Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[Erratus Apathos]

I'm not scummy I tell ya! I'm town!!!!

Only one way to be certain of that.

Daykill: neil1113

[Erratus Apathos]

OMG, neil obviously gave himself the best role! SHENANIGANS!

Have no fear! Ender's here! VOTE: neil obvscum

Ender tells us to "have no fear". Having no fear in this game is tantamount to letting your guard down. Why do you want us to let our guard down, Ender?
VOTE: ender241

[Erratus Apathos]

OMG, neil obviously gave himself the best role! SHENANIGANS!

Have no fear! Ender's here! VOTE: neil obvscum

Ender tells us to "have no fear". Having no fear in this game is tantamount to letting your guard down. Why do you want us to let our guard down, Ender?
VOTE: ender241

You don't understand the situation, Erratus. With me being here we have no fear because i'm very skilled and very powerful.

Fair enough.

I'm unavailable for most of the rest of the day but I would like to point folks at Erratus' vote post here:

..
Ender tells us to "have no fear". Having no fear in this game is tantamount to letting your guard down. Why do you want us to let our guard down, Ender?
VOTE: ender241

and think on it. Or comment. Or don't. But any input would be welcome. What got me the most about it was it doesn't seem to be an RVS vote but it is the first 'real' post of the game so by definition, it can't be anything other than a joke/RVS vote. But it's not a joke or RVS vote. Look at the way it's worded.

The post itself is a contradiction.

WTF, there's no contradiction. What "definition" forces my vote to be a joke or RVS vote? We had a confirm stage where people posted with alignment knowledge. Those posts are analyzable, and that's exactly what I did, I analyzed them.

Oso's feigned confusion over EA's post doesn't make sense. He says EA's vote looks like an RVS vote, but why? Timing. That's the only possible explanation, but it's not a very good one. RVS can begin or end at any time. It looks to me like EA took something somebody said pregame and made something serious out of it. There's no "contradiction" there. EA should be getting a gold star for moving the game forward right away, not a vote.

The case on Ender is even worse. That was just a random vote. Any suspicion regarding that vote depends on EA being scum, and it's too early to tell that especially since Oso's case on EA is so weak.
VOTE: Oso

What makes Oso's attempt to move the game forward worse than mine?

Vote Twisted

Mostly a random vote, if you know what I mean. ;D

Hey all, how much experience do you have? I’m really shitty on D1, because I haven’t figured out how to play well on D1. I’m hoping that on this game, I’ll do much better.

We can all hope, now, can’t we?

What do you mean by "Mostly a random vote, if you know what I mean"? That's a weird qualifier. Why'd you tack it on to your vote?

UNVOTE: Ender
VOTE: Klazam

[Erratus Apathos]

About voting EA, it was mostly just following you, and nobody else really stood out.
With his new post though, he says "Fair enough" to what's obviously a joke like it's completely serious.

I'm saying "fair enough" because his post showed that my interpretation of his pregame comment was wrong.

And then "What "definition" forces my vote to be a joke or RVS vote?" Seems to deny that he was serious, yet later he says it was attempting to move the game forward.

It doesn't deny that I'm serious, it confirms it in fact. I made that comment because Oso said my vote was "by definition" a joke/RVS vote, and I was baffled by him using that particular wording, especially when my vote wasn't actually a joke or RVS vote!

Next he seems pretty eager to vote klazam, for something that a lot of people say(mostly random). It could be scum hopping off their buddy at first opportunity.

Or it could be town switching votes because his first case got disproven! What do you expect, me to stay on ender even after he debunked my argument?

[Erratus Apathos]

I'm saying "fair enough" because his post showed that my interpretation of his pregame comment was wrong.

So you are saying this wasn't JUST an Random Vote?

Right.

[Erratus Apathos]

It doesn't deny that I'm serious, it confirms it in fact. I made that comment because Oso said my vote was "by definition" a joke/RVS vote, and I was baffled by him using that particular wording, especially when my vote wasn't actually a joke or RVS vote!

Huh, that seemed like you were saying it

was

a rvs post. I'll drop this one.
About "have no fear" vote, were you really thinking he wanted us to let our guard down, as opposed to just some catchy saying? Then, "fair enough" implies that you honestly believe he's going to save the town.

Yes that is how I originally interpreted that post. And no that's not at all what "fair enough" meant, it meant that I understood what he meant by "have no fear" and that I accepted my interpretation was wrong.

Or it could be town switching votes because his first case got disproven! What do you expect, me to stay on ender even after he debunked my argument?

How is reading too much into a joke post a case, and how is a response joke disproving it?

BECAUSE I THOUGHT HIS POST WAS AN ATTEMPT TO GET THE TOWN TO LET THE GUARD DOWN, AND HIS RESPONSE CLARIFIED THAT HE WAS ONLY BRAGGING. I'M TIRED OF EXPLAINING THIS.

[Erratus Apathos]

EA: what do you think about the Rhinox/Oso discussion or the Juls/me discussion? Why no comments in regards to it?

I don't find either of those discussions meaningful to be honest.

Errastus - Please explain in 30 words or

more

why you felt ender's silly RVS vote was serious and/or a scumslip.

No. I'm sick of fucking explaining my attack on Ender. If you don't like my previous explanations then too damn bad, I'm not doing it any more.

PS: Just did a proper read. But, due to my lack of experience/skill, I'm lacking reads on anyone.

Playing the newb card to defend not scumhunting is the scummiest thing I've seen this whole game.

UNVOTE: Klazam
VOTE: Prosaurus

[Erratus Apathos]

I don't understand why anyone would doubt a dayvig claim, it's a 100% confirmable role. Javert is town.

@Prosaurus: I second the questions re: why you don't mind being dayvigged.

@Ender: I see you voted NE for lurking. Do you think Javert's threat to dayvig anyone who lurks is insufficient motivation for lurkers to stop lurking? Has your read on Prosaurus changed?

[Erratus Apathos]

@EA: Seriously? What type of answer would you expect from that?

An answer that, y'know, gives some insight as to why he doesn't mind being dayvigged?

What about ender's comments to Javert?

What about them?

[Erratus Apathos]

@EA: Do you really think scum is going to say meh go ahead and shot me? In other words there is no reason to ask that question that doesn't look like role fishing.

Yeah, I do. How is it role fishing? It's not like there's any normal role that wants to be shot, so I really doubt it's role related.

@EA: Your voting for pressure on someone not posting, what is different with a vote and a threat that may or may not be true? It's still pressure. Your comment reads as though you know it's a bad kill.

What? Prosaurus is posting. Did you mean to direct this at ender?

P-Edit: WTF, it says ender now? Are you editing your posts farside? I took a screenshot if anyone thinks I'm making this up.

[Erratus Apathos]

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9485/1147post145.png

[Erratus Apathos]

Well first things first, I feel I should apologize to farside. I totally overreacted in accusing her of cheating, when it should have been obvious that that was an honest mistake rather than a nefarious shenanigan. Farside I'm sorry. Please don't replace out.

I don't like this wagon on Ender. Even though his Javert vote was bad for reasons stated, I definitely feel like he genuinely disbelieved Javert's claim. Case in point:

Just vote him already godamnit! He's trying it on, it's like saying "I'm the bomb, the last person to vote me so i am lynched will die." Which is basically warning us off voting for him so he gets away with doing what he wants and noone can stop him, he can't kill all of us.


Oh, now he answers when he realises there's going to be trouble.

The strong language here ("Just vote him already godamnit!") is excellent evidence that Ender was honest in his suspicion of Javert. Scum rarely ever get this emotional about getting their suspects lynched. Especially since I doubt scum would be antagonizing a claimed dayvig like this. Ender is town.

Similarly, I don't think Prosaurus's claim to not mind being dayvigged is likely a gambit, so I'm leaning town on him too. Not as sure as I am with Ender, but I definitely want to move my vote now.

NE's vote on Ender is definitely bothering me. It feels like he's trying to get Ender lynched on a technicality rather than scummy behaviour.

Also, ender thinks there are three possibilities regarding Javert and only one of them invovles him being scum, why vote? Between the vote and his posting, his behavior does not suggest the other two possibilities.

This is what I mean. Even thought Ender thought Javert was scum, he listed possibilities where Javert was town. NE attacks Ender for doing so, suggesting that A) a townie would not vote for a player with only a one in three chance of being scum, and B) a townie would not push such low odds when he had earlier been suggesting only the possibility that Javert was scum. However, both of those claims fall on their face when you actually look at what happened! Ender obviously did not weight the three possibilities equally. He clearly favored the scum-Javert situation, and felt the town-Javert situations were unlikely. This should be apparent to anyone taking an honest look at Ender, but it didn't occur to NE.

Why didn't it? I suspect it's because NE was looking for a reason to jump on the Ender wagon, rather than because he was looking for evidence of Ender's alignment. As such, that's where I'm moving my vote.

UNVOTE: Prosaurus
VOTE: Necessary Evil

[Erratus Apathos]

The strong language here ("Just vote him already godamnit!") is excellent evidence that Ender was honest in his suspicion of Javert. Scum rarely ever get this emotional about getting their suspects lynched. Especially since I doubt scum would be antagonizing a claimed dayvig like this. Ender is town.

Not necessarily. Some scum will put more emotion in their posting just to give themselves a stronger town vibe. It's risky to dismiss someone as a suspect for that reason.

Of course scum can feign emotion, but does Ender's emotion look even the slightest bit feigned? To me it's very obviously legitimate, it fits like a glove with his anti-Javert play and makes sense given that he was saying this to Oso who at the time was also upset with Javert's play. I don't see any evidence that his emotion is fake, nor any scum motive for him to have this emotion. Thus, he is town.

You're totally misunderstanding my case. I'm not really surprised that you did because my post really wasn't well written. I spent 1.5-2 hours working on it because of all the content that was posted. I didn't really proofread it carefully because I had already put so much time in and I had other things I needed to do.

It's not clear that ender had three possibilities in mind when he voted for Javert. He didn't post anything indicating the other two possibilities until after Oso voted for him. That combined with his vote for me when I'd only been absent for one day says to me that he is scum overreacting to the heat he'd been receiving.

Why does it matter that Ender didn't post the other possibilities? He clearly favored the Javert-scum theory, so kinda obviously his posting is gonna be biased towards mentioning that theory.

Where are you getting "I'd only been absent for one day" from? There's more than 48 hours between your iso 1 and 2.

EA's repsonse to Me=Weird was not answering his question and looked like a dodge.

Whaaaaaaaaaaat? I didn't dodge shit from MW. Here's the post in question:

It doesn't deny that I'm serious, it confirms it in fact. I made that comment because Oso said my vote was "by definition" a joke/RVS vote, and I was baffled by him using that particular wording, especially when my vote wasn't actually a joke or RVS vote!

Huh, that seemed like you were saying it

was

a rvs post. I'll drop this one.
About "have no fear" vote, were you really thinking he wanted us to let our guard down, as opposed to just some catchy saying? Then, "fair enough" implies that you honestly believe he's going to save the town.

Yes that is how I originally interpreted that post. And no that's not at all what "fair enough" meant, it meant that I understood what he meant by "have no fear" and that I accepted my interpretation was wrong.

Or it could be town switching votes because his first case got disproven! What do you expect, me to stay on ender even after he debunked my argument?

How is reading too much into a joke post a case, and how is a response joke disproving it?

BECAUSE I THOUGHT HIS POST WAS AN ATTEMPT TO GET THE TOWN TO LET THE GUARD DOWN, AND HIS RESPONSE CLARIFIED THAT HE WAS ONLY BRAGGING. I'M TIRED OF EXPLAINING THIS.

Let's see...

He asked me if I really thought Ender wanted us to let our guard down. I answered that.

He asked me how I had a case on Ender. I answered that.

He asked me how Ender's response disproved my case. I answered that.

SO WHAT EXACTLY AM I NOT ANSWERING HERE?

EA defends Ender with the basis that scum don't get this emotional(they can fake it) or that he would be antagonising over a Day-Vog this much.
On the second point.. Javert seemingly suspects Ender(based off his vote). He claims Day-Vig, he says he is going to shoot. One would assume Ender is currently top of his list. Mafia Ender would be far more worried about Mr. Day Vig than Town Ender right at this moment.

See above for my response to scum faking emotion. Ender's emotion is clearly not fake.

As for scum being more worried about a dayvig claim, that's exactly my point! Why would scum see a player claim dayvig, and decide that it would be a fantastic idea to get into a gigantic fight with that player? Ender is clearly not worried about that! Hence, towntell.

[Erratus Apathos]

Of course scum can feign emotion, but does Ender's emotion look even the slightest bit feigned? To me it's very obviously legitimate, it fits like a glove with his anti-Javert play and makes sense given that he was saying this to Oso who at the time was also upset with Javert's play. I don't see any evidence that his emotion is fake, nor any scum motive for him to have this emotion. Thus, he is town.

I don't have any specific reason to think that his emotion is feigned. I think it's risky to label him as town based on that. I need something more solid.

Well for me it's incredibly solid. I don't really know what else to tell you.

Why does it matter that Ender didn't post the other possibilities? He clearly favored the Javert-scum theory, so kinda obviously his posting is gonna be biased towards mentioning that theory.

It looks to me like he thought he was in trouble and made those other two possibilities up after the fact as a defense.

What? How would making up those possibilities constitute a defense? What attack does that post defend him from? To me it just looks like he's considering all the possibilities.

Look at 138: "Start answering questions, i doubt your a DayVig." Ender used the D word. No not dayvig, the other one. Doubt. He

doubts

Javert is a dayvig. Not he's completely certain Javert isn't one. There's really no inconsistency here.

Where are you getting "I'd only been absent for one day" from? There's more than 48 hours between your iso 1 and 2.

Oh, come on, EA! Do you really want to nit pick over something like this? I posted on Friday, wasn't even on the site on Saturday, and posted again on Sunday, so to me at the time, it was one day. What difference does it make that it was technically two days? That's still suspiciously premature to vote for lurking. We clearly didn't have a lurking problem at the time. He even said that he just picked me because I was the lowest on the activity overview. That's not scumhunting. He used a technicallity that doesn't even remotely prove the case he was making in order to excuse his vote.

Well I was just looking at timestamps, I didn't realize how it had looked from your POV, so fair enough there.

I very strongly disagree that Ender's lurker hunting was not scumhunting. You're right in that the activity overview isn't really sufficient to determine who's a lurker and who's not, but it's a recent addition that hasn't been fully explored, and I can see where someone would make the mistake of assuming you can find lurkerscum just using it. I really think that's what Ender did here.

That being said, I feel better about you based on your response here, so

UNVOTE: Necessary Evil
VOTE: Twistedspoon

as TS seems likes he's trying to stay in the back seat while everyone else fights. I considered voting Klazam too, but there's a better way of dealing with him: Hey Javert, you said you'd vig someone for 4 days without content?

Well Klazam has gone the entire game without content

, so you know what to do.

[Erratus Apathos]

As for scum being more worried about a dayvig claim, that's exactly my point! Why would scum see a player claim dayvig, and decide that it would be a fantastic idea to get into a gigantic fight with that player? Ender is clearly not worried about that! Hence, towntell.

He looked like he panicked to me, calling for everyone to just vote him already

Pffft. Ender wasn't panicked, he was frustrated. I guarantee it.

Look at 138: "Start answering questions, i doubt your a DayVig." Ender used the D word. No not dayvig, the other one. Doubt. He

doubts

Javert is a dayvig. Not he's completely certain Javert isn't one. There's really no inconsistency here.

Twice, Ender said that he was certain that Javert was bluffing.

Yeah, he thought Javert was bluffing, AFTER HE TOLD JAVERT TO VIG HIM AND JAVERT REFUSED. That is a completely different circumstance that happened well after the point I'm talking about here.

I considered voting Klazam too, but there's a better way of dealing with him: Hey Javert, you said you'd vig someone for 4 days without content?

Well Klazam has gone the entire game without content

, so you know what to do.

Calling for Klazam to be day-vigged because he is busy? Not because Klazam is scummy?
Now I'm more confident about my read on EA.
Really comes across as a mafia comment.

No, Klazam is scummy. Guess what alignment stands to gain from not posting any content ever? Hint: it's not town!

No. I would agree if he were active lurking but he is not existing at all. There is no reason to vig him unless he has a replacement that gives us a reason to think he is scummy.

No, he is existing. He pops up every two days or so to remind us all he still exists. While posting no content. That is an excellent reason to vig him.

Actually, he said anyone who didn't post content for 4 days is

in the running.

Fair enough. Klazam being in the running for vigbullets is great.

Didn't I mention earlier that going after lurkers is a good way to look useful without doing anything?

Yeah, you did mention that, and then I ignored it because it was fucking stupid.

EA: Did you ever see an answer to this?

What do you mean by "Mostly a random vote, if you know what I mean"? That's a weird qualifier. Why'd you tack it on to your vote?

UNVOTE: Ender
VOTE: Klazam

I didn't see anything from Klaz. What is your view on Klaz?

No, I did not see an answer to that. Like I've been saying, Klazam is a scummy lurker and the fact that he has yet to answer even questions from just out of the RVS makes this fact amazingly evident.

ummmm I don't get how an RVS vote from ender got that response from you. Have you ever seen town let their guard down when someone says something like ender did?

No, I haven't. It was never more than a theory.

Honestly I don't see anyone doing any strong reads at this point, but this switch from Klaz to a newb looks like a let me switch for weak reason vote, then finding scum.

Okay, so where should I have been searching for scum, if not Prosaurus? I sure as hell didn't see anywhere better!

Really?! I mean why do you think someone who is newb would do a gambit like that in the first place? Why does it take a few questions to determine this?

Because Prosaurus had only made one lousy contextless "I don't mind being vigged" post at the time. That's really unconvincing, and I can prove it:

Hey Javert, vig me.

Am I confirmed town now that I've said that? Like hell I am! And yet that's

exactly

what you're suggesting I should have done with regard to Prosaurus: saw one post suggesting Javert vig him with no context and assumed that the only possible motive is that he is town. Is it really that hard to believe that I didn't jump to that conclusion?

As for why I eventually decided he wasn't gambiting, that was due to 152:

And is there a reason why I should care about being Day Killed? I don't see one.

The attitude he showed in this post is what convinced me he was for-realsies.

I feel like EA gives in to things without delving further into his suspicion. He makes one argument, someone counters he goes to the next person. Maybe it's because if something or someone gives me scum vibes or find their actions to be scummy I will fight harder.

Yes, I do move on when someone proves me wrong,

and I'm proud of it

! Continuing to fight for a case that's been proven wrong is stupid, and I honestly have no idea why so many players love tunneling so damn much, but I refuse to be one of those players. If you want to call that vote hopping, then I'm the goddamn Easter bunny.

indeed, NE has gone under the radar for too long

I'm fine with this wagon. My vote on Javert is utterly redundant anyways now that his wagon is gone and he's claimed :/

VOTE: NE

Oh yeah, Twistedspoon is totally scum. Look at his posts between his Javert vote and his unvote. He doesn't attack Javert, he doesn't question Javert, he doesn't push the Javert wagon, he's doesn't do a single damn thing to Javert. He accomplished three things with his Javert vote, and those things were VOTE PARK, VOTE PARK, AND VOTE PARK. He was vote parking on Maxous earlier too, and he's already looking like he's vote parking on NE. I suggest we park a noose around Twistedscum's neck.

[Erratus Apathos]

@EA You seem to be defending Ender alot. Mind to post your main reasons you think he's town?

Cause his angry reaction to Javert's claim is totally legitimate, and it's not how scum would react to that claim.

[Erratus Apathos]

@Jav: so why did you claim if you are a day-vig? why not keep it a secret so you could use it a later day when you have more information to make more accurate reads from?

Okay, you commented on Javert ONCE the entire time you had your vote on him. Whoop dee freakin doo. That still doesn't change the fact that you vote parked like a vote parker on vote parking day.

[Erratus Apathos]

No, Klazam is scummy. Guess what alignment stands to gain from not posting any content ever? Hint: it's not town!

So Klazam was not posting as a deliberate mafia ploy?
Despite lurking like that being something which brings a lot of negative attention onto a player.

A lot of negative attention? Really? I'm the only one that's attacked Klazam this entire game! How is that a lot of attention?

Lurking is an excellent mafia strategy. Towns that are willing to push lurker lynches are rare, so lurking is a lot safer than it has any right to be.

Tough choice, but my vote vote before NE wasn't doing anything anyways (I think it was on Javert)

(I think it was on Javert)

(I think it was on Javert)

(I think it was on Javert)

(I think it was on Javert)

(I think it was on Javert)

(I think it was on Javert)

(I think it was on Javert)

(I think it was on Javert)

(I think it was on Javert)

Good lord people, he only has a vague idea where his own vote was. Could it be any more obvious that TS is scum?

[Erratus Apathos]

well I can't be 100% certain can I? I'm only being honest about what I think
anyways, It was on javert, so there's no issue

adshjkdgijkhdsagjkhasdgh

How. in. the. HELL. can you not be certain of where your vote is?

EA: Pro said I don't mind being vigged. You asked him why he stated this comment. Not hey vig, shoot me.
There is a difference in wording.
How do you know his attitude isn't fake? IE: You think one comment is fake, but not the other????

Okay, I admit it's a different wording, but in my opinion they're similar enough that I lump them in together.

I didn't think his first comment was fake, I simply found it null. I think his second comment is a towntell because he confidently maintained his position even when it drew fire.

Wow. I couldn't get on the site at all yesterday and now I'm greeted with a ton of new content. I'm getting caught up now.

then

UNVOTE: you're on now. As soon as your finished reading up, top scum please.

o rly? unvoting so soon? The slightest trace of NE and you unvoted, before any content of his too. Ah well, you've claimed cop, so i guess it doesn't matter too much.

Oh good, here's another scumtell from TS! He attacks ender for unvoting, but then immediately tacks on a comment that distances himself from it. It serves no protown purpose. So why did he post it? Because he doesn't want to get into an argument.

you want to vig klazam?
Wasn't he v/la

anyways, I don't like directing the vig. I can see scum doing that easily and with good reason to do so.

Well too damn bad. I'm going to say who I think Javert should vig, whether you like it or not.

Why would I want to attack javert?

Because you were voting him? That's usually what townies do to the people they vote. Are you admitting your vote on Javert was bullshit? You totally should, it'd be a lot easier than trying to argue that it was a meaningful vote.

@EA: I'm surprised that you were grilling Klazam over lurking after the last game the three of us were in (it's completed, so no worries). At least he posted that he was V/LA this time. Why are you attacking him over it now?

What are you talking about? Klazam didn't lurk in Mini 1133 at all. He had 59 posts which is pretty damn good considering he was only alive for roughly nine RL days. For comparison this game has been active for roughly eight RL days and he's made ten posts. Half of which are worthless saporovirusy fluff.

As much as I want to see TS lynched though, I should point out that I believe he's at L-2 (me, Rhinox, NE, farside, Juls) so hold off on voting him any further until Javert uses his vig.

[Erratus Apathos]

I don't care about TS's claim, he's still scum. "But his claim is consistent with this one remark he said earlier on about one-shots!" So? It's not like scum are incapable of being consistent, and I see no reason for this instance to be any different. My vote stays where it is.

@EA You seem to be defending Ender alot. Mind to post your main reasons you think he's town?

Cause his angry reaction to Javert's claim is totally legitimate, and it's not how scum would react to that claim.

And why not?

Scum would know the claim is true, and would want to steer the dayvig away from him and his buddies rather than challenge it and risk being vigged.

Why is EA explaining all this about Ender in the first place? There was no 'well Ender would have to answer that' from him.

I don't need any more answers from him, I already have enough from him for a solid town read. And in any event, it's not like I've answered anything for him.

[Erratus Apathos]

EA: How is ender's play any better then TS? Would you put them under the same category with lack of context?

When Ender voted Javert he was clearly aiming to actually get Javert lynched. TS just left his vote on Javert for a long time for no apparent reason.

[Erratus Apathos]

EA: Why are you ignoring Klaz who is pretty much doing next to nothing when it comes his reasoning? I see you mentioned this with Pro.

I'm not ignoring Klaz, I've been calling him scummy and even pushing for him to be vigged. And I am willing to vote that way.

UNVOTE: Twistedspoon
VOTE: Klazam

See?

[Erratus Apathos]

I concur, vig already Javert.

FWIW I support vigging Klazam or Twistedspoon and am against vigging Ender, Prosaurus, MeWeird, NEvil, or farside (or me obv obv)

[Erratus Apathos]

Ugh. See why i find it hard to play this game. I have townreads on way too many people. IF they all are correct, that would mean NE, EA, and PS is mafia...

Everyone read this quote carefully. Klazam is saying he's figured out the scum via PoE. That would be great from a town point of view! And yet he's moaning about how hard this game is,

while claiming to have the scum figured out D1.

Makes it kinda obvious that his reads are all bullshit.

KLAZAM

IS

SCUM

[Erratus Apathos]

I'm not saying that i figured out scum by POE.

I'm saying that i highly doubt that all my town reads is actually town.

Why do you doubt that?

[Erratus Apathos]

ender241

,

One-Shot Cop

Forgive me if I start making lots of typos for the rest of the game, but it's awfully hard to type

FROM ATOP MY HIGH HORSE!!!

I don't really care for the MW wagon. I felt his reaction to Juls's attack on him is more likely to come from town than scum.

Klazam's latest post mollifies me slightly. Not nearly enough for a townread though.

On the other hand I took a long hard look at Oso, he is scum. First there's his top three scumlist:

For me;

Me=Weird
ender241
Twistedspoon

in roughly that order. <actual vote still pending though as stated in my last

That list isn't scummy in and of itself, but then when you look at his iso, he goes out of his way to

protect

both Ender and TS,

despite both of them being top suspects

!

Oddly enough, after going back after TS's claim, I feel better about Ender's claim and TS's claim.

TS's "1-Shot Theme" comment makes more sense now. TS knew his role (if you grant that he is true claiming) and saw Ender's claim and made the assumption that all roles are 1-shots, it even makes his comment that he thought Javert had claimed one shot as well more understandable.

(Yes, I believe that one of Ender and TS is absolutely telling the truth. Plus a leaning, or just a hope maybe, that both are true).

Twistedspoon- I believe his claim

{I'll add my own disclaimer here:FOR NOW}

, play pretty much matches up nicely with the claim.

Juls- Feels town

Oso- Feels town
Rhinox- Feels town

Necessary Evil- Null: hard to read,

more quality posts than me, but less posts in total.

EA- Slightly scummy

because I find his all-out attack of me a bit odd,

can’t put my finger on it.

(Yeah, right now, I would be calling for the vigging of myself, but at the beginning, I was EA’s first choice for vigging, even after I was absent for a couple days)

Prosaurus- Scum because of the way he posted. Yeah, that rolefishing is included.
Me=Weird- At first I thought he was scum, but now I’m not so sure so I’ll say null.

Maxous- Feels town
Farside- Feels town

Javert- I highly doubt that scum would have dayvigging powers. Once he vigs someone, he’s confirmed town IMO.
Ender- I believe the claim for now,

but I recoginize in his shoes, a 1 shot cop would be a pretty good fakeclaim. More likely than TS to be mafia.

Exclude my entry on that list. The bold are ones that I agree with

Triple Post. I want to get this out as a thinking point before I get busy today.

Yesterday I thought about this game quite a bit, and I have an idea I want to throw out.

Javert's shot followed by a no-lynch.

1)Get's us a flip and confirms that Javert has at least the ability to daykill.
2)Avoids outing any other roles. I found (I think) what looks to be a breadcrumb to yet another role (and no, I'm not going to point it out), we keep this up and we are going to have to have a mass-claim here on D1 simply because we seem to be hitting all PRs.
3)It allows our three claimed roles to go ahead and use those roles.
4)Downside, we lose the lynch and information we might get by purposely taking someone to a lynch but I believe that will be offset, in this game at least, by allowing what we have showing to go ahead. Normally, I wouldn't even consider a no-lynch D1. This game is turning out to be fairly unique in my experience.

Oh yeah, that last post is scumcrap all by itself. He makes four bullet points for Dayvig + No Lynch, but the second one is the ONLY one that even tries to offer any advantage over the default Dayvig + Lynch. And even that one is rubbish when you consider the likelyhood of outing a FOURTH power role in a mini normal D1 is so slim that you could stick it on the cover of Cosmo and the anorexia rates in the US would skyrocket. Oso is smart, so I don't think he would post this if he was thinking about the situation rationally.

After thinking about it I actually find Oso scummier than either Klazam or TS, although I'm still willing to lynch either of those two if necessary.

UNVOTE: Klazam
VOTE: Oso

[Erratus Apathos]

neither ender nor TS ever left my scum list.

The quote of mine you used up there:

(Yes, I believe that one of Ender and TS is absolutely telling the truth. Plus a leaning, or just a hope maybe, that both are true).

Pretty much sums up exactly what I was thinking and hoping at the time I made that post. Still am actually which is why I'm not going to advocate a TS lynch today

neither ender nor TS ever left my scum list.

The quote of mine you used up there:

(Yes, I believe that one of Ender and TS is absolutely telling the truth. Plus a leaning, or just a hope maybe, that both are true).

Pretty much sums up exactly what I was thinking and hoping at the time I made that post. Still am actually which is why I'm not going to advocate a TS lynch today

neither ender nor TS ever left my scum list.

The quote of mine you used up there:

(Yes, I believe that one of Ender and TS is absolutely telling the truth. Plus a leaning, or just a hope maybe, that both are true).

Pretty much sums up exactly what I was thinking and hoping at the time I made that post. Still am actually which is why I'm not going to advocate a TS lynch today

neither ender nor TS ever left my scum list.

The quote of mine you used up there:

(Yes, I believe that one of Ender and TS is absolutely telling the truth. Plus a leaning, or just a hope maybe, that both are true).

Pretty much sums up exactly what I was thinking and hoping at the time I made that post. Still am actually which is why I'm not going to advocate a TS lynch today

neither ender nor TS ever left my scum list.

The quote of mine you used up there:

(Yes, I believe that one of Ender and TS is absolutely telling the truth. Plus a leaning, or just a hope maybe, that both are true).

Pretty much sums up exactly what I was thinking and hoping at the time I made that post. Still am actually which is why I'm not going to advocate a TS lynch today

neither ender nor TS ever left my scum list.

The quote of mine you used up there:

(Yes, I believe that one of Ender and TS is absolutely telling the truth. Plus a leaning, or just a hope maybe, that both are true).

Pretty much sums up exactly what I was thinking and hoping at the time I made that post. Still am actually which is why I'm not going to advocate a TS lynch today

neither ender nor TS ever left my scum list.

The quote of mine you used up there:

(Yes, I believe that one of Ender and TS is absolutely telling the truth. Plus a leaning, or just a hope maybe, that both are true).

Pretty much sums up exactly what I was thinking and hoping at the time I made that post. Still am actually which is why I'm not going to advocate a TS lynch today

COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM! COOL STORY SCUM!

VOTE: Oso
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[Erratus Apathos]

oh and this too

neither ender nor TS ever left my scum list.

Twistedspoon- I believe his claim

{I'll add my own disclaimer here:FOR NOW}

, play pretty much matches up nicely with the claim.
(snip)

Ender- I believe the claim for now,

but I recoginize in his shoes, a 1 shot cop would be a pretty good fakeclaim. More likely than TS to be mafia.

OSO IS CAUGHT LYING CONFIRMED SCUM HERE PEOPLE. LET'S GET THIS SHIT ON THE ROAD!

[Erratus Apathos]

Being willing to believe the claims

while still being highly suspicious of the players making the claims.

LOL. YOU BELIEVE THE CLAIMS AND ARE SUSPICIOUS OF THE PLAYERS MAKING THE CLAIMS.

AT THE SAME TIME.

THAT MAKES NEGATIVE INFINITY SENSE.

DIE SCUM DIE!

[Erratus Apathos]

YOU'RE RIGHT, PROSAURUS. LYING IS A WEAK SCUMTELL AT BEST. ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT TO TEACH ME ABOUT THIS GAME?

[Erratus Apathos]

VOTE: Oso
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[Erratus Apathos]

Rhinox: Oso is the scummiest because he trusted Ender and TS WAAAAAY too much for someone who supposedly still suspects them. The whole "I sort of believe their claims but not really" thing comes off like he wanted a lame excuse to jump off their wagons. It certainly doesn't come off as any kind of genuine scumhunting.

Here are my rough estimates of the percentage likelihood of being scum:

Klazam: one million percent
TS: thirty billion percent
Oso: NINE HUNDRED TRILLION PERCENT

basically what I'm saying here is I don't find percentages meaningful at all. But yes, all three are scum reads.

[Erratus Apathos]

I'm not absolutely sure, I just like playing in overdrive. It's more fun that way.

[Erratus Apathos]

Not yet. But maybe you should learn to read properly? He's willing to believe the claims while he wasn't sure they actually

are

true, he didn't say "OMG CLAIMS THEY ARE TRUE BUT THEY ARENT TRUE RIGHT?"

But "he wasn't sure they actually

are

true" is kind of an understatement here. Ender and TS weren't exactly smack dab in the middle of Oso's null reads, they were high up on his scumlist.

And then Ender and TS both said "Oh, actually I'm a one-shot cop," and Oso said "Okay, I believe your claims."

But then Oso continued to leave them high up on his scumlist.

Despite supposedly believing their claims.

WHY WOULD OSO FIND THEM SCUMMY IF HE NOW BELIEVES THEIR CLAIMS?

WHY WOULD OSO BELIEVE THEIR CLAIMS IF HE STILL FINDS THEM SCUMMY?

WHAT POSSIBLE TOWN MOTIVE IS THERE TO DO EITHER OF THOSE THINGS?

THERE ISN'T ONE!

WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES HOW OBVSCUMMY OSO IS?

[Erratus Apathos]

No I don't get it, because it MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE

[Erratus Apathos]

Oh well, deadline's coming up in five days and I don't want to wait til the last minute to get things moving forward, so I'm moving back to Klazam. He still seems a lot less pro-town than he did in 1133, and I'd definitely rather lynch him than MW.

UNVOTE: Oso
VOTE: Klazam

[Erratus Apathos]

Well I believe Juls's masov breadcrumb.

UNVOTE: Klazam
VOTE: Oso

[Erratus Apathos]

May I point out there

is

infact a mason role which is scum.

IIRC, scum masons are prohibited in Normal games

May I also popint out that scum can talk to each other, and put in a fake breadcrumb incase of a situation like this.

Scum rarely ever fakeclaim mason, because a lot of things can go wrong (the most likely being a counterclaim, drawing an NK from an SK or another scumgroup, or even just getting lynched because the game went to LyLo with not a single scum lynch), and they'd be risking two lives if they get caught. Which is EXTREMELY risky in minis, where scumgroups have three lives at most. For these reasons, scum usually pick safer claims. Most likely Juls and Klazam are really masons.

[Erratus Apathos]

Oh, come on, EA! Do you really want to nit pick over something like this? I posted on Friday, wasn't even on the site on Saturday, and posted again on Sunday, so to me at the time, it was one day. What difference does it make that it was technically two days? That's still suspiciously premature to vote for lurking. We clearly didn't have a lurking problem at the time. He even said that he just picked me because I was the lowest on the activity overview. That's not scumhunting. He used a technicallity that doesn't even remotely prove the case he was making in order to excuse his vote.

I believe Juls mason claim. I've had a town read on her for a while and that would explain my odd feelings about Klazam. I'm really rolling my eyes at her vote on me, though. I've been V/LA for almost a week, which she is failing to take into account. If you check the other game I'm in, I posted that I was V/LA there, too, so I'm not making it up to lurk in this game. I think she's overestimating how often I should be posting because this is has been a very active game. I've certainly posted my fair share of content, IMO.

These are town reactions to being attacked.

Are you a moron, or have you never heard of having a gut town read on somebody who's done scummy things?

Are you just twisting everything so it

could

be scummy, or are you an idiot? How is that desperation? I wanted why he thought I was scum into one post because I wanted to make sure there weren't things I hadn't responded to. Why do you want to lynch TS? Do you disbelieve his claim? Why? And do you know how exceedingly dumb and moronic it is to use connections before there's been a scum flip? Do you ever consider that you're

wrong?

So are these.

So your basic point there is that I advocated a no-lynch after a vig? Why didn't you bring this up when I made the suggestion if it was so all fired scummy.

This is not. This is scum looking for some chink in the attack rather than defending or explaining the point being made against them.

Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. Oso is scum. OSO IS SCUM. OSO IS SCUM. OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM OSO IS SCUM

[Erratus Apathos]

And that's why I think they're scum. You all say it's too risky for scum to claim masons. Then you say they can't be scum because of it. Therefore, it's actually not very risky at all.

Even if everyone assumed that mason claims couldn't be scum period, it would

still

be a risky claim, because they could be counterclaimed, or shot by an SK, and then they'd lose two lives.

I'm telling you from experience, scum almost never claim mason in minis.

[Erratus Apathos]

Vote: Twistedspoon

.

Still doubt we would happen to wagon two 2-Shot Cops one after the other, and Twistedspoon has spent his last several posts (as well as posts before I used my shot) to try to undermine me as opposed to hunting scum.

Uhhh, wut?

Let's see. Javert claims, let Javert prove his claim as it is easily provable.

Ender claims PR, give him a chance to show us he's not lying.

TS claims PR and it's the same as Ender's but both are one shots so not a direct counter claim as there could be two one shots of the same type in a game, give him a chance to show us he's not lying.

Juls claims for herself and Klazam, so unusual a claim that no direct proof is really needed by players but like Javert's, easily provable if one of them shows up dead at some point.

Take this up again tomorrow Javert, after a night to at least give TS a chance to prove his claim.

VOTE: Oso
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[Erratus Apathos]

@EA, I don't think Oso is gonna swing today. I think we should re-evaluate him tomorrow. Who is your second choice?

Twistedspoon is. I'd also live with a lynch of Rhinox, farside, or Maxous even though those are null reads atm. I definitely don't want to lynch MeWeird, NEvil, Prosaurus, Javert, Quilford or you.

[Erratus Apathos]

Because I have solid town reads on all of them.

If you don't like my usage of caps lock, I will call Oso scum in regular case just for you. Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Oso is scum for sure everyone vote him! Is that better?

[Erratus Apathos]

Seriously, we're making MW claim? This town is headdesk city.

How exactly are you so sure he's scum? Same for the others you think are scum.

Oso is scum for:
believing Ender and TS's claims for no real reason
pushing a no-lynch for crap reasons

and then not having a town reaction to my attack on him

EA: How or what defines for you MW as town besides that one post? I say lack of scum hunting and BWing is more likely to come from scum.

It's mostly the reactions I quoted above. Although voting Oso also helps

What lack of scumhunting? Looking at MW's iso, I see plenty of scumhunting.

[Erratus Apathos]

And the other two people?

wut

Seeing the deadline, I realize the only plausible lynch today is MW. I still think he's town, but it's better than no lynch at all, so

au revoir

.
UNVOTE: Oso
VOTE: Me=Weird

in before the townflip

[Erratus Apathos]

Well then now he's a dead important PR. Let that be a lesson about waiting until the deadline to get shit done. (Admittedly I'm just as guilty as anyone else.) Tomorrow we don't dick around waiting to see if Javert's bi-weekly post contains his daykill. He vigs on our terms, we don't lynch on his.

[Erratus Apathos]

Don't worry, the mod will claim on his behalf.

[Erratus Apathos]

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[Erratus Apathos]

I stand by my scum read on TS and town read on NE.

Someone should unvote NE, we should see if Javert can vig before lynching. I know I said yesterday not to wait on him, but I didn't say don't give him a chance at all!

[Erratus Apathos]

we've already lost one one-shot cop and we can't afford to lose another

Everyone read this post. Then vote Twistedspoon.

UNVOTE: Oso
VOTE: Twistedspoon

[Erratus Apathos]

I still think NE's the guilty one, I've just played a game with him in which he used a similar "I'm not scum so you must be" response to a guilty on him (he was scum, and he won *shakes fist*).

And what exactly do you expect his response as town to be? "I'm not scum so you must have misread your investigation result"?

@Max Yea, but that has a reason. EA's is more "Oh look! An easy bandwagon! Everyone vote TS!".

I'm jumping on an easy bandwagon? Are you fucking kidding me? I'm the one who started the damn TS wagon!

You say I don't have reasons... well then what the HELL do you call these?

UNVOTE: Necessary Evil
VOTE: Twistedspoon

as TS seems likes he's trying to stay in the back seat while everyone else fights.

Oh yeah, Twistedspoon is totally scum. Look at his posts between his Javert vote and his unvote. He doesn't attack Javert, he doesn't question Javert, he doesn't push the Javert wagon, he's doesn't do a single damn thing to Javert. He accomplished three things with his Javert vote, and those things were VOTE PARK, VOTE PARK, AND VOTE PARK. He was vote parking on Maxous earlier too, and he's already looking like he's vote parking on NE. I suggest we park a noose around Twistedscum's neck.

@Jav: so why did you claim if you are a day-vig? why not keep it a secret so you could use it a later day when you have more information to make more accurate reads from?

Okay, you commented on Javert ONCE the entire time you had your vote on him. Whoop dee freakin doo. That still doesn't change the fact that you vote parked like a vote parker on vote parking day.

(I think it was on Javert)

Good lord people, he only has a vague idea where his own vote was. Could it be any more obvious that TS is scum?

well I can't be 100% certain can I? I'm only being honest about what I think
anyways, It was on javert, so there's no issue

adshjkdgijkhdsagjkhasdgh

How. in. the. HELL. can you not be certain of where your vote is?

Wow. I couldn't get on the site at all yesterday and now I'm greeted with a ton of new content. I'm getting caught up now.

then

UNVOTE: you're on now. As soon as your finished reading up, top scum please.

o rly? unvoting so soon? The slightest trace of NE and you unvoted, before any content of his too. Ah well, you've claimed cop, so i guess it doesn't matter too much.

Oh good, here's another scumtell from TS! He attacks ender for unvoting, but then immediately tacks on a comment that distances himself from it. It serves no protown purpose. So why did he post it? Because he doesn't want to get into an argument.

Why would I want to attack javert?

Because you were voting him? That's usually what townies do to the people they vote. Are you admitting your vote on Javert was bullshit? You totally should, it'd be a lot easier than trying to argue that it was a meaningful vote.

[Erratus Apathos]

No offence to Twistedspoon but it would be serious quick thinking to do this in the next post

2 minutes

after Ender's claim.

Huh. You're right. I actually hadn't noticed how quick TS's softclaim was, and that is a really damn good point in his favor. DGB'S SIG, Y'ALL

UNVOTE: Twistedspoon
VOTE: Necessary Evil

With that said I'll be moving at the end of the month. The trip alone will take about a week, on top of the periods before and after when I won't be connected. I don't think it's fair to sit on V/LA for that long, so unfortunately I have come to the decision to request a replacement. I've decided to request it now rather than wait til I leave. I apologize to everyone for not fulfilling my obligation to complete this game.

Mod, please replace me.

Sorry to hear that! But it's noted, I'll start looking for a replacement right away.

[Erratus Apathos]

It's bad to rush through the day because nobody who is currently voting for me is bothering to think through following TS today.

Everybody should note how Rhinox is telling us that he's willing to shut his brain off and not only blindly follow someone who he was sure was scum, but to delcare him obvtown before I've even flipped

Seriously, why are none of you thinking this through?

I wish I could stay in this game just so I could think of imaginative new ways to express how confirmed my vote is.

This is not the ragey, gut-reaction insulting that townies often do. This is the scummy-type of insulting: deny that there even is a case on you and call everyone on it stupid/sheep. His remark on Rhinox is especially scummy. Rhinox's flip flop on TS is not "shutting his brain off" or "blindly following someone". Just the opposite in fact, it shows he's considering new evidence, rather than mindlessly tunneling. NE paints him as stupid though, in the hopes that others will dismiss his arguments. This is a scum tactic, and NE is totally scum.

Why did TS suggest that there might be a framer or that he might be insane? What does he gain? What does that do for the town?

He acknowledged those things to show why he dismissed them as unlikely, and thus why everyone else should as well. What does he gain from not bringing them up at all? If he doesn't, someone else will, so he may as well get his opinion out first.

Not sure whoever replaces me will care what I think, but just in case they do, I'm thinking NE/Duplicity/Farside scumteam. Everyone outside that group reads town to me.

[Erratus Apathos]

I'm just going to keep posting this until people start answering it:

How could TS survive today without claiming a guilty?

The fact that I've posted this question twice and nobody has answered it is proof that none of you are thinking this through. Oh, and what is this case on me that I can't seem to find anywhere? You're all just sheeping the scummiest player. Awful, awful play from all of you. You should be ashamed!

IF WE LYNCH NE BEFORE I SHUT MY INTERNET OFF, I WILL LOVE YOU ALL FOREVER

[Erratus Apathos]

This may be my last post before I turn everything off. Hopefully the mod finds a replacement and you won't have to deal with an empty slot regardless...

6. EA, what changed your mind about NE exactly? Here you state you believe his defence is that of a townie.

The timing of TS's softclaim making it unlikely that he's lying was the first thing

then his scummy defense today sealed the deal

Just caught up with thread. NE, if you're really town you need to be giving the thread your reads right now. We've decided that although we think something is seriously odd with the setup if TS is being truthful, your overall play is a scum-read for us and that means we're willing to hammer. If you really are town, post something useful instead of complaining.

-gorilla

we're willing to hammer

(no actual hammer)

WATCH THE SCUMMY SCUM STALL

@NE I'm not voting for you yet. That post was just to say

something

as TS said I should. Anyway, I think either you or TS is scum, you're scummier and seem desperate to get someone to agree with you and remove their vote.

Good point! You should hammer.