Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[Javert]

Cute.

Maxous just recently said he was going to refrain voting for you to prevent you from being put at L-1. Therefore, even without my DayVig ability, you should consider yourself to effectively be at L-1. Believe it or not, I don't want to kill you if you are Town, and I am not going to DayVig you out of "pride" or my increasing annoyance with you. But continual refusal to claim in the hopes that you will be put at L-1 when there are obvious reasons for you to

not

be put at L-1 is not helping you.

[Maxous]

Actually,
@Javert: How are you going to go about this? Day-Vig somebody who is about to be lynched(effectively giving the town 2 lynches today) or will you use your personal discretion about who will be killed regardless of the amount of votes on him?

[Javert]

That will probably depend largely on the vote count and whether or not people are willing to unvote. As I said earlier, my DayVig

will not

reset the vote count. That said, the number required to lynch will be 7 both before and after the kill, but I would still rather not DayVig somebody if that is going to leave another player at L-1.

[Rhinox]

Back. Read through the posts I missed once but I do need some time to process.

I noticed Javert claimed day vig. Probably a gambit. I'm not too concerned about it if its not, as it seems like his shot would not end the day or change the number to lynch causing an inadvertant hammer.

I don't understand the reasoning for sudden wagon on ender. maybe I'll figure it out in the processing, but if someone can give me the bullet point run down I'd apreciate it.

[Oso]

@Rhinox

May main point is here: Basically boils down to what I see as slip. Several references, in my opinion, to him not believing Javert's claim but then acknowledging that he "..cant kill all off us."

My secondary reason: Javert posted here. Point #1 is close enough to what I was thinking of Ender's vote of Prosaurus that I didn't even try to put it into my own words really. Just quoted it and added agreement to it in my vote post.

EA has a post here worth looking at. Sheds a better light on Ender's actions.

At this point, I don't agree with EA's assessment though.

One other point of note. Ender may have made a soft claim here: Right before his NE vote

"I'll find out what he is tonight"

. For my part, I'm still processing that one. Could be awkward wording or an incomplete thought or a soft-claim. I haven't decided which one for myself yet.

It does look as if Ender is trying to draw Javert's kill right now though. I don't like that but until I think on it some, I have no opinion on it, not even a knee-jerk opinion of it.

[ender241]

Cute.

Maxous just recently said he was going to refrain voting for you to prevent you from being put at L-1. Therefore, even without my DayVig ability, you should consider yourself to effectively be at L-1. Believe it or not, I don't want to kill you if you are Town, and I am not going to DayVig you out of "pride" or my increasing annoyance with you. But continual refusal to claim in the hopes that you will be put at L-1 when there are obvious reasons for you to

not

be put at L-1 is not helping you.

VOTE: Javert Thats all i need, your obviously bluffing.

[Javert]

VOTE: Javert Thats all i need, your obviously bluffing.

Uh hunh.

It is pretty obvious that I would prefer to kill scum over stubborn Town, and right now you either one or the either. I had to "swallow my pride" (so to speak) to keep Oso in the game earlier; and now you need to do the same. If you are really Town, right now you are pursuing a course of action that is not helping the Town in any manner whatsoever. Although I will not kill you

for

being stubborn, being stubborn will not

save

you.

[Rhinox]

ender, why is Javert town if he's bluffing/gambiting/lying/whatever?

Is he town if he does have a day kill?

[ender241]

Point taken. I didn't think of it like that UNVOTE:

[Oso]

.. I had to "swallow my pride" (so to speak) to keep Oso in the game earlier; and now you need to do the same.
..

My apologies for that . I can go into more detail after the game if you want but you were basically on the receiving end of something that had very little to do with the game. Bad week.

That said, since we do have a way for scum to end the day before you can take a shot (self-voting at L-1), I don't see any way it can be avoided: You, and the rest of the thread (me included), have almost no choice but to hang the vigkill over the head of a player. At least until Javert's status has been confirmed.

[Rhinox]

ender, why is Javert

town

scum if he's bluffing/gambiting/lying/whatever?

Is he town if he does have a day kill?

is what I meant to say.

[Maxous]

That said, since we do have a way for scum to end the day before you can take a shot (self-voting at L-1), I don't see any way it can be avoided: You, and the rest of the thread (me included), have almost no choice but to hang the vigkill over the head of a player. At least until Javert's status has been confirmed.

I don't fully understand what you mean by "hang the vigkill over the head of a player"

I'm not saying we should put someone at L-1 now but it won't exactly be a disaster if Javert does'nt get an opportunity to shoot today. If a scum self-hammers..we have gotten rid of a mafia member. Happy days.
If used correctly it will be useful but we don't absolutly need it.

[ender241]

Do you guys want me to claim?

[Erratus Apathos]

The strong language here ("Just vote him already godamnit!") is excellent evidence that Ender was honest in his suspicion of Javert. Scum rarely ever get this emotional about getting their suspects lynched. Especially since I doubt scum would be antagonizing a claimed dayvig like this. Ender is town.

Not necessarily. Some scum will put more emotion in their posting just to give themselves a stronger town vibe. It's risky to dismiss someone as a suspect for that reason.

Of course scum can feign emotion, but does Ender's emotion look even the slightest bit feigned? To me it's very obviously legitimate, it fits like a glove with his anti-Javert play and makes sense given that he was saying this to Oso who at the time was also upset with Javert's play. I don't see any evidence that his emotion is fake, nor any scum motive for him to have this emotion. Thus, he is town.

You're totally misunderstanding my case. I'm not really surprised that you did because my post really wasn't well written. I spent 1.5-2 hours working on it because of all the content that was posted. I didn't really proofread it carefully because I had already put so much time in and I had other things I needed to do.

It's not clear that ender had three possibilities in mind when he voted for Javert. He didn't post anything indicating the other two possibilities until after Oso voted for him. That combined with his vote for me when I'd only been absent for one day says to me that he is scum overreacting to the heat he'd been receiving.

Why does it matter that Ender didn't post the other possibilities? He clearly favored the Javert-scum theory, so kinda obviously his posting is gonna be biased towards mentioning that theory.

Where are you getting "I'd only been absent for one day" from? There's more than 48 hours between your iso 1 and 2.

EA's repsonse to Me=Weird was not answering his question and looked like a dodge.

Whaaaaaaaaaaat? I didn't dodge shit from MW. Here's the post in question:

It doesn't deny that I'm serious, it confirms it in fact. I made that comment because Oso said my vote was "by definition" a joke/RVS vote, and I was baffled by him using that particular wording, especially when my vote wasn't actually a joke or RVS vote!

Huh, that seemed like you were saying it

was

a rvs post. I'll drop this one.
About "have no fear" vote, were you really thinking he wanted us to let our guard down, as opposed to just some catchy saying? Then, "fair enough" implies that you honestly believe he's going to save the town.

Yes that is how I originally interpreted that post. And no that's not at all what "fair enough" meant, it meant that I understood what he meant by "have no fear" and that I accepted my interpretation was wrong.

Or it could be town switching votes because his first case got disproven! What do you expect, me to stay on ender even after he debunked my argument?

How is reading too much into a joke post a case, and how is a response joke disproving it?

BECAUSE I THOUGHT HIS POST WAS AN ATTEMPT TO GET THE TOWN TO LET THE GUARD DOWN, AND HIS RESPONSE CLARIFIED THAT HE WAS ONLY BRAGGING. I'M TIRED OF EXPLAINING THIS.

Let's see...

He asked me if I really thought Ender wanted us to let our guard down. I answered that.

He asked me how I had a case on Ender. I answered that.

He asked me how Ender's response disproved my case. I answered that.

SO WHAT EXACTLY AM I NOT ANSWERING HERE?

EA defends Ender with the basis that scum don't get this emotional(they can fake it) or that he would be antagonising over a Day-Vog this much.
On the second point.. Javert seemingly suspects Ender(based off his vote). He claims Day-Vig, he says he is going to shoot. One would assume Ender is currently top of his list. Mafia Ender would be far more worried about Mr. Day Vig than Town Ender right at this moment.

See above for my response to scum faking emotion. Ender's emotion is clearly not fake.

As for scum being more worried about a dayvig claim, that's exactly my point! Why would scum see a player claim dayvig, and decide that it would be a fantastic idea to get into a gigantic fight with that player? Ender is clearly not worried about that! Hence, towntell.

[Oso]

I don't fully understand what you mean by "hang the vigkill over the head of a player"

I'm not saying we should put someone at L-1 now but it won't exactly be a disaster if Javert does'nt get an opportunity to shoot today. If a scum self-hammers..we have gotten rid of a mafia member. Happy days.
If used correctly it will be useful but we don't absolutly need it.

It's not inherently needed for me personally. I can't see any reason at all why scum would claim day-vig. It didn't make any sense to me when he made the claim that he might be scum doing it and when I thought on it, it still doesn't.

Javert has said that he does want to take a shot today. Granted, if we L-1 scum and they self-vote to prevent the shot, that's still good. 1 scum down.

Since I believe the claim, I can't see how it hurts us at all to not L-1 a player that is on his way to claim as it allows us to do both. Pressure before lynch/prevent the day from ending unexpectedly.

I'd have a problem doing that with someone under no or little pressure but in Ender's case, he's at L-2. You (I think it was you Maxous) indicated you were willing to vote but didn't want to L-1 him just yet.

If someone else indicated a willingness to vote Ender that could be read as the L-1 vote (you) and Hammer (other player). In that case, "hanging the vig kill over a player's head" has the same effect as an L-1 vote/Hammer imminent combo.

[ender241]

Do you guys want me to claim?

Again, i am willing to claim but only if required to. So do you guys want me too???

[Twistedspoon]

personally, no

however it may already be too late since you've already hinted that you're a PR :/

[Necessary Evil]

For the record, I think Javert should shoot whoever he wants. I don't think shooting whoever gets the most votes is the correct way to play a vig.

The implication I got was the he voted because Javert was "being a dick". He made an excuse for him.

Why would ender make an excuse for Javert?

I don't understand the reasoning for sudden wagon on ender. maybe I'll figure it out in the processing, but if someone can give me the bullet point run down I'd apreciate it.

I won't speak for everybody, but my reasons are: he voted for Javert for not answering questions, he overreacted in a scummy fashion towards Oso's vote by coming up with two more possibilities about Javert that were not evident from his earlier posting and do not fit with a vote, and voting for me for lurking when I'd only been absent for a day.

Do you guys want me to claim?

If two people say they would vote you/hammer, then you should claim.

Of course scum can feign emotion, but does Ender's emotion look even the slightest bit feigned? To me it's very obviously legitimate, it fits like a glove with his anti-Javert play and makes sense given that he was saying this to Oso who at the time was also upset with Javert's play. I don't see any evidence that his emotion is fake, nor any scum motive for him to have this emotion. Thus, he is town.

I don't have any specific reason to think that his emotion is feigned. I think it's risky to label him as town based on that. I need something more solid.

Why does it matter that Ender didn't post the other possibilities? He clearly favored the Javert-scum theory, so kinda obviously his posting is gonna be biased towards mentioning that theory.

It looks to me like he thought he was in trouble and made those other two possibilities up after the fact as a defense.

Where are you getting "I'd only been absent for one day" from? There's more than 48 hours between your iso 1 and 2.

Oh, come on, EA! Do you really want to nit pick over something like this? I posted on Friday, wasn't even on the site on Saturday, and posted again on Sunday, so to me at the time, it was one day. What difference does it make that it was technically two days? That's still suspiciously premature to vote for lurking. We clearly didn't have a lurking problem at the time. He even said that he just picked me because I was the lowest on the activity overview. That's not scumhunting. He used a technicallity that doesn't even remotely prove the case he was making in order to excuse his vote.

[Me=Weird]

I brought that up because it looked to me like he invented the other two possibilities when he was under pressure. I don't see why he would be campaigning for Javert so hard if he genuinely thought there was a strong possibility that Javert was town. If that possibility is weak, how does that justify his defense?

But even though he didn't think Javert was town, there were still two possibilities for him being town. Not thinking them likely doesn't mean they don't exist.

BTW why the heck should Me=Weird be attacking people?

I…what? This is mafia. The whole game is attacking people. Why did you write this?

nooo
that's rolefishing
what answer are you expecting? "I'm the cop"?

You do realize how close he is to being lynched, don't you? It's about time to ask for a claim.

I noticed Javert claimed day vig. Probably a gambit. I'm not too concerned about it if its not, as it seems like his shot would not end the day or change the number to lynch causing an inadvertant hammer.

Why do you think it would be a gambit? What would the point be?
If you want to find out why we're voting ender maybe you should read our posts?

personally, no

however it may already be too late since you've already hinted that you're a PR :/

Two things. 1. Why are you so against ender claiming/us finding stuff out about his role? 2. You're implying you would just take him at face value, ignoring possibilities of him being scum. Why are you so convinced of his towniness?

[farside22]

I don't try to tie people together until at least one of them is already dead. Oso is less scummy than Twistedspoon, Prosaurus, and ender right now.

But you still think Oso is scummy right? That is what I read.
Why is what ender did scummier then Oso to switch your vote to ender?


[quote="Juls]It's the way he is presenting his cases thats off to me. When he attacks someone he presents it to the town instead of attacking the person outright and asking them questions. Am I completely off my rocker or does anyone else see what I see?[/quote]
I don't see it

@Juls: It's not anti-town to agree with someone, I usually find scum using others views and buddying up in scum and I recall you doing that in our last game to another player (buddying up)
Nothing so far screams town reading you. Your case on Me=Weird doesn't make sense to me either.

I know some scum will gambit to look town. It's possible ender is scum with a gambit because he's at L-2 that he's hoping for someone to vote so as scum that he could hammer to neuter the claimed vig. But the first time doing it doesn't make sense as scum for there is no reason for the gambit.
hmmmmm,,,, I need to think on this a bit.


Maxous: You seemed like you had a theory on another player then dropped it and had a case on ender (that was already discussed) and EA. What is with the hmmm on TS then dropping it?

[Juls]

I noticed Javert claimed day vig. Probably a gambit. I'm not too concerned about it if its not, as it seems like his shot would not end the day or change the number to lynch causing an inadvertant hammer.

A scum gambit or town gambit? Why would we do that would little pressure on him at all? I didn't assume gambit but I rarely, if ever, gambit myself.

One other point of note. Ender may have made a soft claim here: Right before his NE vote "I'll find out what he is tonight". For my part, I'm still processing that one. Could be awkward wording or an incomplete thought or a soft-claim. I haven't decided which one for myself yet.

Let's be clear, that was a bit more than a soft claim. It was intended to be caught. It's kinda eating at me to be honest. It was so blatant.

I am in support of an ender full claim.

In other news, I reviewed a few of Me=Weird's games and have seen him post cases "to town" instead of "direct questioning" as town. But something is still off to me. I don't want to get tunnel vision on it though. I might do some more analysis on it later. It seems the focus is primarily on ender at the moment.

Mod: Please prod/replace Klazham

. He has given nothing and I would personally rather see a more active player if he isnt going to participate.

Preview Edit: @farside - See above about Me=Weird. I'm glad you at least commented on it. Which is more than what most did.

[Juls]

Why would

he

do that

with

little pressure on him at all?

Fixed. Me good at language english.

[Prosaurus]

I don't fully understand what you mean by "hang the vigkill over the head of a player"

I'm not saying we should put someone at L-1 now but it won't exactly be a disaster if Javert does'nt get an opportunity to shoot today. If a scum self-hammers..we have gotten rid of a mafia member. Happy days.
If used correctly it will be useful but we don't absolutly need it.

It's not inherently needed for me personally.

I can't see any reason at all why scum would claim day-vig.

It didn't make any sense to me when he made the claim that he might be scum doing it and when I thought on it, it still doesn't.

Javert has said that he does want to take a shot today. Granted, if we L-1 scum and they self-vote to prevent the shot, that's still good. 1 scum down.

Since I believe the claim, I can't see how it hurts us at all to not L-1 a player that is on his way to claim as it allows us to do both. Pressure before lynch/prevent the day from ending unexpectedly.

I'd have a problem doing that with someone under no or little pressure but in Ender's case, he's at L-2. You (I think it was you Maxous) indicated you were willing to vote but didn't want to L-1 him just yet.

If someone else indicated a willingness to vote Ender that could be read as the L-1 vote (you) and Hammer (other player). In that case, "hanging the vig kill over a player's head" has the same effect as an L-1 vote/Hammer imminent combo.

Because when he did it, he pretty much said he'd shoot whoever it was that put him at L-1 (Or hammered him if he can shoot in twilight.) So people wouldn't vote to avoid being Day Killed.

Do you guys want me to claim?

Again, i am willing to claim but only if required to. So do you guys want me too???

Why ask? If

you

want to claim, then claim. It seems you want to.

[neil1113]

Klazham is being prodded.

[Oso]

..
Because when he did it, he pretty much said he'd shoot whoever it was that put him at L-1 (Or hammered him if he can shoot in twilight.) So people wouldn't vote to avoid being Day Killed....

I think you aren't thinking deeply enough.

Javert was under NO pressure really at the time of his claim. 2 votes: farside and Twistedspoon (at least TS tried, he forgot to unvote first). There is no reason for him to claim simply to save his own skin at that point. It doesn't need saving.

He committed himself in his vote post to taking a shot today.

4 strong reasons there why his claim is not false:

• No reason, that I can think of, for scum to claim just out of the blue like that, especially not a day role where we can see the result in-thread.
  
• He has committed himself in such a way that he can't really back out of it. So he's not bluffing about being able to kill. He can day kill.
  
• He has shut off his options. Rarely (I mean as in never) have I personally seen scum shut off their options as completely as that this early in the game.
• He never does mention vigging anyone who votes him.

From where I stand right now, Javert is exactly what he claims to be.

If he was doing what you think he might be doing (and this is personal opinion here, others may have different views) I would have expected to see it when he was under much more pressure and he would have probably not use a day-vig claim it provable before death. Ender mentioned one: A Bomb. Another would be a Vengeful townie. Both of those are unprovable until lynch.