Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[Javert]

Bonjour!

Looks like I get to

start

this game on my high horse.

[Javert]

Hey all, how much experience do you have?

Highly experienced.

Vote: Prosaurus

. Last to confirm, and already lurking. Scumbag in the bag.

Fixed.

[Javert]

C'est la vie. At least I caught scum.

[Javert]

Unvote: Prosaurus, Vote: ender241

.

Javert - How do you feel about prosaurus now that he is no longer "lurking"?

No read on Prosaurus. In fact, I don't have a read on much of anyone. All of the questions in this game so far seem like attempts to squeeze blood from a turnip.

[Javert]

Try reading ender241's last post. What a lazy question.

[Javert]

If I had wanted to explain my vote on ender241 in great detail, I would have done it in my post. Which is what makes your question lazy: if a player purposefully does not explain their vote immediately, chances are they are not going to explain it just because somebody pops in asking "why the vote change?" Anybody analyzing the game should understand the gist behind my vote.

And by the way, this:

Do you think everyone who disagrees with you is scum?

Is just a dumb question. And seeing as it has nothing to do with anything, I am unsure why you chose to tack it onto your post.

[Javert]

Not about to explain my vote. But to clarify on a couple other things:

1.)

I did not "attack" Juls for her question: I called it lazy. And then I explained why it was lazy. I

did

, however, attack her for the "is everybody who disagrees with you scum?" quip, because it has no proper place in the conversation.

2.)

I said I did not have much of a read on players, not that I had no reads at all. The fact that I began my post by voting ender241 makes that rather clear.

3.)

Usually I see scum who have a harder time reading people.

And this tell is really only applicable (i) to players who, as scum, are not good at fabricating suspicions on people, and (ii) to situations where there is enough information in the thread that everybody is likely to have firm opinions on people. Neither of which is the case here.

[Javert]

I will go ahead and answer the questions I’ve thoughtfully ignored.

any reason for the vote switch Javert?

So your problem with ender is that you disagree with his read on Prosaurus? What about that makes him scummy? Do you think everyone who disagrees with you is scum?

When you say next to nothing in the game and say ender is scummy read his post I find nothing from you that gives me warm fuzzy feelings or reasoning then why is questioning your "read" lazy?

[Javert]

You can't even answer a simple question?

[Javert]

You forgot to unvote, Twistedspoon.

1.)

If I consider a question to be below me, I am only going to respond with my avatar. And as I have said at least twice, I am not going to explain my vote on ender241.

2.)

By the way, I'm a DayVig. No, I'm not joking, and yes, I am going to use my ability at some point today. My kill will be posted in-thread.

If somebody would like to volunteer themselves for instant death, please let me know, and I will be happy to oblige! Also, if anybody fails to post content for a period of 4 days without giving V/LA notice, they are eligible to be Vigged.

Now, maybe people will stop asking me pointless (and bad) questions. I am not in the mood to answer them.

Inspector Javert

shall be the one asking the questions from here on out.

[Javert]

Oso, please retract your request. I will answer the questions if it will keep you in the game.

[Javert]

This post is only to keep Oso in the game; I truly would like you to send the Mod a PM retracting your replacement request. This is not, as ender241 insinuates, because I am “going to be in trouble" from players, but solely because I have enjoyed the two games I have played with you, and I would like to play with you again this game as well. Your name being on the list was one of the reasons I signed up for this game, in fact.

1.)

I voted ender241 for Post 91. First, it is almost verbatim to Erratus Apathos' post, Post 90. But it has a subtle difference: while Erratus Apathos correctly pointed out that Prosaurus was more using his "newb card" to defend why he was not getting reads on players, ender241 instead claimed the "newb card" was being played in order to "get out of situations where he is going to be voted." I definitely do not get that impression from Prosaurus' post, and I think it is an overblown attack on the "newb card."

2.)

I did not vote ender241 solely because I “disagree with him” (as insinuated by Juls), but because I felt his attack stepped over the line of plausibility.

3.)

As should be evident, I do not approve of people asking others to explain votes when they have purposefully withheld an explanation for their vote.

And that should answer everybody’s questions. And finally,

4.)

I really

am

a DayVig. This is not a fake-claim. And I

will

be using my ability before Day One is through, so it is not lost in case I do not use it Day One and then I die on Night One. I may have gone a bit overboard in trying to role-play Javert here, and I apologize if you have taken offense. But it should be evident in retrospect that the main purpose of claiming now (instead of when I take my shot) is to proactively prevent lurking. Any player who tries to get away with lurking is eligible to be Vigged on principle. This should satisfy your "defensible pro-town reason" concern.

~

Now walking out the door.

[Javert]

1.)

My knee-jerk reaction was that Prosaurus’ Post 152 was bad rolefishing, but it actually looks completely justified given ender241’s post. I would also like ender241 to explain his statement.

2.)

Not convinced either way on ender241’s “emotion.” Done it as Town, done it as Scum.

3.)

I think it’s safe to say farside22 and Erratus Apathos are not scum together, should this information ever prove useful. Highly doubtful a scum partner would point out an in-thread edit to a post so forcefully – partner would probably PM the Mod quietly and ask for lenience and hope the situation goes by unnoticed.

4.)

@Jav: so why did you claim if you are a day-vig? why not keep it a secret so you could use it a later day when you have more information to make more accurate reads from?

If you want to DayVig you should wait until we have pretty much confirmed scum.

I am not guaranteed to be alive tomorrow. I would rather make sure I can use my ability while I can. Additionally, it is

quite

rare to ever have “pretty much confirmed scum,” and that’s a rather unreasonable expectation to hope to achieve.

Furthermore, claiming

now

means I get to actively enforce posting content.

5.)

Any reason why you don't say anything to Juls who hops on to Rhinox logic?

Uh. Juls explicitly referenced Rhinox when she changed her vote to Oso in Post 248. There is absolutely nothing wrong with following players; mafia is a game of persuasion, after all. This is completely different from ender241’s vote on Prosaurus, which at first glance seemed to be verbatim of Erratus Apathos, but was actually worse.

6.)

Javert, is your day vig 1-shot?

Not going to answer this question.

[Javert]

If you want to DayVig you should wait until we have pretty much confirmed scum.

I'll find out what he is tonight.

ender241, I hope you're getting around to explaining this.

[Javert]

ender241, you are not

going

to be put at L-1 because then you might self-hammer in the hopes I cannot get off a DayVig today. For the purposes of this Day One, being at L-2 is equivalent to L-1. If you fail to explain your statement, you are definitely subject to an immediate DayVigging. You put the statement out there; now you are being asked to explain it.

[Javert]

Cute.

Maxous just recently said he was going to refrain voting for you to prevent you from being put at L-1. Therefore, even without my DayVig ability, you should consider yourself to effectively be at L-1. Believe it or not, I don't want to kill you if you are Town, and I am not going to DayVig you out of "pride" or my increasing annoyance with you. But continual refusal to claim in the hopes that you will be put at L-1 when there are obvious reasons for you to

not

be put at L-1 is not helping you.

[Javert]

That will probably depend largely on the vote count and whether or not people are willing to unvote. As I said earlier, my DayVig

will not

reset the vote count. That said, the number required to lynch will be 7 both before and after the kill, but I would still rather not DayVig somebody if that is going to leave another player at L-1.

[Javert]

VOTE: Javert Thats all i need, your obviously bluffing.

Uh hunh.

It is pretty obvious that I would prefer to kill scum over stubborn Town, and right now you either one or the either. I had to "swallow my pride" (so to speak) to keep Oso in the game earlier; and now you need to do the same. If you are really Town, right now you are pursuing a course of action that is not helping the Town in any manner whatsoever. Although I will not kill you

for

being stubborn, being stubborn will not

save

you.

[Javert]

Busy, anti-prod post.

Unvote: ender241

. I will think about the claim.

[Javert]

1.)

I'm inclined to believe ender's claim. The "I'll find out tonight" fit's in perfectly with cop planning to investigate Javert.

This post took me a little aback coming from a player who has been on-site for over a year. I don’t think ender241’s “crumb” means two beans, precisely because he only crumbed when he was being put under pressure, as opposed to crumbing from the very beginning of the game. Furthermore, his “crumb” at the time was extremely generic, and certainly does not suggest “1-Shot Cop.”

If ender241 is scum, I would look at Me=Weird first and foremost. That said, I am not sure vice-versa applies; this could also be scum trying to get on the good side of a claimed 1-Shot Cop. Either way, it is a strike against Me=Weird.

2.)

My vote on Javert is utterly redundant anyways now that his wagon is gone and he's claimed :/

This post suggests that when Twistedspoon votes, it is ultimately to get people to claim, and not – say – because he believes that player is scum. Strike.

3.)

Out of all the things in this game, you think what you perceive to be role-fishing to be the scummiest stuff in the game? Look, I can think of at least one reason for asking that off the top of my head. A doctor trying to figure out whether to protect a vig, which if not 1-shot, would be the best thing to do, or a 1-shot cop, when a 1-shot vig has already used his bullet.

I do not like this post. This is a pretty bad justification for asking me the number of shots in my role.

4.)

Why the pressure for a claim? Wasn't the soft claim pretty self explanatory?
Now you have the unvote, while thinking. What were you expecting with this exercise?

Tempted to just post my avatar as a response, here.

The soft-claim was not self-explanatory. What was self-explanatory was that he was going to claim some sort of power role. Which I imagine scum would have been perfectly happy accepting; scum don’t need to know

what

role everybody has, but only

who

has a role. Since it was obvious that ender241 was either a power role or scum after that post (i.e. scum know all they need to know), the Town is hence better off forcing him to clarify.

Curiously, though, Scum have a habit of fake-claiming power, and also soft-claiming to see if it might get people to get off their back once the water starts boiling in their tiny pot. It is

far

more common for scum to try to survive off of a vague crumb than Townspeople; that’s because a vague crumb allows scum to claim different things at different points of the game. ender241’s crumb could have turned into quite a few claims.

I am actually a bit surprised, farside22, that you would even write up Post 266. Unless we have astronomically stupid (or unobservant) scum in this game, I can guarantee that if ender241 is Town, every single scum in this game put a checkmark by ender241’s name when he said “either way, I will find out tonight.” In fact, scum are much more likely to file that information away and hope protective roles do not take notice of such soft-claims; scum are not about to publically talk about it when they can just as easily mention it during nighttalk.

FoS: farside22

. Experience cuts against you here. I find it hard to believe you are really propounding the whole “it is antitown to point out an obvious breadcrumb and force a clarification.”

5.)

Although I think it is possible for a Mini Normal game to have two 1-Shot Cops, it does not strike me as very plausible that a Town would just happen to two 1-Shot Cops would just happen to be the two largest wagons on Day One.

Right now, my pool of players to be vigged are {ender241, Twistedspoon, Me=Weird}.

[Javert]

It's possible, but I don't actively believe it at this point.

[Javert]

If not both, then why are both in your vigpool?

Try rethinking that question.

[Javert]

1.)

@Javert 309: 1. In addition, ender had done what I saw to be scummy, but I'd also had a gut town feel from his posts. I thought he acted scummier than the town feel, so I attacked him anyway. Plus, he seemed pretty eager to claim, the way a PR would.

… What? ender241 went out of his way to avoid claiming. That is rather the opposite of “seemed pretty eager to claim.” At best, ender241 was “eager to try to get out of claiming by vaguely suggesting he had a power role and hoping he would not have to clarify.”

2.)

Yesterday I thought about this game quite a bit, and I have an idea I want to throw out.

Javert's shot followed by a no-lynch.

Strongly opposed to this. The purpose of mafia is not to keep power roles alive, but ultimately to lynch scum.

Additionally, because this game starts with an odd numbers of players, and assuming there will be one nightkill each night (and assuming I die overnight – I am not about to suggest whether I will also be able to DayVig tomorrow), then if we do not lynch today my role is effectively useless (except to prove itself). However, if I use it today and sometime later in the game there is a missed kill, we will have gained a lynch.

[Javert]

Apologies for my "lurking"; life has been busy for me this last week. I am about to head out for the evening, but given the "town imposed deadline" I will Vig somebody either when I get back tonight (which will be late), or sometime tomorrow. I will try to "decide" tonight but Vig tomorrow, since I prefer to sleep on important decisions in case I have a midnight epiphany or gut wrench. As I mentioned earlier, my pool is probably self-restricted to one of {ender241, Twistedspoon, and Me=Weird}, but I cannot promise I will keep my shot in the pool if I happen to catch something when I reread.

[Javert]

Been reading the game (and players in isolation in particular). Rather annoying. Somebody seems like scum up until I isolate their posts.

Most of my time has been spent skimming Twistedspoon's history, but he (annoyingly) has not been scum in any completed games that I can find, so I can't be sure if I am reading his inexperience as scumminess. If I boiled it down, I don't like that: (1) he suggests I could be scum with a daykill; (2) he unvotes me because I have already claimed; and (3) he attacks ender241 for unvoting Necessary Evil, but then retracts his attack because ender241 claimed Cop. Can easily see scum trying to be too clever by half with these posts, and it's difficult to see a Town reason in posting them.

Still reading. And up far too late...

[Javert]

Actually.

Really going back to ender241 + Me=Weird. I don't understand Me=Weird's reaction to ender241 at all. First, Me=Weird attacks ender241, but then supports ender241 while voting for him. Then he backs up the claim at least twice; once he says he believes the claim because of the breadcrumb (which I don't buy; the breadcrumb was dropped as a last resort, and does not suggest 1-Shot Cop), and then he suggests ender241 is Town because he was "eager to claim." I still do not buy that reasoning. ender241 was not eager to claim. But he was certainly eager to get people to stop attacking him, which he first tried to by subtly hinting at power, and then patently avoided claiming until somebody was going to put him at L-1.

Another problem with ender241 was his recent absence (possibly in hopes of not having a wagon rear up on him again, especially in light of Twistedspoon's claim, in other words "oh shit, this guy basically counterclaimed me"). This was followed by returning and asking everybody for "top 3 scum" without giving his own opinion on who is scum.

Whether ender241 is Town or Scum, I'm not sure I buy into Me=Weird's reasoning for his actions. And as I mentioned before, I do not buy into his explanation for asking me the number of shots in my role.

Anyways. Think I am going to try to sleep. Currently going to Vig ender241, or Me=Weird. I will Vig somebody in the next ten hours.

[Javert]

It appears I am in luck.

Twistedspoon, please explain to me what your felt your "strategy" was in that game. How did you try to get Townspeople mislynched? Did you try to buddy up? Did you defend your scumpartners?

Why don't you feel your play in this game is not similar to that game?

[Javert]

You claimed Deputy in that game with a single investigation result. Do you think that influenced your claim in this game?

[Javert]

That wasn't my question, Twistedspoon. Answer quickly, now.

[Javert]

Seven minutes to post, and your answer is a bit forced. My question was a (rather obvious) attempt to see if I could catch scum slipping up, but it certainly would not work with somebody who takes almost twenty minutes total to answer the question. Strike.

[Javert]

Here's my problem with your post, by the way:

After skimming your QuickTopic from your other game, two things stand out to me. You are overly concerned with what others think about your play. And you are actually sharper than your posts let on.

Your response to me just now, on the other hand, looks to be hamming it up. I'm pretty sure you know

exactly

what I was getting at, and yet you act confused. Not really buying it.

[Javert]

I do have a question, sure.

When you were scum in that game, do you think you tried to use the "I'm confused" tactic as scum to make yourself look like befuddled Town? Because it's showing here. If you answer "no," by the way, I

will

take the time to read your posts in that other game to see if it contradicts what you say here.

[Javert]

Any reason you tried shifting the discussion to whether I have meta'd other players?

[Javert]

You mentioned in the QuickTopic that you managed to avoid being lynched Day One because of a single pro-town post. Mind linking me, and explaining why you were being run up? I don't have time to read the game, and I should really be trying to get at least a couple hours sleep tonight.

[Javert]

So... last game you slipped early because you knew too much about the set-up.

Now in this game, you said you saw a "theme" of 1-Shots early after a single player (ender241) claimed 1-Shot Cop. Not only does that pretty much suggest you immediately believed ender241's claim (which is a bit far-fetched since you are claiming the exact same role as him), but it also suggests you might have too much though possibly imperfect -- I am not going to say how many shots

my

role gets) information.

Going to bed now. Will Vig later.

[Javert]

Kill: ender241

.

[Javert]

Vote: Twistedspoon

.

Still doubt we would happen to wagon two 2-Shot Cops one after the other, and Twistedspoon has spent his last several posts (as well as posts before I used my shot) to try to undermine me as opposed to hunting scum.

[Javert]

I unfortunately do not have additional DayVigging capabilities (as I am sure the scum were able to deduce from the whole "

one

shot, he only had

one

bullet" flavor the mod wrote into my kill.

Really wishing I had Vigged Twistedspoon on Day One. Sigh. Still, I will try to force myself to give the game a read over before voting.

[Javert]

To those who argue that TwistedSpoon has "no reason" to fake a guilty:

If we assume a scum-group of three players, and a nightkill on a Townsperson every night, then scum need

two

mislynches to win the game while we need three

correct

lynches to win the game. In this situation, the scum can play a game of attrition: they are more than happy to make a one-for-one trade. If scum can get us to mislynch today, then we will be in a perpetual state of Lynch-or-Lose, which is very much to scum's advantage.

Try looking at the game from the larger perspective. Scum trade for Town all the time. And although Twistedspoon is a newb himself, if he is scum then he presumably has two partners who are likely more experienced than him, and who could easily have planned alongside Twistedspoon to say "just claim a guilty on X player who is unclaimed."

Additionally, anybody who read Day One with any care would know that if Twistedspoon claimed an innocent today, then we might have lynched Twistedspoon regardless -- because of the suspicion on him from Day One. By claiming a guilty, he at least forces the issue and gives us direction for votes, whereas claiming an innocent result (or "no result") would not give him any good reason for us to vote somebody besides himself.

[Javert]

Rhinox,

I

was

voting Twistedspoon yesterday at deadline. I

did

want him lynched yesterday.

The reason Twistedspoon was kept alive, to the best of my knowledge, is so that he would have a result today. That way,

if

he is Town, we have a result to use. And if he is scum, then hopefully his "result" will be informative later in the game. I personally did not find that reasoning persuasive enough for me to move my vote elsewhere, but it was obvious this was generally the justification used yesterday.

Feel free to read over Twistedspoon and decide if you think he is scum. But as I have said, the fact that he is claiming a guilty result does

not

make him more likely to be Town, as Duplicity has already explained.

[Javert]

The reason Twistedspoon was kept alive, to the best of my knowledge, is so that he would have a result today.

that makes no sense

the same could have applied to ender, who you shot :/

...

Yes,

I

shot ender241. That was

my

decision, not the decision that necessarily voice of the Town. Exactly what point are you trying to make with this post?

[Javert]

I said the reason

other

players left you alive is so you would claim an investigation today. I, frankly, could care less.

[Javert]

Here's an idea: wait for Locke Lamora to catch up before you consider hammering. That said, seeing as deadline is in less than a week, hopefully Locke Lamora will do that fairly soon.

[Javert]

Game seems to be balanced fairly, though I am curious as to why the mafia had a roleblocker when the only night action the Town had was a 1-Shot Cop. I can only presume it was included to make the mafia assume there must be more town actors at Night.