The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Mastermate]

YosFlavouredCayke ISO:

For tldr, skip down to "Conclusions"

YosFlavouredCayke and pathetrick backed each other up as probably town for most of Day 1, and then pathetrick showed up dead the first night. Could have been a scum ploy to make YosFlavouredCayke look good.

In general, YosFlavouredCayke was very buddy-buddy with pathetrick, essentially citing their outside friendship as a reason to think they were town. Comments like "Ether doesn't say she's town unless she's town" have no real meaning in a game of mafia. The same with "I didn't think there's any way that anyone pro-town could read Ether's posts and not see that they all screamed town." Neither provide any actual reasoning to think pathetrick was protown, but this opinion seems to be the basis of many of YosFlavouredCayke's actions on Day 1. Given Yos' tendency to be a very logically driven player, I'm not liking this coming from him.

YosFlavouredCayke defended Frogito Ergo Scum when prompted to. They have also been fixated on Final Destination since Day 1, and had only a small reason to vote them in the first place. Even when Yos went back and did ISOs on people, here was the total reasoning for Pathetric and Final Destination:

"100% superdupertriplelooper obvtown"
"scummy."

Since they hadn't presented much to begin with, this doesn't amount to very much.

Since Yos tried to defend himself by saying buddying is not a scumtell, I'll address that as well. Buddying in and of itself is not a scumtell, but it is a scumtell when there is no reasoning presented to back up strong declarations of someone's innocence. The same applies to attacking someone, so it's less about the act of buddying and more about the lack of evidence.

Cayke claims that FD had been the focus for a lot of their posts, but there had been no real content other than the slight scumtell mentioned in the inital vote. I don't know if she's just not paying attention, or if they're trying to pull the wool over our eyes. If you say something enough times it must be true! [/obvobv] The point here is that they may have spent time talking about FD and accusing them of being scum, but they didn't spend a lot of time actually presenting reasons for FD to be scum, so to go through and do ISOs of everyone and then just conclude that FD is "scummy." doesn't sit well with me at all, and it feels like a copout.

On the other hand, I feel compelled to point out that some of the attacks on YosFlavouredCayke have been poorly explained/executed, and I don't necessarily agree with them. The idea that they are scum just because pathetrick is town (this was on Day 1) is retarded, so I don't know what Beaver Weasel was smoking. It's not as simple as that, and to try and formulate an attack in that manner isn't useful at all.

More defense of FES.

Next a lurker wagon, then OMGUSing and OMGUS attack on themselves. Went gung-ho after DaSpot, kinda odd after the complete lack of arguments presented against FD, who was obvscum up until the point that Cayke decided to disagree with Yos and call them town, at which point Yos completely stopped mentioning them.

I don't like the argument that people who felt pathetrick might be scum are probably scum themselves. It completely fails to acknowledge that townies can be wrong and that scum who *know* pathetrick is town can also call them protown in order to win points with the rest of the town.

More defense of FES, saying they are "so obviously a mislynch, it hurts to watch." Another emotional ploy without any reasoning. So far the only reasoning I have found is CES' stubbornness being a town tell, nothing else.

Agreed that voting someone you think is scum is never a useless endeavor. Good logic here.

When finally pushed to present evidence on DaSpot, went through and picked over every tiny thing they did. Good post, but we wonder why it took them so long to present any of this reasoning.

Whoa, all of a sudden it's back to FD being scum on Day 3? Where did this come from and why have we still not gotten reasoning for it?

Finally Profane Confusion manages to coax some reasoning about FD, why did it take 2 1/2 days to get this from them?

Conclusions:

Protown CES generally leads games, and FES isn't doing that, so we're not sure why YosFlavouredCayke is so convinced that FES is town. Not a lot of evidence in favor of FES at this point. However, they aren't necessarily scum either, because there isn't strong evidence either way.

Everything from YosFlavouredCayke seems really uninspired this game. Not at all what we'd expect from them if they were town. A lot of their posts calling people scummy are rarely backed up with arguments or reasoning, and they have called people obvtown to the point of defending them vehemently without even presenting logic to back up their opinion.

Note that this ISO in no way reflects a town or scum read on FD or anyone else at this point. Those ISOs have not been performed in-depth yet. We don't question YosFlavouredCayke's opinion of FD outright, but rather the way in which they behaved regarding FD's wagon.

YosFlavouredCayke: Questionably Scummy

[Mastermate-approved post]

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

We do not believe yoscaykes claim.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos, have you ever been a JK before? If so, link to the game.

- Incog

I don't remember ever being a jailkeeper, offhand.

Of course, I did invent the role, years ago, and I've therefore thought about the strategic implications a lot.

So YFC thinks that a jailkeeper is better off trying to prevent a scum nk by targeting scum than by protecting. Thus, it can be assumed he must have had a scum read on us Day 1 since he targeted BW, our predecessor, N1. However, if you look at his voting patterns, YFC votes FD up until deadline is at hand, and then he switches to UB. He never votes for our slot until Day 2 - after he targeted us. Furthermore, if you go through his iso, he mentions us twice - once in ISO 17, where he accuses us of being lurkerscum and once in ISO 31, where he says we're mason-fishing and defends against arguments made by BW. That's it, over all of day 1. In the same ISO 17 where he says we're lurkerscum, he says that he has an outright scumread on FD. So why would town JK YFC choose to target us over FD in hopes of preventing a scum nk night 1?

Hmm? That's exactly why I targeted you, of course. I thought that part was obvious.

As Mastermate just said:

. I don't agree, I prefer defensive protection early game because it's so easy for scums to give their kills to their least suspected members to avoid RBs and Tracks

Scum are generally going to give the scum kill to a member of their team who has not been attacked recently. Fate came very close to being lynched on day 1; the scum weren't going to send him out to do a kill. So whenever you use a roleblocker type ability, if you can (and it's not always possible), you should target someone who's probably scum, but who hasn't been attacked, who isn't under major suspicion. Beaver fit the bill perfectly.

At the end of day 1, I thought there was a very high chance Beaver was scum, but I hadn't really attacked him in thread. No one had, really. That makes him the best possible roleblock choice; someone who seemed likely scum, but who the scum wouldn't have known was under suspicion at the time.

Last night, I couldn't come up with a target that good. There was really no one I suspected who hadn't spent a lot of time under attack; I actually talked about it with Cayke, and she didn't have any better ideas, either, so we just targeted spot, who at the time seemed so obviously scum that at least there was no risk of doing harm from blocking him. But night 1, you were by far the most logical target.

[Profane Confusion]

Yos, my question was why choose us - your lurkerscum read - over FD, your scummy mcscummerson read. How did you think scum was going to stop your roleblock?

[Profane Confusion]

-smarg

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos, my question was why choose us - your lurkerscum read - over FD, your scummy mcscummerson read. How did you think scum was going to stop your roleblock?

I just answered that. Scum can generally send anyone they want to do the kill, so they won't send out a member of their group who has a lot of pro-town people suspicious of them, because they're the most likely to get tracked or roleblocked. Ideally, they'll send out someone who hasn't been attacked at all.

So the job of the town roleblocker, or tracker, or jail keeper or whatever, is ideally to find a scum who hasn't been attacked in thread and block that guy.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I'm also rather confused about how Mastermate could think we didn't give logical arguments for why Ether was obviously town on day 1, or for why we didn't give logical arguments for why FD is scum. I mean, of course I'm very much a gut player, always have been, but I used a great deal of logic as well in both cases.

And this is just odd:

Comments like "Ether doesn't say she's town unless she's town" have no real meaning in a game of mafia.

There are no rules about what can and can't be a tell, matermate. If Cayke believed that Ether saying that is a town tell for her, and she's correct about that (and she probably is, IMHO), then of course she should say so, especially considering that multiple people were voting the obviously town Ether for terrible reasons at the time.

[Final Destination]

[AGM]

Cool claim, bro. Three things:

1) There was no town reason for stalling on that claim.
2) It's fake.
3) Die.

[Profane Confusion]

I don't remember ever being a jailkeeper, offhand.

Of course, I did invent the role, years ago, and I've therefore thought about the strategic implications a lot.

I've got really bad news for you then: I don't believe your claim. Not one bit.

The math you used in your 1218 is almost insulting; it's all too convenient that you'd "make" the two things (roleblocking and doctoring) completely equal to each other by using math that only works under ONE assumption:

That Night choices are made 100% randomly.

But since this is the game of Mafia and since I know you're a good player, I'm going to assume that choices in this game aren't made 100% randomly; they're made based off of things that go on in the thread.

Let me simplify this:

1)

You claimed to have had an almost 100% town read on Pathetric.

2)

Even if you WERE 100% right about your scum reads, you'd have a certain percentage chance of roleblocking the CORRECT scum on Night 1 which is dependent on however many scum are in this game (whatever that number is is irrelevant; it'd certainly be less than that 100% town read you had on Pathetric though).

Given that, it makes only LOGICAL sense that a pro-town Jailkeeper would absolutely 100% protect the town read they had on Night 1 since no scums were hit on Day 1 and that probability number is going to be greater than the probability of stopping a kill (almost 100% (assuming you were right about your town read which in this case you would have been) compared to a lot less than 100%). No questions asked.

Your argument is almost like saying the following: I create a role similar to a Jailkeeper. Instead of forcing you to choose a player outside of yourself to protect/roleblock though, I give you the option of JK-ing yourself (a person you know to be 100% town). You're trying to tell me that even given that situation, you'd choose to try to roleblock scum as opposed to protecting yourself especially on a Night 1 after no scum have been lynched?

I want you lynched now. We'll get your buddy Copper Tomorrow.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

P.S. Apologies if that came off rudely. I get really amped up after I finish a jog lol.

- Incog

[YosFlavouredCayke]

The math you used in your 1218 is almost insulting; it's all too convenient that you'd "make" the two things (roleblocking and doctoring) completely equal to each other by using math that only works under ONE assumption:
That Night choices are made 100% randomly.

Not at all. The math works just as well if you assume that I have about the same skill at figuring out who's going to make the kill as I do at figuring out who's likely to get nightkilled.

But since this is the game of Mafia and since I know you're a good player, I'm going to assume that choices in this game aren't made 100% randomly; they're made based off of things that go on in the thread.

Let me simplify this:

1)

You claimed to have had an almost 100% town read on Pathetric.

2)

Even if you WERE 100% right about your scum reads, you'd have a certain percentage chance of roleblocking the CORRECT scum on Night 1 which is dependent on however many scum are in this game (whatever that number is is irrelevant; it'd certainly be less than that 100% town read you had on Pathetric though).

So, if I have a 100% correct town read on someone, that means they're 100% going to be nightkilled? Of course not.

If I have a 100% town read on one player, they still aren't that likely to get nightkilled; it's much less likely then the chance a correct scum read of mine is going to make the nightkill.

Did you miss the part where I already explained why I didn't expect the scum to try to kill Ether?

Given that, it makes only LOGICAL sense that a pro-town Jailkeeper would absolutely 100% protect the town read they had on Night 1 since no scums were hit on Day 1 and that probability number is going to be greater than the probability of stopping a kill (almost 100% (assuming you were right about your town read which in this case you would have been) compared to a lot less than 100%). No questions asked.

No, that's stupid.

I've been a doctor several times in mafia games; newbie games, mostly. You know how often I've successfully stopped a nightkill as a doctor?

Zero times. It's never happened.

I had good town reads in some of those game, but that's not nearly enough to be a successful doctor. You have to both figure out who's the most likely scum target, and then figure out if the scum are going to WIFOM around the possibility of a doctor and kill someone else instead.

It's really damn rare for a doctor to actually stop the scum kill. It's one of the hardest things to do in mafia. Read through 10 newbie games at random, and see how many of them had a sucessful doc protection.

Not that sucessfully roleblocking a scum is much easier, of course, but your logic, which seems to be "if you had a town read on someone then there is a 100% chance that they are going to be killed" is just horrible.

And, of course, that's without the risk of roleblocking a town power role. For a jailkeeper, trying to play doctor is much riskier.

Your argument is almost like saying the following: I create a role similar to a Jailkeeper. Instead of forcing you to choose a player outside of yourself to protect/roleblock though, I give you the option of JK-ing yourself (a person you know to be 100% town). You're trying to tell me that even given that situation, you'd choose to try to roleblock scum as opposed to protecting yourself especially on a Night 1 after no scum have been lynched?

Depends on the situation. If I thought I was going to be killed, sure. Of course, that completely negates the main reason you don't go around jailkeeping random townies, which is that you'll probably end up screwing over a power role.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

yos... a jailkeeper is a more protective than aggressive... right?

i mean... how much info can you get as a jailkeep? none.

the people you've targeted were, at one time or another, on your suspect list... right?

why did you protect them? YES you can RB them. but your giving the people that YOU think that are scum protection.

... There is NO WAY IN HELL that a town JK would do that.

it's not only a fake claim but a scum claim at that.

this is why you are hanging today.

got it? good.

now...

LYNCH THIS BASTARD NOW

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

But since this is the game of Mafia and since I know you're a good player, I'm going to assume that choices in this game aren't made 100% randomly; they're made based off of things that go on in the thread.

Let me simplify this:

1)

You claimed to have had an almost 100% town read on Pathetric.

2)

Even if you WERE 100% right about your scum reads, you'd have a certain percentage chance of roleblocking the CORRECT scum on Night 1 which is dependent on however many scum are in this game (whatever that number is is irrelevant; it'd certainly be less than that 100% town read you had on Pathetric though).

So, if I have a 100% correct town read on someone, that means they're 100% going to be nightkilled? Of course not.

If I have a 100% town read on one player, they still aren't that likely to get nightkilled; it's much less likely then the chance a correct scum read of mine is going to make the nightkill.

Did you miss the part where I already explained why I didn't expect the scum to try to kill Ether?

Given that, it makes only LOGICAL sense that a pro-town Jailkeeper would absolutely 100% protect the town read they had on Night 1 since no scums were hit on Day 1 and that probability number is going to be greater than the probability of stopping a kill (almost 100% (assuming you were right about your town read which in this case you would have been) compared to a lot less than 100%). No questions asked.

No, that's stupid.

I've been a doctor several times in mafia games; newbie games, mostly. You know how often I've successfully stopped a nightkill as a doctor?

Zero times. It's never happened.

I had good town reads in some of those game, but that's not nearly enough to be a successful doctor. You have to both figure out who's the most likely scum target, and then figure out if the scum are going to WIFOM around the possibility of a doctor and kill someone else instead.

It's really damn rare for a doctor to actually stop the scum kill. It's one of the hardest things to do in mafia. Read through 10 newbie games at random, and see how many of them had a sucessful doc protection.

Not that sucessfully roleblocking a scum is much easier, of course, but your logic, which seems to be "if you had a town read on someone then there is a 100% chance that they are going to be killed" is just horrible.

And, of course, that's without the risk of roleblocking a town power role. For a jailkeeper, trying to play doctor is much riskier.

This is bar none the scummiest thing said all game.

WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD A JK PARTAKE IN A WIFOM BATTLE?

no... dude... no...

you've just blown your chance.

how in THE FUCK is it RISKY to use your JK as a doc?

PR OR NO IT KEEPS THE GUY THAT MAKES THE MOST SENSE IN PLAY.

you WANT that guy around. to HELP THE TOWN.

IT'S FREAKING PROTECTING 101!

the PROTECTION THE A JK PROVIDES IS EASILY MORE VALUABLE THAN THE RB FUNCTION OF ONE.

QED.

LYNCH IT WITH FIRE!

[YosFlavouredCayke]

why did you protect them? YES you can RB them. but your giving the people that YOU think that are scum protection.

Um...that dosn't make any sense. Protect them against what?

I mean, there's a small risk you might accidently protect a scum from being vig killed, but in a closed setup where there's no reason to think there's a vig, that's unlikely enough to not be worth worrying about.

Jailkeeper is basically a roleblocker. Yes, you can run it the other way and try to be a doctor instead, but you're less likely to stop a kill that way, and if you do that you'll probably end up blocking the wrong guy and screwing over the town.

I mean, if you really disagree with how I've used the jailkeeper role this game, feel free to discuss it in mafia discussion. From your posting so far, though, I'm pretty sure that if I'd gone the other way, you'd be like "WHY WOULD A TOWN JK ROLEBLOCK PEOPLE HE KNOWS ARE TOWN? LYNCH THE LYING SCUM RIGHT AWAY!" You just take whatever I do and invent some scum motivation for it, no matter how little sense this makes, and it's become unbelivably wearying.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

no...

you block people that are town. you DO have a one in 12 chance of a success the odds grow considerably when you don't random.org it.

you can think right?

you probably had 3 or 4 or 5 people on your town list D1?

you ARE a considerable player are you not?

so you'd have confidence in your town reads right?

so much so that you have a feeling that one of them MAY in fact DIE.

don't you want the biggest threat to scum to survive? guaranteed?

THEN WHATS THE RISK? YOU DYING?

what ever game you are playing. it's not town.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

(AGar)

Grab your ball sacks and lynch scum before they fakeclaim. I've done it many a time and it feels

so good.

No, that won't be happening. We wanted a claim, and we threatened to move without a claim in order to force a claim, not hammer away without care.

I think you're town, Balam, and I think I got as much information out of incog with this little game of brinksminship as I'm likely to, so if you still want me to claim, I will. I don't really think it'll accomplish much at this point, though.

if you're not claiming shut up and take some rope.

hey, there's this new game where the idea is to listen to what people say and try to figure out their alignment. It's called "mafia". You should try it some time, it's fun.

by and by. is this a rebuttal or a put down?

either way I am playing. don't insult me.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

no...

you block people that are town. you DO have a one in 12 chance of a success the odds grow considerably when you don't random.org it.

you can think right?

you probably had 3 or 4 or 5 people on your town list D1?

you ARE a considerable player are you not?

so you'd have confidence in your town reads right?

so much so that you have a feeling that one of them MAY in fact DIE.

don't you want the biggest threat to scum to survive? guaranteed?

THEN WHATS THE RISK? YOU DYING?

what ever game you are playing. it's not town.

The goal is to stop the scum from killing, period. It dosn't matter if you do that by roleblocking the killer, or by protecting the townie that the scum plan to kill. The result is the same

Yeah, I do wish I had protected Ether. If she was alive, this game would be going so much more smoothly right now. But in general, you are going to succeed in stopping kills more often by targeting the scum then by targeting the town.

I don't know why people keep acting like I'm going to be targeting people at random. Of course I'm not. But if my reads are perfect, which of course they aren't going to be but let's pretend, and I target a pro-town person, I'm still probably not going to target the same townie that the scum kill. If my reads are perfect, and I target a scum, I'm much more likely to target the right scum; 1/3 chance instead of 1/8 chance.

Besides; like I said, if I was going to guess which pro-town person the scum were going to kill, it wouldn't have been Ether. I thought the scum (IE: Beaver and Fate) were going to go back to trying to lynch Ether instead. They made a pretty good try at it day 1, and she led a mislynch at the end of day 1, so I would have thought they'd try to lynch her again rather then nightkill her. Obviously I was wrong.

hey, there's this new game where the idea is to listen to what people say and try to figure out their alignment. It's called "mafia". You should try it some time, it's fun.

by and by. is this a rebuttal or a put down?

either way I am playing. don't insult me.

My point was, if you are town, then it feels like you've turned your brain off and stopped thinking. You've decided Fate is town, you've decided I'm scum and FES is scum, and you don't care to hear any argument from anyone that doesn't agree with what you've already decided. You called balam scum for not quickhammering me, which is just completly bonkers. Anyone who disagrees with you must be scum; any facts that don't fit your tunnel you ignore. I've mostly stopped bothering responding to your posts, because it's become obvious that there's no point.

So, yeah, I don't think you're actually reading posts and trying to figure stuff out at this point. I don't think you've done that for days. You're not playing mafia, you're playing, I don't know, debate club or something. If you're not scum, and I have to consider the possibility here that you might not be, then you are tunneling so hardcore it might cost the town the game.

[Mastermate]

I'm also rather confused about how Mastermate could think we didn't give logical arguments for why Ether was obviously town on day 1, or for why we didn't give logical arguments for why FD is scum. I mean, of course I'm very much a gut player, always have been, but I used a great deal of logic as well in both cases.

I welcome you to quote your "logic" for all to see, because an ISO of your posts didn't reveal very much. You keep claiming that you have all these great reasons for pathetrick to be town and FD to be scum, but you weren't very forthcoming with actual arguments.

And this is just odd:

Comments like "Ether doesn't say she's town unless she's town" have no real meaning in a game of mafia.

There are no rules about what can and can't be a tell, matermate. If Cayke believed that Ether saying that is a town tell for her, and she's correct about that (and she probably is, IMHO), then of course she should say so, especially considering that multiple people were voting the obviously town Ether for terrible reasons at the time.

So you're saying that in every game that Ether does not just immediately come out and say she is protown, you will advocate her lynch Day 1? Because if that's not true, then your claim means absolutely

nothing

.

Pointing out people's terrible arguments against another player is different from declaring them protown. Heck, I even went so far as to point out a terrible argument against you, because it was a truly terrible reason to be voting you. That doesn't mean I think you are obvtown. If you're going to claim someone is obviously protown, you'd better have something to back that up. You spent way more of your time ranting about how obviously town pathetrick was than you did arguing against the terrible reasons people had for voting them. A protown person would be spending their time debunking bad arguments rather than faithfully repeating the same "obvtown" fluff comments over and over.

[Profane Confusion]

Yos, my argument isn't so much that you having a town read automatically means that person's going to get killed; it's that you seemed pretty positive that Pathetric was town and that you therefore should have had them on auto-protect for so long as they lived... or at least on Night 1 when your chances of roleblocking a scum were much much lower than your chances of correctly protecting a pro-town player.

(As an aside: if it was any other pro-town player that you had just a decent read on, I'd probably give you more leeway on this but this was Pathetric, a player who a you-town would be quite quite quite capable of accurately reading their alignment due to meta and all that jazz. To a hypo you-town, reading Pathetric as town would almost be as second nature as just reading a town role PM in the inbox.)

I saw the part where you explained why you thought Pathetric would be alive the next Day, yeah; quite frankly, I don't really buy it since the wagon on them couldn't have ever been really serious (I think it amounted to something dumb like "they LIED to the town for claiming to be a newb in their first post!". Beaver was clearly an idiot). The second part about them receiving heat for pushing a mislynch? Eh. Town push mislynches all the time and then die the same Night. Can't really see why you'd think differently there. Either way, I can't really see why you'd bank on something like that when you had that solid of a read on a pair of players who are as solid of players and HUGE NK magnets as the tandem of Patrick and Ether.

The point about being worried about blocking a potential town PR seems like you're presenting a false dilemma; even if you submit Jailkeeps on the targets you find to be scummiest, you still run the risk of blocking a potential pro-town player because you just might have been incorrect with your read. So no.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Mod:

Prod Copper. Thanks.

[Mastermate]

Note: The FD ISO is coming, but that's going to take more time, so we decided to knock out the Copper ISO we were planning to do anyway.

Copper ISO:

Copper's first post detailing their opinion of FD is very nice, I definitely like the point about them giving up their aggression somewhat being a town tell. However, it remains to be seen until we do our FD ISO whether or not they have actually toned themselves down.

Also like their analysis of our previous selves, the theory is sound and resonates strongly with us since we both know our own alignment and were not the ones to make those actions.

Good read on YosFlavouredCayke, very similar to ours.

Not particularly sure why they went with the Beaver Weasel vote, though.

Now you're willing to put FES at L-2 simply because they refused to unvote?

Still, seeing a lot of decent looking logic from Copper's early posts. Definitely one of the less random hydras.

Noting that they unvote FES right before the end of the day.

Not sure what to think of the Balam vote, since at least one of our heads initially read Balam as town. Final conclusion on Balam would take more reading, though.

Not much else going on after that.

Conclusion:

Copper has made only 3 posts in Day 3, definitely not a good sign with all the bandwagons that have been going around. I'd like to see them comment more on the high profile players, as I'm afraid that their vote on Balam is an attempt to seem like they are still actively hunting scum while avoiding getting mixed up in anything that could get the spotlight on themselves.

Copper: Neutral

[Mastermate]

Frogito Ergo Sum ISO

Putting FD in hammer range is pretty much what we expect from FES.

FES argues that FD is scum because they have not been aggressive, whereas Copper made the argument that FD toning it back intentionally was a town tell. I'd like to see these two argue their counterpoints.

Definitely not seeing what we expect from FES. As noted in our YosCayke ISO, our meta would have them leading the town more aggressively, but they seem content to sit back and respond to people instead.

Not sure why FES can't understand why YosCaykeScum would buddy up to pathetrick and then kill them off to gain points with the rest of the town for defending them. YosCaykeScumWithFrogitoErgoScum?

Interesting that FES doesn't want to compromise onto a lesser suspect and then does just that in their very next post, switching votes to Spot.

Conclusion:

The thing I'm having trouble with in this read is seeing a town-CES taking a backseat to Shanba in their hydra. They obviously have very different playstyles, but it feels like they have been pulling CES back somewhat this game. Definitely more advantageous for scum-FES than if they were town.

Frogito Ergo Neutral-leaning Scum

[Balam]

(AGar)

[AGM]

Cool claim, bro. Three things:

1) There was no town reason for stalling on that claim.
2) It's fake.
3) Die.

Lolno.

VOTE: Final Destination

With so much pushing against YFC, and no logic behind it, we're fairly confident that YFC is in fact town.

You might want to think about claiming FD. I'm sure there's someone here who will "grab their ball sacks and lynch scum before they fakeclaim," as you so kindly put it.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos, my argument isn't so much that you having a town read automatically means that person's going to get killed; it's that you seemed pretty positive that Pathetric was town and that you therefore should have had them on auto-protect for so long as they lived... or at least on Night 1 when your chances of roleblocking a scum were much much lower than your chances of correctly protecting a pro-town player.

Why do you keep saying that?

How are my "chances of roleblocking a scum night 1 much lower then my chance of correctly protecting a pro-town player"? It seems quite obvious to me that the opposite is true. Roleblocking a scum night 1 is far more likely to work then protecting one pro-town player at semi-random. Even though I was confident that Ether and FES were town, that dosn't mean I can guess who the scum are going to nightkill. Hell, they might have decided to nightkill me for all I knew.

Trying to guess who the scum are going to nightkill, in a situation without a role-confirmed pro-town person or a power claim or something, is such a shot in the dark. You still haven't explained how I was supposed to be "100% confident" that the scum were going to target either instead of one of the other 7 townies.

(As an aside: if it was any other pro-town player that you had just a decent read on, I'd probably give you more leeway on this but this was Pathetric, a player who a you-town would be quite quite quite capable of accurately reading their alignment due to meta and all that jazz. To a hypo you-town, reading Pathetric as town would almost be as second nature as just reading a town role PM in the inbox.)

Well, yes. Of course I can read Ether, and I did. The ease at which I can read Ether is one of the main reason your buddy Fate has given for attacking me since early on day 1.

I saw the part where you explained why you thought Pathetric would be alive the next Day, yeah; quite frankly, I don't really buy it since the wagon on them couldn't have ever been really serious (I think it amounted to something dumb like "they LIED to the town for claiming to be a newb in their first post!". Beaver was clearly an idiot).

Well, Beaver gave a crappy reason for voting for Ether, but then he left his vote on her for ages, from February 26th all the way up to March 9th. Wasn't like he wasn't around then, either; he made 6 posts on other subjects while keeping his vote on Ether. You don't do that if you're not "serious". At least, not if you're town.

Fate was also pretty clearly serious about his Ether vote. He didn't keep the vote on for that long, I think mostly because he got stiff resistance from me about the subject, but he spent 6 posts in a row attacking her before backing off (if you read him in ISO, it's his posts 7-13). He was pretty damn serious about his attack on her.

And all that was before she incorrectly pushed through the US wagon.

The point about being worried about blocking a potential town PR seems like you're presenting a false dilemma; even if you submit Jailkeeps on the targets you find to be scummiest, you still run the risk of blocking a potential pro-town player because you just might have been incorrect with your read. So no.

Wait, what? So, first, you're saying I should have protected Ether because I should have known she was town; now, you're saying that I don't have any ability at telling the difference between town and scum?

I was confident Ether was town, and if you target someone you are confident is town, you obviously are more likely to roleblock a town power role then if you target someone that looks scummy. Unless you're arguing that me trying to read someone's alignment on day 1 is no better then random.org, which is the exact opposite of what you've been arguing all along.

If one specific player is obviously town, and you jailkeep them, of course there is a higher risk that they're a pro-town power role then a player who isn't obvtown. If you do jailkeep a scum, then even if you don't stop the kill, at least you're not stopping a pro-town power role, by definition. So you're better off trying to target scum then town.

Anyway, I really hate how you've managed to sidetrack the entire discussion with this mostly useless mafia theory argument. I really think you're just trying to run the clock down to deadline at this point.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We consider a roleblocker to be more powerful than a doctor, so it makes sense to us that Yeastarian would play their role as a roleblocker. Furthermore, given the lack of displayed town power, a town jailkeeper makes more sense than a mafia RB (which he'd certainly be if he were fakeclaiming) here.

Protown CES generally leads games, and FES isn't doing that

What? You're supposed to be somewhat familiar with my playstyle and that most definitely isn't it.

Case against PC:
1) PC is wrong about too many things (i.e. us, YFC, FD). We're unfamiliar with smargaret, but Incog's supposed to be good at this.
2) Specifically, not calling FD on their bullshit. Even if you think FD is town, he's clearly yelling more than that he's engaging with the game. E.g. #1146.
3) PC seemed to be trying scoring points in our back-and-forth about the Gummybear hammer. He never really backed up his claim that Gummybear was acting town while at L-1 and he never ceded the hammer argument.