Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[subgenius]

Cute dialogue

That's a nice script, but one thing I don't understand is why person 1 waited until the end to start (questionably) scum hunting instead of wasting person 2's time by speaking in twisted analogies and parables.

You expect me to believe that it's a coincidence that Magnetic guessed that there were two killing sources?

Why on earth does it matter at this point? I know you're trying to use this information to confirm the existence of an SK, but knowing the specifics of Magnetic's role is not going to do that. If you want 95% confirmation, all you have to do is look at the night kills. Tclawren makes absolutely no sense as a vig kill, so it must have been an SK. There, question answered. On the off chance I'm wrong, hooray, I have a pleasant surprise.

Vig or SK is completely irrelevant at this point, particularly because if we mislynch today, an SK would have nearly as much motivation to try to NK a mafia member as a vig would. Even if there is a vig, how is it going to change your play? It shouldn't at all. If you're town, either way you should be hunting scum.

The question of SK or vig concerns mafia more than it concerns town, and I'm pretty worried by the fact that you're still hung up on this issue. I consider it a scum tell both because I feel that it has become a substitute for meaningful scum hunting and because the information you're digging for is more important to mafia than it is to town.

[vollkan]

And are you really telling me that nobody here has made a post that goes beyond the point of reasonable argument?

Of course I don't think every single point is reasonable. My point is just that, for all the whinging about tunneling, the back-and-forth is still within normal levels.

That's a nice script, but one thing I don't understand is why person 1 waited until the end to start (questionably) scum hunting instead of wasting person 2's time by speaking in twisted analogies and parables.

^ This.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Going in order, the combination of the two quotes is not QUITE the same. Both are playing poorly. Both are almost too scummy to be believed. The only difference is that I can easily see the specific behavior behind Bgg's actions able to be a town playing badly, far more likely then I could see what Yura is doing being town playing badly. Speicifically I've SEEN people do the same things as Bgg and turn out scum. I've never really seen any play at all like Yura's, and am, notably, no longer taking him as suspect number 1. And, about sympathetically projecting my own history, it's not exclusively mine. I've seen enough other players to do it to feel a common, definite theme between all of those prior events, and Bgg's playstyle.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

And very like every time I've seen it before the person keeps digging themselves a deeper and deeper hole the whole time. Frustrating.

[yura-chi]

uhmm im getting confused so first of all what's tunneling???

[vollkan]

uhmm im getting confused so first of all what's tunneling???

The theory answer would be that it is where X starts continually attacking Y, by interpreting every single post Y makes in the scummiest way possible. It's called "tunneling" after the phrase "tunnel-vision".

However, it's very rare that such tunneling actually occurs. More often than not, when somebody is accused of "tunneling" it's just because Y or Z doesn't agree with X's attacks.

[Regfan]

Perhaps AtE isn't the right way to explain it, but adding !!!!! does nothing to benefit the town, nor do I see how it's 'legitimate or natural' considering it lays emphasis on a point without elaborating on what the point actually is.

[img]Elephant%20picture[/img]

I just posted a picture of an elephant. My doing so did nothing to benefit the town. Does that mean my elephant is a scumtell?

The point CKD was making was pretty damn obvious, considering he made it in the two lines directly above his !!!!!s

I also point out that saying "Perhaps AtE isn't the right way to explain it" is a massive understatement. The reasons you give above for it being scummy are pathetically flimsy and have nothing whatsoever to do with AtE. So, basically, this is a typical case of somebody misusing a boilerplate scumtell.

The fact you're attempting to compare !!!!! and the elephant picture is beyond mind boggling. Context is a highly important factor when looking at something and deciding whether it's a scum-tell, a null-tell or a town-tell, you know this much. Stating !!!!!!!!!! before and after pointing out something that someone else has done IS an attempt to add emphasis on it, there's no two ways about it. The attempt is one that detracts from logic and reasoning being what articulates your meaning and instead attempts to read it differently as to which they normally would. I'll give you an example:

Person 1: I'm not mafia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Person 1: I'm not mafia.

Those both can be read differently purely due to the !'s thus ! is not a null-tell. Another example would be:

Person 1: Look at my case, he's confirmed mafia and no one is following!!!!!!!
Person 1: Look at my case, he's confirmed mafia and no one is following.

Again both can be read differently. Heck, what's the difference between '!' and 'CAPSLOCK' invovled in a post, and capslock may not lead someone to be mafia or not, but it may make their post seem like angryobvtown, or caughtscum.

[Regfan]

Sorry for the double post. In regards to bgg1996/Sub/S_C's posts I'm going to need to re-read the thread some point tommorow I'll state my reads on them then.

[vollkan]

Perhaps AtE isn't the right way to explain it, but adding !!!!! does nothing to benefit the town, nor do I see how it's 'legitimate or natural' considering it lays emphasis on a point without elaborating on what the point actually is.

[img]Elephant%20picture[/img]

I just posted a picture of an elephant. My doing so did nothing to benefit the town. Does that mean my elephant is a scumtell?

The point CKD was making was pretty damn obvious, considering he made it in the two lines directly above his !!!!!s

I also point out that saying "Perhaps AtE isn't the right way to explain it" is a massive understatement. The reasons you give above for it being scummy are pathetically flimsy and have nothing whatsoever to do with AtE. So, basically, this is a typical case of somebody misusing a boilerplate scumtell.

The fact you're attempting to compare !!!!! and the elephant picture is beyond mind boggling. Context is a highly important factor when looking at something and deciding whether it's a scum-tell, a null-tell or a town-tell, you know this much. Stating !!!!!!!!!! before and after pointing out something that someone else has done IS an attempt to add emphasis on it, there's no two ways about it. The attempt is one that detracts from logic and reasoning being what articulates your meaning and instead attempts to read it differently as to which they normally would. I'll give you an example:

Person 1: I'm not mafia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Person 1: I'm not mafia.

Those both can be read differently purely due to the !'s thus ! is not a null-tell. Another example would be:

Person 1: Look at my case, he's confirmed mafia and no one is following!!!!!!!
Person 1: Look at my case, he's confirmed mafia and no one is following.

Again both can be read differently. Heck, what's the difference between '!' and 'CAPSLOCK' invovled in a post, and capslock may not lead someone to be mafia or not, but it may make their post seem like angryobvtown, or caughtscum.

There were two elements to your attack on CKD:
1) Does not benefit town; and
2) Lays emphasis without elaborating

On 1), I posted the elephant to show that there are plenty of things that have no benefit to the town - that doesn't make them scummy

On 2), see my second sentence - his point was obvious.

Also this is a game all about persuasion, and you can't seriously think that doing something like !!!!! for rhetorical emphasis is unacceptable. Yura's vote was patently terrible and CKD was clearly annoyed by it. If he wanted other people to recognise this, why shouldn't he post exclamation marks?

(seriously, between bgg trying to argue that "the people who" is fundamentally different from "whoever" and you trying to argue that rhetorical emphasis is a scumtell, I think I am going to go insane)

[Regfan]

1) Does not benefit town; and
On 1), I posted the elephant to show that there are plenty of things that have no benefit to the town - that doesn't make them scummy

/Headesk.
Seriously.
/Headesk.

It's impossible to compare posting something with the sole intention of proving a point, which is what the elephant is. (You posted it, not to help, not to hurt, not to seem like you're helping thus it has no meaning) and posting filler posts all which have no benefit to town while attempting to seem as if you're 'helping' (Which is what I read from CKD's posts).

2) Lays emphasis without elaborating
On 2), see my second sentence - his point was obvious.

His point was this:

This just feels like a bullshit case job (lets get another quick mislynch)…..so I am scummy, because I thought you a vote from vollkan against you was bad?...explain.

Explain how his point is 'obvious here', he's saying, your case is bad because it's bad.

[vollkan]

/Headesk.
Seriously.
/Headesk.

It's impossible to compare posting something with the sole intention of proving a point, which is what the elephant is. (You posted it, not to help, not to hurt, not to seem like you're helping thus it has no meaning) and posting filler posts all which have no benefit to town while attempting to seem as if you're 'helping' (Which is what I read from CKD's posts).

You first attacked CKD here because his !!!!s did "nothing to benefit the town". My point is that the mere fact that something doesn't benefit the town doesn't make it scummy (posting the elephant is an aburdist way of making this point)

Further, as I point out in the previous sentence, your attack on CKD there was because the !!!!s did not benefit the town. Now, however, you seem more to be arguing that his posting as a whole was merely filler designed to look like content - which is a completely different accusation

His point was this:

This just feels like a bullshit case job (lets get another quick mislynch)…..so I am scummy, because I thought you a vote from vollkan against you was bad?...explain.

Explain how his point is 'obvious here', he's saying, your case is bad because it's bad.

In original context, he said:

VOTE: CuriousKarmaDog
I suggest this because after looking back at everyones post, when everyone started to claim me as possible or actually scum ckd sided with me so i'm assuming

WTF?

This just feels like a bullshit case job (lets get another quick mislynch)…..so I am scummy, because I thought you a vote from vollkan against you was bad?...explain.

!!!!!!!!!this vote makes just as little sense as regfan…please someone else see this!!!!!!!!!!!

Yura's vote is just terrible. CKD really shouldn't need to give a detailed considered rebuttal of it; Yura's vote is just BS.

It's perfectly fine for CKD to draw attention to this, as he has done with his !!!! marks.

[Regfan]

There were two elements to your attack on CKD:
1) Does not benefit town; and
2) Lays emphasis without elaborating

I read this as. 1) Refering to the rest of my case, and 2) Refering to the !!!!. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[vollkan]

There were two elements to your attack on CKD:
1) Does not benefit town; and
2) Lays emphasis without elaborating

I read this as. 1) Refering to the rest of my case, and 2) Refering to the !!!!. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1) is in response to

but adding !!!!! does nothing to benefit the town,

2) is in response to:

nor do I see how it's 'legitimate or natural' considering it lays emphasis on a point without elaborating on what the point actually is.

[Regfan]

Ah, I see. I assumed your 1) was in refrence to my entire case as a whole and that you were attempting to use the picture of the elephant to draw similarity with me saying he hasn't done anything to add benefit.

In that case, I can slightly see what you mean, but saw his "This just feels like a bullshit case job (lets get another quick mislynch)" as completly directed at the case I made, not the Yura line, I'd like for him to clarify what it's reference is to.

[Truant]

Holy shit guys. Yay for stuff to try to catch up on.

@Vollkan:

I'm voting for Yura right now as

my vote is useless if it's not used

, and it's

based on what I believe to be the best hard evidence so far in the game

. Also, as an overall meta standpoint that I firmly believe in: if we punish scum for making "optimal" decisions (killing those who are a threat to them) by analyzing every NK for motivation, then we can force them into making suboptimal decisions because they don't want to get outed. Therefore, by forcing them into making suboptimal decisions we can gain a slight advantage resulting more often in a town win.

1) Your vote being useless if not used is not a reason for voting

Yura

rather than anybody else
2) What hard evidence? You've dismissed the arguments I've been making against Yura
3) I don't even understand the 'optimal ' decisions part of this...

Truant+5

contingent on response

1) Votes are useless if they're not being used. Period. They don't express where your suspicions lie, they don't put pressure and they don't lynch who the hell you want to lynch.
2) Hard evidence = night kills. Who whomever has killing roles is hard evidence that can't be falsified. Almost everything else in the game is subject to opinion and how you read what they wrote where you know the mafia/sk killed for a reason. I also believe that it's easier to pin down one person's motivations than a group so I decided to analyze the SK's decision over the mafia's decision first when I had little time to analyze everything the way I would like to.
3) Everyone in mafia plays to win. Non-town try to ensure their survival while town are fine dying if they can catch scum. Therefore, scum generally get rid of threats to them if and when they think that they can get away with it. SKs fall into this even moreso than mafias cause they don't have anyone but themselves to rely on so they're more likely to kill off direct threats. Therefore, when I saw that TCL was stabbed, I analyzed who he was suspicious of to see if I could get a bead on the SK.

More later, gotta go to church.

[Maxous]

Okay while I was away there has been a lot of discussion. I am going to split the content into seperate posts rather than one single post to hopefully make it easier for people to respond and reference to later if needed.
In the first one here I'll simply answer the two question directed to me.

That being said Subgenius comment has made me have a bit of a rethink.

Could you explain this?

I was referring to this comment. You might be onto to something there.

In fact, if we're going to analyze the magnetic wagon, I think it would be just as useful to argue that since

it's unlikely that every scum player would have joined the lynch, either you, Regfan, or CKD is probably scum.

I have a strong suspicion that it's you.

__________
_________

That being said Subgenius comment has made me have a bit of a rethink.
SC, what do you think of CKD's and Regfan's posts trying to question Magnetic about 'why he claimed and why did you do this?' etc. after his credibiltiy had been shot.

fuck SC, what do you think about it?

I think it's reasonable to suspect that at least one of the three of you delibratly started asking Magnetic questions about why he claimed like that in the knowledge that he was town to not look like bandwagoning, and to attempt to gain town points by not lynching the townsperson. The possibility is worth exploring anyway IMO.
Something like this for example

...why me out of everyone who is left?...I wasnt on the fucking townie lynch.

[subgenius]

Today:

I also believe that it's easier to pin down one person's motivations than a group so I decided to analyze the SK's decision over the mafia's decision first when I had little time to analyze everything the way I would like to.

Friday:

I analyzed the SK first to see if there was a good start on eliminating an anti-town NK right off the bat.

It appears that your reason for focusing on the SK rather than the mafia have changed over the last day. I also notice that you offered justification for not investigating the mafia even though Vollkan never asked for any, perhaps because you've realized that omitting an analysis of the mafia kill was a slip.

[Maxous]

Part deux: Andrew94 and SC

. and also at the end where he listed everyone as likely town.
and thus u hammered and you were WRONG. BUT U CONTINUED TO START THE DAY WITH A LEAD (PROB FAIL COS UR SCUM)

@Andrew94: Are you implying you would'nt of hammered Magnetic in that situation?

Andrew, you need to give your opinions on everything.

bgg1996 is oppourtunistic in attempting to lynch me. where have i said i refuse to post my opinions.

You have not said that until now.
Please reconsider. This is completely anti-town, and I will vote for you for it.

These 2 posts are your reaction to walls of text

Hmm, fair enough. I didn't really think it needed adressing, since I had given my justification afterwards, but if it helps: What is everybodies opinion on the D1 lynch?

On the flip side, what is everyone's opinion on Andrew's tunnel visioning and lack of content? Just so nobody call call 'omgus' on me later, I'd like to know a broader group of opinions.

1) Unavoidable
2) I'm willing to cut him slack provided he participates a bit more in the near future.

@ surprise, you my friend, had no case against me.
so far as i saw, your case started when i made a case on you. you said that i had 4 posts (a deflection). and wheres the actual case against me?

This looks plausible when combined with this post
SC's case against Andrew was in reaction to suspicion placed on him and he looked to attempt to discredit the suspicion by referring to Andrew's post count.

Referring to posts 325 and post 328.
SC - "absolutely everything that has gone on this game so far that you've ignored." does not equal giving somebody a list of things to talk about.
______________________
______________________

I do not agree with SC's case against Andrew. Andrew made a reasonable point about the possibility of SC deflecting and SC reacted by making a case against Andrew due to lurking. I don't remember SC mentioning Andrew before that.
This is not to say I agree with Andrew about SC being mafia. I'm still leaning town with SC for now.

I agree that Andrew could contribute more and therefore:
@Andrew94: I would like to know your suspects for mafia apart from SC

[Maxous]

Quick question before I continue:

Of course now I have to find somebody else to suspect.

Have you dropped your suspicions of SC and Subgenius?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

In fairness, Maxous, I did, in fact, give him a short list of things, you just didn't quote the post in which I did. I'm waiting on his opinions, which he promised today, but I'm finding a disturbing pattern of "I'll tell you tomorrow"

[subgenius]

Have you dropped your suspicions of SC and Subgenius?

But don't you see? Bgg didn't think SC and I were suspicious, he just thought we had done suspicious things.

I would define a suspicious action as one that would cause an observer to become suspicious of an individual who performed such an action, but bgg1996 appears to have a more nuanced understanding of the word.

I will say that I don't understand why Andrew not posting for a day means new suspects have to be found. I will also say that he has not seemed to put a lot of effort into finding anybody else to suspect. Instead he's continuing to badger the mod for set up clues and to seemingly go out of his way to avoid clarifying his earlier comment about suspecting those who voted for magnetic in clear terms. If anybody still doesn't understand what bgg1996 was saying when he voiced suspicion for those who voted for magnetic after he issued his warning, please tell me. I would be happy to explain it in the interest of not seeing bgg1996 write another crappy analogy to explain an idea that could easily be explained in a simple sentence.

[Maxous]

I plan on doing an ISO on CuriousKarmaDog, should be up within a few hours.

this comes out of fucking NO WHERE...this reeks of someone(s) thinking I am a threat and being directed to start pushing something on me...why me out of everyone who is left?...I wasnt on the fucking townie lynch....I know he has a "case" later...so I will wait till then.

1) "this comes out of fucking nowhere" - seems to be an attempt to discredit the case because he did'nt properly breadcrum it or something? Why should he of?
2) "Thinking I am a threat" - Seems like another attempt to discredit suspicions over nothing. A threat due to what?
3) "I was'nt on the fucking townie lynch" - Because I did'nt vote for Magnetic I should'nt be suspected.

So he posts the above on 3:22, and posts the below at 3:45…so it is fucking obvious he went into my “ISO” with the plan of painting me as scum

Yes he did, because he suspects you, which is why he brought it up in the first place.
_________

I did'nt really think Regfan had a good case from the start, and CKD simply pointed out why.
_______________

why would I help you?...as scum, why would "help you"? The only reason as scum I would defend (not help) you was because I thought you were going to be lynched and wanted to buy some town cred. but that is not what I doing...at all....my comment about it being a bad vote was more of an expression of doubt about vollkan’s alignment.

@CKD: What do you think of Vollkan's continued pursuit of Yura?

Vollkan. Take a step back, for your own sake. I had to back in D1 when I was tunneling on Reg without realizing it. You can't take apart everything a person says without eventually coming up with whatever it was you wanted to find anyway

interesting statement, did you call Reg out for this when he did this earlier in this day?

@CKD: What are you trying to imply with this statement?
__________________
___________________
I don't particulary agree with the points Regfan brought up gainst CKD but CKD's reaction does'nt come across very town-like. Instead of simply explaining himself he instead opts instead to attack and discredit Regfan and at the end votes for him.
I'm unsure here

I did'nt see scumtells in Regfan's response even though Vollkan was correct in pointing out the comment about "!!!!!!!!!".
That point looked like streching to make a case stick, but town tend to do this as well as mafia
______________________________
_______________________________

@SC: Which post? I apologise if I have missed it.

[bgg1996]

but I'm finding a disturbing

pattern

of "I'll tell you tomorrow"

He has only ever said anything resembling "I'll tell you tommorrow" once. That's hardly a pattern.


One gold star for the beginning part of subgenius's new post.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Alright, since you are stupid on TOP of being scum...

mafia edit:

on which particular things

Try...absolutely everything that has gone on this game so far that you've ignored. From the RQS thing early on that you haven't said a thing about, on to the magnetic thing which you almost entirely ignored, or maybe any of the debates so far that you've said nothing about. Your 'case' against me is the most content we've gotten from you all game, and I'll be damned if it's of any quality at all.

Here. Right here. I gave you a list of possible things you might have had opinions about, but which you said nothing to. You have done nothing but occasionally take a pot shot at me. Even with Bgg coming under heavy fire, you have been suspiciously quiet. You could give us on opinion on that, for example! What do you think about Bgg's various accusations? What do you think about CKD's lurking, or Regfan being all shepherd-ie. SAY SOMETHING THAT MATTERS.

Here, I gave him a short list of matters which I'd like his opinion on. It doesn't encompass EVERYTHING, and some things aren't exactly relevant anymore, but he didn't give opinions on them when they WERE relevant.

And to Bgg, I suppose he has only said so once, but his history of posting once a day and saying nothing makes me disbelieve his 'tomorrow' claim.

[Maxous]

That post you quoted was

after

this post when you voted for him and accused him of nothing answering the good long list

Alright, that's it

unvote. Vote: Andrew94

I gave you a good, long list of things you could give some opinion or another about,

and then you come in here and strawman(correct usage. Answer a different, but superficially similar question to the one asked) your way into self-righteousness. And I always keep an eye on lurkers, they just happen to get my attention when they start flimsy, pointless cases, against me or not. And you haven't SAID you refuse to post your opinions. You just HAVE failed to post your opinions.