Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[Necessary Evil]

Alright, this thing is finally starting! Have fun, everybody!

[Necessary Evil]

Erratus Post-24:Looks like it could be RVS but isn't. I'd say a serious poke at another player because it asks a rather damning question:

Why do you want us to let our guard down, Ender?

. Followed by a vote on Ender.

Ender Post-34: Counter votes Erratus, calls him an idiot.

Early distancing attempt.

Oso's feigned confusion over EA's post doesn't make sense. He says EA's vote looks like an RVS vote, but why? Timing. That's the only possible explanation, but it's not a very good one. RVS can begin or end at any time. It looks to me like EA took something somebody said pregame and made something serious out of it. There's no "contradiction" there. EA should be getting a gold star for moving the game forward right away, not a vote.

The case on Ender is even worse. That was just a random vote. Any suspicion regarding that vote depends on EA being scum, and it's too early to tell that especially since Oso's case on EA is so weak.
VOTE: Oso

I can see EA scum, and I don't see anyone better right now, so

Vote: Erratus Apathos

The lack of an explanation for this vote does not sit well with me.

[Necessary Evil]

Wow. I couldn't get on the site at all yesterday and now I'm greeted with a ton of new content. I'm getting caught up now.

[Necessary Evil]

@NE and Maxous.

Of course it is weak and speculative. Less than 3 full pages and 24 hours into the game.

NE may be right and Erratus deserves a gold star for basically ending the RVS the first post. At this moment, I don't agree but no way to prove it or even know if it is true. Even speculation as to why he did it relies on what you personally think of the post and what you think of EA's motivation behind it.

But, you have to start somewhere.

You're absolutely correct. That doesn't mean that you're not scum or that I shouldn't find your post suspicious. I still don't see any reason not to take EA's vote seriously other than timing. The tipping point was really your case on Ender on very

very

thin reasoning.

What makes Oso's attempt to move the game forward worse than mine?

Answering this quesiton would be just repeating my case.

How can you put TS in the town column based on like 2 RVS posts?
Was Oso scum or town in the game where he pre-empted questions?

Oso was scum.
As I said before, I get a slight town read on TS because his frustration about voting the mod instead of real RVS seemed like genuine town trying to get the game going.
About voting EA, it was mostly just following you, and nobody else really stood out.
With his new post though, he says "Fair enough" to what's obviously a joke like it's completely serious. And then "What "definition" forces my vote to be a joke or RVS vote?" Seems to deny that he was serious, yet later he says it was attempting to move the game forward. Next he seems pretty eager to vote klazam, for something that a lot of people say(mostly random). It could be scum hopping off their buddy at first opportunity.
Farside: Why single out TS? Javert, Klazam, Saurus and to a lesser extent Juls haven't really said much either.

I can't seem to find who you are responding to. Who's EA read are you sheeping? What is your read on that person and why?

I'm not liking the heat that Javert was receiving for not answering quesitons. That's a playstyle issue, not an alignment issue. Unforunatley, townies will jump all over people for this sort of thing all the time and it's easy for scum to hide among them. So, let's see; farside22 wasn't really voting Javert for not answering questions, so I'm not counting her. Twistedspoon has been active lurking for the most part and he voted Javert, so he might be scum. Prosaurus is very similar: he voted for Javert and he has been active lurking. ender241 voted Javert for not answering questions and Oso makes a compelling case for ender, but I don't think Oso is town and I'm not going to sheep his read whithout a strong town read on him. ender posted this:

You have misinterpreted what i'm saying, i'm saying he's either doing one of three things.

1. He is scum and basically trying to make himself stay alive for ages.

2. He's just a normally townie who's got himself into a sticky situation.

3. He's a DayVig and just a total dick who can't be assed posting and is just being a total dick about the whole game.

Thats what i'm trying to say, i don't want dicks in the game.

This looks like a scummy reaction to Oso's vote. He's trying to scramble away from what he said before:

UNVOTE: VOTE: Javert Start answering questions, i doubt your a DayVig.

Basically your using "Day-vig" as your excuse to say what you want.

Also, ender thinks there are three possibilities regarding Javert and only one of them invovles him being scum, why vote? Between the vote and his posting, his behavior does not suggest the other two possibilities. Then he unvotes and votes me for lurking for a whole day (oh, for shame!). That's rather suspicious.

It's hard to pick between Twistedspoon, Prosaurus, and ender, but ender is just enough ahead that he deserves my vote.
UNVOTE: VOTE: ender241

[Necessary Evil]

Prosaurus is very similar: he voted for Javert and he has been active lurking.

I haven't actually. I have more of a life than being on Mafia 24/7.

I didn't say you've been lurking. I said you've been

active

lurking, as in posting but not really contributing.

The strong language here ("Just vote him already godamnit!") is excellent evidence that Ender was honest in his suspicion of Javert. Scum rarely ever get this emotional about getting their suspects lynched. Especially since I doubt scum would be antagonizing a claimed dayvig like this. Ender is town.

Not necessarily. Some scum will put more emotion in their posting just to give themselves a stronger town vibe. It's risky to dismiss someone as a suspect for that reason.

NE's vote on Ender is definitely bothering me. It feels like he's trying to get Ender lynched on a technicality rather than scummy behaviour.

Also, ender thinks there are three possibilities regarding Javert and only one of them invovles him being scum, why vote? Between the vote and his posting, his behavior does not suggest the other two possibilities.

This is what I mean. Even thought Ender thought Javert was scum, he listed possibilities where Javert was town. NE attacks Ender for doing so, suggesting that A) a townie would not vote for a player with only a one in three chance of being scum, and B) a townie would not push such low odds when he had earlier been suggesting only the possibility that Javert was scum. However, both of those claims fall on their face when you actually look at what happened! Ender obviously did not weight the three possibilities equally. He clearly favored the scum-Javert situation, and felt the town-Javert situations were unlikely. This should be apparent to anyone taking an honest look at Ender, but it didn't occur to NE.

Why didn't it? I suspect it's because NE was looking for a reason to jump on the Ender wagon, rather than because he was looking for evidence of Ender's alignment. As such, that's where I'm moving my vote.

You're totally misunderstanding my case. I'm not really surprised that you did because my post really wasn't well written. I spent 1.5-2 hours working on it because of all the content that was posted. I didn't really proofread it carefully because I had already put so much time in and I had other things I needed to do.

It's not clear that ender had three possibilities in mind when he voted for Javert. He didn't post anything indicating the other two possibilities until after Oso voted for him. That combined with his vote for me when I'd only been absent for one day says to me that he is scum overreacting to the heat he'd been receiving.

NE:

You're absolutely correct. That doesn't mean that you're not scum or that I shouldn't find your post suspicious. I still don't see any reason not to take EA's vote seriously other than timing. The tipping point was really your case on Ender on very very thin reasoning.

Have you been reading the same game I have? Many people seem to be going off of thin reasoning for their votes.

Well, of course. What's important in those situations are why said reasoning is thin. In that case, Oso was attatching ender to EA based on a joke vote and a bad case on EA.

I don't like NE's case either. Many people are going on what they can find whether small or minor. Also if he still thinks Oso is scummy why change his vote from Oso to Ender?
@NE: why change your vote? Do you think both are scum together and why?

I don't try to tie people together until at least one of them is already dead. Oso is less scummy than Twistedspoon, Prosaurus, and ender right now.

NE: The part of the post you were talking about was in response to Oso, and it's old stuff. Don't see why you bring it up now, because IIRC, you've post between then and now. I think Oso's town right now.

No, I hadn't seen that post before then. I thought it might be him, but I wasn't sure.

"Also, ender thinks there are three possibilities regarding Javert and only one of them invovles him being scum, why vote?"
Probabilities are pretty useless in mafia. Sure, two out of 3 situations have him as town, that doesn't mean he's more likely to be town.

I brought that up because it looked to me like he invented the other two possibilities when he was under pressure. I don't see why he would be campaigning for Javert so hard if he genuinely thought there was a strong possibility that Javert was town. If that possibility is weak, how does that justify his defense?

[Necessary Evil]

For the record, I think Javert should shoot whoever he wants. I don't think shooting whoever gets the most votes is the correct way to play a vig.

The implication I got was the he voted because Javert was "being a dick". He made an excuse for him.

Why would ender make an excuse for Javert?

I don't understand the reasoning for sudden wagon on ender. maybe I'll figure it out in the processing, but if someone can give me the bullet point run down I'd apreciate it.

I won't speak for everybody, but my reasons are: he voted for Javert for not answering questions, he overreacted in a scummy fashion towards Oso's vote by coming up with two more possibilities about Javert that were not evident from his earlier posting and do not fit with a vote, and voting for me for lurking when I'd only been absent for a day.

Do you guys want me to claim?

If two people say they would vote you/hammer, then you should claim.

Of course scum can feign emotion, but does Ender's emotion look even the slightest bit feigned? To me it's very obviously legitimate, it fits like a glove with his anti-Javert play and makes sense given that he was saying this to Oso who at the time was also upset with Javert's play. I don't see any evidence that his emotion is fake, nor any scum motive for him to have this emotion. Thus, he is town.

I don't have any specific reason to think that his emotion is feigned. I think it's risky to label him as town based on that. I need something more solid.

Why does it matter that Ender didn't post the other possibilities? He clearly favored the Javert-scum theory, so kinda obviously his posting is gonna be biased towards mentioning that theory.

It looks to me like he thought he was in trouble and made those other two possibilities up after the fact as a defense.

Where are you getting "I'd only been absent for one day" from? There's more than 48 hours between your iso 1 and 2.

Oh, come on, EA! Do you really want to nit pick over something like this? I posted on Friday, wasn't even on the site on Saturday, and posted again on Sunday, so to me at the time, it was one day. What difference does it make that it was technically two days? That's still suspiciously premature to vote for lurking. We clearly didn't have a lurking problem at the time. He even said that he just picked me because I was the lowest on the activity overview. That's not scumhunting. He used a technicallity that doesn't even remotely prove the case he was making in order to excuse his vote.

[Necessary Evil]

Good game so far. Keep it up!

I brought that up because it looked to me like he invented the other two possibilities when he was under pressure. I don't see why he would be campaigning for Javert so hard if he genuinely thought there was a strong possibility that Javert was town. If that possibility is weak, how does that justify his defense?

But even though he didn't think Javert was town, there were still two possibilities for him being town. Not thinking them likely doesn't mean they don't exist.

Thank you for proving my point for me. ender didn't think Javert was town when he voted for him (clearly) and made up the two town possibilities to cover his ass.

I don't try to tie people together until at least one of them is already dead. Oso is less scummy than Twistedspoon, Prosaurus, and ender right now.

But you still think Oso is scummy right? That is what I read.
Why is what ender did scummier then Oso to switch your vote to ender?

At the time of that post I did, but Oso is looking more town by the post. ender jumped on Javert in a situation that is easy for scum to do so, then he tried to back off from it in a rather transparent fashion.

Why does it matter that Ender didn't post the other possibilities? He clearly favored the Javert-scum theory, so kinda obviously his posting is gonna be biased towards mentioning that theory.

It looks to me like he thought he was in trouble and made those other two possibilities up after the fact as a defense.

What? How would making up those possibilities constitute a defense? What attack does that post defend him from? To me it just looks like he's considering all the possibilities.

The post containing the new possibilities was posted in reply to Oso's case and vote. That's what he was defending.

Look at 138: "Start answering questions, i doubt your a DayVig." Ender used the D word. No not dayvig, the other one. Doubt. He

doubts

Javert is a dayvig. Not he's completely certain Javert isn't one. There's really no inconsistency here.

Okay, but it's never clear that ender was thinking that Javert was town at that time.

I very strongly disagree that Ender's lurker hunting was not scumhunting. You're right in that the activity overview isn't really sufficient to determine who's a lurker and who's not, but it's a recent addition that hasn't been fully explored, and I can see where someone would make the mistake of assuming you can find lurkerscum just using it. I really think that's what Ender did here.

It fits in with the whole suspicious pattern of behaviour he was in after Oso voted for him. He had to vote for somebody besides Javert and he couldn't fake a good case so he went after a pseudo-lurker.

I would say I don't know what to think of that except I do. I think it smells. If scum, he only has to sell one innocent that can easily be killed later. He doesn't get caught in the confirming more townies than scum can kill loop.

I was thinking we should give him one night and decide what to do with him later, but this is a good point. I'd like to hear more discussion on this.

First, he says he thinks the votes on ender are "ridiculous", but later on(when there's a wagon) he votes ender for including possibilities of javert being town, which as I have said multiple times, even though there are more possibilities of him being town, doesn't mean he is. The one where he's scum could still be more probable.

For the first point, my point was that Oso's case on ender was too thin and too dependant on EA being scum when the EA case was bad. That's a far cry from "he says he thinks the votes on ender are 'ridiculous'". The second point indicates that you're not understanding my case.

indeed, NE has gone under the radar for too long

I'm fine with this wagon. My vote on Javert is utterly redundant anyways now that his wagon is gone and he's claimed :/

VOTE: NE

Twistedspoon is still active lurking for the most part and he's now sheeping Me=Weird's terrible vote on bad reasoning. I'm not "under the radar" just because I don't post as much as some people.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Twistedspoon

[Necessary Evil]

Missed these from last time:

Why would ender make an excuse for Javert?

Sorry, I was referring to EA making an excuse for Ender

Okay, same question. Why would EA make excuses for ender?

For the record, I think Javert should shoot whoever he wants. I don't think shooting whoever gets the most votes is the correct way to play a vig.

Why is that not the correct way to do it?

Let's just say that I don't have much faith in the democratic process. A vig can kill whomever they think is scum without having to convince a majority of players. Really the best way to play a vig is to kill problem players like VIs, lurkers, etc. It sounds like that's what Javert is planning on doing anyway.

I don't really have anything to say about the new content. What happened to all that activity we've been getting?

[Necessary Evil]

@EA: I'm surprised that you were grilling Klazam over lurking after the last game the three of us were in (it's completed, so no worries). At least he posted that he was V/LA this time. Why are you attacking him over it now?

@Rhinox: So you think ender is town based on his meta. How can we tell if he is scum?

@Maxous: PATIENCE! lets take care of obv scum twistedspoon first, then we can work out which one of {

Javert

, Oso, farside22, Me=Weird, Necessary Evil} were scum on the easy to wagon ender. EA and ender are both town btw.

Anybody on that list sticking out to you at the moment?

I'm here.

/end procrasination

I promise that i'm reading the game now, and will post ASAP

Heh. You come back right when we're thinking of day vigging you. Perfect timing?

@EA You seem to be defending Ender alot. Mind to post your main reasons you think he's town?

Based on the last game I played with Klazam, he has amazing timing for that sort of thing. You can't assume that he is scum because of it.

Thank you for proving my point for me. ender didn't think Javert was town when he voted for him (clearly) and made up the two town possibilities to cover his ass.

No no no. What I'm saying is that there is nothing to suggest that he made that up. The possibilities existed then, and he was probably aware of them, he just didn't think them likely. I don't see what makes you think he made them up.

It's not evident from his earlier posting that he ever thought that Javert was town, and if he was really thinking that Javert was town then it doesn't make sense to vote for him.

For the first point, my point was that Oso's case on ender was too thin and too dependant on EA being scum when the EA case was bad. That's a far cry from "he says he thinks the votes on ender are 'ridiculous'". The second point indicates that you're not understanding my case.

Really? I thought you used that word. Still, you were pretty critical of it all. Since I'm not understanding it, maybe you should clarify it for me?

After Oso voted for ender, ender posted about his theory that there were three possibilities regarding Javert (even though there is no indication that he was thinking that at all until that post). Then he votes me for "lurking" when I hadn't been absent long enough to be considered lurking by any reasonable standard. That looks to me like he was trying to find a vote so he would look more townish. Those two things together indicate a scummy overreaction to the pressure he was getting.

NE: I don't' care for his vote or reasoning for voting ender. He does explain his reasoning to EA and further reasoning.
Do you think everyone on the Javert wagon is scum? One? more? My biggest complaint would be that I don't see many suspects for various reasons from him.
He thought Oso was scum and that changed. Now he has a list of 4 all of who was on Javert's wagon, but I don't see further reasons (except ender) for suspecting them.
Now he votes for TS.
meh read = null/uncertain
NE: Is your TS vote in conclusion with the Javert wagon. What about Pro?

I wasn't suspecting you even though you voted for Javert because I thought that your reasoning was decent. ender stuck out from TS and Prosaurus at the time, but now TS is about as obvscum as you can get on day one. Prosaurus is still not really scumhunting, but overall TS is an order of magnitude worse.

[Necessary Evil]

I won't have time to write a full post until tomorrow, so just a couple of thoughts:
a) Javert needs to post ASAP.
-and-
b) TS is just dripping with scum, but his claim fits with his speculation about a one-shot themed game and it looks like we're going to give him at least a night anyway. I wouldn't loose any sleep if he was killed/lynched, but if the rest of you are moving on, I'm fine with that.
UNVOTE: Twistedspoon

[Necessary Evil]

@EA: I'm surprised that you were grilling Klazam over lurking after the last game the three of us were in (it's completed, so no worries). At least he posted that he was V/LA this time. Why are you attacking him over it now?

What are you talking about? Klazam didn't lurk in Mini 1133 at all. He had 59 posts which is pretty damn good considering he was only alive for roughly nine RL days. For comparison this game has been active for roughly eight RL days and he's made ten posts. Half of which are worthless saporovirusy fluff.

Well, I disagree with you about the other game and your standard for lurking is odd. But that's neither here nor there. I looked at his ISO and you do have a point about him. I was going to say that ten posts in eight days can hardly be described as lurking, but as you pointed out, a lot of those posts don't contribute much. I get the feeling that something is up with him, but I can't really put my finger on it yet. It was definitely odd to me that he was soft with TS before his claim.

@Rhinox: So you think ender is town based on his meta. How can we tell if he is scum?

No, I've mentioned nothing of meta. I don't believe I've ever played with ender before. The comments I made regarding him are based on play in this game only.

I see. If you have no prior history with him, how can you assume that he is an easy target for scum rather than scum himself? Are you finding any of his play scummy?

Javert's shot followed by a no-lynch.

1)Get's us a flip and confirms that Javert has at least the ability to daykill.
2)Avoids outing any other roles. I found (I think) what looks to be a breadcrumb to yet another role (and no, I'm not going to point it out), we keep this up and we are going to have to have a mass-claim here on D1 simply because we seem to be hitting all PRs.
3)It allows our three claimed roles to go ahead and use those roles.
4)Downside, we lose the lynch and information we might get by purposely taking someone to a lynch but I believe that will be offset, in this game at least, by allowing what we have showing to go ahead. Normally, I wouldn't even consider a no-lynch D1. This game is turning out to be fairly unique in my experience.

Oh, that's no fun. Besides, we lose the advantage behind having a vig if we don't lynch as well as kill. Also it allows the scum to hide very easily when no-lynch is the plan. How will Javert decide who to kill with no serious discussion?

I think one of Prosaurus and Me=Weird is scum. I don't think both of them are because of the way Me=Weird posted a big case against Prosaurus and seems to be pushing for his lynch. I'll look at them both and decided who to vote for later.

[Necessary Evil]

V/LA until Saturday.

Duly Noted... Or something like that.

[Necessary Evil]

Necessary evil is still a scum read, but more minor,

and nobody else seems to think so.

First, I don't see why your read on me would weaken, and second, the bold part shouldn't matter to town at all. This is nudging me towards MW scum.

Juls:
a. I

didn't

think he was town. I've said already that I felt his scummy actions overweighed the gut town feel. All that happened was the claim changed that.

Basically what I am getting from this is "my gut said he was town but everyone else thought he was scummy so I bandwagoned". I like my vote.

I'm thinking the same thing. I don't see how having a gut town read on somebody means that MW didn't think that ender was town.

I don't see why Javert shot ender after his exchange with Twistedspoon. It looked to me like Javert was getting answers that would result in a scum read.

I dissaprove of the mod confirming that Javert was one-shot.

EA's case on Oso seems too thin to me this late in the game. I really need to examine it more carefully. I don't really have time for it now.

Maxous, can you please consolidate why you think I'm scum into one post. Thanks.

I've posted like this as scum before (but not with this account). This is desperation. He's being semi conciliatory while trying to defend. Strong scum read.

I believe Juls mason claim. I've had a town read on her for a while and that would explain my odd feelings about Klazam. I'm really rolling my eyes at her vote on me, though. I've been V/LA for almost a week, which she is failing to take into account. If you check the other game I'm in, I posted that I was V/LA there, too, so I'm not making it up to lurk in this game. I think she's overestimating how often I should be posting because this is has been a very active game. I've certainly posted my fair share of content, IMO.

VOTE: Me=Weird
I have a strong scum read on MW now (as described earlier in this post). I would still be up for lynching TS, though, but that seems to be still off the table. I'm thinking that Prosaurus is probably town because I don't see why MW would push so hard to lynch his own partner. I need to examine EA's case on Oso more carefully which I will get to tomorrow. Those are my thoughts for now.

MOD: I don't think you need to prod ender because he is dead.

[Necessary Evil]

First, I don't see why your read on me would weaken, and second, the bold part shouldn't matter to town at all. This is nudging me towards MW scum.

It didn't weaken, I got stronger ones, which made it weaker comparatively. The bold part was regarding lynching you. Obviously I can't lynch you on my own.

Your explanation is somewhat plausible, but the phrasing you used in the part I bolded suggest a scum mind set. For reference:

Necessary evil is still a scum read, but more minor,

and nobody else seems to think so.

Why even bring up the bold part if I'm just lower on your scum list? You're suggesting the possibility of my lynch without any commitment. You're looking for people to respond with support for my lynch.

I've posted like this as scum before (but not with this account). This is desperation. He's being semi conciliatory while trying to defend. Strong scum read.

Are you just twisting everything so it

could

be scummy, or are you an idiot? How is that desperation? I wanted why he thought I was scum into one post because I wanted to make sure there weren't things I hadn't responded to. Why do you want to lynch TS? Do you disbelieve his claim? Why? And do you know how exceedingly dumb and moronic it is to use connections before there's been a scum flip? Do you ever consider that you're

wrong?

See how you're overreacting here? That shows that you're confrontational in your defense most of the time. Maxous has been on you for quite a while and, despite your best efforts, you can't shake him. The way you posted indicates that you know Maxous is town and want to please him so he will vote somebody else.

My strongest scum read is on TS, his claim is easily faked, and cop and doc are the most common fake claims, so I would be happy to lynch him today. Given his comment about a one-shot theme game, his claim has enough credit that giving him one night is not a bad idea. Otherwise, I would be campaigning for his lynch.

The only connection I mentioned in that post was between you and Prosaurus. I mentioned it specifically because in my last content post I made up to that point I said that I was deciding between voting you and him. You two can't be scum together because of the strong attack you made on him. It doesn't make sense for you to do that when Prosaurus wasn't under enough suspicion if you two are partners.

Yes, I will think I am wrong if I have a reason. Do you have one?

NE: I don't care much for NE's reason's for finding MW scummy. Their weak tells (on is a stregth at best). He has found TS scummy most of the game and he defended his reasoning for his vote on ender well. However I see no strong scum reads coming from him.

I don't expect everybody to understand why I suspect MW. It's based mainly on the way he questioned Maxous. It's something I've done as scum before and I can see MW doing it in the situation he is in. It surprises me that you express this reservation and are still comfortable enough with the MW wagon to vote him in the same post.

As promised, I looked over EA's case on Oso. It's not an awful case by any means, but it's very easy for Oso to be town and torn on ender and TS because of their claims. I don't feel that there is a strong reason to think that Oso is lying and I think scum Oso would be careful enough to not express a marginally contradictory opinion like that. Like I said before, Oso has looked a lot more town to me after the early game. I'd much rather lynch MW or TS today.

[Necessary Evil]

Oh, I almost forgot: Javert is basically mod confirmed one-shot vig so there is no point behind speculating about his role.

[Necessary Evil]

I find your lack of push on anyone not already mentioned disturbing and would like a full view on everyone in the game from you.

No. A run down on everybody in the game does not help the town. I am not telling the scum who the safe night kills are. I'm going to mention players and issues that are important to discuss and that I have something to say about.

Why even bring up the bold part if I'm just lower on your scum list? You're suggesting the possibility of my lynch without any commitment. You're looking for people to respond with support for my lynch.

Can you rephrase this, because I'm having a hard time seeing what you're saying.

You brought up the possibility of my lynch to see if there was any support for it. If it was clear that I was lynchable you could vote me with less risk. At least that's what I think you were doing there. I don't see another reason why you would mention other people's opinion on me.

See how you're overreacting here? That shows that you're confrontational in your defense most of the time. Maxous has been on you for quite a while and, despite your best efforts, you can't shake him. The way you posted indicates that you know Maxous is town and want to please him so he will vote somebody else.

I'm not overreacting. I am saying what your post made me think. Is there something wrong with being confrontational? Despite that Maxous has been tunneling on me, I do think he's town, and of course I want him to move his vote.

There is nothing wrong with being confrontational. There is something wrong with being confrontational and aggressive most of the time and then being conciliatory towards somebody who is stuck on you. I think you'd be just as confrontational towards Maxous if you were town.

My strongest scum read is on TS

VOTE: Me=Weird

??

If you're not going to bother to read the explanation I gave in that post then I'm not going to bother explaining it again.

@NE, I am not concerned with your V/LA. It has more to do with the fact that you have a whopping 15 posts. Of those 15, one was your intro post, another was saying you were getting caught up, another was your V/LA post, and finally a post saying Javert was one-shot vig. So that REALLY brings your total of any substance to 11. To put it in perspective, here are the other post counts:
ender (31) - been dead for a while
EA(41)
farside (52)
Javert (37)
Juls (42)
Klaz (25)
Max (36)
M=W (26)
Oso (60)
Pro (42)
Rhinox (37)
TS (66)

Hell, even the mod has 17. The only person who doesn't have TWICE as many posts as you is M=W who is the leading wagon and Klazham (who I obviously am not even looking at).

Post counts are a terrible way to measure contribution. Would you be thinking any differently if I had posted lots of smaller posts instead? I've contributed my fair share of

content

and I will stand by that. If you're stuck on post counts that badly then there is nothing else to talk about.

[Necessary Evil]

VOTE: Twistedspoon
Wow, this is going to be an easy lynch. Cop sanity is guaranteed in normals and framer-type roles aren't allowed, so TS must be lying. Look at his ISO and give me

one

reason why he is town. There's, like, a million why he is scum. Voting Javert over playstyle, active lurking, role fishing, sheeping MW's terrible vote and then camping it through the rest of they day... Need I go on? And, yeah, I agree with Maxous that the speed of my wagon is highly suspect.

[Necessary Evil]

And, yeah, I agree with Maxous that the speed of my wagon is highly suspect.

how is it suspect when I have a guilty result

we've already lost one one-shot cop and we can't afford to lose another

I investigated you and got guilty. That's all I know, but the conclusions are pretty clear

so unless you can prove that the mafioso have a framer or I am an insane cop without knowing so then you're mafioso

imo, I think all cops are sane unless the mechanics usually have a theme of such, like dethy

Scum will want to jump on my wagon because it's relatively safe. It's hard to tell the townies and scum apart because townies will want to test your guilty claim. Like I said before, normal games have rules that guarantee cop sanity, but after reviewing the rules, framers appear to be allowed. I still think that you are lying because you were so scummy yesterday.

Anybody in particular?
Also : Are you confident Twistedspoon is lying about this? What do you think about the possibilty of a mafia framer?

Well, Quilford is confirmed town, so that leaves Rhinox and farside. Either or both could be scum. They've both looked like town to me so far, but farside is a little scummy because she jumped on the MW wagon while attacking my vote on him in the same post.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that he is lying. See my explanation above.

[Necessary Evil]

what on earth-

I got a guilty, so why aren't we lynching?

Why are you trying to rush through the day? Following a cop result with little other discussion is pretty bad for town.

I still think NE's the guilty one, I've just played a game with him in which he used a similar "I'm not scum so you must be" response to a guilty on him (he was scum, and he won *shakes fist*).

And what exactly do you expect his response as town to be? "I'm not scum so you must have misread your investigation result"?

No, no, he states "I'm not scum so you must be" in some way when a more townie player would just jump straight into the arguments against their accuser. Here's the quote from the aforementioned game where he was scum

I fall off your scum list and then you "investigate" me instead of your other suspect. I know I'm not scum so you must be.

and from this game

Wow, this is going to be an easy lynch. Cop sanity is guaranteed in normals and framer-type roles aren't allowed, so TS must be lying.

I don't know, I just see the same kind of simplistic arrogance shining through.

Why did you snip out the part where I explained why TS is scum? I've been on him the whole game. You're comparing two games/situations that are quite different and then cutting out the part of my post that gave you what you wanted.

I'm really looking forward to the explanation behind Duplicity's reads because they're not clear from those notes, especially since the notes are not organized.

[Necessary Evil]

Really why do you believe it?
Also my suspicion of TS yesterday and his post (which I believe is a scum slip) = not buying it doesn't make sense to you.

Exactly. You had all this suspicion of TS from yesterday.
He comes out with a guilty. You instantly vote for NE, despite your suspicion. Because TS suspected NE yesterday.
TS says 'I think' he is mafia, immediatly correcting it as 'I know' unless there is a framer but he is confident about it.
And that is all it takes for you to change your mind about voting NE? It's suspect. You changed your stance too easily over little.

It's not little at all. TS is doing nothing today besides trying to get me lynched. That indicates a high degree of confidence in his scum read on me. There's no reason for him to think that there is a framer, or for anybody else to think that. Cop sanity is guaranteed in normals. TS was expressing doubt in his guilty result to give him an out. When I flip town, he'll insist that there is a framer or something that altered his result. He knows he'll be lynched if he doesn't give himself some kind of out.

point.
At Maxous and anyone else in the game. Have you ever seen a person claim cop and question it?

Yes.
And by "question it" you mean wondering if there is a framer? How can a cop know for sure?
Even if you are a cop the only people that know for sure are mafia. There is usually a possibility that your results can be manipulated, unless the set-up states otherwise.
The reason I have'nt voted NE is in case there is a framer. With TS voting NE yesterday it is feasible the mafia could accurately guess who TS would investigate.
That being said I currently don't think so, but the possibility is worth exploring.

Do you have any reason to think there is a framer? Does anybody? How do you suggest we explore this possibility?

WTF WHY IS NE NOT BEING LYNCH WITH A FUCKING PASSION YET!

Once again, why are you trying to rush through the day? Why do I have to be lynched right now?

I was going to explain to Rhinox why TS would fake a guilty today, but Duplicity and Javert have taken the words out of my mouth... or keyboard, or whatever. To everybody who wants to lynch me today: how could TS survive without claimig a guilty? What other plan could work for him and why?

[Necessary Evil]

Cop sanity is guaranteed in normals.

*bangs head against desk*

but you were the one arguing I could be insane only a few pages ago

What??? When? Where?

Once again, why are you trying to rush through the day? Why do I have to be lynched right now?

OMG classic scum tactic here - scum investigates as guilty, accuse attackers of trying to "rush through the day" to attempt to discredit them.

I think you're scum and there's virtually no way I'm voting anyone else today regardless of what is said. I see nothing wrong with lynching scum now. Its not rushing and its not too early.

It's bad to rush through the day because nobody who is currently voting for me is bothering to think through following TS today. You will notice, for example, that nobody has answered the question

how can scum TS survive without claiming a guilty?

Everybody should note how Rhinox is telling us that he's willing to shut his brain off and not only blindly follow someone who he was sure was scum, but to delcare him obvtown before I've even flipped:

I understand now, ender.

unvote, vote Twistedspoon

I suggest we park a noose around Twistedscum's neck.

Agreed.

Why say this, then not follow up with Maxous questions to you?
Instead you go back to TS as scum. What reason do you believe TS is scum?

Because Maxous was confused (or I am). This is what Maxous said:

@Rhinox: Because you called Ender an 'easy target' for scum to go after, but you never said who the scum are. Who is the opportunistic mafia?
TS was'nt voting for him(I think?)

But I didn't vote TS for being opportunistic, I voted TS for other reasons. I made a comment that ender was an easy target, but I wasn't ready to examine the ender wagon yet and look for if there was any opportunistic scum there or not (some town players lock on to easy wagons too!). I wanted to focus on TS, but max seems to think or imply that my TS vote doesn't make sense because it doesn't stem from the easy target ender premise. But rather it stems from the role speculating premise mentioned a few posts before.

I think you hit most of the reasons why I believe TS is scum in a later post.

[...]

These are iso 11-17. I dont see anything scummy here. Asking whether the investigation is night or day, i think is a good question, unlike asking if he was one-shot. He asked Javert why his claim occurred at that time, which is a fair question.


That's all of substance i could find in these. Rhinox, would you mind explaining to me why you pointed out these posts?

So you don't see #12 as role fishing, or how about

#16: To a townie, whether a 1-shot investigation is day or night doesn't matter, but to a scum role blocker for example, it would be beneficial to know.

(bolded to stand out for importance). And all the other speculating in every one of those posts is in itself a form of indirect role fishing, even 14 where he accuses someone else of role fishing then says "what did you expect etc..." it says A) he's already been thinking about what enders softclaim meant and pointed it out in thread and B) answering the "What did you expect" question just leads to more role speculation all around.

Here's my favorite post of yours:

I'm just slightly reluctant though. We've already outed 2 PRs today. I don't want a 3rd claim unless you guys think It's absolutely necessary that I do

Then I shall willingly do so

lol. I don't care what your claim is now. This post is scummy as hell.

You're scum and I want you lynched regardless of your claim.

But, hey, TS claims a guilty, so I guess his obvscum status doesn't matter anymore. We should lynch an innocent today and give TS another pass tomorrow when he insists there must have been a framer.

Seriously, why are none of you thinking this through?

There's no reason for him to think that there is a framer, or for anybody else to think that. Cop sanity is guaranteed in normals. TS was expressing doubt in his guilty result to give him an out. When I flip town, he'll insist that there is a framer or something that altered his result. He knows he'll be lynched if he doesn't give himself some kind of out.

He did'nt express doubt about the result.

Why did TS suggest that there might be a framer or that he might be insane? What does he gain? What does that do for the town?

Do you have any reason to think there is a framer? Does anybody? How do you suggest we explore this possibility?

Well I don't have a reason to but there was no point in rushing into a lynch without exploring the possibility. We're not short on time.

The only way to explore the possibiltiy is seeing if there is enough reasonable doubt about yourself being mafia

Yeah, keep playing both sides of the issue and not-so-subtly supporting the idea that there is a framer. That'll totally work for you and your scumbuddy TS.

[Necessary Evil]

I'm just going to keep posting this until people start answering it:

How could TS survive today without claiming a guilty?

The fact that I've posted this question twice and nobody has answered it is proof that none of you are thinking this through. Oh, and what is this case on me that I can't seem to find anywhere? You're all just sheeping the scummiest player. Awful, awful play from all of you. You should be ashamed!

[Necessary Evil]

No one can deny that even without my investigation, NE merited a lynch

Based on what? The awful reasoning MW gave for his vote that you sheeped? Does anybody have any reason to think I'm scum besides Twistedscum's result? You might want to push people to give their resons so you can find the scum that are on my wagon. It's going to be hell to figure that out without more detailed explanations.

These posts also clearly show I did not think of TS as obvscum at the end of the day as NE is now claiming. Thats a clear misrep on his part with the only purpose to try to discredit me. Makes me even more confident my vote is in the right spot.

I wasn't misrepping you. I was pointing out that you were very sure that TS was scum, even to the point that you didn't care about his claim, and now you're very sure that he is town based solely on his claim despite the evidence that he is faking it.

ummm...the same way he didn't get lynched yesterday maybe...?

This is an awful answer. The situations are completely different. A one-shot cop claim isn't going to buy him a free night like it bought him yesterday. You're not really considering the importance of this question. Look at TS's play today. He claims a guilty on me, waffles on it by suggesting that there might be a framer or he might be insane despite the fact that there is no evidence of either of these things, and does nothing for the rest of the day but push for my lynch. These facts suggest a guilty gambit. We have to consider what other strategy he could pursue as scum. If there are no sensible alternative, then we must seriously consider the idea that he is gambiting. We haven't even scratched the surface of the first step there so now we're just rushing to lynch the guilty target.

I want to revisit why it doesn't make sense for TS scum to try this gambit. The argument is, if scum force a mislynch today, then we would be in perpetual mylo for the rest of the game. This is IMO short sighted.

If TS is scum and this is a gambit, then TS has a 50% chance of not only getting lynched anyways, but also pretty much clearing a townie if his gambit fails (not a pro-town townie either, forcing a suboptimal nk). And a second scum could be lynched the second day. Even if his gambit succeeds, there is a 100% chance of lynching scum the next day.

The fact that you say TS has a 50% chance of getting lynched after I flip town tells me that you're not prepared for when I flip town. It suggests that his strategy of hinting that his "investigation" might not be accurate is working. We need to discuss this fully instead of jumping to the conclusion that I must be scum.

Your suggestion that I will be nightkilled after TS is lynched is WIFOM. Maxous's and Duplicity's idea that this is a bus is proof of that. You can't assume that scum can kill me when leaving me alive could cause the town to think that I'm scum.

OK, so now for the real tl;dr: I still stand by the fact that scum-TS and the scum team don't benefit from having TS claim a guilty on NE-town today. (small benefit under some assumption, huge misplay under others). Therefore, I believe the more likely scenario is that TS is telling the truth and NE is scum. If I'm being duped, I'm still happy to take the 1 for 1 because if this is a gambit we're likely to end up in mylo after 2 more lynches anyways even if scum is lynched today (regardless of who the scum is). Compared to had we not had a guilty today, under random lynching assumptions we'd have been even more likely to be in mylo or worse after 2 lynches (we would probably be stuck no lynching tomorrow to get to full lylo, due to the misvig - another reason why this would not be an optimal gambit for scum to try).

How can you be happy with lynching me when you have no plan or even basic discussion for when I flip town?

Ok. I think NE is scum. He's too aggressive and stuff. Er... Your role makes sense with the other roles (2 1-Shot cops instead of 1 normal cop) and with your posts. I'm not voting because that'd be a hammer, and Dupicity has requested for no one to hammer yet.

How can you find who the scum are on my wagon when people are using such poor reasoning against me and getting away with it?

[Necessary Evil]

UNVOTE: VOTE: Necessary Evil