130.Mirror Mafia - Game Over

[evilpacman18]

I can't get behind any of the lynches you're suggesting yet, Calc. Think I'll reread at some point.

[Pine]

Okay, my week of hell is over, and I'm back from visiting family and friends. My participation in this game will pick up significantly now. Lurking from this point on should be viewed unkindly, and I invite you to call me on it.

[Ion67]

I was out of town and a bit unactive before that. Hopefully I can get a good post up tonight!

Sorry guys

[Bunnylover]

Here I am, will read the thread eventually (Today/tomorrow).

[Calcifer]

Hi, Bunny. Sorry you had to replace in for scum. That must suck.

Thor--you meant this?

How about instead of just grumping about some wagons you actually explain the Gollum read - that would be more helpful to me.

<<<It would be far easier to list the things which Gollum has done that are town, rather than the quite extensive list of things making them scum. Seriously, look at Gollum's posts, and tell me, with a straight face, that it's pro-town play. I DARE you to.>>>

More than that: Gollum is confirmed scum by VCA; a Gollum-scum lynch would also create someone else who's confirmed town by VCA. And if SOMEHOW Gollum is town, said person would instead by confirmed-scum.
In other words, we get a guaranteed scum flip with Gollum, or the other person, and if we get the scum first, the other is confirmed-town.

And your wrong Cecily wagon read could be Cecily herself so...

<<<Admittedly? Cecily COULD be scum. But Cecily's lynch gives us NO information other than Cecily's alignment. Who is Cecily connected to, if scum? Who would be bussing Cecily, if scum? Who would be easy-wagoning Cecily, if town? I can't figure that out with a Cecily lynch, whereas I CAN figure it out with a lynch of any of the three I mention. Simply put, Cecily gives me no additional information, whereas Farside, Zdenek, AND Gollum all do.>>>

I don't understand the Nocmen read - all I'm getting there is newb, not newb town.

<<<Nocmen's join date is 2007, Thor. Nocmen's no newbie. That said, however, you'll have to ask Nacho why he has the town-read; I--personally--do not.>>>

So, I'd prefer not explaining my reasons in more detail, but I'm quite convinced that Gollum, Zdenek, and Farside contains 2-3 scum, and that lynching them will give us the rest of the scumteam, regardless of their flip.

I can't say the same of Cecily, or even Bub. If they die, what do I gain?
I gain nothing. I know nothing more than I did the day before. Oh, I'll know the alignment of them, and I'll know the alignment of any killed during the night phase, sure. But the interactions, the information gained, for both Cecily and Bub?

Quite frankly sucks. It's horrible how little this lynch will profit us.

-Low chance of hitting scum.
-Low information gain, regardless of flip.

I do not support either lynch, and you'd better make a DARN-good case to convince me otherwise. Not only do you have to convince me they're scum (preferably with one or two other people you explicitly believe they are scum with--I'm not talking about two separate people being individually scummy; I'm talking about two people being connected!), but you ALSO have to convince me that you'll know who the scumteam is if they're town.

...See?
This is why I don't give reasons.
'Cause while perfectly sensible to me, the above might not make sense to you. (And I haven't even begun to explain why Gollum, Farside, and Zdenek are better; all I've done is show you why Bub and Cecily AREN'T.)

[Thor665]

Probably a quote tag, I'd guess. Just smile and act polite about it or he modkills you

[Thor665]

<<<It would be far easier to list the things which Gollum has done that are town, rather than the quite extensive list of things making them scum. Seriously, look at Gollum's posts, and tell me, with a straight face, that it's pro-town play. I DARE you to.>>>

His ISO 5 looks town to me, and I said as much at the time. He had issues with Acro's actions but actually took the time to click a link rather than just scream how it was obvious scummy talk.
I don't find the rest of his iso townish, but yet I don't find it scummy either. Worst (and best) I could say is that it's a lurker slot. Yeah, he sucks for that - but I don't see that as a runaway case that, paired with the Acro vote, makes him obv. scum with the whole scumteam setup before us on a neat platter.

More than that: Gollum is confirmed scum by VCA; a Gollum-scum lynch would also create someone else who's confirmed town by VCA. And if SOMEHOW Gollum is town, said person would instead by confirmed-scum.

Why are you being vague about these? If I thought I had information that solid I'd be screaming it from the rooftops and trying to throttle people with it.

So, I'd prefer not explaining my reasons in more detail, but I'm quite convinced that Gollum, Zdenek, and Farside contains 2-3 scum, and that lynching them will give us the rest of the scumteam, regardless of their flip.

Hmmm, I'm null on Gollum and townish on farside. Would you be as happy lynching Zdenek as Gollum? If we lynch Zdenek do we get explained the obvious connections?

you'd better make a DARN-good case to convince me otherwise. Not only do you have to convince me they're scum (preferably with one or two other people you explicitly believe they are scum with--I'm not talking about two separate people being individually scummy; I'm talking about two people being connected!), but you ALSO have to convince me that you'll know who the scumteam is if they're town.

I could certainly provide this to the level you're doing so If Cecily flips scum than the scumteam is Cecily, Bub, and that Magister dude. Also, there is someone who will be definitely cleared OoooooWHEEEEooooo ::waves hand in mystical incantations::.

I've yet to see a Day 1 scumteam prediction bear fruit (unless maybe it was by furc or something, and he accusses so many people of so many things he always has a reference to 'calling it right' by the end ). I can't even think of anyone else on site (including Nacho) who plays that way and am surprised you seem to take that as base 1 starting point of how to scumhunt - especially considering you're being vague in your points.

...See?
This is why I don't give reasons.
'Cause while perfectly sensible to me, the above might not make sense to you. (And I haven't even begun to explain why Gollum, Farside, and Zdenek are better; all I've done is show you why Bub and Cecily AREN'T.)

This I agree with
If you're right you're failing at one of the basics of playing town - part of it is being right, and the other part is convincing others you're right. COuld you at least tear down Cecily as a wagon more effectively to convince me to get off it? I can buy Bub as a sudden spurt growth wagon I suppose (though even you are agreeing he looks bad for it) but I don't see the vague "compromise" claims that should have me fleeing for my life from Cecily at all.

Mostly I sort of feel like you'd rather I was playing a Fate meta, but I'm more pedantic than that despite what some people think.

[Furcolow]

Furc - The issue I have with your meta is that your posts are highly scummy, even if you are town. That means I will constantly still keep you in suspicion. The fact that you're aware of your meta between town and scum is WIFOM as your defense. But I do like your vote and reasoning behind it.

It's not WIFOM when I am unable to fake walls as scum.

Nocmen and Caboose sparing with furc combined with my slight town read on furc makes me believe one of them is scum, and its possibly Noc since MrTrow's throw-away vote on caboose smells scummy to me.

I really wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. Caboose was an earlier town read, while I was a little iffy on Nocmen for awhile in my gut and heart. It's not great to be emotional in mafia, though, so I sought out trying to create a case in which we can gain not only wagon analysis through a lynch, but putting people into camps on Cecily.

So far people who I don't think want Cecily lynched are:
Farside,
Calcifer,
and yourself, Ludi

I'm sure there are others.

People who would be happy to lynch Cecily are definitely myself and Pine. I wouldn't be surprised if Pine was scum if Cecily was town, and I wouldn't mind getting a little heat myself for pushing the mislynch if it so happened to be one.

If you want to explore a wagon on Nocmen because of that feeling, Ludi, I would definitely support it. The fact I am so eager to agree with the statement I cut out of your quote has me bettering my read on you in favor of being town, though I dislike your assessment of the Cecily wagon in terms of being able to write off Cecily as town.

Calcifer's #288 has me happy with my vote
going to look into him with Farside is Cecily flips scum

Furclow: You know I'm replacing in this game? I'm asking this because I read the pages and came to conclusions from my read. I can't help that people in the game beat me to same conclusion.
Also please explain how someone on your scummy list is pushing a mislynch. Your comment to me doesn't make sense.

I am aware you replaced for the guy who had the Einstein avatar with lightning bolts shooting out of his eyes. I take it you haven't made it through all of my walls, yet? Perhaps your memory isn't the best? I talked about your predecessor in my posts before. He made a minor slip, even.

-cut wagon analysis-
Process of elimination, Zden and farside. ("...Process of eliminator for what?" One to two scum, of course.)
-cut wagon analysis-
Nacho has a town-read on Nocmen (I don't), I have a town-read on Pine

I have a town read on Zdenek, but would be happy with Farside, though not today.

Nacho's read on Nocmen is from what?
Your town read on Pine is from what?
You implying that the read on Nocmen being split means you believe he is scum, or are you null on him?
You implying that the read on Pine being town isn't shared with Nacho means nacho views him as scum or null?

More than that: Gollum is confirmed scum by VCA; a Gollum-scum lynch would also create someone else who's confirmed town by VCA. And if SOMEHOW Gollum is town, said person would instead by confirmed-scum.

Why are you being vague about these? If I thought I had information that solid I'd be screaming it from the rooftops and trying to throttle people with it.

I, also, would like to know about your vote count analysis.
I am not going to give up beating into people's heads that we will get a ton of information out of Cecily's lynch.
Hell, you yourself defending Cecily is definitely added to that. Buddying up to a town flip, Calcifer?

Really liking Thor's #306, though I disagree with him on Zdenek. Can't be perfect, though, can we bro?

Agree with players like myself, Thor, Bub Bidderskins and Pine looking a lot better with a Cecily lynch
Players like Calcifer, Ludi, and Farside could use some rope if Cecily is scum, though.

I wouldn't mind stringing Calcifer up regardless if he doesn't explain his vote count analysis he claims to have, really. All I'm hearing from him is that he has all of this down pat, his reads are solid, he has caught 3 scum, but he has no analysis to back it up. I'd like to see logic, and reason, not "GOLLUM AND FARSIDE ARE SCUM". If you can write that there are 2/3 scum, you can write WHY Gollum, Farside, and Zdenek have 2/3 scum, which you are not doing.

[Calcifer]

*sigh*
Fine. You guys'll wish I didn't ('cause I suck at it), but I'll get around to making a Gollum case if you insist. (Nacho'd probably be better at it, though.)

Hmmm, I'm null on Gollum and townish on farside. Would you be as happy lynching Zdenek as Gollum? If we lynch Zdenek do we get explained the obvious connections?

I prefer Gollum, due to completely and totally confirming another player as the opposite alignment, rather than farside or Zdenek, who only, like, 80-90% confirm the alignment of other players. And I have (at last check, anyway) Nacho's support on Gollum, too.
But yes. Yes, I would love to see Zdenek lynched. While it doesn't as concretely solidify the alignment of other players as I'd like it to (that'd be Gollum), it still does so a HECK of a lot more than Cecily or Bub would.

could certainly provide this to the level you're doing so

While I am aware of the irony of me asking for something which I have not myself given, that's due to the fact that I really suck with words and explaining things, my thought process is hard to follow, etc. But I have it down, strongly, and I mean it quite sincerely. It makes logical sense to me, and I have a perfect train of thought on the matter and will defend my opinions. I'm just horrible at telling others said thought process. I will do so, soon enough (and you'll regret the wall inevitably to follow >_<), but I'm asking anyone to do the same.

-Tell me why Bub/Cecily is scum. Write a convincing case. I'm going to go through the effort of making one against Gollum/Zdenek/Farside; you surely can do the same.
-Tell me who their partners are. And I want to know what makes them partners. In my experience, people who are individually scummy for different reasons are VERY rarely connected as a team, so I don't want you to say, "X did scummy thing Y, and Z did scummy thing A." (While that HAS worked in the past, it is VERY rare for it to do so, in my experience.) I want you to say, "X did this in relationship to Z, and that connection makes them scumbuddies." If, uh, that makes sense.
-Tell me who the scumteam is if you're WRONG about Bub/Cecily and they flip town. Tell me you have an equal number of suspects, and tell me why they are scum if you're wrong. Like I intend to do with Gollum/Zdenek/Farside.

Esentially, I want to know. I want you to explain exactly what information you all gain from Bub/Cecily being lynched today. I want you to explain to me how if they flip town/scum, we won't be set essentially back to square one on day two. (Which is what I feel like. We'd have information, sure, but it'd be vastly worthless, for the most part.)

I can explain to you what information we gain from Gollum/Zdenek/Farside. (Not very well--which is why I prefer to not do so; words are not my strongsuit ) I can tell you EXACTLY why one of them should be the lynch today, tell you how with them dead, we've had a productive day regardless of their flip.

'Cause I honestly can't see that with Cecily/Bub. I see no significant informational gain. I see nothing which will scream if either of them are scum/town, that "PERSON X IS SCUM!" Or even, "THIS GUY'S TOWN!" I DO see that in Zdenek/Gollum/Farside. I see the strings which help tell me what's going on in the game. I see what is essentially the key to the game, in their deaths.

(Like I said. I hate explaining myself, because it's a difficult task to put something which makes perfect sense in my mind into terms which are easier for others to understand. But if I succeed, then you'll know exactly what I'm talking about when I say that those three need to die as quickly as possible, regardless of their actual alignment, because it'll help bring down the entire scumteam. And I'm asking for someone to do the same with Cecily/Bub if they can. I'm asking for someone to explain in detail why if they die, the game's a guaranteed town victory, regardless of their flip.
...Does any of that make sense? >_<)

If you're right you're failing at one of the basics of playing town - part of it is being right, and the other part is convincing others you're right.

Oh, heck yeah I suck at the latter. I wrote a Guide on it ("Mastin's Guide To Playing Well", if you're interested) from my experiences failing, not from experiences of success.
My personal preference is to get my reads out there, and let my meta kick in. (That is, that asking me to explain is a VERY BAD IDEA which results in an endless compilation of countless walls, which are hard to understand, but contain a lot of valid points if you can figure out how to read them. And that I prefer not to do so 'cause it clutters the thread. Like I'm doing right now. I hate cluttering the thread with my rambling. :/)

Could you at least tear down Cecily as a wagon more effectively to convince me to get off it?

It'll be a little difficult, considering Cecily's been a null read for the most part. But I'll try.

I can buy Bub as a sudden spurt growth wagon I suppose (though even you are agreeing he looks bad for it) but I don't see the vague "compromise" claims that should have me fleeing for my life from Cecily at all.

This I CAN do. It's a simple matter of looking at the thread and pointing out everyone's interactions with Cecily. I think you'd find an alarming amount putting Cecily on their list, but not high up on it. That's where the feeling of a "Compromise Lynch" comes from. Going after Cecily feels not like a wagon where people are voting their number one--heck, in some cases, not even their number two!--suspect, but rather, their number three, number four, number five...

It's in everyone's posts, if you read the thread. I'll show it.

Sorry. Have a relative visiting, and again my computer's a bit messed up, and it's a holiday, and *long rambly list of reasons I'm not very coherent*, so I'm not as sensible as I should be right now.

But, oh, trust me. I'm not going to let Bub/Cecily die without a fight. Not when their lynches are so poor compared to Zdenek/Gollum/Farside.

[Furcolow]

Calcifer, what you're asking someone to do I have done
Scumskim, much?

[Calcifer]

Furc, I did not see it.
I saw a case, sure.
I saw you calling out a bunch of names.

But, uh, Thor was kinda right--
You called too many names out for me to really pinpoint it down.

I saw you calling lots of people scum in lots of different scenarios. And, sure, you gave your reasons. But it was really hard for me to concretely see your take on the game. It felt like you're town flailing out to try and lock onto something, not like you already had latched onto something. (Not meant as an insult or an accusation. Town-flailing can be a good thing; it creates interesting theories and all that.)

-Will return when I'm more coherent. (ACK. I HAD IT A COUPLE DAYS AGO!)

[farside22]

I am aware you replaced for the guy who had the Einstein avatar with lightning bolts shooting out of his eyes. I take it you haven't made it through all of my walls, yet? Perhaps your memory isn't the best? I talked about your predecessor in my posts before. He made a minor slip, even.

Fair enough. I read the guy myself and cringed. I had a flash back to another game I replaced someone that was town but played horribly. That was reading 106 pages.

Calcifer: hmmm I actually had seperate reason's for each of my scum suspects. I actually did make a case on Bud, which I feel most have ignored, but I will look to see if there is a connection. I also need to do this for Nocmen who is the next person I find scummy.

[farside22]

Okay so looking at Noman and Bud I found a few things that if they flipped scum I would lynch the other, here is why:

Bud questions nomen's vote but never progress or says anything further. I don't see the point of asking a question and going no further. Basically I see this as light comments made with no follow through means not trying to make a link.

I would put Ludi in the questionable stage and dependant on Bud's flips do to this comment:

Now the reasons behind Ludi's questions make sense, but I doubt that anything serious will come out from that. Still, his reasons weren't total crap and were noble in their objective, so I've going to say that Ludi is town.

His reason's for finding Ludi town are weak and total on the basis of some questions that I answered more do to personal reason's then anything else. I don't see how asking questions and coming up with something like Ludi who hasn't really done much with it = town.

With Nocman I notice twice where he attacks (and I use that word lightly) people who vote for Bud.

Ion's vote on Bub - out of the blue, very concerning.

I feel like zd put a bit too much in his post where he voted Bub, trying to create reasons when he just wanted to wagon.

He doesn't say what about Zd's post made him feel this way or anything negative about Bud when things are brought up he continues to ignore it and now the only thing he is talking about is his pointless vote against Thor with me. Or putting down Fur's post.

Also look at his scum list here:

Of the people who are actually productive, the top of my scum list are cecily and to an extent Furc, but as I mentioned, It's hard to tell with Furc having a meta like that. Below that I'd put Ion, and zd.

2 people that were voting bud and furc with no reason I found. Then Cecily who seems to be the popular wagon.

[Calcifer]

Do note:
This is a quick skim, on a messed up computer, when I am in a bit of a rush. It is not going to be 100% accurate. It fails to take into consideration changed reads, but that part's intentional. (Votes moved should be moved from "Direct" to "indirect", but never removed from the list. Past willingness to lynch--even a Random Vote--tends to mean slightly increasing willingness to vote 'em in the future. If that makes sense.)

VOTE: Bubfor the Great fishbowl disaster

Twisted's "random" vote.
Bub Direct (main) - 1
Bub indirect - 0.

[quote="Quillford]Oh, and random vote
VOTE: Bub Bidderskins
for having the number which is the digital root of mine.[/quote]Quillford (Later Caboose) also "random" votes Bub.
Bub Direct - 2.

Kcd (later Farside) random votes Cecily.
Bub Direct - 2.
Cecily Direct - 1.

Gollum and Ludi both question Bub back to back on page 5. Evil also expresses distrust of Bub. On that same page, Twisted switches from Bub to Cecily.
Zdenek gets both of them, too.

I think Bub's reasons for getting on the Acronach wagon were pretty poor.

[-cut-]

[After Quoting Cecily] This is coasting through the early game without stating opinions.

Bub Direct - 2.
Bub indirect - 4.
Cecily Direct - 2.
Cecily Indirect - 1.

-I enter the game on page six with a negative Bub read, too. AND a Cecily read as well. (It said scummy before, and town at the end--for the sake of this, I'll count it as a willingness to lynch.)

-Ludi re-states (now more clearly) a willingness to lynch Bub--asking others if they would.

Bub Direct - 2.
Bub indirect - 5.
Cecily Direct - 2.
Cecily Indirect - 2.

Bub's vote is odd. He basically repeats Calcifers reason with other words. Having that in a quote already.

And another one for Bub.

Page seven also sees Ludi's vote on Bub become official.

Ion also votes Bub.

More than that, Thor says "I can now see the Bub case". He also has interest in Cecily, too. In other words, page seven sees both shoot way up in suspicion.

Bub Direct - 4.
Bub indirect - 5.
Cecily Direct - 2.
Cecily Indirect - 3.

Page 8 sees Acro list Bub as semi-scum. That's enough to be on the indirect list. (Eventually, I might go and subdivide the "indirect" to classify it on a rough scale where Bub fits.)

Also, Zdenek changes to Bub officially.

Bub Direct - 4.
Bub indirect - 5.
Cecily Direct - 2.
Cecily Indirect - 3.

Cecily was looking bad, as was Bub, but I like the Pine votes.

And that, on page nine, adds an indirect on both of them.

Thor also switches from Twisted to Cecily.

Caboose also dislikes Cecily, too.

So, Page 9 is another major influence on Cecily/Bub.

Bub Direct - 4.
Bub indirect - 6.
Cecily Direct - 3.
Cecily Indirect - 4.

Twisted's 227 seems like a minor Cecily accusation.

Farside also states suspicion of Cecily and Bub. Votes Bub.

Furc clarifies stance: states a willingness to lynch Cecily, and dislike of Bub.

Nocmen also votes Cecily, too.

So, changes at the end of 10, too. Rough stance?

Bub Direct - 5.
Bub indirect - 6.
Cecily Direct - 4.
Cecily Indirect - 6.

Give or take.

Page 11 sees Pine join in against Cecily.

-Page 12 has Furcolow move votes to Cecily.
Zdenek also gets off.

Bub Direct - 4.
Bub indirect - 7.
Cecily Direct - 5.
Cecily Indirect - 5.

So, yeah. That's ~11 (a lynch) on Bub, and close-to on Cecily. (These are all just estimates made from a quick skim, but still, it's accurate enough to give you the trend.) In other words, lots of people are on them. And yet, half/more than half of those are indirect votes, people who aren't voting but have expressed (currently or in the past) interest in voting one/either of them.


Haven't done those who are willing to defend against a Cecily/Bub lynch, but it's a significantly smaller number.


Sorry that this doesn't make much sense. I'm still tired, on a holiday, with a relative, on a messed up computer, after all.

[Thor665]

I can grok the information you are showing, but fail to translate it into actionable data.

I have been in games both currently and in the past where too many people have expressed suspicion and I was all "whoa, hey now, buckos!" and then somebody hammers and - boom, scumflip. Just because someone is suspected and talked about doesn't empirically prove much of anything as far as alignment goes (at least until a flip happens and you can look back). I will agree the slop over from Bud is telling, and is probably the reason I am slightly distrustful of that wagon insomuch as it feels like a growth spurt that was a recent event. But I note the Cecily growth in recent pages is, to my mind, a direct outgrowth of her posting and acting in a scummy manner recently and people reacting to that scumtell by either agreeing it's a scumtell or disagreeing - hence the indirects as people comment on the action.

In short, I suspect your method would tend to showcase lots of indirect defense and offense towards a player whenever they become the topic of discussion and people do the natural action of weighing in with thoughts (or being cajoled/demanded to do the same). Just because someone has indirect attention on them though doesn't clarify much alignment information to my mind - as regardless of alignment scum and town are likely to pile onto a wagon to some degree.

I expressed a potential willingness to help you lynch Zdenek (one of your scum trifecta) and get off Cecily (one of your towns in need of a white knight) Why no real excitement to make that happen?

[Bunnylover]

I'm gonna do something that I've never done in a serious game of mafia. Claim in my first post.

I'm the Town Hider. I figure I can use this power in 3 ways. I can say who I'm going to hide behind BEFORE each night and if I die without the person I'm hiding behind dying then you have confirmed scum and if I live you have confirmed town. Or I could say who I hide behind AFTER each night and since I'm still alive you'll have confirmed town. Or I could not say anything and just protect myself.

Flaws in each idea.
1. The biggest flaw in the first idea is that without the aid of a doctor or other protective role scum could just kill who I'm protecting to get rid of two town in one night.
2. The second idea seems like a good one to me, I can't really see anything wrong with it unless the game ends up having third parties that scum are trying to find, I could potentially eliminate candidates for them.
3. This just seems selfish and a waste.

Also, acronach, gtfo my avatar. :p

Why? WHY? WHY?
Scum could have a roleblocker, which means your dead.
You could be an investigation immune godfather.
Why the hell would you claim?

Why is everyone making sure to say random vote?

Oh, now I get why you claimed pacman. Interesting. I would say tell us before, because if you die and were going to tell us after, we won't know .

Since everyone is answering that one guy question, I will too.
1) Work alone. This world is corrupted by money, and I need that money v_v.
2) 1st time playing through, do it myself. 2nd time playing it through, use a guide so I can get all the secret stuff :3.
3) lol, if only I knew how to ride a bike .
4) Fish.
Do I win?

Agree with Flinter response on Calicifer theory of what Pacman should do.

@Zdenek: Cjmiller never requested a V/LA.

I think Cjmiller posting was saying that he in no position to be playing mafia, not as mafia. Weird though.

Page 6 and will continue reading tomorrow.

[Magister Ludi]

MrTrow, farside22, zombeh (Bunny), Bub, lurker/potentially more.

This makes sense to me. I can't really explain it, (and this late at night don't have time) but for whatever reason this team of scum seems right. I'll try and unpack in subsequent posts.

(prods on Gollum et al. @ mod please)

[Magister Ludi]

Insert thejakalope in that list.

This man's last post in this game is to critisize another player for posting 'many times' in other threads while neglecting this one. Iso his account. He has had enough time to not only post in other games (to the avoidance of this one), he has the time to SIGN UP for another game.

It seems like selective posting. In fact, it is.

[Calcifer]

Just because someone is suspected and talked about doesn't empirically prove much of anything as far as alignment goes (at least until a flip happens and you can look back).

But it's the way they're talked about which is telling. It's something I just happen to know. Not gut, but something extraordinarily difficult to explain. Cecily feels like the compromise lynch which has scum who take advantage of it and town who just settle (begrugingly) on it.

Essentially, Cecily doesn't look like a good lynch due to how hard it'd be to discern information from it, due to the nature of the lynch. I find it extremely difficult to tell the opportunistic/bussing scum votes from the compromising town ones.

Whereas with Zdenek, Farside, and Gollum, I have that clear view on them. I have that complete and total clarity on 'em, on who'd be town and who'd be scum, regardless of their flips. I'll get around to explaining why if I can. (But, once more, I'll remind you that I REALLY suck at explaining things, and much prefer not to.)

I expressed a potential willingness to help you lynch Zdenek (one of your scum trifecta) and get off Cecily (one of your towns in need of a white knight) Why no real excitement to make that happen?

Whadda ya call this?

I prefer Gollum rather than farside or Zdenek, but only just. But yes. HECK YES! Yes, I would love to see Zdenek lynched. It does so a HECK of a lot more than Cecily or Bub would!

Cutting out the reasons I gave, adding emphasis which would've been there without the reasons, small stuff like that, but this is more or less what I was saying. I'd call that excitement.

[MrTrow]

I don't like MrTrow's 279 because it lacks scum-hunting. He jokes with Pine, he comments about his playstyle to Furclow, he asks Calcifer for explanations, he talks about Pacman's claim.

More importantly, MrTrow talks about the logic of the argument that Ion is scum if Bub is town. This is noteworthy because scum often likes to make purely logical arguments because they are bound to be correct. He also carefully goes through the argument about whether 3rd party is alive at lylo means an auto loss for town. Neither of these efforts contributes to scum hunting.

At the end of all of it, he votes for Caboose for not voting Furclow, and later he says that it was a pressure vote.

So he has found nothing scummy worth commenting on all game.

Not very much no: I have quite some trouble getting into the game, so i have very little gut-reads (or see motivations behind actions).
And i don`t see that changing in the near future: so i`ll be replacing out after this post.


but let`s see what you`re saying here:
- i asked some reason, to get some material other than a 'trust me' out of a player who tends to get away with it, under the excuse, 'you wouldn`t understand the way i think anyway', which in the cases i read, i usually did.
By the last few posts i`m not sure he`s really that uncertain about, 'how readable his thoughts are' or he`s trying to drown things out by acting like it (really tend to the former though).

- the 'talk about pacman`s claim': especially how (assuming he`s town) scum would try to provide the 'worst possible usage' that can be sold to town as 'best possible usage' as it prevents proper usage against their faction (and gaining some town points in the process):
This is what i believe Flinter called Calificer out on: Unlikely to be the same faction.
Flinter herself made a similar 'potentially scum-motivated' suggestion later in the discussion (the 'don`t hide behind questional-allignment-players, it will get you killed and limits our number of results'-post resulting in more results of less value)
However as this happened so late in the discussion it`s (far) less likely to be the objective of the suggestion.
Kcda`s obv-scum-burst at flinter shows a clear preference(whether or not this preference was in any way related to the case is unclear)

Both Flinter and Calificer look town for trying to come with the best possible outcome.
Flinter is less likely to be faking this

The 'logic-is-a-scumtell' argument.... well need i say more?
Owyeah: i called the 2 'an unlikely scumteam, nothing more to tell by that alone (b.t.w. (why) did you asume there is but 1 scum-team)'

As for the 3rd-party-lylo-discussion: what`s wrong with pointing out something that`s completely wrong?:
especially if it`s main part of a case.


As for the pressure vote thing:
Caboose builds a case of wagon-starting size, yet he`s unwilling to place his vote on this. (instead he keeps it on a place where it will do absolutely nothing)
I call this out and vote accordingly, as 'my old case' was mainly 'that`s not really a reread'. What`s the problem in that?


Hereby the rest of what i`ve found(i know it`s not much):
TwistedSpoon`s 'calls for lynch on confirmed town'@Acro:
The way i saw it:
- call for a lynch was the vote pacman should have gotten from Acro`s 'survivor-assumption'
- the confirmed town comes from, the 'survivor-assumption' is disproven, supporting pac`s claim.
result: 'it`s weird Acro didn`t vote the 'now confirmed' pacman'.
The one thing i really don`t get though: How is it possible TS himself couldn`t figure out his own thoughts

Furc was 'in favor of a flip for info (on bub)', didn`t go for it as 'the veterans are against it'
Now calicifer is doing almost exactly the same thing (no tell either way, it just caught my eye)

I assume it must have been Nacho who came up with the plan on 'how to use pacman' as otherwise mastin would have responded sooner to flinter`s arguments

I wish you all a good game.

[Tasky]

pappums rat

replaces

MrTrow

, effective immediately. Thanks pappums rat!

[Twistedspoon]

picked up a PM will post more detailed soon

[Acronach]

srry, busy weekend. gonna catch up.

[Twistedspoon]

upon recaping it seems the cecily wagon has grown

Interestingly my vote appeared to have started the wagon

Sorry, if you look at my other games, I rarely like posting in the first couple pages,

well It's the 11th now and you've still had ~0 content

I want reads from Jakalope please

I, personally, am not opposed to a Cecily lynch.

-Twisted's convinced me Cecily's town.

what happened here?

I'm going to look over the Gollum case now

[pappums rat]

unvote
vote pine

God, these walls are terrible. It was such a struggle to keep up with this game while I was reading along. But here are my thoughts:

There have only been a few real contributers to this game, so most people at this point are null. My top scumreads as of right now are pine and bunnylover. I don't like the wagons on Bub or Cecily, they are both townreads of mine. pine has done nothing but active lurk all game. Every post except one has been promising to post later, and the one that isn't is just a quote from an epicmafia link. He has completely managed to keep from being involved in day one at all, with the only exception being his poor Cecily vote.

I don't understand the case on Gollum, and would like it explained a little more concisely if you would Calcifer.

MrTrow, farside22, zombeh (Bunny), Bub, lurker/potentially more.

This makes sense to me. I can't really explain it, (and this late at night don't have time) but for whatever reason this team of scum seems right. I'll try and unpack in subsequent posts.

(prods on Gollum et al. @ mod please)

Trying to tie a scumteam together without any flips is not a viable strategy, I'm afraid. Every time someone tries this it does not turn out well. Trust me, I know from experience.