130.Mirror Mafia - Game Over

[flinter]

Flinter, the idea of my hider plan is to make sure that we at least have some sort of information to work with if epm dies from hiding behind scum. If scum shoot him in order to aim for 2 town deaths, then they're shooting someone scummy anyways so it's equivalent to scum killing pacman and someone vigging pacman's target. If scum fail, then we have a scummy person dying instead of a townie person, and we have another scummy person confirmed.

You really want me to think you are scum. EPM is most dangerous to scum when he gets more then one result. Hiding behind scummy people is just sending him on a suicide mission. And in your brilliant plan, he would have to say behind which three players he would hide. If he died, we would have a certain 1/3 chance that we'd find scum there. That's hardly better then random lynching.

@zdenek. Probably shortening your posts and trying not to react to everyone is a good idea. It makes your posts calmer and easier to read. (I couldn't get through yours completely now. Im at school and kind of busy)

and probably I'm not going to get any serious reads anymore before I'm getting back from V/LA. Please be nice to me, and don't post too much in that time

[Bub Bidderskins]

For Zdenek's benefit:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16537

As far as my vote on Pine: yes, there are other lurkers, but there aren't other lurkers who have posted three times to say that they are reading the game. It reads to me of somebody who wants people to think that they're in the game when they really aren't. And I usually unvote off my RVS wagon after we leave the RVS if that player doesn't read as scummy.

About twisted spoon, I gave my honest opinion: null read. I stand by that. He has done some scummy things so far, but my gut says town. Gut and brain splitting=null read.

[Cecily]

Stop watching TV and get in the game, please.

Harsh. I see that as an attempt to nullify packman's claim of you only responding to posts about you. I am usually very cautious with my votes, but in a game this large, I don't think I need to be.

VOTE: Bub Bidderskins

My question is specifically referring to this. Obv scum vote if Bub turns out to be a mislynch.

I feel like the quote you posted actually does the opposite of make the two seem unrelated. I understand being cautious about voting, but withholding a vote because it is "too early" while there are very few other votes on the person could indicate scummy association. And now in a game of such a comfortable size that fear of an early lynch brought on by a scum partner is almost gone and so ion can vote as he wants.

I agree at this point with a pine wagon, because not only his lack of posting here, but his excessive posting in other threads. After saying that he was watching 30 rock he proceeded to post 15 times in other places showing he did actually have the attention for posting. Scum pine hides from questions with indications that he'll be back later and yet never returns.

vote: pine

[Furcolow]

Atronoch - Survivor is a role which wins if it survives at the end of the game, regardless of who wins. It is like the reverse of the fool.
However, I am happier with the Nocmen wagon, with a willingness to wagon Flinter so far

WHY IS THERE NO ACTION HERE?!?

With the claim or me voting?
I don't want to rush into anything before I have to, in terms of voting. If you're talking about the role of survivor, in relation to us talking about the hider, it is because that is my interpretation of that role. I don't consider it a 3rd party Hider like it is seen on EM.

Haven't read through fully, on my lunch break.
Only third party allowed in Normal games is SK.

Hider is not 3rd party necessarily.

@Furc - what's the value of the Nocman wagon?

It's better than I've seen of other wagons, though from the looks of it it died now. I am not fully caught up, since I am quoting from this point, but at the time I had noticed a few votes onto him that I felt weren't necessarily weak. I also disliked his timing on coming in right after he had accrued said votes. I am wondering if he would have actively lurked had he not been pressured. It's slightly better than a wagon on any random player, from my perspective.

@mastin[calcifer]

: You say you are leaning VI on acronach, which I agree with, and that the lead would thus mean TS was scum. You then say "Twisted has convinced me Cecily is town", could you explain this further? thanks.

vote: Acronach

As good a Day 1 bandwagon as we'll get for now.

obv scum is obv. we have 20 days to produce a lynch and you hop on the biggest wagon saying "it's the best we'll get for now"
srsly, if your gonna fail like that, at least try to look smart while doing so.

unvote vote ctorj49

I like this post in terms of mentioning how far the deadline is, but that is lessened in +town because you are the popular wagon at this point of the game where you said this, so although I like it, I have to consider it null, especially considering the weak town points you would gain from this are offset through an OMGUS vote. I will admit that you did provide some reasoning with it, to where it is nearly not an OMGUS vote, because his vote on you seemed both opportunistic and weak. What I mean is that he gave little to no reasoning, and the timing of it felt scummy.

Oh, right. Cabooscum. Brings back memories.
(For the curious, Caboose's last experience with me was not a nice game.)

Also, you of ALL people should know asking me to explain my reads is NOT a good idea.

'Sides. I'm waiting on Nacho's input, for now. I'll continue doing review, but Nacho trumps me at any time. (Especially due to last game. )

I have played with Mastin before, in that game he was a townie.
His posts felt more in-depth and helpful. I am getting a scum read on him because of this.

@flinter

I'm not sure what to make of your Serbian Jew double bluff, but I like where your vote is at this moment

Cecily's defense of CJ in #151 is unwarranted and scummy

KCDaSpot looks scummy on the middle of page 7. I'm guessing Flinter was being sincere, and wasn't making a Serbian Jew double bluff after all. His reaction to being listed as possible scum by Caboose is pretty damning. I would be happy voting here. Problem is Caboose is pretty much chainsaw-defending Mast, and I'm not sure he isn't scum due to meta and his shortened version of posts

WOW pine in #168 is SERIOUSLY active lurking

I want everyone that's not Ion and Bub to answer this.

Buy or sell: If Bub is town, Ion is scum.

Sell. Although, not at full price. I'd sell at a discount.
I am leaning more towards the scummy response coming from Ludi, because of how he sort of mudslinged onto Ion afterwards. I took note on that, definitely.

Hoping Acronach flips scum due to his backtracking on his townread on me, moving me to the "lurker" category, which is a scum-EM term for a mislynch tbh. His accounts on EM are actually quite pitiful. I could have as many points as either of them in a few days.

Dislike Thor's #191. It is hypocritical in that he is saying he's not going to be active enough to defend a vote, even POSTING A WALL about it, yet attacks Cecily for not scumhunting.

I like it as a sort of reactionary test, if that's what it was, but that is it.
I dislike it because I feel he made excuses for some of the things he softly attacked Cecily for.
It is of note that Cecily's defense sucked

Another thing from it that is noteworthy is that Thor said "you won't find me on any bandwagons" or "leading any lynches" but his vote is on a top wagon, and is the first vote. Considering LAL here.

Cecily was looking bad, as was Bub, but I like the Pine votes. I feel he was actively lurking, and am happy with a wagon here.

vote: Pine

__

Tags fixed. Tasky

[Thor665]

Stop watching TV and get in the game, please.

Harsh. I see that as an attempt to nullify packman's claim of you only responding to posts about you. I am usually very cautious with my votes, but in a game this large, I don't think I need to be.

VOTE: Bub Bidderskins

My question is specifically referring to this. Obv scum vote if Bub turns out to be a mislynch.

I feel like the quote you posted actually does the opposite of make the two seem unrelated. I understand being cautious about voting, but withholding a vote because it is "too early" while there are very few other votes on the person could indicate scummy association. And now in a game of such a comfortable size that fear of an early lynch brought on by a scum partner is almost gone and so ion can vote as he wants.

I agree at this point with a pine wagon, because not only his lack of posting here, but his excessive posting in other threads. After saying that he was watching 30 rock he proceeded to post 15 times in other places showing he did actually have the attention for posting. Scum pine hides from questions with indications that he'll be back later and yet never returns.

vote: pine

Lol.

Unvote: Twistedspoon
Vote: Cecily

[evilpacman18]

All votes on pine are scummy. It is currently impossible to have a legitimate vote on Pine.

[Caboose]

Well,

someone's

not reading the thread (hint: it's the same someone who doesn't know how to apply the chainsaw defence scumtell).

Thor never said "you won't find me leading any bandwagons."

[Calcifer]

Acronach (4/11): Ion67, Calcifer, Zdenek, Bub Bidderskins <--Contains one scum.
Not us, obviously. We've got a town-read on Ion, and Nacho has a town-read on Bub. (And at last check, was neutral on Zd.)
Process of elimination, Zdenek.
Twistedspoon (3/11): Thor665, Caboose, flinter
Bub Bidderskins (3/11): evilpacman18, Magister Ludi, Ion67
Acronach (3/11): Zdenek, Gollum, Ctorj49
Probably 2 scum in here, too.
Nacho has a scumread on Gollum, which I am beginning to agree with. This'd also allow for Zdenek to be scum, if all others are town. (We both have a town-read on Thor, Evil [obviously], Flinter, and Ion, and I have a town-read on Caboose and Ludi.) Acro's an extremely scum-driven wagon.

Not Voting (5): Cecily, TheJakalope, Furcolow, Pine, Kcdaspot <--All of these people have been online, and yet have no vote. I'd like to say 1-2 scum in here, but not sure.

Calcifer-Mastin, after There Will Be Bloodshed, do you think you could provide some kind of rationale for you reads, so that I'll be able to judge how seriously to take them. I'm fine with reading whatever walls you end up writing.

Not a chance. Unless Nacho tells me to.

There is absolutely no contradiction here. I don't that post should be used to judge his alignment, but since then, I think Acronach has done scummy things.

Same. Post. In the same post, you went from defending CJMiller, to attacking his playerslot.
That's a contradiction. Need I quote your exact words?

I think there are good reasons to vote for Acronach, but that Bub's reason was stupid.

Calling BS on this. When I'm feeling more coherent (Tomorrow, most likely), I'll elaborate. (Not very lucid right now. )

Still disliking zd's vote.

Pine wagon's bad, too. Seriously, an "active lurker" policy vote when that could apply to a good third (minimum!) of the playerlist?

@mastin[calcifer]: You say you are leaning VI on acronach, which I agree with, and that the lead would thus mean TS was scum. You then say "Twisted has convinced me Cecily is town", could you explain this further? thanks.

I think that it was pretty self-explanatory. Thinking TS was a suspect meant that TS's interaction with Cecily made me think Cecily wasn't scum, and augmented by my read at the time which would've been weak on its own, it cemented Cecily as town.

Since Nacho's given some input, that has since changed my mind. Again, when I'm more coherent, I'll be willing to further elaborate on my reads. (Right now, consider me effectively drunk. I am incapable of processing information as well as I normally would be.)

I have played with Mastin before, in that game he was a townie.
His posts felt more in-depth and helpful. I am getting a scum read on him because of this.

A few things are different, Furc.
1: This isn't a newbie game, and I'm not the IC.
2: I'm not a replacement. When I get to playing later in the game, my play will get a little more familiar. Settling in and all that.
3: I'm in a Hydra with Nacho. That obviously influences my posting style.
4: I just came out of a disastrous game which completely destroyed my confidence in my ability to read others. While both Nacho and I made mistakes and misread the game, I made FAR more than he did. (He had, like, ONE read which turned out wrong which I thought was wrong. Pretty much all his other reads I agreed with. :/ I had several reads I got wrong, and only a few of which he agreed with.)
5: Returning from LA means that I haven't gotten things down, yet. It takes a while to adjust back to Mafia when gone for a little over half a week (when I was still busy--for like a week or two--waiting for the game to begin and not being in any other games).

That's why things are different with me. It'll take time for things to get back to normal. Given a little bit of time, I'll be fine.

-A Mad (insane, not angry) Mastin who needs to get his head in the game.

[Furcolow]

Well, I'll say one thing:
You won't need to add signatures to your posts.

[evilpacman18]

Nacho has a town-read on Bub.

wut

[Magister Ludi]

I can't believe to myself that we've got active lurking so far, but the activity level of the three people I dislike the most

1. Bud
2. Nocmen
3. kcda

Is horrendous. zdenek can potentially join that group as well. Bud still tops the charts, I find his defense of his vote on pine half baked at best, and his statement about twisted spoon is just waffle.

I find my eyes glazing over when I read calcifer, which I dont like, and Furc wall reads like a wall of whipped cream; shiny (lots of reads!!!), but not much substance.

Furc, would you be willing to switch you vote onto Bud wagon to get it moving?

[Magister Ludi]

*Though I like zdeneks vote (on Buddy) his reason to switch from his terrible opening vote isn't particularly strong, nor is his insight or reads, as I find myself not agreeing with most of them, (Ion, Acro, Cecily).

[Bub Bidderskins]

Pine wagon's bad, too. Seriously, an "active lurker" policy vote when that could apply to a good third (minimum!) of the playerlist?

Yes, but that third of the player base isn't actively trying to convince the rest of the player base that they are keeping up with the game. Up to this point, Pine has posted zero content and yet he has made five posts that basically all say "hey guys, I'll post content later".

Still waiting on Ludi's explanation as to how his questions can give meaningful results. Until then I will reserve judgment as to his alignment.

All votes on pine are scummy. It is currently impossible to have a legitimate vote on Pine.

How is it impossible to have a legitimate vote on Pine? I have a legitimate vote on Pine: he's not posting content while attempting to give the illusion that he is going to post content in the future.

[Acronach]

Acronach (4/11): Ion67, Calcifer, Zdenek, Bub Bidderskins <--Contains one scum.
Not us, obviously. We've got a town-read on Ion, and Nacho has a town-read on Bub. (And at last check, was neutral on Zd.)
Process of elimination, Zdenek.
Twistedspoon (3/11): Thor665, Caboose, flinter
Bub Bidderskins (3/11): evilpacman18, Magister Ludi, Ion67
Acronach (3/11): Zdenek, Gollum, Ctorj49
Probably 2 scum in here, too.
Nacho has a scumread on Gollum, which I am beginning to agree with. This'd also allow for Zdenek to be scum, if all others are town. (We both have a town-read on Thor, Evil [obviously], Flinter, and Ion, and I have a town-read on Caboose and Ludi.) Acro's an extremely scum-driven wagon.

Not Voting (5): Cecily, TheJakalope, Furcolow, Pine, Kcdaspot <--All of these people have been online, and yet have no vote. I'd like to say 1-2 scum in here, but not sure.

kk, so why are there 2 wagons on me with different members on each 1?

[Magister Ludi]

Acronach, if you weren't voting Ctorj (who in all likelyhood is going to be replaced) who would you be voting?

[Acronach]

probably spoon for the "typo"

[evilpacman18]

My idea of not having that much time is typically logging on twice throughout the day. That isn't scarce at all, but the amount of players in this game makes it feel like an absolute necessity. I will be giving attention to this game and I will scum hunt, but right now there is nothing to go off of.

So far what I have on pretty much everyone in this game is this. They are going through and explaining how scum/town typically act while alluding to specific instances or rules which back them up. Then calling people out for saying stupid, "telling", or irrelevant things.

I personally love rvs, but hate the stage (this stage) that comes right after it. From my experience it's a bunch of people putting words into peoples mouths and misreading and misunderstanding. I will not be sucked in by your attempt to get me to vote prematurely.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that just because my vote is not out there does not mean I am not reading through and thinking about things. So far though, there is very little to think about.

I played with your kind a couple of games ago. You act like placing a vote early will result in a quicklynch. Trust me. Nobody's gonna sheep you that hard.
And honestly, I've seen very few games with this much important and readable content by page 8. I've played games where I had no reads into the 50s and I feel like I have some solid ones already here. There's two conclusions you should draw from this response.
1. I want you to stop being annoyingly hesitant and play the damn game.
2. I think you're town.

I can't believe to myself that we've got active lurking so far, but the activity level of the three people I dislike the most

1. Bud
2. Nocmen
3. kcda

Is horrendous. zdenek can potentially join that group as well. Bud still tops the charts, I find his defense of his vote on pine half baked at best, and his statement about twisted spoon is just waffle.

I find my eyes glazing over when I read calcifer, which I dont like, and Furc wall reads like a wall of whipped cream; shiny (lots of reads!!!), but not much substance.

Furc, would you be willing to switch you vote onto Bud wagon to get it moving?

Tell me, sir. What's your opinion on MrTrow, Ion67, TheJakalope, or Zombeh?

It reads to me of somebody who wants people to think that they're in the game when they really aren't.

This is generally town play in my experience.

Stop watching TV and get in the game, please.

Harsh. I see that as an attempt to nullify packman's claim of you only responding to posts about you. I am usually very cautious with my votes, but in a game this large, I don't think I need to be.

VOTE: Bub Bidderskins

My question is specifically referring to this. Obv scum vote if Bub turns out to be a mislynch.

I feel like the quote you posted actually does the opposite of make the two seem unrelated. I understand being cautious about voting, but withholding a vote because it is "too early" while there are very few other votes on the person could indicate scummy association. And now in a game of such a comfortable size that fear of an early lynch brought on by a scum partner is almost gone and so ion can vote as he wants.

I agree at this point with a pine wagon, because not only his lack of posting here, but his excessive posting in other threads. After saying that he was watching 30 rock he proceeded to post 15 times in other places showing he did actually have the attention for posting. Scum pine hides from questions with indications that he'll be back later and yet never returns.

vote: pine

Thor is right. Don't be silly.

Pine wagon's bad, too. Seriously, an "active lurker" policy vote when that could apply to a good third (minimum!) of the playerlist?

Yes, but that third of the player base isn't actively trying to convince the rest of the player base that they are keeping up with the game. Up to this point, Pine has posted zero content and yet he has made five posts that basically all say "hey guys, I'll post content later".

Still waiting on Ludi's explanation as to how his questions can give meaningful results. Until then I will reserve judgment as to his alignment.

All votes on pine are scummy. It is currently impossible to have a legitimate vote on Pine.

How is it impossible to have a legitimate vote on Pine? I have a legitimate vote on Pine: he's not posting content while attempting to give the illusion that he is going to post content in the future.

Do you know WHY though? He's said nothing that you can possibly get the implication he's trying to hide from us. It's much more likely that real life is getting in his way of playing, whether he wants to or not. Everybody who's voting Pine is putting so many words in his mouth you'd think he's Jesus.

[Magister Ludi]

Null, Null, Null, Voteable

[Zombeh-Pug]

I agree at this point with a pine wagon, because not only his lack of posting here, but his excessive posting in other threads. After saying that he was watching 30 rock he proceeded to post 15 times in other places showing he did actually have the attention for posting. Scum pine hides from questions with indications that he'll be back later and yet never returns.

You might as well vote for thelurkalope if you want to get on pine for excessive posting in other threads beside this one.

[TheJakalope]

I agree at this point with a pine wagon, because not only his lack of posting here, but his excessive posting in other threads. After saying that he was watching 30 rock he proceeded to post 15 times in other places showing he did actually have the attention for posting. Scum pine hides from questions with indications that he'll be back later and yet never returns.

You might as well vote for thelurkalope if you want to get on pine for excessive posting in other threads beside this one.

Sorry, if you look at my other games, I rarely like posting in the first couple pages, I find most reads you gain from the first couple pages are usually just misunderstandings, so I don't have many reads early in the game.

[Tasky]

farside22

replaces

Kcdaspot

, effective immediately. Thank you farside22.

[Thor665]

Thor is right. Don't be silly.

You missed the flow of my lol, for the record. I'll explain it, but I kinda want to see Ceily roll in and respond first.

Really not too found of Zombeh's deflection protection on pine...though I'll agree Jakalope responded awfully quickly to it. I'd add something, but I already have both of those guys on the scumlist already so...confirmation is me? Yes.

[Caboose]

farside22

replaces

Kcdaspot

, effective immediately. Thank you farside22.

Oh, HELL YEAH! Woohoo!

[Caboose]

Oh, wait a second, Furcolow is scum. Read his last wall, it's a doozy.

[Caboose]

WHY IS THERE NO ACTION HERE?!?

With the claim or me voting?
I don't want to rush into anything before I have to, in terms of voting. If you're talking about the role of survivor, in relation to us talking about the hider, it is because that is my interpretation of that role. I don't consider it a 3rd party Hider like it is seen on EM.

Notice this completely glosses over what Gollum was talking about (rushing into something? It's not like you're making a daykill, you can change your vote). No mention of flinter and Nocman, either.

@Furc - what's the value of the Nocman wagon?

It's better than I've seen of other wagons, though from the looks of it it died now. I am not fully caught up, since I am quoting from this point, but at the time I had noticed a few votes onto him that I felt weren't necessarily weak. I also disliked his timing on coming in right after he had accrued said votes. I am wondering if he would have actively lurked had he not been pressured. It's slightly better than a wagon on any random player, from my perspective.

This quote is excruciating, because I don't know if Furc thinks Nocmen is scummy NOW; and if he does, why does his vote remain idle?

obv scum is obv. we have 20 days to produce a lynch and you hop on the biggest wagon saying "it's the best we'll get for now"
srsly, if your gonna fail like that, at least try to look smart while doing so.

unvote vote ctorj49

I like this post in terms of mentioning how far the deadline is, but that is lessened in +town because you are the popular wagon at this point of the game where you said this, so although I like it, I have to consider it null, especially considering the weak town points you would gain from this are offset through an OMGUS vote. I will admit that you did provide some reasoning with it, to where it is nearly not an OMGUS vote, because his vote on you seemed both opportunistic and weak. What I mean is that he gave little to no reasoning, and the timing of it felt scummy.

You probably could have gotten this into a couple sentences at most. From my understanding, Acronach is still null (because....of some random reasoning I don't understand) and I guess you think the other guy who's name escapes me is scummy (this isn't obvious to me though; he doesn't get a vote, or even an FoS, though). Mealy-mouthing is a scumtell, Furc.

WOW pine in #168 is SERIOUSLY active lurking

Why is 168 particularly egregious?

Sell. Although, not at full price. I'd sell at a discount.
I am leaning more towards the scummy response coming from Ludi, because of how he sort of mudslinged onto Ion afterwards. I took note on that, definitely.

Wait, what? So you think Ludi is scummy, and what about Bub?
What's your reservation about not buying EPM's associative tell here?

Hoping Acronach flips scum due to his backtracking on his townread on me, moving me to the "lurker" category, which is a scum-EM term for a mislynch tbh. His accounts on EM are actually quite pitiful. I could have as many points as either of them in a few days.

Oh yeah, because moving you from your undeserved space in the "semi-town" list to the lurker list where you belong is super-scummy.

Dislike Thor's #191. It is hypocritical in that he is saying he's not going to be active enough to defend a vote, even POSTING A WALL about it, yet attacks Cecily for not scumhunting.

OK, read the whole post again, and this time try to comprehend what's going on.

I like it as a sort of reactionary test, if that's what it was, but that is it.
I dislike it because I feel he made excuses for some of the things he softly attacked Cecily for.
It is of note that Cecily's defense sucked

Oh, so Cecily doesn't come out of this looking good, either. It's getting hard to see out my visor with the amount of mud being flung around.

Another thing from it that is noteworthy is that Thor said "you won't find me on any bandwagons" or "leading any lynches" but his vote is on a top wagon, and is the first vote.

Considering LAL here.

I don't even know what to say to this.

Cecily was looking bad, as was Bub, but I like the Pine votes. I feel he was actively lurking, and am happy with a wagon here.

vote: Pine

...and to top it all off, an anticlimatic vote on someone you didn't really talk that much about anyway. Also, you're apparently willing to jump on a wagon ridden by a couple people you think are scummy.

Caboose's Quick Recap of who's scummy according to Furcolow's post:

Nocmen

: discussed earlier during the verbal diarrhea session

Calcifier

(mastin): Meta

Ctorj49

: Opportunistic, weak acronach vote

Cecily

: Defense of CJ and other stuff, I guess

Kcdaspot

: Reaction to my accusation

Pine

: Active lurking in one post

Ludi

: Ion mudslinging

Acronach

: Backtracking on townread

Thor

: Hypocrisy and LAL

Bub

: Can't find this reason

Honorable Mentions:

Caboose

: Mastin chainsaw defense

flinter

: not really sure about this one, either; it looks like his view of her improved, something about a serbian jew, so I demoted her to this category

Did I miss anyone?

People who've played with Furc a lot before:

Does Furc usually tend to give out excessive scumreads like this?