The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Super Vanilla Townie]

Oh for god sakes, these hydra things are an enormous pain in the balls.

Yeah, I'm using three accounts between all my games and it's a pain in the ass. I have each one set to a different MS theme to help prevent mixups, though. Maybe try that?

You are right, of course, about the possibility of PR hunting. In fact, it was your predecessor, Beaver, who was openly speculating in thread that Ether was a mason.

Let's play a game.

Ah good, SVT is town.

Not that I disagree, but reasoning is good, yeah?

I would also like to say that Super Vanilla Townie has not contributed sufficeint verbiage to the thread to earn him six brownie points or the gold star, and his dayvig of Vi was uncalled for.

I'm sad. And confused.


Not liking how Balam sort of attacks Grey ("RayFrost has bloodlust for Greymarble, and with Greymarble's newest post, I guess we're in for a treat."), Grey attacks Balam and Balam quite blatantly countervotes. But I am happy to have Balam's support on the Spotwagon. *keeps reading* nvm.

UB needs to give reasoning for his Coppervote, obviously.

I'm glad someone caught the contradiction of Spot trying to discredit us (me?) even though he was defending us earlier. I honestly didn't even catch that myself...

~Pie

[Balam]

(AGar)

We've been explaining all damn day we think daspot is scummy. Are you even reading our posts any more? We switched because there was a wagon on him.

Gah.

Um, you have?

Let's take a looksie. D2:

Open with a FD vote. Tunnel on FD pretty hard. Mention DaSpot 5 days in once as being scummy. A week and 7 posts later you respond to DaSpot, explaining the basis of your suspicion, after some more FD-tunnel. Then the post about not swapping to a worse wagon, but would swap to DaSpot. DaSpot becomes viable, you switch.

I hardly see you explaining "all damn day" that you think Daspot is scummy. One or two mentions, yes. But not "all damn day."

Because there's a viable wagon that we agree with. You'd think that we'd be able to make a more useful vote than FD, but for the longest time the only genuinely viable wagons were the one on us and the one on BeaverWeasel.

You really didn't push to make FD or DaSpot viable, though. You were simply content to sit around and park your FD vote while waiting for the work to be done for you, so you could just slide over. You've done nothing to improve the viability of either of the wagons you were willing to get behind. Instead you've been content to sit back and just watch, and that doesn't strike me as a very town-motivated thing.

Okay, this half of the hydra is getting spotty (get it?) internet access, but I'll keep it short. The people on our wagon are:
A guy who OMGUS'd because we were supposedly OMGUS'ing
A guy who FoS'd us because a post "seemed suspicious" despite his admitting that the opposite would have been scummier
A guy who we've been trying to get lynched for this whole day

So...don't listen to them.

You're.... kidding right?

That's all you're giving us here?

@Balam: Your definition seems to be along the lines of 'If there's logic that's good and I agree with, then it's town. If I don't think the logic makes sense/disagree with it, it's scummy.'

We can see a logical thought-process and disagree with it, so no. We can see why Grey has been attacking our posting. We disagree with it. But I've said before, we don't think he's scum attacking us. I think he thinks he's found something and is chasing after it instinctively. The same goes for this white-knighting business. If a logical connection is there that can be followed, whether the actual reasoning there is something agreed upon or not, it's more likely to come from a town player.

[Final Destination]

AGM and I don't even know what to say anymore.

Unfortunately we're not like Copper, and can comment on EVERYTHING that happens and give reads out like candy.

We want FES dead. Everything other than that is a distraction. We're not interested in derailing our own wagon, nor do we feel the need to add any more fuel to it, since FES' posts don't even amount to anything that can be scumhunted anymore.

We DO see a couple of various connections between Balam, Fonzi, and Copper, but these things will be played out and discussed by us when we have proper motivation to do as such.

That motivation will NOT come while FES still breathes.

We like Balam's most recent depcition of the situation: FES tunnels us weakly, leaving room for a Daspot wagon as an escape route, then BAM look what happens? He hops on the Daspot wagon.

Daspot is just dripping of mislynch. His wagon is "hot for scum" as AGM put it.

As far as Parama goes, he's town if FES is scum. That's just how Parama's shitforreads work.

Enough rehashing of things though, even though we haven't posted content in a week or more I still feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point on several issues.

[AGM Approved]

[Greymarble]

Both heads are in strong agreement that DaSpot is a mislynch. Llamarble is playing catchup, and wants the time to evaluate the FES lynch.

If those are our choices though, rest assured the vote is landing on FES 11 times out of 10.

Copper misreading my FOS on Equinox suggests quite a bit more skimming than their posts would.

Regardless still likely town, but you may consider my confidence dropped a few notches.

[Lord Fonzi]

OK. In spite of my partner's very grave reservations here, I'm going to call for an FES claim. He's at L-1, there are five people on that wagon, and four of them have pretty much declared that they will not vote for DaSpot (the only wagon that looks remotely viable as a counterwagon) over FES in any circumstances (Copper being the exception, since obviously DSTKU will not vote for themselves).

FD wants Froggy dead at all costs, DaSpot wants Froggy dead at all costs, Greymarble has stated a strong belief that DS is town, Balam gives the impression of finding DaSpot scummy but Froggy even more so. In addition, Gummy has had FES in his top three, like, forever, so the only way I can see them failing to eventually hammer is if both are scum. If Gummy is scum and FES town, then Gummy has a ready-made excuse to jump the wagon (even if they delay until it's 'hammering to prevent a no-lynch'), and if Gummy town and FES scum... well, why wouldn't they vote FES since they've repeatedly said he's one of their top three, and neither of the other two are viable today?

Ergo, the only way Froggy survives this without a claim is if he's scum. Therefore, I want a claim.

[Greymarble]

{Pssst... next time be more subtle about coaching}

[Greymarble]

Y'all brace yourselves for a really cool fakeclaim now.

[Lord Fonzi]

Yes, because it would have been so much better if I'd quickhammered or something. Jesus Christ.

[Greymarble]

You spent way to much time and effort to say "claim naoh"

It's the same as the L-1 thing, it looks like a big show put on in the thread for our benefit. That may be what the little voice in the back of my head was telling me.

Or it may be saying it's lunchtime.

Will think about it.

[Copper]

Copper misreading my FOS on Equinox suggests quite a bit more skimming than their posts would.

I've read the relevant parts in more detail. Sorry, but I still just see "FOS for disagreeing with Llmarbles logic", and I still maintain that is silly. Is it a joke I'm missing?

---

We're at odds with the rest of the town regarding FES, it seems. People are calling his hop onto DaSpot scummy, and we disagree. His FD vote was worthless a long time ago, and a good compromise wagon is exactly what a townie should be looking for. The scummy thing, in our eyes, is the long delay before he switched onto DaSpot.

Ultimately, it's a six of one, half-dozen of the other situation. We want him lynched. All the same, it's interesting that we have people trying to lynch FES for literally opposing reasons (voting DaSpot/not voting DaSpot). This may be a point worth pursuing tomorrow.

---

Fonzi: If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that any last-minute energy towards daSpot would indicate FES scum (because we're the only voter on the FES wagon who would be similarly happy with a daSpot lynch.) Why wouldn't you want to keep that to yourself, and see if this change in momentum indeed occurs?

[Lord Fonzi]

Meh. I wanted to call for a claim... I explained why. I looked at the people's positions, and basically decided that the claim was going to happen sooner or later, so there was no benefit to town in dragging it out.

How the fuck is that 'coaching?'

[Lord Fonzi]

---

Fonzi: If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that any last-minute energy towards daSpot would indicate FES scum (because we're the only voter on the FES wagon who would be similarly happy with a daSpot lynch.) Why wouldn't you want to keep that to yourself, and see if this change in momentum indeed occurs?

Eh? I'm not saying that at all. I was saying there wasn't any chance of that momentum shift actually happening, so we might as well stop going round in circles. I kinda agree with FD here... when it's blatantly obvious that one player is going to be the leading wagon going into deadline, and no-one's moving, it doesn't help just to have everyone keep re-asserting their positions.

[Copper]

Ah, apologies. I read it as "there is a chance of the momentum shift happening, but only if FES is scum."

[Greymarble]

Copper misreading my FOS on Equinox suggests quite a bit more skimming than their posts would.

I've read the relevant parts in more detail. Sorry, but I still just see "FOS for disagreeing with Llmarbles logic", and I still maintain that is silly. Is it a joke I'm missing?

The bit where I've just given balam a hard time for pages about saying things like "AGar thinks X, RayFrost thinks Y, we'll futz about in the thread and not explain any of that?"

...

Do I need to start adding /sarcasm tags?

[Copper]

That one was a little too subtle, yes. If you had appended a "We'll explain why this is scummy in our Quicktopic", we probably would have gotten it.

Sarcastic votes/FoS's should be very obviously overblown or not used at all, in our view.

[Greymarble]

DrMyShotty thinks that disliking sarcasm is scummy, but Llamarble believes it's a null tell.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

I hope CES will forgive me for taking the opportunity to post under my own steam, here, but I just NEED to at this stage. I'm baffled by this wagon. I don't

get

it, and it's almost certainly largely scum driven. I mean, I'm not even sure why FD is voting us any more - it seems like he's just tunneled hard on us (his latest accusation of us tunneling is laughable, in context) - we called out his ridiculous overreaction (which IS scummy, like it or not) and cited the meta case, and now he thinks we're scum? Uph. Honestly I'm beginning to lose conviction that they're scum anyway, but w/e. We're not voting them any more. If we survive and CES still thinks you're scum, we'll have to compromise or w/e.

The one thing I've learnt from this game is that CES and I have massively different playstyles. Personally, I think we should have been pushing FD harder earlier, and he thinks we should have jumped off the FD wagon earlier, and between us we ended up doing neither and parking our vote there for no real reason.

Frankly I think Copper's jump on our wagon is scummy. He skirts around it for ages, then invents a little game that allows him to jump on board. I don't like people telling me not to vote someone. I'm pretty certain that we could still get FD lynched if we tried - but well, I guess we haven't really been making things happen this game. It's hard when everyone thinks you're scum and no one will listen to what you say except to invent scumtells in it (/bitter).

Daspot is like ridiculously insanely scummy and I have no idea how ANYONE can think he's town. Like, that exchange at the beginning, read it again. He votes UB, pushes UB (and yes, that is pushing. WTF. I have no idea how he can think that shit isn't pushing - repeating "omg x is scummy" and bringing him up over and over is pushing the lynch) and then his partner comes in, realises what a terrible idea it is to push the ridiculously soft UB wagon and tries to reposition them. Peu importe that everyone thinks they're town - it's a soft wagon because UB is essentially this game's VI, this game's designated day 1 wagon (and that he didn't get more votes is pretty extraordinary, really) and pushing that wagon is generally both attractive and lethal to scum. So yeah, daspot needs to die.

Apart from that, I personally liked the gummybear case that fonzi was talking about - CES was lukewarm on it though. Hah, that's counter to my meta, I know, but lurking scum is back in vogue (probably since no one lynches lurkers any more). On that note, if me and CES have had low activity it's partly because we haven't agreed on much.

I don't really want to claim, and fonzi's suggestion that us getting out of this mess sans claim would mean we're scum is bullshit.

[Lord Fonzi]

Hey Shanba, how about reading the fucking thread before making bullshit accusations? I'm not saying you're not getting out of this without claiming unless you're scum. I'm saying you're not getting out of this without claiming,

period

. Now stop wasting the town's time.

[Shanba]

Ergo, the only way Froggy survives this without a claim is if he's scum. Therefore, I want a claim.

?

[Shanba]

Gender: Male

Post #636 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:56 pm
Copper wrote:
---

Fonzi: If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that any last-minute energy towards daSpot would indicate FES scum (because we're the only voter on the FES wagon who would be similarly happy with a daSpot lynch.) Why wouldn't you want to keep that to yourself, and see if this change in momentum indeed occurs?


Eh? I'm not saying that at all. I was saying there wasn't any chance of that momentum shift actually happening, so we might as well stop going round in circles. I kinda agree with FD here...

Actually this is a massive glaring backtrack and I'm baffled copper didn't call you out on it.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Ergo, the only way Froggy survives this without a claim is if he's scum. Therefore, I want a claim.

?

Gender: Male

Post #636 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:56 pm
Copper wrote:
---

Fonzi: If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that any last-minute energy towards daSpot would indicate FES scum (because we're the only voter on the FES wagon who would be similarly happy with a daSpot lynch.) Why wouldn't you want to keep that to yourself, and see if this change in momentum indeed occurs?


Eh? I'm not saying that at all. I was saying there wasn't any chance of that momentum shift actually happening, so we might as well stop going round in circles. I kinda agree with FD here...

Actually this is a massive glaring backtrack and I'm baffled copper didn't call you out on it.

My bad, wrong account.

Just to elaborate further - it's impossible to read the sentence "the only way froggy survives without a claim is if he's scum" without an implicit "If he's scum, it's possible he survives. The sentence makes no sense otherwise. Then he later says "there wasn't any chance of that momentum switch happening" with an implicit "even if he is scum". I'd have said it wasn't important, but a) copper letting it go for no apparent reason and b) him then calling me out for using his exact words leaves a serious bad taste in my mouth.

[Lord Fonzi]

You're correct. I'm getting angry at you for reacting to what I said rather than what I was trying to say, which is silly. I'm sorry.

Basically, if Gummy even tried to get out of placing you in the claim or die position, I'd see it as so scummy and so obvious a link that in that case, I'd drop the hammer immediately (and probably spend the rest of the game apologizing to Gurgi if I'm wrong). Therefore, in the only scenario where you don't end up with someone else saying claim or die, I'd do it, therefore you're not getting away with it either way.

In addition, I think that since it would be SO obvious, that Gummy can't realistically try to pull it. There's not enough WIFOM in the world. That's why I think it's basically inevitable you end up claiming, because I don't think it's realistic to see any other wagon getting six votes. 4/5 on you seem to have committed themselves to staying there, and one of the few off you has at the very least committed to your lynch if Yos and SVT aren't viable, and they aren't.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

You know, Fonzy, this is the second time I've specifically directed a post towards you about a problem I have with your Froggy case, and both times now you just blithly went along without even acknowledging I said anything. It's starting to seem a little odd to me. If you don't agree with my last post, that's fine, but I'd like to know why; other then that comment about me posting from the wrong account, I don't know why you disagree with me. You just seem to want to push for a claim/lynch (or, I guess, at least one of your heads does), and don't seem to care that I just shot down your most recent justification for it. I don't get it.

-Yos

[Lord Fonzi]

In fact, let's boil it down: which of the following premises do you actually disagree with?

1) If Gummybear is town, he will eventually vote you.
2) If Gummybear is scum and NOT your partner, he has no reason not to vote you as doing so actually looks worse.
3) There are not six DaSpot votes out there.

[Lord Fonzi]

You know, Fonzy, this is the second time I've specifically directed a post towards you about a problem I have with your Froggy case, and both times now you just blithly went along without even acknowledging I said anything. It's starting to seem a little odd to me. If you don't agree with my last post, that's fine, but I'd like to know why; other then that comment about me posting from the wrong account, I don't know why you disagree with me. You just seem to want to push for a claim/lynch (or, I guess, at least one of your heads does), and don't seem to care that I just shot down your most recent justification for it. I don't get it.

-Yos

Eh? Perhaps because Froggy themselves had already pointed out that they had previously listed DaSpot as a secondary suspect, and I had acknowledged that that was a mitigating circumstance- that in fact the Spot vote wasn't as overwhelmingly obvscummy as my initial reaction was to think it was? Therefore, I didn't respond because you didn't add anything new.