTHER misrep.

You keep doing these, Magna, and I know you're a good player and not an idiot. So, which is it? Are you scum, or have you lost your mind this game?

In re-reading I can see that statement to be interpreted as you state here. So that portion of my suspicion is withdrawn as incorrect.

What other Misrep have I made? Calling you a hypocrite for asking Twisted to provide reads when you ignored my question (regardless of whether you felt you had already answered it) isn’t a mis-rep.

Additionally you’ve let other questions go by unanswered. I’m going to compile them in one place so you have little excuse to not respond.

1. Do you think DH and Twisted are scum together or is one the SK and the other a Goon?
2. You say that the Lane wagon is scum driven – how exactly are they driving the wagon? Your only attack on DH is that he hopped on with no reasons. The only people who have significantly driven suspicion at Lane are myself and Andrew (who hopped of long ago).
3. You’ve spent your ISO more or less pronouncing people not scum but provided little in the way of reasons for your suspicions –

You say DH was scum solely for jumping on the Lane wagon.
You say Twisted was scum since his play was ‘worse than DH’s’ lately. That’s it.
You have an undefined gut scum read on DRK.

That’s the extent of your suspicions based on play.

Please elaborate in detail on the cases, as you see them, on Twisted and DH.

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@magna, what i was saying is u jumped off a popular wagon to vote another, also you are not voting the other high wagon ( so u want every1 to move>??)

I understand what you are saying. That you brought it up when you did the exact same thing I find strange.

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anyways, lane seems to have been less scummy since her pronoun slips and my vote on her. I don't think she's today's kill.
I'm watching friend atm.

1. Why is your vote still on Lane then?
2. Why are you watching Friend? Do you think he is scum? If so why aren’t you voting for him?

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I DO wonder why MOI jumped off my popular wagon when he seemed to be pretty sure of my scumminess.

@MOI, do you have less suspicion of me? and if not... why move your vote to a player who seems to not have a lot of suspicion from others. I'm not saying you have to vote on wagons... I'm just saying that of two people you feel are scum, why not vote on the more popular one? It just seems more productive

Note the coy way that he infers it is suspicious for me to move (I DO wonder, I’m just saying that …) but avoids directly stating it.

I don’t have less suspicion of you. I think you are scum based on your play. Your wagon has stalled and of the players not voting for you (or at least those actively playing) have stated they don’t think you are scum.

I don’t like to keep my vote somewhere that is not effective. I think my stance on you is well documented. I moved my vote to another top suspect to show my suspicions are valid. If the wagon on you shows signs of life again I will happily move my vote back.

[MagnaofIllusion]

see 243 among others

I've an eye on friend though

Huh? In 243 you ask him a bunch of question and say nothing about why you think he is scummy.

I also asked you - why do you have an eye on Friend? What (aside from the obvious OMGUS angle) about his play makes you think he is scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Chesskid –

Who is scum? I see a bunch of ‘Player X gets scum-points, ok nevermind’ in 254 and things you don’t like but no definitive stances. I’m not even sure you actually think Twisted is scum or just like the wagon.

--

@Xalxe

– whose Alt are you?

--

@Xalxe and DRK

– Does you think your Mafia Game Theory back and forth serves any scum-hunting purpose?

--

Pre-post edit: You don't think TS was scummy for anything else, but you think he's scummy for....that?

I’m agreeing with Xalxe on that pick-up, although I would expand on it. Twised has now shown a propensity to appease.

He first showed it with his ‘super-skim’ of Andrew’s games. As an isolated incident it didn’t strike me as scumtastic.

But his whole exchange with me where he does it TWICE more makes me strongly consider the scum motivation involved –

His unvote at 249 was pure appeasement of my question about his vote still being on Lane.

His vote on Friend at 251 after I questioned why he actually voted for Andrew is further appeasement … he voted immediately for my current vote with minimal reasoning and dodged answering about why he wagonned Andrew.

--

@Tclaw

– In looking through your ISO I noticed the following that I missed the first time –

(note to self: if using sarcasm put in sarcasm tags so TS doesn't mistake it for seriousness.)

I noticed this off-hand swipe at TS for questioning Lane’s comment about consistency. Why didn’t you comment about me in a similar fashion since I asked Lane directly also?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Something wrong with liking wagons?

Not inherently. I just want you on record as to who you think is scum.

That's Pro-Town behavior, BTW.

So answer the question.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What? I'm not scum Chesskid?

I would think you would say so since I've been attacking 'bad players' and not scum according to you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

1) ...my own? Why do you think I am an alt?

Xalxe is a Scummer who joined on January 20, 2010 at the age of 16.

He is a known alt of somebody

, but who that somebody is remains a mystery to all but the most obersvant.

Are you going to answer the question?

--

and I know I changed my vote to friend in >15 mins. If we're going to catch scum, it's no help pointing out the obvious things which players
now they've done. I wouldn't change my vote so quickly and obviously if I didn't have confidence in doing so.

Umm … pointing out the possible scum motivation in posts by players is how you catch scum. You ‘forgot’ to switch you vote originally and then immediately moved it rather than defend why you were voting Andrew.

--

So in your mind if you have a really strong townread on someone and people keep attacking them, and they suck at defending themselves

This is making an argument that isn’t relevant to the accusation being made. People (myself included) are pointing out that Friend has ‘Town’ reads on multiple players with minimal reasoning.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOI... Xalxe answered your question. He is his own Alt. That's what an Alt is as far as I have learned. I think its an alternate account from your own original account. Also what is your scumhunting movtivation for this question?

His own alt? Are you kidding me?

I'm asking who the original account is. It's important for reasons that I'm not going to share until Xalxe answers the question.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Uhhh....sorry to intrude on your scumhunting and all, but it's kind of unfair to expect an alt to reveal its main.

I, however, could reveal it for a price

Life isn't fair cupcake ...

And by all means don't let me distract your copious scum-hunting DRK ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Big catch-up incoming … I wasn’t prodded but have been very busy the last 48 hours and have had no time to post

Deadline is almost here. The following players are absolutely lurking / active lurking …. there is scum hiding in this group somewhere –

Friend (we will know soon enough)
Singersinger
Romanus
Xalxe

--

Twisted’s claim (which was coming anyway) resolves any questions about how to handle things. With no protective roles he’s dead tonight if he’s the Town Vig most likely.

@Twisted

– You dayvig gambit was quite stupid given the set-up is open. No-one was going to ‘fall’ for it. Also for the record – I agree with those questioning your late crumbing. Valid crumbs have no reason to be posted so late. In fact the only time I’ve seen late crumbs like that it was coming from a scum fake-claiming Cop.

why don't town vote on who I vig so that my claim isn't in vain?

Gah. That never works out well. Announce your target if you want but the shot is yours and you are going to take responsibility for it (assuming you aren’t eaten).

--

Lane’s 328

with multiple instances of “I’m not good at this game” and similar statements sets my hairs on end.

GOTCHA!! BLATANT buddying, all while bussing his very good and dear scum buddy andrew. these two have it worked down to an art. Nobody likes cupcakes. Unless they are confetti.

Please elaborate – are you calling DRK scum with Andrew here? If so why didn’t you vote for either on in this post? Especially in light of 328 where you elaborate on that reasoning. You don’t even vote for either one when you unvoted Twisted.

Lane’s 397

screams scum hedging.

And then we have

413

where you ignore your ‘called’ scum-reads and vote for Chesskid to be spiteful.

Lane is scum. Unfortuately too many of you refuse to see that.

--

also lolhammering town is not a good thing as scum. Lot of questions to answer the next day.

Except Twisted has been sitting at L-1 for long enough that someone who hammered him then wasn’t likely to catch flack for it.

NOBODY HAMMERED YOU
THAT DOESNT MAKE THEM TOWN
2 SCUM + SK

If Twisted is Town who do you think was mostly likely scum on his wagon? You’ve stated who you think is off his wagon is scum (Romanus).

However the massive lurking when a Romanus wagon was suggested along with EVERYONE IGNORING IT is kinda telling in my eyes.

Um whut? Sorry, but that makes no sense.

If Romanus is Goon then only 1 player has any reason to ignore your call.
If Romanus is SK then no other player has any reason to ignore it.

The logical conclusion is that everyone ignored your call because it really wasn’t that compelling.

If anyone looks scummy based on your push it is Tclaw, IMO, who has stated he’ll jump on if there is momentum but is avoiding it otherwise. Opprotunisim.

--

spls stfu twisted, it is a burden having you as a vig, i suggest the roleblocker roleblock twisted.

I can’t decide if this is scummy or just stupid. Rolebocking Twisted is fail on all three counts.

1. If he’s the Vig it stops a Town PR.
2. If he’s a Goon his partner can send in the kill and no harm is done.
3. If he’s the SK it fails on him the first time.

Even if he is Roleblocked and a kill ends up missing it doesn’t absolutely confirm him as the Vig since the Vig shot could have hit the SK.

--

How can you not know who to suspect/vote for at this point in time?

Because he is careful scum who is playing the “I’M NEW” card. For Gods sake he's ignoring his own cases.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can get on board with a Lane over Friend lynch.

UNVOTE: Friend
VOTE: Lane

Especially since the rules state we are not risking a No-Lynch.

[MagnaofIllusion]

last but not least, i am the dietician, i have been leaving breadcrumbs all day.

Lane … if you are indeed Town this little ‘joke’ is incredibly Anti-Town. Someone who wasn’t reading carefully and saw it might immediately counter-claim thinking you to be scum
.

vote: MOI I still think he's scum. I still think if he's not, lynching town is unacceptable

Of course it is unacceptable. But it’s a fact of Mafia. Complete sweeps of scum are VERY rare. Town who play in a manner that is perceived as scummy are going to be lynched.

--

This concerns me a lot. What do you need a full list of my reads before nightfall for? *classic pronoun dilemma*

Why does it concern you? You’ve been a complete non-entity this game. I personally would like to know where you stand on players before Nightfall. Accountability for positions is Pro-Town.

Do we even have an L-1 or L-2 now? Deadline's in like two seconds and we're facing a possibility of a no lynch.

Dislike for the incorrect deadline assumption and for clearly not reading the thread since I JUST (at post 451) highlighted there is no risk of a No lynch.

@Singer re 479

– You do understand that in a Multi-scum environment (Goons plus SK) that scum has every reason to ‘analyze players and think about the game' to look for the opposing scum, right? And thus it isn’t a very useful Town tell?

--

I'M HERE AND POSTING AND STUFF (or at least will post in a second)

I see lane has claimed.

This post exemplifies exactly why Lane’s Joke Claim was Anti-Town.

Anyone voting lane because they actually think he's scummy is delusional.

Keep Cassandraing it up my friend … keeping Cassandraing it up.

@DRK

– What happened to your ‘Andrew is playing to his scum meta’ case you made. I see you wave it away with ‘he’s playing better as of late’?

At this point your scum-hunting today is ‘errr … Gut’ and Meta which you don’t seem to believe in strongly at all. Not impressive if you are Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@EVERYONE

– If on the off chance Singer pokes her head out from lurking to try to claim (and the Roleblocker would be the ONLY claim to make) please don’t counterclaim her. At this point based on her play and history of lurking as scum I think she absolutely needs to hang.

With only one death we don’t need the last Town PR outed.

VOTE: Singer

--

it's obvious that the SK and mafia both targeted xalxe with the hope that the other would target me

Once we get Singer’s flip I’ll speculate about why we had not 1 but 2 missing kills.

--

I feel bad quicklynching singer. The two of us are buds!...even if I won't explain the second mermaid thing to her...

Sure, feel free to let personal feelings get smack dab in the way of Playing to win (assuming you are Town, which I am not at this stage).

--

I'll wait to lay down the hammer until you guys are ready. But this seems like an easy call.

Of course it is an easy call. You aren’t going to get away with lurking again.

Top Two other Scum suspects with reasons in your next post.

--

If I were you, I'd shoot DH tonight >_>

Hey look … directing the Vig. Not good at all.

--

I'm guessing you're going to play it off cool, like "Well it was worth a shot" and cripple town without a second thought?

Why are you assuming anyone is going to be looking at Chesskid for leadership? He floats lazily through the game regardless of alignment as of late. He’s a walking pre-LYLO policy lynch.

[MagnaofIllusion]

still mad about ASOS i see

Nope. I'm being a realist.

Return to Liten - you replaced in and were a COMPLETE waste of Town space.
Jurrasic Park Mafia - you basically were allowed to coast by doing NO scum-hunting all game based on others wanting to play follow the mechanics.

You'll be lynched before LYLO in this game, either for being scum or to prevent your mislynch at LYLO if you are Town.

Them's the facts kid.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD – If the Serial Killer and Goons both tried to kill the same person (aka Xalxe) how would the rules specifically govern the reveal of Xalxe’s identity?

--

That being said, and after much thought put into this, Magna, I'm calling you out for thinking that not having posted yet since the thread opened LAST NIGHT is considered lurking.

The lurking in question was not today but yesterday. Nice try there Tex. I reference you to the following posts –

The following group of lurkers has at least one scum in it – mockingjaye, pappums, drshotty and singersinger.

Are they all scum? Of course not but both statistically and behaviourally there is one scum blending in with his fellow low contributors. Possibly two since we have two independent factions. Don’t forget this list after I’m dead.

Deadline is almost here. The following players are absolutely lurking / active lurking …. there is scum hiding in this group somewhere –

Friend (we will know soon enough)
Singersinger
Romanus
Xalxe

The first was made on March 21st and the second on March 29th. I have clearly indicated you were lurking Day 1. Attempting to spin that to say I was calling you lurking solely for not posting immediately after Day2 opened is scummy. Not that you haven’t already admitted to being scum.

I also ask you to point out where my meta leads to scum lurking, as "lurking" (aka, not being around as much as I'd like) has been in my MO for the past month. If you could reference a game I wasn't in the hospital for some time, that'd be appreciated.

Metropolis … where you lurked as a Hydra.

Did you ever post in this game that you were in the Hospital? I seem to have missed that little bit of information. Am I a mind-reader? Nope ... I looked at your ISO. No mention of being hospitalized. You were lurking IMO Day 1 as my ISO suggests and the results of Metropolis show you have a propensity to lurk as Scum.

I would also suggest town hold Magna accountable for why he thinks my play has anything to do with my eminent lynch. Was it bad? Scummy? Not good enough for you?

See the above. Your play was increadibly lurky and I call you potential scum immediately on that. If you think my post where I warn the REAL role-blocker not to get drawn into counter-claiming you is scummy I’d love to see you frame the scum motivation.

Why would scum discourage the possible coutner-claim? They would want it so they can eliminate another damaging Town PR. Derp.

As to the rest of your post where you ask to live and be role-blocked – no thanks … you are scum and need to die. The added bonus is that you dying halves the scum driven NKs and also frees the Role-blocker up to actually block kills as opposed to just banging against your 1 shot protection from being role-blocked …

Just hang.

--

vig DRK/DH tonight. haven't decided yet.

Given that DRK was the number one driving force behind wagonning someone other than Friend (who had claimed VT already) or Lane (who had been in jeopardy due to his play) and the result was Xalxe’s being outed and killed I think DRK would be a great choice. Especially since he’s more worried about asking about cupcakes than actually scum-hunting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

what do you think of friend though? is he really VT?

I still feel he could be scum. He’s lurking and hasn’t made anything close to a case about anyone at all.

--

I was the main proponent at deadline of trying to get Friend lynched (who had claimed VT already) over lane (WHO WAS FUCKING OBV-TOWN YOU HAD TO BE A COMPLETE IDIOT TO THINK HE COULD POSSIBLY FLIP SCUM).

Really? Let’s check the vote record. Here’s your votes for the day in regards to Xalxe / Friend.

461– Xalxe
462– Andrew
470– Xalxe
514 – Friend

Xalxe claimed Dietician at 494 thanks in part to your vote at ISO 461 / 470. Which is BEFORE YOUR FIRST FUCKING VOTE FOR FRIEND.

So don’t play the “I was the push behind Friend” when you didn’t vote for him until Xalxe claimed.

Friend was the leading lynch at Mod Vote-Count ISOs 20, 21, and 23? You vote was floundering on No Lynch in that time frame. Yet suddenly you are part of the Xalxe wagon that derails Friend and causes a bad claim.

So AGAIN, you didn’t push Friend’s lynch AT ALL until after you had tried to wagon Xalxe. After Friend had claimed VT at 429.

So don’t think you can scream FUCKING REVISIONIST HISTORY at me when you don’t have the facts on your side.

Shoot DRK …

[MagnaofIllusion]

Actually, maybe MoI IS scum....it would certainly explain how he could possibly think lane was scum day 1 and why he's making such a crap argument for me to be vigged. -_-

Lol ... I can turn this around also.

I can't see how you could possibly thing Xalxe was scum Day 1 he SCREAMED Town.

Nice fucking try.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lolno. You thought Xalxe was scummy. I called lane town ON PAGE 2 and never once backed down from that read. Every single thing lane did day 1 screamed town.

You know who is more likely to call scummy playing Town as such early? Scum. Because THEY FUCKING KNOW WHO IS THEIR PARTNER. Yeah, easy to call someone under fire Town when you know they only have a 1 in 10 chance of being the Serial Killer.

But to correct you I called Xalxe a lurker. Did I say all the people on the lurkers list were scum? Nope nice try. I said there was AT LEAST 1 in there. Hey look, I was absolutely right since we know Singer is scum. If I called him scummy like Lane and Friend I would have pushed him. As I did both of them. And will you tomorrow if you don't get killed.

Try to spin this however you want – you were instrumental in causing a Dietician claim form Xalxe as opposed to pushing Friend as you CLAIMED to do.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Except lane wasn't even REMOTELY scummy. His play screamed town at the top of its lungs all day and you had your fingers in your ears, screaming repeatedly, "I'M NOT LISTENING, I'M NOT LISTENING, I'M NOT LISTENING"

Wow, lovely use of rhetoric. Lane played scummy and was an acceptable lynch. Feel free to keep screaming he was Pro-Town as much as you want. Doesn’t make you correct.

Let's do some MATHEMAGIC ….

Followed by meaningless statistics

Lulz. When players lurk scum are going to take advantage of that. Fact. I’d expect you to know this but at this stage I think you are scum arguing just to argue.

So listing players who are potential scum via lurking doesn’t in the slightest mean their behavior in thread when they are here (however limited) is scummy.

Xalxe was far from scummy. Your ‘case’ on him revolved around something stupid about scum-chat. Not compelling at all. But it's hard to build an actual case when you know someone isn't scum, isn't it?

And again, I mistook you for pointing out something meaningful. I pushed the Friend lynch at deadline. You were actually accusing me of going after someone I found scummy and you found more likely than average to be scum, since apparently I'm not allowed to use the word "scummy" to describe that in your case.

Actually … I’m accusing you of fake-scum hunting in an effort to find Town PR claims. Which you succeeded at. Bravo, job well done.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I spent most of day 1 telling you to stop tunneling him.

It’s as if I didn’t spend my time pointing out how scummy Friend was and ignored him completely. Oh wait, that didn’t happen

You were claiming that that group had a higher than average likelihood to be scum. You were therefore claiming they were scummy. You can hide behind all the bullshit you want about "oh, they were lurking, therefore I couldn't possibly know their alignments!" You're accusing me of going after someone you listed as scummy. End of story.

Lulz. Just Lulz.

Scum are going to TAKE ADVANTAGE of Town lurkers by lurking themselves, when the chance arises. Because you can’t Lynch All Lurkers when too many are doing so. Simple game theory. Why you are spending time trying to say it’s not is beyond me.

OMG. DUDE, DO YOU KNOW HOW AWFUL I AM AS SCUM AT FINDING POWER ROLES?

WIFOM Bomb away ……

Thanks for the useless self-meta.

Wow, you're really bad at this, dude. "But it's hard to build an actual case when you know someone isn't scum, isn't it?"

Oh, this isn’t building a case. This is just bantering and watching you flail after I identified your play as scumtastic.

When I actually sit down to build a case you will see it. I make them so they actually have content that’s coherent and makes sense … as opposed to “DERP, it’s Gut”

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Singer re 649

– Lulz. I see you completely dodged my question when I challenged you to provide scum motivation to request a Town Roleblocker not get drawn out by your only logical fake-claim that might save you. Good work there

I WOULD advise the town to keep questioning DH, though. It might help if he responds before the day ends so that way he can't be coached by his scum partner at night. Just a thought.

Yes, you’ve been very engaged in the thread. DERP. This proves it once more since the Open Roles state that scum have Daychat. You know, something discussed in thread before.

Continue the low quality fear mongering on the way to the noose. It’s cute.

So emotional. *tsk*tsk*

See, now I know you are making crap up on the fly. Because Town has ever right to get emotional when presented with bullshit? Right?

Because you were so emotionally flustered as Town when accused in LOTR Mafia by scum. Yet when you are on the other side of the coin suddenly being emotional is a scum-tell.

Yeah, you aren’t helping out Town you are just making crap up. Not surprising since you are caught scum.

Someone hang the Mermaid. Things are starting to smell fishy around here

--

@Everyone not Singer / MoI / DRK

– I’d like to see your comments about DRK and my little discussion. Actually I really would like to see DH, Romanus, Andrew and Friend to comment. Tclaw has already commented and I know Chess will not bother.

--

and not the normal town response of lol I innocent

So you expect scum not to say “Don’t shoot me, I’m Town”? Lulz.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, who are your top 3 scumreads?

I’ll give you my full range of scum instead of limiting it to just 3.

Friend - As I pointed out yesterday Friend has done zero scum-hunting. After I called him on it and pressed for his lynch late yesterday he’s gone into deep hybrernation.

DRK – I’ve encapsulated some general thoughts in my back and forth.

Chesskid - Call it gut.

Romanus – He’s input is so low that it’s hard to have anything other than a slight scum read on him at this juncture.

That’s the quick and dirty.

--

SS EXPLICITLY SAID SHE WOULD

ITT we learn Chesskid is either incredibly naive or just stupid. Lulz. The Serial Killer, who has a Win Condition that is NOT TOWN, has said she will help us. Let’s trust her completely. DERP DERP DERP

there is nothign wrong with my plan
you dont have to be the hero gotham has man
you can be the hero gotham NEEDS

Before I ridicule you some more for having no clue what you are talking about let’s examine two paths – one where we let TS kill Singer and one where we don’t. We are going to be operating under ‘Worst Case Scenario’ assumptions here so no successful role-blocks are factored in.

We have 10 people alive right now.

Option 1 – We lynch Singer. The rest of the Days play out as follows –

9 Alive N2 – Mafia kills Twisted and Twisted kills someone.
7 Alive D3 – We lynch suspected Scum.
6 Alive N3 – Mafia kills Town.
5 Alive D4 – If Twisted hasn’t shot Scum N2 or we haven’t lynched scum we assume we are in LYLO right here.

Option 2 – We lynch someone else. The rest of the Days play out as follows –

9 Alive N2 – Singer kills someone, Mafia kills Twisted, Twisted kills Singer.
6 Alive D3 – We are in MYLO unless Singer killed scum or we lynched scum.

So under your plan unless we successfully lynch a Goon in Singer’s place or Singer shoots scum (which we will NOT know unless Twisted lives) we are in MYLO Day 3.

Lynching 100% correctly – which we are with Singer – gives us an additional day-phase to scum-hunt.

TL: DR Summary – Your plan makes no sense when viewed objectively. And from a pure gameplay standpoint you are advocating letting 100% confirmed scum live when lynching them halves the number of Anti-Town Nightkills. Yes, it’s a stupid plan.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I roleblocked DemonHybrid last night. It was some combination of PoE and a gut read from a quick skim of the thread, but I suppose the reasons aren't important,

considering scum won't be stupid enough to counterclaim me.

Unleash the WIFOM. Certainly if you are not the Role-blocker this isn’t an attempt to draw the Real Roleblocker out since you’d fear death as a Goon …

Oh, and just for the future (and I think you'll be needing this advice, though I highly doubt you'll take it), get your head out of your ass. Just because you're too incompetent to read someone (a.k.a. lane) doesn't mean that anyone else competent enough to read him is scum.

Lulz at the insults. Take your own advice – just because you are too incompetent to read someone (aka Xalxe) doesn’t mean that anyone else competent to read him is scum.

If you're town, your contributions so far this game have been

Similarly your contributions this game have been –

1. outing the Dietician, resulting in getting him killed N1. Yes, getting a Town PR as opposed to lynching a VT.
2. drowning the Town in pointless discussion about cupcakes and your personal game theory.

3. drowning the town in useless walls (yes, useless; most of what they do is ask useless questions)

I don't care how tall you are or think you are. If your horse is so high that you can no longer see us, your horse is too high. So get on off it. Please.

I included these together because the irony is funny. You should know about High Horses since you’ve been on yours all game regarding your superiority of play-style and reads.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And for the record this is exactly why having a LONG day today with 100% scum is a bad idea.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This...is bs. You never said Xalxe was town at all. And I said you were town, remember? Or did all that get lost in your ego somewhere?

1. I don't call Town reads Town. It's unproductive to give scum a clear indication who I absolutely will not support the lynch of. The fact that I didn't express any desire at all to vote or press Xalxe outside of knowing who his alt was (for potental meta purposes) is a pretty clear indication I had a Town read on him.
2. First you called me scum and then at one pointed ended with "You are stupid Town". Hardly something I find to be considered a serious post. I chocked it up to you wanting to be insulting. And if you did think I was Town then the post you just made about how I clearly must be scum is just fluff meant to be condescending. Very usefull ...

Huh? I'm pretty sure the only play style I've attacked is yours and that's because you seem to think you're some sort of god or something. I've never once said my play style was good.

I don't think I'm a God. At this juncture it should be obvious what I intended with the whole "I will catch you scum so you better kill me". It was a pure WIFOM bomb aimed at making the scum dither back and forth as to whether I was a PR and worth killing. If it increased the chances of drawning a NK as VT it was worth it. I'm obviously not the Vig, Dietician or Rolelblocker (since I would have immediatly CCed you). Of course this went out the window the second we got multiple Town PR claims Day 1 ....

But the fact remains you've spent your time discussing how useless my play-style is. The clear inference is that yours HAS to be better. Don't pretend otherwise.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI
You take the game so seriously Lighten up!

You take this game so haphazardly! Lighten down!!!

In all seriousness I hate statements like these (in both directions). I draw my enjoyment from Mafia in the way I play. As do you and as does everyone else. No-one is going to change how they feel.

In the interest of not taking the game too far off track, you never responded to (imo) the most important part of my claim post:

What do you think of that?

I had originally commented on it but deleted it because it was just furthering WIFOM.

I disagree with your premise about the SK having a preference to kill the Dietician based on the specific facts of our game. The Vig was outed so he was not going to get blocked. Thus, as happened, a claim by Twisted of a kill not going through is as good as a guilty in this case.

My only thought is that scum might have chosen the Dietician over the Vig if Twisted’s reads were far off. I’ll have to go back and review his suspicions but for that to be true it makes Friend ironically less likely to be scum. Because Twisted at one point late in the day said Friend was his target if he survived the Day.

Again, its WIFOM as to what actually happened.

[MagnaofIllusion]

but you can just kill the sk
and we get an extra lynch
>_>

No we don’t. Where the hell do you get this crap from?

719, which I know you didn’t bother to read, shows clearly that we DON’T get an extra lynch.

If we lynch Singer today we worst case get another lynch Day 3 before a theoretical LYLO on Day 4.

If we lynch someone else today we worst case (and likely have to treat it as such due to lack of NK flips) are in MYLO Day 3.

So we lynch Singer today, someone tomorrow and then may face LYLO or

We lynch someone else today and then likely face MYLO.

Yes … we lose a lynch under your plan. The lynch of 100% confirmed scum in Singer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

LYNCH SOMEONE ELSE TODAY (MISLYNCH NUMBER 1)
SS KILLS WHOEVER TS WAS GOING TO
TS KILLS SS
MAFIA KILLS SS
OH HEY WE GAINED A PERSON OVER THE ALTERNATIVE

Why in the hell are are the Mafia going to target SS? Pro-Tip - they aren't

DERP DERP DERP

Please don't try to outthink someone Chess ... you are woefully underarmed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll do this slowly for you Chess.

We are at 10 people.

If we lynch Singer we likely lose 2 players overnight. 7 player remain with 1 guaranteed scum down.

If we lynch someone else we likely lose 3 players overnight. 6 players remain with 0 guaranteed scum down.

It's not rocket science, chief.

[MagnaofIllusion]

oH WAIT
WHEN THE VIG SHOOTS THE SK FOR THE SECOND TIME
HOW IS THAT NOT 1 GUARANTEED SCUM DOWN?
DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

It's one fucking scum down due to lynch you idiot.

So we have either 7 or 6 players alive at the end of Night 2. Which is fucking better?

Pro-Tip - It is 7 players ... we get a free Day to scum-hunt and lynch.

The all-caps makes your stupidity come through crystal clear, BTW.

[MagnaofIllusion]

WITH THE 6 ALIVE
ITS ONE MORE MISLYNCH CANDIDATE OR SCUM DEAD

YOUC AN BE ALL LIKE 7 > 6
or you canrealize that to get to the same number of likelys cum dead we'd be at 5 people your way

tl;dr you stupid bro

Lulz.

If there are 6 people alive and we don't know for certain we have a dead Goon (and Pro-Tip once again we likely will not due to the nature of reveals unless we lynch correctly) we have to approach it as MYLO. Which means we either No-Lynch or risk losing on a mislynch.

If there are 7 people alive and we don't know for certain we have a dead Goon we can still lynch actively as we don't risk losing overnight.

You're advocating trading an 100% accuarate scum lynch in Singer for an unknown lynch in someone else and potentially shortening the game by a Day if Town is wrong.

If you can't see that maybe you should go back to Newbie games ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Uhhh.....summary for anyone that doesn't want to read the argument:

The two plans lead to the same number of possible suspects dead and the same number of useful flips. MoI's plan has the advantage of an extra day of discussion. chesskid's has the advantage of getting the useful flip a day earlier.

You may now continue your arguing.

Why do you have to be a kill-joy DRK

The useful flip a Day earlier is only useful if it is a Goon. Otherwise it isn't very informative.

[MagnaofIllusion]

my plan also has a much larger chance you can block the scum kill

Again ... where do you get this stuff?

It's almost as if you are trying to make up goofy crap that doesn't have any backing ...

Oh ... wait .. now I remember.

Carry-on then.

[MagnaofIllusion]

ONE SCUM DIES MY WAY WHILE THE SCUM HAVE TO KILL TEH VIG
THEN EVEN IF RBER DIES HE CLEARS WHOEVER OF ROMANUS/DH is still alive

Except, of course, if your reads are wrong. No thanks, I'd rather take the guarenteed scum death in Singer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

lynch dh
TS kills SS
SS kills romanus
mafia kills TS
DRK RBs random
seems reasonab le to me

You know what's even more reasonable and far less stupid?

Lynch SS
TS shoots Romanus or whoever he thinks is scum
Mafia kills whoever they target
DRK blocks whoever he thinks is scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP:

Yo, I'm here. I'll get around to readin the last 10 pages when I'm at home.

Welcome Ani.

Read the last 10 pages when you get home. Wait for offical replacement of Friend and confirmation of said replacement or for Friend to show up.

Then vote the confirmed Serial Killer SingerSinger.

That is all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI lived past D2 in a game I'm now in. IT'S A MIRACLE.

I did my best to make myself a viable target. Having 2 of 3 Town PRs outed Day 1 tends to cut down on Vanilla players as viable targets.

[MagnaofIllusion]

so wait, am I the only non claimed?

At this point claims are pretty useless unless you are going to direclty counter-claim a Town PR.

Twisted claimed Vig Day 1. He's claimed to shoot Singer who survived. Singer later copped to being the SK so Twisted is about as confirmed as you can get.

Xalxe claimed Dietician Day 1. His flip is of course obscured but we should get confirmation when we lynch Singer per the Mod.

DRK claimed Roleblocker today.

Yes ... you've replaced into a game with all Town PRs pre-outed ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

not this OH? have I CLAIMED YET? BECUASE IDK WHAT MY REPLACEMENT CLAIMED aND I DONT WANT TO GET CAUGHT IN A LIE

Because he certainly couldn't ISO his predecessor and quickly see if said person had claimed ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

ATTENTION ALL PLAYERS

–

If you are the real Vig or Roleblocker and have for some mindless reason chosen to let Twisted and DRK fake-claim without counter-claiming this is your FINAL chance.

I very much doubt this happened but the entire rest of my post revolves around them having claimed truthfully.

--

The DRK / Jackapole exchange based on DRK’s fail-memory is interesting. It will serve as food for thought when I get more time.

I’ll do a quick review of Tclaw’s ISO when I have time. Looking at the player list I’m fine with lynching / eating / blocking the following players in more or less any combination tonight

Animorph
Chesskid
Jakalope
Demon (simply based on DRK’s claimed N1 block which possibly did stop the kill)

--

how about the sk killing

Andrew is Town, unfortunately. Because this is exactly the kind of stupid post you get from bad Town players who are not paying close attention.

--

Apparently DRK hasn't played with me in forever and completley forgot my meta. From what I've been told, I tend to look fairly scummy.

KILL IT WITH FIRE

Invoking a “I always look scummy” meta excuse as a defense is just plain bad.

--

I'd like to live, thanks.

Why do you care if you are Town? Assuming DRK and Twisted aren’t taking us for a ride (which the chances of are so remote I’m not going to worry about) Town is in a VERY solid PoE position. You don’t get bonus points for ‘surviving’.

So much for perfect vig then eh?

Pure AtE.

--

the real scum could NK on a night when they don't think they'll be targeted to incriminate a townie

Scum needs body count at this point. If they choose to NK we can choose to lynch the person they are framing and have you No-kill yourself. It maintains the Town numbers and gives DRK another Night of RBing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

answered your fucking questiopn before you asked it

Sorry, the way you spam and all-caps it’s hard to find anything that might be content nestled inside the otherwise useless posts.

based on DH's reads, I dont want him as the deciding person at lylo

At this point I’d trust him over you. The only reason I think he should be shot is the potential for a N1 kill stop by DRK.

Also – 939 is an abominiation. It doesn’t make the point ANY MORE FUCKING VALID and just is a waste of thread space. It wass stupid when Fate originated it and it continues to be stupid when others use it.

--

I'm encouraged by the fact that magna suspects chess too

I haven’t dug into Tclaw yet to look for interactions but at this stage Chess is playing just as I expect Chess-scum to play when I am Town (or he thinks I am)… he’s deferring attacking me in any way. Plus, of course, the terribly stupid push to keep the Serial Killer around for an additional kill. The Goons were the only ones posed to benefit from that plan.

[MagnaofIllusion]

uh
chess-town doesn't attack magna-town either

Secret Fucking Invasion you Derp.

In other news, I forgot this

VOTE: Animorph

[MagnaofIllusion]

DRK is dead. Chesskid is clear unless DRK flaked which I doubt.

@Twisted

– Andrew? Really? I told you he was Town.

@Everyone Alive

– Who didn’t vote to accelerate Night? I’m curious. I did.

--

I did a review of Tclaw over-night. The upshot is that he completely ignores the Jackapole slot as far as suspicion goes. I do see some possible defense of that slot here –

If you are really who you say then why are you still on Friend? Why not switch to chesskid? The logic for a possible chesskid lynch coming from your viewpoint actually makes more sense. (basically chess can kill, I am vig Q.E.D. chess is scum. Your case against Friend: He doesn't back up his town reads and does them a lot.) Which case sounds more sound to you?

tl;dr: Friend wagon=fail

On a side note, I don't like Friend or Romanus right now. Especially Romanus.

The first quote is him encouraging someone to move from Friend to Chess (now known to be Town).

The second quote is his summary of the Friend wagon.

The third is very weak suspicion. Despite calling the Friend wagon fail the day before now he is suspicious of him. Just not as suspicious as he is of Romanus (now known to be Town).

His interactions with DH are similarly light with the exception of his last post –

I think it would be a good idea to get rid of DH (the roleblocker did block him), but we are not going to take a chance right now on it when we have a free confirmed lynch right now.

This is absolutely safe distancing right here. Singer was going to get lynched. He never voted for DH that I can see.

Summary

– I can see both as being partners. He does work to defend Friend Day 1 more when he was under fire. He puts very light suspicion on both DH and Friend Day 2.

If it were not for two factors I’d lean to hanging Jackalope.

1. DRK’s N1 block. That’s fairly powerful evidence in light of the fact that Twisted pushed Tclaw as a vig target Day 1. I don’t see scum as not taking that threat seriously.
2. Chesskid’s desire to not see DH in endgame can’t be overlooked. Either he or Twisted will be alive for possible endgame if we lynch wrong. I’d rather deal with DH today so there is no WIFOM paranoia if DH isn’t scum and Jackalope is.

FOS – DH.

I’m not voting for DH until Twisted shows up to confirm that he acknowledges the following –

Today we have 5 remaining players. Lynch gets us to four. We CANNOT stop the scum Nightkill if we lynch wrong.

Twisted

– I want you to acknowledge that you understand that Vigging wrong losses Town the game if we mislynch today.

It’s clear from my perspective that it is either DH or Jack. I’m not outright going to tell you not to shoot whichever one we don’t lynch but I want you to fully weigh the consequences.

[MagnaofIllusion]

How was that scummy? I just wanted to make sure we weren't being led by someone who could possibly be scum.

Twisted claimed Vig Day 1 before anyone was dead. He could not possibly have made it to this point as scum and we KNOW he wasn’t the Serial Killer. Trying to undermine Twisted’s Confirm Town status is scummy. He’s Town. No-one who is Town would possibly vote him the rest of the game. Same with Chesskid at this point.

Anyone who was Town and had read the thread would know this. You had all Night 3 to catch-up with the game.

Are you claiming you didn’t use the time given to read the thread?

--

Again, chesskid, do you still only have a meta case? I'd rather this not go to LyLo.

You know at this stage there is more on you than ‘just meta’. DRK’s claimed N1 block on you, given we now know Tclaw was scum, weighs heavily.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, wouldn't you, regardless of alignment want a jakalope lynch today knowing I'm likely to hammer DH instantly tomorrow?

If you're town, as you say, why wouldn't you want the jakalope hit today, as that guarantees a town wni?

Because, from my perspective, lynching both results in a Town win. It doesn't matter the order.

Now if I was Scum I'd certainly push for Jacklope to be killed over DH if I were to keep you around. Because you've said you'd at autohammer him.

In the end having DH around at endgame creates WIFOM paranoia that I'd rather not have.

That said there are no guarentees that you even make it to LYLO now. You and Twisted are both confirmed. One of you has to die. If lynching DH doesn't end the game Jack will kill whoever they think is most likely to side him over me at LYLO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, you keep saying you'd rather me dead (to get rid of supposed WIFOM) then Jakalope, but you only FoSed me. Why is that?

Did you bother to read the line that happened RIGHT AFTERWARDS? Reading FTL ...

I said I'd vote once Twisted showed up to confirm he understands the information I provided.

You have yet to explain how the Mafia might not be more worried about Twisted N1 given his and Tclaw's dust up late day. Anything you say about Xalxe's late claim is just WIFOM spinning and outguessing the situation.

We know DRK blocked you.
We know the Mafia kill did not appear. The reasoning why is unclear.

If I have to choose between two players who have equally suspect interactions with Tclaw I'm going with the one that was blocked N1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Twisted's proven he's an idiot recently
so I'm just going to pick before night and whoever dies is going to honor that >_>

If you can get Twisted to agree Godspeed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah, but what's wrong with a vote?

It's 5 alive, 3 to lynch. In the off chance you aren't scum it allows Jackelope scum to hammer before Twisted gets a chance to post in the thread. He's V/LA til the 18th.

I'd like for him to be fully aware of what is going on.

Your undermining attempts are noted. Keep up the good work.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Uh....if tclaw was mafia and there is one mafia left, then what scum would ever quickhammer in a non-LyLo situation?

You seriously think there will be a quickhammer?

I seriously don't care if the chance is only .000000000001%. There is a 0% chance if I simply FOS you.

What's your rush? You can't wait til Monday for Twisted to return to take the rope?

[MagnaofIllusion]

how do we know DRK did RB chesskid?

We can't for certain. We can only trust he wasn't stupid and didn't go back on his direct word that he was blocking Chesskid.

If he changed plans on us then he played directly against his win condition. I'm operating assuming he isn't stupid.

But now that you are here ...

VOTE: DemonHybrid

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sure hammer away ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

before I do so, since we only have confirmed townies in me and chesskid, is there anything else you want to say to remind me that you're as good as confirmed town and that I'd be mad to vig you?

You could start with the fact that I could have hammered you pre-claim with little consequence given you were at L-1 for several vote-counts.

Then consider my general play.

But if you really think I'm more likely than Jackelope / Friend to be scum then you do what you feel you need to do.

[MagnaofIllusion]

no. If you're town you wouldn't want me to vig you or else we would lose if DH flipped town :/

Who says I want to get shot? Fact is if you are going to shoot me (or for that fact anyone) tonight I can’t stop you. Assuming DH isn’t scum for the sake of this argument if you are shooting tonight then you are 100% willing to take the result of the game into your hands.

--

MoI: Had interaction with tclawren, but only asked him questions and seemed like he was coaching him over and over, making it seem like he's the good townish person to look up to. I think it's a ruse. Ever since the first couple of pages, he completely dropped the interaction with tclaw and focused on 1 on 1's with DRK. That was it. Barely focused on the singersigner lynch.

Please point out directly where you see coaching. I’d like for you to provide actual posts so I can properly refute you.

Barely focused on the SingerSinger lynch? That’s complete crap. I voted for her and spent the better part of the day arguing with Chess as to why NOT lynching her was stupid. Which I again was right about since DRK blocked Tclaw scum.

But since you are focusing on Tclaw interaction let’s review yours with that slot –

While still being joke votes, RVS votes are generally aimed to try to -end- the RVS stage. Since you're such a new player, I'm a bit split on the read I get from these posts so far, but there's a fine line between voting in a joking way but still trying to help, and voting in an unhelpful way. I'm just curious as to whether you're being genuine or not about it truly being a joke.

I need to know a little bit more about your experience. Tell me a little bit more about your history with mafia in general instead of mafiascum, since you don't have any completed games on site.

Speaking of softball interactions … fence-sitting on Tclaw’s joking behavior being scummy or because ‘he’s new’. After the fact, as I suspected, his “invalid joke vote” was scummy behavior.

ISO 3

– Further fence-sitting in explaining why Tclaw’s vote is a special case.

My point is that TC or anyone else couldn't have gotten any information from him voting Escho. I didn't say anything about anyone getting information from TC, so it's a different point altogether.

Moving away from any interest in TClaw as a scum suspect.

And that is EVERY post in your 4 page ISO that directly or indirectly mentions TClaw. So your attack on me is hypocritical since you are just as guilty of completely ignoring Tclaw.

[MagnaofIllusion]

^ Example of question that has no meaning.

^ Question that has no meaning. Why did you ask "When" and not "Why"? What does the When matter without the Why?

Question, but you didn't do anything with the info.

Yes, testing people with questions to get a reaction is meaningless

But let me ask … is Town not allowed to question players even if they aren’t their Top Suspect? I ask because TClaw wasn’t mine. Clearly I was wrong about that, but so was pretty much everyone else, including you. He fell behind Lane and Friend as obv suspect Day 1. Day 2 was lynching obv SK Singer. Tclaw was dead Day 3.

^ Coaching

Coaching.

I was wondering if you would actually take the bait.

Explain the scum motivation to Coach in thread in a GAME THAT HAS SCUM DAYTALK? There is none. All coaching would take place in QT. But thanks for attempting to so badly to find any sort of Wikitell you can.

I'm not denying that it looks like he and I have iffy relations as well, I'm just showing that you did, and moreso.

So you are able to easily pull twice as many posts where I actively questioned someone as your ENTIRE ISO interaction with Tclaw and my relations are more iffy? Lulz.

As for your discussion about singer on Day 2, sure, you talked about singer. Everyone talked about singer. The point is that the majority of the day is you arguing with DRK over nonsense and trying to look town.

Quite frankly .. so what? What point are you trying to make? That I didn’t waste posts like you arguing with confirmed scum Singer who was going to be lynched and instead hunted for more scum? I fully admit I did that.