Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[Ythan]

Vordark, if you still believe DarthYoshi to be scum can you please summarize a case?

[Ythan]

As a matter of fact,

FoS Vordark

.

An awesome summary on DY will sort that right out.

[Vordark]

The main points against DY are below. If you are looking for specific instances/quotes check what I've already written in my ISO. There are a couple of posts that contain numerous quotes with point by point commentary.

1. His first vote was against CS for his "sketch" vote against Umbrage. CS's vote there was a null read at worst.

2. He's one of the main proponents (along with Umbrage) of the "SE is defending CS" nonsense. I've already established why this is bullshit.

3. Much of his early posts were involving himself in the Krazy/Ythan dispute and I see a lot of what I consider to be egging Krazy on. That he involved himself so readily in a dispute that didn't directly pertain to him stood out. Keeping people distracted, buddying and looking like you're posting content when you actually aren't are all viable motives for this.

4. He has contradicted himself, claiming that looking for relationships between players before flips is "junk science", while at the same time pushing the idea that CS and SE must be working together.

5. I brought these points up in my posts, along with quotes and details of my reasoning. When DY responded, he repeatedly claimed I didn't give my reasons or explain my thinking. He has written this many, many times and every time it has been wrong. I pointed this out as lying.

6. He used strawman arguments repeatedly. That is, I would accuse him of doing X, he would say "No, I'm not doing Y".

7. DY has not ever given me a satisfactory answer to my questions. Rather, he has used fallacious reasoning or misrepresented my statements, sometimes deliberately mis-quoting what I have written. Again, go through any of the relevant posts in my ISO. I believe I have provided enough examples.

8. Among the "unsatisfactory" answers DY is given is an argument that amounts to nothing more than "I wouldn't do what you are saying because I'm town".

9. Other things I deemed "unsatisfactory" are thinly-veiled ad hominem attacks and attempting to throw suspicion back onto me.

Again, these are what I'd call the main points against DY.

Vote: DarthYoshi

I need to re-read the thread in light of the flips. I am still satisfied with a DY lynch today.

[Ythan]

1 Null

at worst

? Then what do you think it was specifically?
2 Don't act like you've

established

anything or we'd have a lynch by now.
3 Do you have a reason to say he was distracting or buddying besides the fact that he is neither me nor Krazy?
4 I don't think this is true, is it?
5 So far today I have not read your iso but I have read his, which contains a great deal of your text. I'll reread yours today, and possibly his again with this specific point in mind, to see if I might have missed it.
6 I remember seeing you use that term at least once and I did not agree with the use, but I will keep this in mind on rereading.
7 I really don't think a statement this broad is valid.
8 Add this to the list of things I don't remember seeing but will keep an eye out for.
9 I don't recall ad hominem. Attacking you, sure.

I'm hoping that you'll keep your cool a little better discussing this with a third party.

[Umbrage]

What the fuck?

OK, first off: FLIPS ARE IMPORTANT. They are our only source of reliable information other than our role PMs. When different players are confirmed scum or town, it has to affect the way the thread is viewed.

"BUT UMBRAGE, THE MAFIA ARE CAREFUL NOT TO MAKE ANY CONNECTIONS BETWEEN EACH OTHER!11"

No scum team is perfect. They will treat their partners differently from how they treat townies. They can't help it. It's the way the human brain works.

Secondly, we are headed for a repeat of day 1. Everyone so far has simply posted their suspects from day 1. Krazy thinks Ythan is scummy. Ythan thinks I'm scummy. Vordark thinks DarthYoshi is scummy. It's the exact same fucking thing.

Everyone needs to re-read with the flips in mind. Only then can we all get a clear picture of the dynamics in the game.

Wow, alright a lot happened in that night. I'm going to need to re-read Quaroths lines later. I've got to do a few massive catch-ups in other games today but should have a post up by tommorow afternoon. I've got a few questions for everyone to answer while I catch up:

1) Do you think Iamusername hid behind mafia or vig?
2) Does Quaroths scumflip make you think anyone is more lilely to be town/mafia?
3) Who's your largest suspect as of now?

1) This question is bullshit. Either he hid behind one of the dead players, or he hid behind someone who's still alive. Which means that either the mafia are in the clear, or they are totally screwed. So there's no point to having everyone speculate on this. The mafia are either done for or safe.
2) Now this question is a good one. I'll get to it when I finish re-reading.
3) Undecided.

[Vordark]

1 Null

at worst

? Then what do you think it was specifically?

There are a set of possibilities, of which "sketch" is not a member. Of the members of that set, I viewed it as an attempt to get us out of RVS.

2 Don't act like you've

established

anything or we'd have a lynch by now.

I have established it to my satisfaction in post #262.

3 Do you have a reason to say he was distracting or buddying besides the fact that he is neither me nor Krazy?

I have expressed possible scum motives for observed behavior. You are asking me if those motives exist if we ignore the behavior. That is nonsensical.

4 I don't think this is true, is it?

Yes. Here is one example:

Snake Eyes defends Conspiracy:

I don't understand why you would immediately assume ConSpiracy had some ulterior motives, as asking questions in early game can only help move the game forward.

Snake Eyes sez:

Not so much defending Conspiracy.

Um, right.

Snake Eyes:

The whole idea of a premature bandwagon is a fallacy.

How so?

More Snake Eyes:

There's definitely an unnatural player relation there, and should Umbrage flip scum, I'd start looking for his scumbuddies in xtoxm

Hunting for scumpairs before there have been any flips is junk science.

Also, why do you have a town read on Conspiracy?

This post is longer, so I'll take it in chunks here and below. The first part is DY's case that SE is defending CS. Two quotes and an "Um, right". Again, not a defense. The "Hunting for scumpairs before there have been any flips is junk science" comment is strange as well. SE is talking about what happens "should Umbrage flip scum". It is also natural, and necessary, to look for relationships between the players as early as possible. All in all, it's a suspicious sentence.

5 So far today I have not read your iso but I have read his, which contains a great deal of your text. I'll reread yours today, and possibly his again with this specific point in mind, to see if I might have missed it.
6 I remember seeing you use that term at least once and I did not agree with the use, but I will keep this in mind on rereading.
7 I really don't think a statement this broad is valid.
8 Add this to the list of things I don't remember seeing but will keep an eye out for.
9 I don't recall ad hominem. Attacking you, sure.

I believe post #291 covers all of this suitably.

I'm hoping that you'll keep your cool a little better discussing this with a third party.

I am perfectly even-tempered. Why do you believe I have not been?

[Vordark]

Vordark thinks DarthYoshi is scummy.

To be clear, I will be re-reading the thread later today and posting more tonight. I have not seen anything that negates the points I have brought up concerning DY at this time.

[Snake Eyes]

So yes, if the Hider Tracker tracked Iamausername to anyone other than Quaroth or CS last night, they need to out because that would be confirmed scum.

Correct. They no longer have any power and their only use beyond that of a vanilla townie now is in any information they gained last night and the fact that they have a unique role to claim. If you, hider tracker, did track the hider to one of the dead killers last night, don't claim yet. You'll just be killed tonight as confirmed town.

Quoted just to be sure the HT sees this.


Now that we have a scum flip, I'll try to reread the game as soon as I find some time. Next week is going to be pretty busy, but I'll try to see to it. My initial impression however is that Umbrage is pretty unlikely to be Q's scumbuddy(and therefore town). Quaroath was attacking Umbrage a lot on day 1, and his ISO16 looks a lot like setting up Umbrage for tomorrow's (mis)lynch.

Unfortunately Quaroath didn't take a lot of solid stances on people other than Umbrage and xtoxm, so nobody really stands out as likely scumbuddy from a ISO skim. So I'll VOTE: DarthYoshi for now, who still stands out as scummy from yesterday, and I see nothing in either DY's or Q's ISO that would heavily discourage such a scumpair.

Also,

V/LA 1/4 - 3/4

. Going to move next weekend, so if I don't post by Tuesday, there's probably some problem with internet access and mod should start looking for a replacement.

[Umbrage]

Honestly, my impression of Vordark/DarthYoshi is town on town. But I'll read it again to make sure.

Both DY and AC need to get their asses in here. If neither of them claims HT, then iam must've hid behind either CS or Q, and we have no more info.

Question: Should the hider tracker claim today even if there is no information on scum? That will give us a confirmed townie for today, and give scum the WIFOM option of either trying to kill the last PR or the confirmed VT. If we wait, there's a chance the HT would be killed and we'll lose our chance at a lynch with confirmed town. Thoughts?

[Krazy]

Question: Should the hider tracker claim today even if there is no information on scum? That will give us a confirmed townie for today, and give scum the WIFOM option of either trying to kill the last PR or the confirmed VT. If we wait, there's a chance the HT would be killed and we'll lose our chance at a lynch with confirmed town. Thoughts?

Any remaining power-roles should claim if pushed to L-1 and there is any likelihood there will be a hammer. We can afford a mislynch today, but not a mislynch on a power/unique role. That is the only reason the hunter tracker should claim today if he did not track Iaaun to someone other than Q or CS.

[Umbrage]

But if the HT claims, then not only will be have a confirmed townie for today's lynch, but the HT will be likely be targeted for the night kill, meaning that the Psych/Det is guaranteed safe another night. If the scum kill someone else, then we have a confirmed townie for tomorrow as well.

Whereas if the HT doesn't claim, it could be killed tonight, and we'd lose the chance to have a confirmed townie.

Since the HT now has no powers, I don't see the harm in sacrificing. We gain a confirmed townie for today, and lose nobody important tonight.

[Vordark]

But if the HT claims, then not only will be have a confirmed townie for today's lynch, but the HT will be likely be targeted for the night kill, meaning that the Psych/Det is guaranteed safe another night. If the scum kill someone else, then we have a confirmed townie for tomorrow as well.

I don't understand why the HT would be targeted for an NK. With the hider dead, the HT is a VT for all practical purposes. By targeting them they reduce the chance of hitting a PR to zero.

I think the HT should claim if he has a name that isn't among the dead. I think the HT should

not

claim otherwise. Keeping the HT in the pool means

less

of a chance of the Mafia hitting a PR tonight.

[Krazy]

Secondly, we are headed for a repeat of day 1. Everyone so far has simply posted their suspects from day 1. Krazy thinks Ythan is scummy. Ythan thinks I'm scummy. Vordark thinks DarthYoshi is scummy. It's the exact same fucking thing.

This isn't the same at all Umbrage. After Q's flip, Ythan's suspicion of you either implies Q spent nearly the entire day yesterday busing--on day one--or Ythan's suspicion of you is completely unfounded and doesn't make any sense at all. Meanwhile, my suspicion of Ythan, instead of, "why are you acting so different?" is now "why is Ythan acting so different, and why did Quaroth only interact with him insofar as he was willing to snipe at me for blitzing him?"

There's only so many interactions Q had yesterday:

-Insisted on being town, almost unquestioningly: DarthYoshi
-Implying people are either logical/smart or obvtown. These players were: Vordark, AbelCain, and CS. Although Q had very minor disagreements with V and AC, he eventually "saw their point" or something or thought their comments were "fair and deserved."
-Starting out implying people were logical/smart or obtown but then pointing out WIFOM in their points: Snake Eyes
-Sniped at occasionally and emphasized the "player dispute" nature of: Me.
-Spent nearly the entire day trying to get lynched and at the end planted the seeds for a lynch today: Umbrage
-Knew was going to flip town and didn't want to be associated with a town-flip lynch if he could avoid it: Xtoxm.
-Only interacted with insofar as he disliked the idea for a mass-claim: Regfan. (This ended up getting him into a bit of hot water); actually never even says this player's name in all of day 1.
-More or less ignored completely: Ythan

So the question is, who is more likely to be a scumbuddy:
-Someone that Q thinks is town (or at least agrees with almost every argument of).
-Someone Q wants to seriously lynch.
-Someone Q spends a few points distancing from or sniping at.
-Someone Q wants to ignore altogether.

In my personal experience, scum do not spend all day busing day 1. They also usually don't spend a lot of time buddying up to their own scumbuddies. Obviously, these are not hard and fast rules, only my personal experience, but for the most part I find they want to avoid each other as much as possible. They don't really want to be on the same wagon, they don't want to agree or disagree. They know their allies will support them, or bus them if need be, but they don't want a bus to look like a bus if it has to happen.

For me, Q's constant defense of DarthYoshi could go either way. For a scum to insist continually on someone being town is something that scum might do if they feel there's a pretty good chance the person won't be lynched that day. They can backtrack later. IAmAUserName seemed fairly convinced that DarthYoshi was scum, and having two town-flips (although really, only one case) certainly doesn't bode well for him. I can easily see DarthYoshi as Q's scumbuddy, but I can also see DarthYoshi as the subject of town-buddying, since he was starting to seem like less likely of a lynch than Xtoxm.

To me, the more suspicious people are the people who scum want to avoid completely or only have the most minimum of interaction with. I thought it was really irritating yesterday when Q would snipe at me and continue ignoring Ythan. However, since several other people also wanted to wholly blame me and also ignore Ythan (also DarthYoshi, incidentally), I was at the time just trying to ignore this trend from more than one player. Now that I know Q is indeed confirmed scum, I've reconsidered the possibility that there might be a reason other than simply disliking my blitz that he decided to only snipe at me and ignore Ythan; and moreso, that there might be even more in the way that Ythan has also avoided and ignored Quaroth throughout day1 (admittedly, Ythan seemed to be ignoring a lot of players day1, so... there is that).

Now there's also Regfan... now, TheBigLebowski obviously had almost no interactions with anyone, and Regfan joined pretty far in the day. So I guess I'm not as shocked that Quaroth had exactly 0 interactions with Regfan (other than getting in trouble for dismissing the idea of a massclaim; which wasn't actually an interaction with the player). This could be Quaroth wanting to push Regfan away from the massclaim idea but not really wanting to make a case against him or make either look too scummy... or it could be that Quaroth saw the idea of a massclaim that he wasn't ready for and the very prospect of "autowin" bothered him. In any case, Regfan has seemed otherwise more or less pro-town to me.

So again:
-Ythan has acted generally different this game than in my previous experience with him
-Ythan has been less interested in scumhunting. During the course of day 1, he only really poked three players, Umbrage, Xtoxm, and myself. Xtoxm is confirmed town and Umbrage seems obvtown after Q's flip.
-Q wanted to snipe at me for blitzing Ythan, but did not actually engage Ythan himself in any substantive way through the entire day
-Ythan also had only the bare minimum of interaction with Q
-Ythan continues to easily fit into pretty much any scumteam, other than one with Umbrage.

Q might not have been the most super-active player, but he did give some interaction or some read, and sometimes even took a stand on every player in the game except two: Ythan and Regfan.

Why backpedal out of why you thought someone was town, if they somehow flip scum, when you can simply ignore the player altogether?

[Krazy]

But if the HT claims, then not only will be have a confirmed townie for today's lynch, but the HT will be likely be targeted for the night kill, meaning that the Psych/Det is guaranteed safe another night. If the scum kill someone else, then we have a confirmed townie for tomorrow as well.

Whereas if the HT doesn't claim, it could be killed tonight, and we'd lose the chance to have a confirmed townie.

Since the HT now has no powers, I don't see the harm in sacrificing. We gain a confirmed townie for today, and lose nobody important tonight.

"and we'd lose the chance to have a confirmed townie" ... what? If the HT gets killed tonight, then we still have their FoS from today. We can reread. The benefits of having a "confirmed townie" for one day where we have a mislynch doesn't help us that much. Whereas, if the scum kill a Vanilla Town tonight, we would have the Hider Tracker for tomorrow. Then, since it would be mylo, the Hider Tracker and the Investigator/whatever could both claim, and then there would either be cross-claims or two modconfirmed town.

If we lose the Hider-tracker tonight, we lose the second of two remaining unique/power-roles. There are two scum left. That means, if the Hider-tracker dies tonight, then one of the scum tomorrow can cross-claim investigator and then at mylo, we would have no clears at all. Whereas, if the Hider-tracker and the investigator lives to tomorrow, we would have one clear role for mylo, since if the scum tried to cross-claim both hider-tracker and investigator, then all the remaining vanilla-towns would be clear.

Optimal play I'm pretty sure is for the Hider Tracker to claim today if he has confirmed scum, or if there is a cross-claim for Hider-Tracker (since we have a mislynch, a crossclaim would be actually fantastic for the town). Otherwise, unless he is pushed to L-1 and is the candidate for a lynch, the Hider Tracker should continue playing like a Vanilla Town.

I don't understand why the HT would be targeted for an NK. With the hider dead, the HT is a VT for all practical purposes. By targeting them they reduce the chance of hitting a PR to zero.

I think the HT should claim if he has a name that isn't among the dead. I think the HT should

not

claim otherwise. Keeping the HT in the pool means

less

of a chance of the Mafia hitting a PR tonight.

You're kind of assuming the scum will favor killing the investigator/whatever over controlling the number of unique roles/modconfirmed town, but ultimately I agree with your conclusion so whatever. In either case, the Hider Tracker outing now gives the scum the power to choose whether they value killing a unique role, or whether they value trying to hit the investigator. The closer we keep our cards to our chests, the less power the scum have.

[Umbrage]

But if the HT claims, then not only will be have a confirmed townie for today's lynch, but the HT will be likely be targeted for the night kill, meaning that the Psych/Det is guaranteed safe another night. If the scum kill someone else, then we have a confirmed townie for tomorrow as well.

I don't understand why the HT would be targeted for an NK. With the hider dead, the HT is a VT for all practical purposes. By targeting them they reduce the chance of hitting a PR to zero.

I think the HT should claim if he has a name that isn't among the dead. I think the HT should

not

claim otherwise. Keeping the HT in the pool means

less

of a chance of the Mafia hitting a PR tonight.

But if they leave the HT alive, we have a confirmed townie for tomorrow's lynch as well. We win either way.

@ Krazy: You had a posting war with Ythan at the start of the game, and tunneled on him for most of day 1. I simply can't take your case on him seriously now. You could have found scum, but I can't be convinced. You've simply been pushing this lynch from your very first post. You've been pushing it before Ythan even showed up. So I think it's far more likely you're letting your own agenda take over. You said that Q didn't mention Regfan either, but you don't focus on Regfan. You focus on the person you've been focusing on all game. You might honestly think you've found scum, but I can't take your position seriously.

[Krazy]

@ Krazy: You had a posting war with Ythan at the start of the game, and tunneled on him for most of day 1. I simply can't take your case on him seriously now. You could have found scum, but I can't be convinced. You've simply been pushing this lynch from your very first post. You've been pushing it before Ythan even showed up. So I think it's far more likely you're letting your own agenda take over. You said that Q didn't mention Regfan either, but you don't focus on Regfan. You focus on the person you've been focusing on all game. You might honestly think you've found scum, but I can't take your position seriously.

So don't sheep me and rely on me to find scum, find some yourself then. Do you seriously think Ythan is town, or are you just so annoyed at my blitz on him that you want to ignore him? What's going on there? Half the time you get us confused and the other half you're enraged at me "bullying" Ythan. The blitz was weeks ago in real life now, Umbrage. Clearly Ythan still wants to characterize any prodding of him as tunneling, but just because I blitzed him does not mean I'm not going to list him as my top FoS now, which he is, or ignore him now, and neither should you.

[DarthYoshi]

Sorry I haven't been around. I've been V/LA, but since the game was in Night, I sent the mod a PM instead of posting in-thread. I'm back now.

Initial thoughts (especially in light of Quaraoth's flip):
-I don't think either of the remaining PRs should claim, a guilty result notwithstanding.

-I think AC needs to be much more heavily scrutinized. He and Quaraoth were the only original players who didn't have votes out two weeks into D1 (Regfan didn't either, but as I noted, he's a replacement, and in any case, my read on him is currently neutral-leaning-town). Given when and how AC joined the Xtoxm wagon, I have to think that if there was scum on the wagon, he is the best candidate. Additionally, I think it is interesting that Quaraoth saw the need to defend AC from Umbrage's scumslip case, because honestly, the case on me was stronger than Umbrage's reason, IMO. So why would Quaraoth see the need to defend AC from an attack that most of the town wasn't buying?

-That being said, (and this is sorta in response to Krazy's initial reactions in #484) I'm not sure Quaraoth's vote of Umbrage necessarily clears Umbrage as obvtown either. It looks to me like Quaraoth was pulling the reliable scum tactic of not being on either major wagon, lest its target flip town. And in the unlikely event that Umbrage was lynched and flipped scum, Quaraoth could reap the towncred, so win-win for Quaraoth. Umbrage is probably town, but I'm not ready to firmly put him on my list of town reads. On a similar note, Ythan, why should we be lynching Umbrage?

-Quaraoth not really interacting with Ythan during D1 is actually pretty interesting, in part because Ythan has (for me, at least) been a tough player to read so far.

-If or when Vordark or SE decide to update their cases on me with new material, I'm happy to respond. For the moment, their reasons for voting me seem to be completely recycled from D1.

Vote: Abelcain.

[Abelcain]

Okay, are Krazy and Ythan going to do this fighting thing every day?

Also, Abel, I'm not really sure why you dropped Umbrage in your iso post 15.

Well, since you brought up my misinterpretation of the "scumread" definition, that's also your answer. Assuming that Snake Eyes was using the

actual

definition, then it seems like Snake completely avoided answering Umbrage on his whole situation (i. e., when Snake decided that he had a scumread on Umbrage as opposed to just trying to move past RVS). Since that was a big thing that bothered me with Umbrage at the time of the ISO you're looking at, I started seeing a lot of what Umbrage was doing as bad town-play rather than scum-play. Of course, this was all before his "Why Umbrage Thinks Snake Eyes Is Scum" and way before he decided that he can talk about how we could increase our chances of hitting scum by taking out Xtoxm and then attacking me when I pointed out that we were only increasing our chances of hitting scum D2 if Xtoxm wasn't scum. I still don't think Umbrage is scum, despite the fact that I really don't like the arguments he's been making; he seems to be a lot more reasonable today in light of the flips, which I think is a pretty good thing.



I need to do some re-reads. I just got off a long work weekend and my Spring Break just ended, but one of my classes tomorrow was cancelled so I should definitely be able to get in some solid reading/analyzing tomorrow or tomorrow night. I'll also try running the numbers on claim situations. Since I'm the last to arrive to the party, I guess this means we don't have any confirmation from a HT? That leaves the Det/Psy as our only investigative role, and based on that lack of response I can assume we don't have any usable results there either. Still, I want to do a check on who/what is the optimal play for claims before anyone does any claiming.

I am not in favour of the tracker/vig choose the vig. In my previous experience of vigs they only shoot townies.

The vig must be damn sure about himself to choose vig.

Godspeed, ConSpiracy.

[implosion]

Vote count 2.1:

Krazy - 1 (Umbrage)
Umbrage - 1 (Ythan)
Ythan - 1 (Krazy)
Regfan - 0
Snake Eyes - 0
Vordark - 0
Abelcain - 1 (DarthYoshi)
DarthYoshi - 2 (Vordark, Snake Eyes)
No lynch - 0
Not voting: Regfan, Abelcain.

With 8 alive, 5 votes are required to lynch.

[Krazy]

Okay, are Krazy and Ythan going to do this fighting thing every day?

Quaroth also liked downplaying my case on Ythan during the blitz as a personal dispute. You sure you want to play that card AC?

[Krazy]

Wow, alright a lot happened in that night. I'm going to need to re-read Quaroths lines later. I've got to do a few massive catch-ups in other games today but should have a post up by tommorow afternoon. I've got a few questions for everyone to answer while I catch up:

1) Do you think Iamusername hid behind mafia or vig?
2) Does Quaroths scumflip make you think anyone is more lilely to be town/mafia?
3) Who's your largest suspect as of now?

P.S. Regfan stop being scummy and answer your own questions first.

[Ythan]

Secondly, we are headed for a repeat of day 1. Everyone so far has simply posted their suspects from day 1. Krazy thinks Ythan is scummy. Ythan thinks I'm scummy. Vordark thinks DarthYoshi is scummy. It's the exact same fucking thing.

This is toward the terrible end of the how to downplay suspicion against you spectrum. The fact that I thought you were scum yesterday does not really alleviate my suspicion of you today.

I have established it to my satisfaction in post #262.

Are you satisfied with nobody believing things you say, because it's really easy to convince yourself of your point of view if that's all you want to do.

I have expressed possible scum motives for observed behavior. You are asking me if those motives exist if we ignore the behavior. That is nonsensical.

This does not even resemble my statement, and you're doing a piss poor job as always of actually supporting statements. The next time I see you say "I already said that", and it's both dubious and lacking in even a specific post number, I'm considering moving my vote.

I believe post #291 covers all of this suitably.

I seriously disagree.

I am perfectly even-tempered. Why do you believe I have not been?

Your chronic problem with actually sharing the support your claim in important posts.

Question: Should the hider tracker claim today even if there is no information on scum? That will give us a confirmed townie for today, and give scum the WIFOM option of either trying to kill the last PR or the confirmed VT. If we wait, there's a chance the HT would be killed and we'll lose our chance at a lynch with confirmed town. Thoughts?

Forget everything I said about possibly moving my vote. Been over how there is absolutely no reason for the HT to claim today if they don't have scum for us.

[Ythan]

After Q's flip, Ythan's suspicion of you either implies Q spent nearly the entire day yesterday busing--on day one--or Ythan's suspicion of you is completely unfounded and doesn't make any sense at all.

You have a plenty bullshitty case of your own to discuss before you move on to misrepresenting mine as just as ridiculous as anything you've posted.

I'm going to take a look at exactly how significant a part of the Umbrage wagon was Q-pushed. Because I don't anticipate it was very much at all.

[Duplicity]

Moved

[Regfan]

Uh. Wow. Posted on the wrong account, mod can you delete that post by any chance, if so I'll repost it here.

Sorry, can't delete it - I can edit though. Got rid of it and edited into this post below:

Alright, sorry for the delay I just finished reading through and catching up on another game where I was 40 pages behind. I've re-read Quaroth's lines and I'm not seeing how is flip leads to Umbrage being more likely town whatsoever, the attack attempted against Umbrage at the end of yesterday was a futile one. At that point it was abundantly obvious that Umbrage wasn'g going to get lynched therefore the push towards him is nothing other then an attempt to seem as if he was contributing. With that said, I still think Umbrage is merely a misguided townie at the moment. Ah, thanks for pointing that out Krazy, I often forget to answer my questions myself:

1. I think he hid behind ConSpiracy, merely due to the fact that he stated no form of trust or town-read on Quaroth.
2. Oddly enough no, I've gone through his interactions and I don't find anything substancial that makes me believe anyone is town/mafia due to it.
3. With Iamusername flipping town I would have to say Yoshi with Abelcain as a near second, though with recent interactions I don't think they're partners, so one of them is mafia, the other is town. Going to need to read more into this later.

@Krazy, you clearly believe Ytahn is mafia, who do you think his partners are?
@Ythan, you think Umbrage is mafia, who do you think his partner is?
@Yoshi, do yo think Vordark is misguided town or mafia attempting to cause a ML on you?
@Yoshi, Apart from Abelcains lack of vote can you summarize the reasoning behind why you think Abelcain is mafia? I know why I do but I want to hear what your thoughts are.
@Umbrage, do you still think SnakeEyes is mafia? If so who do you beleive his partner is?
@Abelcain, if you're doing some re-reading can you tell me your thoughts of SnakeEyes in light of recent flips please?