Open 302: JUNGLE REPUB nope game over! Party time!

[Wickedestjr]

2234 - Confirm

[Wickedestjr]

If you run across the situation where someone fake-claims Seer do

NOT

/b] counter-claim immediately unless you have a confirmed guilty read to go along with it or we are in a LYLO situation.

I think it would also be a good idea for the seer to counterclaim if it is the day before LyLo as well. Am I wrong?

[Wickedestjr]

@MagnaofIllusion - I think that any scenario in which it is possible for the following day to be LyLo can be considered the day before LyLo. It's not something we really need to worry about now, though. I'd prefer to worry about it later.

@neil1113 - First of all, there are three Mafia, so five scum in total. Secondly, we can't consider them as one group, because the scum outnumbering town isn't necessarily a LyLo situation (e.g. 3 Mafia, 2 Werewolves, 4 Town).

[Wickedestjr]

@neil1113 - The Mafia (Evil Sheep) and Werewolves are two separate scum factions that are against eachother as well as town. The Mafia (Evil Sheep) don't have a kill, but the Werewolves do.

Someone's eager to lay down a vote before the Mod officially starts the game ...

Your point?

[Wickedestjr]

I see no problem with voting now

VOTE: neil

first thing I'd do as mafia would be to get the knowledge of my own faction wrong

also, I remember you requesting in the open queue to be in a killing faction.

That's evidence for both mafioso and werewolf

and pretty good so far considering we haven't officially started yet

How so?

[Wickedestjr]

@MoI - And what was it?

So you think the best move for Neil (8 months on MS) in an Open game is to specifically pretend he doesn’t understand the roles as a Gambit. When the result is you immediately jumping on him that exact thing.

This is a good point.

@Twistedspoon - What gives you the impression that this is a scum gambit instead of a mistake due to inexperience?

I never said it would be the best thing to do, but it sure would be what I'd do

So, do you or do you not think that would've been the best thing to do? If not, then why would you have done it?

Also, you haven't answered my previous question. You said that him requesting to be in a killing faction in the queue was evidence that he was scum in this game. Why?

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Empking

Bandwagon gogogo...

@MoI - I assumed that was the point of the comment, but I asked in case you actually found Caboose suspicious and wanted to avoid telling us that. Do you suspect Twistedspoon at all?

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry for not posting yesterday. I didn't have much computer access, but I'm catching up now.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked: What do you think of neil's habit of writing statements where everything is implied rather than said and as such gives him plausible deniability?

Can you post examples of this, please? Once you have, I'll answer your question. If he's truly done this I haven't noticed it.

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, I'm caught up. I'll respond/ask questions to others and then post my thoughts...

We need more content from a few of the lurkers, getting a gut-scum read from Wicked, his posts seem to all be objective opinions on events rather than stating his actual thoughts.

Can you elaborate on this, please?

TwistedSpoons vote here screams over-eager opportunistic mafia.

I suspect Twistedspoon as well, but how was his vote over-eager and opportunistic?

@Empking - I don't think either of those quotes are examples of neil1113 trying to give himself plausible deniability.

---

Vote: Twistedspoon

I find him the most suspicious for three reasons:

1.) He expressed interest in a neil RVS bandwagon in the pre-game, but when the game began he random voted HezLucky instead.
2.) Posts 7 and 8 in his iso are both fluff and are good examples of IIoA.
3.) His last post has ignored the people voting him.

While I suspect Twistedspoon, at the same time, I think that zMuffinMan's vote for him looks very opportunistic. He doesn't give any reasons for the vote and also doesn't give any stance regarding Twistedspoon or his actions ("I think he's a bit scummy", "I'm pretty certain he's scum", "this seems odd", etc.). MuffinMan, why are you voting Twistedspoon? There's also this very scummy quote:

I didn't take notice of this irony before I went back through your ISO...

Scum feigning ignorance of his role?

I have two problems with this. First of all, this is IIoA. He points this out but doesn't give any opinion on it. Secondly, this is opportunistic, because he thinks it is possible that Twistedspoon could be scum feigning ignorance of his role, but made no mention of neil1113 despite there being more evidence of this exact same point against him.

I agree that neil1113 vs. Empking looks like an argument between two townies and I have pretty strong town reads of both of them. In addition, I think DeityKabuto and MagnaofIllusion are probably town. Finally, I've got my eye on HezLucky and Sloth in particular.

[Wickedestjr]

Would you mind explaining how that first example was not him blatantly implying something in order to be able to use his pet phrase "I didn't say that"?

This is how I interprated it:

Empking: What allignment is so afraid of 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?

Neil1113: The largest wagon? 2 votes? =

You consider two votes to be a large bandwagon?

My interpratation: I don't think he was questioning your statement that you were the largest bandwagon, but questioning why you think he would feel the need to join the largest bandwagon when it was only two votes in this case.

Empking: You don't think it was the largest wagon.

My interpratation: You thought he was denying that you were the largest bandwagon, when, in actuality, he was simply saying that he didn't think your bandwagon was as large as he thought you were making it out to be.

Neil1113: I didn't say that.

My interpratation: He didn't say that, it was just how you interprated it.

I'm pretty sure that's the misunderstanding.

Can you also give a town motivation for him refusing to answer my question while trying to pretend as if he had?

Which question are you talking about?

@HezLucky – so nothing to say at all regarding the entire pages of Empking versus Neil posting?

Any particular reason why you didn't ask Sloth or zMuffinMan this question?

Also, Magna, what do you think of cjdrum?

So let me get your logic straight here …

1. Twisted in pre-game expressed a desire to RVS neil for his fake-post about not understanding certain Mafia aspects.
2. You and I explained to him that was a bad tactic for scum to take pre-game

3. Twisted eventually grudgingly agrees.

4. Twisted votes someone else RVS when the game opens.
5. You vote him for it.

That’s what you are basing your point 1 on?

Not quite. I don't think #3 actually happened. This was Twistedspoon's last post before the game actually began:

1) nothing, how could it?

There's no way to tell for certain that it's a gambit. However it makes a very respectable RVS wagon

2) I'm not sure If it'd be the best thing. Magna seems to think not. I'd have done it to distance myself from the scum faction were I scum
3) I've reconsidered and I think it's shoddy evidence now that I remember random.org has been used to generate the roles. I doubt our mod would take role requests, especially ones that were posted in the open queue for all to see :p

And the only post after this, but before his random vote was this:

1) i don't know neil's meta
2) well i wasn't going to lynch him based on that fact, only an RVS wagon. But hey, feel free to suspect me should I try that tactic. I can't help feeling that I'd have dug my own grave though

He doesn't say in either of these posts that he isn't going to vote Neil for an RVS wagon. He also doesn't give any reason for changing his mind when he random votes either.

Also Wicked – why do think of Empking’s vote for Neil given that it ostensibly had the same reason as Twisted’s early suspicion (see post 28 for context)?

I don't think Empking ever gave the reason for his original vote. If he did, can you quote it please? If that was why he voted Neil, I don't find it suspicious.

Empking, have you ever seen scum blatantly defend their buddy? If so, can you post a link, please?

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, what about our fight makes you think we're both townies? I ask because we both have very different views of each other, and apparently I'm not the only one who thinks that about Emp, so how can you really see Emp's responses and consider him to be town? That's the question I'm really asking

I think you're town because of your reaction to Empking's accusations directed at you. I also get the impression that you genuinely suspect Empking. For the same reason, I think Empking is town. I get the impression that he actually thinks you are scum. Also, I have a lot of trouble seeing him attract attention to himself this early in the game if he's scum. He could have easily not said that he suspected you and avoided getting into that argument if he was scum that wanted to fly under the radar.

I agree that some of Empking's posts seem illogical, but that doesn't necessarily indicate that he is scum. Several times I've encountered players who have pushed bad arguments against me and most of the time they've ended up flipping town. I don't find it very suspicious.

[Wickedestjr]

You seem to be producing the word "large" out of nowhere because nobody ever mentioned how absolutely large it was. To quote Neil "The largest wagon?" (bold mine)

When you said this:

What allignment is so afraid of 1 (one) vote that

they wagon the largest wagon

and try and discredit the person voting them?

You accused him of wagoning the largest wagon (the bolded portion). Neil defended against the wagoning accusation by saying that he didn't think the bandwagon on you was that large. He said:

The largest wagon? 2 votes?

He never says in this quote that he didn't think your bandwagon was the largest. What he meant was that he didn't think two votes made it a large bandwagon and that he didn't feel his vote for you was truly opportunistic, because your bandwagon wasn't large in the first place. Get it now?

The question was about why he said the "I'm going to regret this" comment. He refused to answer that and instead answered the unasked, easier and utterly unrelated question of why he thought he was going to regret it.

He didn't avoid answering your question, he just didn't give you the answer you wanted and I think he misinterprated the question because it could have easily been interprated in two different ways. Did you mean to ask "Why did you feel the need to say that you are going to regret this?". Because I think he interprated the question as "Why do you think you are going to regret this?".

Also, can you find any games in which the scum defended eachother blatantly in the first few pages of a game?

[Wickedestjr]

Give me an hour.

Is it not something that happens often?

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: I'm going to have limited access the next three days. I should be able to post a little bit during that time, but I'm very busy right now and I'm likely to fall behind.

[Wickedestjr]

Is there anything illogical about being suspicious of somebody engaging in extreme trickery so they can avoid having to answer an awkward question?

In this case, yes: I don't think Neil deliberately avoided your question, but I do think you were illogical to assume that he did rather than clarify the question.

Yes, because I need more information directly from Hez to help form a read on his alignment. I don’t at this point feel the need to get that same bit of information from the others.

Why Hez in particular?

The question to you – you agree that suspecting Neil on that basis was not good as it was a bad scum-tell. Or at least I thought you did. We tell Twisted this. When the game starts he doesn’t RVS Neil on that basis. You find that scummy?

Yes. While we may have convinced Twistedspoon that it was a null tell, I still thought that he was going to vote Neil for an RVS bandwagon, and was surprised when he didn't. Empking had voted Neil at the time of his RVS vote, so it wasn't as if there wasn't interest in a bandwagon on Neil. Also, even if we had convinced him not to vote Neil, the vote for HezLucky was still suspicious because we didn't convince him that a

bandwagon

was a bad idea. So, if he was interested in an RVS bandwagon, why didn't he vote for Empking, who, at the time, had three votes already?

@Wicked – What do you think of CJ?

Neutral, leaning newbscum. I don't have a very strong read though. Also, what do you think of zMuffinMan and the points I brought up?

I'm still behind, but found time to post this.

[Wickedestjr]

Everybody: I want you to look at the second quote in MOI's post and then look at my actual post. He took at the quote I was responding to in order to change my point completely.

I'm not seeing this.

Wicked; MOI called my question leading, loaded and incomprehensibly worded. When asked why it was those things he refused to answer. Why do you think that is?

Tbh, I can see why he didn't respond. I think your questions were loaded and

were

pretty much fluff.

If it was the second why would I bold and enlarge the word "say"?

I'm

not completely sure why you bolded and enlarged the word "say". What

was

that even supposed to indicate?

Scum getting attacked early doesn't happen early. Two men scum teams don't happen that often. I read very slowly. But this was thethird game I looked at and Hoopla in this game defended Haylen from a random vote.

1. Hoopla wasn't defending Haylen, but simply questioning the vote for her.
2. The vote for Haylen was

random

.
3. This game happened over a year ago. I find it hard to believe that it was the third game you checked. How did you find that game? What were the other two games you looked at? Also, please tell me, why did you chose this game in particular to look at? Has a scum never defended their buddy blatantly from a serious accusation early in any of

your

previous games?

Any examples of games where a scum has blatantly defended their buddy from a serious accusation early in the game?

[Wickedestjr]

MoI seems more likely to be town after that exchange between him and Empking, but there's one thing I'm curious about:

I'm done as I think it is pretty clear that you are

scum who overreacted to early pressure and have continued to dig your hole deeper and deeper

. I've let you suck me in again.

VIs drive me nuts

.

??? It seems odd that you would say he is pretty clearly scum, but at the same time a VI. What makes you think that Empking is a VI in this game?

Would you mind explaining how that first example was not him blatantly implying something in order to be able to use his pet phrase "I didn't say that"?

This is how I interprated it:

Empking: What allignment is so afraid of 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?

Neil1113: The largest wagon? 2 votes? =

You consider two votes to be a large bandwagon?

My interpratation: I don't think he was questioning your statement that you were the largest bandwagon, but questioning why you think he would feel the need to join the largest bandwagon when it was only two votes in this case.

You mean all that was

implied

. Which ultimatyely was my point in the start.

No, it wasn't. Your point was that he implied a thought without actually saying it and then later denied that he had had that thought. I believe that he was telling the truth when he denied implying that thought. I also think this is because we interprated his post differently. But, even if he had, this isn't scummy anyway. What motivation does he even have to say your bandwagon wasn't the largest and then say he never said that, when it would be so easy to show that he is lying? Why would he say that your bandwagon wasn't the largest in the first place, when it was very easy to prove that it was in fact the largest?

He's been arguing like nothing else and it's like he wants to be killed. Town doesn't want to be killed. Scum don't want to be killed, but can sacrifice one of their two (or... three?)

to get what they want

.

What does he want to get in this case?

More suspicious posting from zMuffinMan in post 184:

MoI is pretty clearly winning this argument against Empking. I'm really not convinced that MoI is right, but I am convinced that MoI is a lot better at arguing.

Filler, fluff, no stance, IIoA, and no useful point is actually made.

It continues with:

Granted, the point about it being the "third" game he looked at is irrelevant and I don't know why MoI keeps pushing it, you ignored the main point... The game you looked at was one in which scum had vested interest in keeping their partner alive because they died with their partner... It's a different situation. You can't just say it's the same because it's not ideal for a werewolf to die on D1... Or, well, you can, but it's a pretty poor argument.

This basically rephrases what has already been said and you don't actually contribute your read of Empking nor do you contribute anything new... in fact, at the time of this post we are 8 pages into the game and I still have no idea what you think of Empking.

Does it bother anybody that zMuffinMan still hasn't given his opinion of Empking or neil?

Because it doesn't look like he has.

I found it ironic that TS was criticising neil for doing it while it appears he was doing it himself. I regarded it as a null tell, but TS himself didn't, which is why I found it interesting, but that in and of itself is not why I'm voting for TS. I dislike his early play, trying to put pressure on someone for a poor reason, and I dislike that since then he has just been sitting back and not posting anything relevant.

Oops, I misread the original comment. Sorry.

I'm still catching up...

[Wickedestjr]

- I am familiar with Empking's style. I will not oppose pressure on Empking in future games because this
is far more activity than I am used to seeing out of him. So good work, everyone. (Although I am in the
"Empking is not a good day one policy lynch" meta,

though I will happily subscribe to the "Empking is a
good day one policy pressure" meta

)

...

Unvote, Vote: Empking

I'm not sure I understood this correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong. Are you saying that this is a pressure vote and you don't want to lynch Empking today?

Is this a joke? What do you call bolding and enlarging the crucial word if not clarifying the question? You have to remember, I didn't just decide that neil was dodging the question I gave him the benefit of the doubt before it was clear that there was no other explaination than neil being scum.

Any why has neil yet to answer the question? Is it still unclear?

1: Like I said, I can see how bolding and enlarging the word 'say' could have been unclear. Wouldn't it have been easy to just ask 'I don't want to know what you meant when you said that, but why you said it in the first place.' That would've ended the confusion and made it more likely that you would have received an answer.

2: I don't know why neil hasn't answered your question. It shouldn't be unclear if he has read the whole thread, but I get the impression he is simply ignoring you due to annoyance.

[Wickedestjr]

He jumped and voted Neil before the game had even started, what way isn't that over-eager?

Okay, then how was his over-eagerness scummy in this case? I also suspect Twistedspoon, but don't understand how over-eagerness in the pre-game is suspicious. How was his vote opportunistic?

Also, my gut scumread on you was becuase your ISO posts #1-6 all resemble coaching rather than actually scum-hunting.

Elaborate, please. Can you quote some examples?

I'd like for you to go into your town-read on MoI for me.

He's active and doesn't seem to care about what people think of him. He's also getting into arguments with people rather than sitting back and coasting. Aside from one comment he made which seemed off, I get the impression that he actually suspects Empking to be scum (this isn't a very strong point in his favor, but it does make him

slightly

more likely to be town imo).

You're not seeing how he changed the quote or you're not seeing how taking away the quote changed what the word "it" referred to?

I'm not seeing how MOI taking the quote out changed your point.

What was loaded about them and what was flufff about them?

MOI: Your question was X.
Me; Why was it X?

A loaded question is a question that makes a premise which hasn't been established. For example:

Wicked: What do you think of neil's habit of writing statements where everything is implied rather than said and as such gives him plausible deniability?

You asked me what I thought of neil trying to give himself plausible deniability, when I didn't even agree that he was actually doing such. It's a question that I wasn't able to answer, because I didn't agree with the premise it makes. What was I supposed to say? "Yeah, that's suspicious." "No, that's pro-town." I disagreed that he had done what you were accusing him of, so I wasn't able to answer the question. You asked several other questions like this, which I think were useless, and, as a result, fluff.

That the important thing was why he

said

something rather than why he thought something. (Which was the unrelated question he was answering.)

I still think it was unclear and I don't want to argue with you over this any more. You could have easily said "I want to know why you said the comment, not what you meant by it." Bolding the word 'said' didn't really make it much clearer.

Why did Hoopla do that? To find out the voter's alignment?

Well, she was scum, so she was obviously pretending to be trying to figure out the voter's allignment. She also could've been pretending to try to get the game out of RVS.

Your point?

My point is that the vote was random, so it was obvious that Hoopla wasn't defending Haylen.

I want you to check three games for whether there was defending day one. Tell me how long it takes.

I refuse to do this. I've been trying to get the point across that blatantly defending day 1 is very rare. If it takes me a long time to find anything, that will just prove my point.

Sorry I haven't been very active lately. I've had a lot of work to do the past few days. Hopefully I'll be able to catch up some more after dinner.

[Wickedestjr]

This is complete scummy bull.

You

were saying that I checked 100s of games in 10 minutes and that I was lying about checking only three.

Umm... I think you are confusing me with MoI.

[Wickedestjr]

By searching "lover*" in the Completed Open Game section.

Lover games aren't really a good comparison to this game. Why not check the Jungle Republics, considering they have the same amount of scum as this game and players are just as likely to defend each other?

Do you remember the intimate details of the games you've played?

I know I would have remembered scum blantantly defending each other very early in the game, as it would be something that would have surprised me after I saw the game's end result.

Why does this matter?

...because that is what you are saying is happening in this game. Are you really asking this question? My goodness.

Oy yeah: Wicked I've just realized that you asking for an example of a defence of a serious point during a period of time where its unlikely to have serious points.

Wat. I have no clue what you are saying.

I missed this:

I also want to ISO Deity, except his only posts are concerning Emp. I don't think he warrants much of a ISO, or a concern... not saying he reads town for me though. I can definitely see him being scum.

I agree with what Regfan had to say regarding this. It looks really bad. His response doesn't make any sense to me either.

[Wickedestjr]

Ugh. Not the reaction I was expecting at all, I thought you would attempt to deny the existance of such a scum-tell. I'm going to move my vote back for now, Twisted is still refraining from posting anything ressembling content.

Unvote: Neil113

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does it really make a difference who Neil was talking about in the post that you voted him for? Does that even change your point against him?

[Wickedestjr]

zMuffinMan, my opinion on Empking is leaning town, I've spectated a few of his games and he is exceedingly more outgoing as town, with that said

I also believe MoI is town

thus my frustration at Empkings inability to realize the case he has against MoI is incredibly weak.

Why did you want to know why I thought MOI was town?

Wicked – First vote was Empking wanting to ‘bandwagon’.

[1: He immediately jumps off the wagon the second Empking starts posting his special brand of insanity]

and

[2: votes Twisted for what I find suspect reasons.

[3: He then continues to spar with Empking but makes no move towards pressuring him via vote.]

My guts says Empking partner.

[4: Has experience with the Set-up and distancing from Partners (Actor Theme Mafia).]

1:

Seriously? I voted Empking for an RVS bandwagon. I switched my vote not immediately after, but three pages later. At the time of my TS vote, plenty of serious posting had already occurred and I had no reason to keep a random vote on Empking.

2:

From memory, you only expressed concern over one of my reasons for voting TS. I've elaborated on this reason and I still don't think you've responded (if you have, I missed it).

3:

I've said I believe Empking is town.

4:

If I was truly interested in distancing from Empking, I would have, y'know, expressed suspicion of him. There's one thing I find suspicious about him (his insistence that you were scum blatantly defending your scumbuddy early in the game), but overall I have a pretty strong town read.

There were two things I argued with Empking about:
1. Whether or not neil was trying to give himself plausible deniability: This argument consisted of no accusations towards Empking. I was simply trying to explain my point of view to him, because

he

asked

me

for it.
2. His insistence that you were scum blatantly defending your scumbuddy early in the game: this argument

was

because I found Empking's opinion strange/suspicious, however, that alone wasn't enough for me to think he was scum. My overall read was town, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to question him on something that seems suspicious.

2 Scum suspects? I honestly don't know. Pretty much everyone has had a run-in with Empking, so I'd say (currently) the people who haven't, or haven't very much are probably scum-worthy.
2 Town choices? The people who have been targeted by Empking the most. They're only kind of high in Towniness, because one may be Mafia while the other is a Werewolf.

It looks suspicious how he avoids giving names.

To win? He wants to have his faction win. If he dies and the others in his faction are "cleared" from his death, he's pretty much won (kind of).

How would his death clear the others in his faction?

[Wickedestjr]

There's 11 people other than myself in the game, I'm not sure why you're so concerned that I haven't given my opinion on Empking or neil when I don't think I've really given my opinion on anyone apart from TS at this point.

Why are you so interested in neil and Empking? Are you asking me to give you my reads here, or are you just slinging mud at me? Do you think I'm scummy?

Yes, I think you are scummy. It is suspicious how you'd only given your read on TS, but especially suspicious that you didn't give your reads on Empking or neil. At the time of your post where you voted TS, Empking and neil had made most of the posts in the thread arguing with eachother. To ignore them seems odd. Almost like you want to avoid talking about one of them.

Wicked: The first question is hardly a serious question.

What is this directed at?

I don’t see your confusion.

The VI label has nothing to do with alignment. You don’t have to be Town to be over-all incompetent.

You acknowledge that he is a VI, but you, at the same time, seem to be pretty confident that his actions are scummy rather than VIish.

Hm, my vote's on someone who's

obviously not scum

.

Let's fix that.

UNVOTE:

This seems like an unusually big change. IGMEO: Caboose.

Twistedspoon: Why are you ignoring the points I've brought up against you?

[Wickedestjr]

My response doesn't make sense? What do you not understand?

Well you were talking about a different player which I didn't understand until you clarified it later. But even once I understood that, your explanation still didn't make sense. Not because it was necessarily illogical, but simply because I didn't understand what you were trying to say or if it was even relevant to the point against you. Could you explain it again in a bit more detail?

Do you believe that at least 4 of the 5 players on that wagon are Scum?

No. I think there are two/three scum on it. Probably two.

Furthermore do you think it likely that a significant portion of the scum would pile together on one wagon of a Townie in getting him to L-2?

Not necessarily.

If Empking is scum then the stalling of his wagon at L-2 makes more logical sense. The number of players who actively would want to hang him immediately drops from 5 to at most 3 (and likely 2 based on my thoughts). Additionally he has either 1 or 2 other players who have a vested interest in not voting him.

This makes the reason that his wagon has stalled out much more understandable, IMO.

I disagree with this.

MOI, who is scum if Empking isn't?

Wicked – Look at his ISO. It is absolutely filled with point after point where he is arguing with Empking. It’s the dominant part of his ISO.

[1: Yet he shows absolutely no movement to actually consider voting him.]

[2: In fact he ‘RVS wagonned’ Emp but was very quick to jump off when Empking started to get heat.]

1:

This is because I thought he was town. I was arguing with him, but never did I say I thought he was scum. I've explained why I argued with him and what we argued over.

2:

Really? The key phrase is "RVS bandwagon". We were already out of RVS by the time I switched my vote. It was in no way quickly after Empking started to get heat. It was three pages after the argument between him and neil began. I believed him to be town and suspected another player more than him. Why in the world would I keep my vote on him? When

should

I be able to switch my vote?

Does anybody claim to think that I'm a Wolf?

If you're scum I don't see why you couldn't be a werewolf.

[Wickedestjr]

The thinking is as such on his claim -

He is either the real Seer or fake-claiming scum.

If he is the real Seer the Werewolves can't risk him getting a guilty scan off and kill him at Night.

If he is a fake-claiming Evil Sheep the Werewolves can't really risk the chance he is the real Seer when the odds of them randomly hitting the real Seer at 1/9 (remaining players not Empking or Wolves).

If he is a fake-claiming Werewolf he lives through the Night and must be lynched Tommorow.

NO NO NO!!! This is a terrible terrible plan.

Assume for a moment that Empking

is

the seer. Furthermore, consider a possibility were the werewolves are confident that they won't be investigated. If we plan ahead of time to lynch him (if he's alive) tomorrow because he wasn't killed,

why

would the werewolves kill him? I wouldn't kill somebody that I knew would get lynched the following day. You may think it seems unlikely, but in my very first game, a newbie game, a mafia goon lost his buddy day 1 and there was a claimed cop. The mafia goon didn't ever kill the cop and instead the cop was lynched day 3.

I don't care if Empking lives to day 4. Him not dying isn't strong enough evidence to lynch him. We have much stronger evidence: a counterclaim. I'm not asking for a counterclaim now, but we have to assume that he is a seer for now. He's the only seer we have and as long as he's alive, he's helping us.

My plan: We never lynch him until a player counterclaims him (once we have agreed that it is necessary for the real seer to counterclaim if Empking is lying). This does no harm. There

are

other scum. The idea of lynching him tomorrow simply because he hasn't died is really bad.

IGMEO: MoI

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked: Why do you think I was L-2 for an entire week?

I don't know. I don't think it has anything to do with the allignments of the players on and off the bandwagon. It could be happening for several different non-allignment related reasons:

1. Many players are inactive and the game is moving slowly.
2. Everybody on the bandwagon believes he is scum and doesn't want to move their vote while nobody off the bandwagon wants to join the bandwagon.

[Wickedestjr]

Neil's vote for HezLucky looks bad.

Wicked you seem to have missed my question, so I quoted it for you to respond to. Now my 2nd time asking. I do hope you wouldn't make me have to keep repeating myself?

I was still catching up at the time you asked the question. Sorry.

If we assume that more argue-with-Empking people are not in his faction, then him being massive argue wall would "clear" his scumbuddy/ies (if they were arguing), even if he were to be lynched. Then they'd both/all win. I don't get why you're drawing on this.

So you think there was a scumbuddy or two attacking him?

derp a derp derp. The reason my wagon didn't get any bigger is because those with the ability to make it happen weren't so inclined? Gosh. Now here's the thing,

unless my wagon was already mostly red the scum would be so inclined to put me at L-1

. But that didn't happen. Now if Y is required for X not to happen and X did not happen then Y is true!

I don't think the bolded is necessarily true.

And I am finally caught up! Took me a while. Hopefully I still have time to post some more actual thoughts before I go to sleep.

[Wickedestjr]

Ah, that would explain why you didn't give your read on them after it, either. Slip?

Are you saying that you had a read on them after that, and just neglected to mention it? Were you trying to avoid talking about one of them?

What? Learn to read. I

did

give my read of them in this post:

I agree that neil1113 vs. Empking looks like an argument between two townies and I have pretty strong town reads of both of them.

It's a bit different to the situation you're talking about in your first game, Wicked. I'm guessing you played a setup where you didn't necessarily know there was a cop in the game - we know there's one in this game. If the werewolves are ballsy enough to keep Empking alive (assuming he is the seer), and he is too incompetent to find a werewolf by say, D3 or D4, we should really consider policy lynching. It's something like 40% he'd find a werewolf by D3 and 60% by D4 (assuming we don't lynch one before then).

Still, I agree lynching him D2 might be a bit early considering the possibility werewolves will gamble tonight. Deal with that when we get there.

Even if Empking continuously investigates non-werewolves, I don't think we should lynch him if he survives to day 3 or day 4. If we reach a point where we want the real seer to claim if Empking is lying, that will prove whether or not Empking is town or scum. Lynching him simply because he is investigating townies and is still alive by day 4 is

not

strong enough evidence.

[Wickedestjr]

The two people I would be happy with lynching today are Twistedspoon and neil1113.

neil1113:

Originally, I believed that neil1113 was town because he was active and didn't seem to care what others thought about him. But after I gave my town read of him and after the exchange between him and Empking ended, he seemed to fly under the radar, wasn't as active as before, and seemed to go unnoticed which really bothers me. It now looks like neil1113 only argued with Empking originally because Empking was attacking him. Later, he votes HezLucky. I like the vote choice, but find the reasoning very suspicious. The reasoning he gives is this:

I don't like the WIFOM scenario HezLucky created with his unvote, and I've understood that HezLucky has seem to had little to no pressure this day, skating by with a "get out of jail free" pass and

nobody's

really giving him any pressure.

So, the reasoning boils down to:
1. HezLucky's unvote created a WIFOM scenario. I really don't like this reason. First of all, there isn't any WIFOM that I can see. Secondly, HezLucky was unvoting Empking, the claimed seer. Why would a player continue trying to get the seer lynched or why wouldn't they switch their vote? Finally, this reason is weak even if it was correct, because scum would have no motivation to do what neil is accusing him of doing with this point.
2. He wants to pressure HezLucky. Firstly, a pressure vote isn't very effective when you say it is a pressure vote. This just looks like scum giving themselves room to backpedal so they can later say "But it was just a pressure vote" when attacked for it. Secondly, the key word is "nobody's" (I've underlined it). With such a close deadline, it doesn't make any sense for neil to be voting HezLucky considering he doesn't have anybody else voting him.

To be fair, I also suspect HezLucky, but the reasoning neil1113 gave looks really weak and it looks like neil1113 is bussing. If neil1113 dies and flips scum, I'll definitely be taking a closer look at HezLucky.

I also don't like the quote from him that Regfan pointed out where it looks like he is trying to appear like he's scumhunting.

Twistedspoon:

I still like the points I brought up earlier against him, but what's even more suspicious is how Twistedspoon:
1. Ignores the points against him. If his actions are truly town motivated then he shouldn't have trouble explaining why. The fact that he doesn't defend against the accusations directed at him forces me to believe that he can't defend against them.
2. Has made no effort to scumhunt. His first serious vote was only FOUR pages ago. Meaning he didn't seriously vote somebody until page ELEVEN. And even this vote is terrible. He

still

hasn't justified it. It is pretty obviously a bandwagon vote. Otherwise, he would've given some reasons for it.
3. Has been lurking.

Even if he's town, he's doing nothing to indicate such and he's certainly not helping us at all, so he looks like a great day 1 lynch.


And, since several people seem to suspect him, I'll give my thoughts on:

DeityKabuto:

I think DeityKabuto is town. This is mostly a strong gut read, but I also think the bandwagon on him is scum motivated. This is because, not only do I suspect both players on his bandwagon, but I haven't ever seen any good points against him. It feels like he is just a really easy target.

With all that said, I am going to keep my vote on Twistedspoon. However, if not enough people are interested in voting him and more people are interested in voting neil, then I will happily switch my vote there instead.

[Wickedestjr]

What about their argument made you think it's TvT?

I've already explained this:

Wicked, what about our fight makes you think we're both townies? I ask because we both have very different views of each other, and apparently I'm not the only one who thinks that about Emp, so how can you really see Emp's responses and consider him to be town? That's the question I'm really asking

I think you're town because of your reaction to Empking's accusations directed at you. I also get the impression that you genuinely suspect Empking. For the same reason, I think Empking is town. I get the impression that he actually thinks you are scum. Also, I have a lot of trouble seeing him attract attention to himself this early in the game if he's scum. He could have easily not said that he suspected you and avoided getting into that argument if he was scum that wanted to fly under the radar.

I agree that some of Empking's posts seem illogical, but that doesn't necessarily indicate that he is scum. Several times I've encountered players who have pushed bad arguments against me and most of the time they've ended up flipping town. I don't find it very suspicious.

If you think it's TvT, then where do I fit in?

What do you mean? I would have wanted you to comment on them regardless of my reads on them.

And why didn't you bring

this

up at the time if you had a problem with me being null on it?

What are you talking about when you say 'this'?

Lynching neil increases the odds of us finding a Wolf massively.

I don't see any reason to believe neil is a werewolf as opposed to mafia. Why exactly do you believe he is? What do you think of my points against Twistedspoon?

@zMuffinMan - Since you're online, what do you think of my points against neil and Twistedspoon?

[Wickedestjr]

neil is scum. MOI is scum with neil (he opaquely and subtly defended him on the first page of the game starting. They are sumbuddies together) . DK is the scum that isn't with neil and MOI (I highly doubt my wagon was all Mafia and DK has 0 interest in scumhunting) . If neil is a wolf then so is MOI. If neil is mafia then DK is a wolf.

So... why do you think neil is a werewolf as opposed to mafia? You still haven't answered my question.

Your points are essentially a more town-looking DK.

No, they aren't. My points:

I still like the points I brought up earlier against him, but what's even more suspicious is how Twistedspoon:
1. Ignores the points against him. If his actions are truly town motivated then he shouldn't have trouble explaining why. The fact that he doesn't defend against the accusations directed at him forces me to believe that he can't defend against them.
2. Has made no effort to scumhunt. His first serious vote was only FOUR pages ago. Meaning he didn't seriously vote somebody until page ELEVEN. And even this vote is terrible. He still hasn't justified it. It is pretty obviously a bandwagon vote. Otherwise, he would've given some reasons for it.
3. Has been lurking.

From memory, none of the points I brought up against TS earlier can be applied to DK.
1. I think DK has acknowledged/made some effort to defend against the accusations.
2. DK has at least given reasons for voting you. It doesn't matter if they're accurate or not, I can't apply this point to him.
3. DK is pretty active compared to TS.

When you say TS is a more town-looking DK, does that mean you think TS is less suspicious or that you have reason to believe TS is town?

[Wickedestjr]

Also, Twistedspoon is online right now. I want to see some scumhunting now.

[Wickedestjr]

Your points are essentially a more town-looking DK.

So.. do you suspect TS at all?

[Wickedestjr]

FoS: Sloth

I already suspected him before, but then noticed this:

I feel like carrying out the lynch on Empking is still the best move. If he's not lynched today,

I doubt that he'd live through the night

with no kind of doc or JK in this setup.

Which assumes that Empking isn't a Werewolf. But then he asks Empking this question:

Why can't you be a wolf again?

Possible scum slip. What do you guys think?

[Wickedestjr]

Is he probably town? Almost certainally.

Why?

[Wickedestjr]

Re: your explanation about it being TvT - right, but in a game with 2 scum teams, why do you think them "genuinely" hunting scum is a town tell? I could understand you thinking they're not scum of the same faction, but how did you come to the conclusion that they're both town when both factions should have an interest in hunting scum and both factions could theoretically make it seem genuine?

The main reason I believed they were both town is because I had trouble seeing them attract so much attention to themselves as scum and I originally thought their reactions to the other's accusations seemed townish. Genuinely believing in their accusations isn't enough to make me believe they were each town alone, but it made me feel

slightly

better about them each. That's the only reason why I mentioned that point. Why are you ignoring the other reasons I gave?

I assumed you thought I had some reason for not wanting to comment on them. If you think they're both townies, what sort of scummy reason would I have for not wanting to comment?

Not taking a stance or ignoring players could be for several different reasons. Two of these reasons include:
1. You're scum that simply doesn't want to take stances.
2. You are connected to one of the players you aren't giving a stance on.
At the time I originally cast suspicion on you, I believed Empking and neil were both town, so I thought #1 could be the reason. However, later, neil started looking suspicious, so I reconsidered #2.

In the first place, I'm not really sure where you're going with me not commenting = scummy.

[1: I didn't have a read on them based on that argument (and I explained why)]

,

[2: nor was I the only one who didn't give a read on them.]

1:

Yes, but you didn't explain why you didn't have a read until I questioned you for not taking a stance.

2:

I consider null to be a read.

Me not having a read on Empking/neil based on their argument. I'm interested in why you waited so long to bring it up.

I brought it up as soon as I was caught up. Have I misunderstood you?

Re: neil, I'm actually confused about your case on him.

[1: You think HezLucky is scummy, but you think neil is bussing him.]

[2: And you wouldn't be happy with lynching HezLucky even though you think he's scummy.]

I think your case on him comes down to a misinterpretation of his reasoning for voting HezLucky.

[3: I don't think he did it for "pressure", I think he was just noting that HezLucky hasn't been pressured today.]

I also have no idea what the WIFOM scenario he's talking about is, so I can't exactly comment on that.

1:

What don't you understand about that?

2:

Where did I say that?

3:

Maybe I misinterprated it. I got that impression because he stated the reasoning I quoted, and then immediately followed it with "So with that said:" and a vote for HezLucky.

[Wickedestjr]

Empking, what do you think of my point against Sloth?

[Wickedestjr]

Alright... After skimming the thread, it looks like I have a lot to respond to. Not going to get to it all today, as it is pretty late, but I'll see how much I can respond to before I go to sleep.

Well, actually, I did, in the same post I voted TS.

When I first read it, it looked like you were avoiding taking a stance, but, after looking back and rereading the post, it now looks like you were saying you just didn't get any reads from the two players.

Because your other reasons aren't actually reasons... I mean really, scum would want to fly under the radar so they are probably town...? I didn't take your other reasons seriously.

I do think they are good reasons. Scum's main goal is to survive, which means not getting lynched. Town doesn't worry about getting lynched or attracting attention. They just want to hunt scum. So, why would scum get into an argument with another player on page 3 of a game when they didn't know how others would react at the time? I understand that since there are two groups in this game, scum will probably want to scumhunt as well, but survival is still going to come as a priority which is why I had trouble seeing the argument involving scum. I use this logic all the time and it tends to work a lot of the time. I can even link you to a game where I use this point, if you want.

Why are you even questioning me about this? And if this is really something you find worth questioning, then why didn't you say something

before

I continued questioning you?

FoS: MzMuffinMan

I don't like this questioning at all. It looks like scum trying to deflect the attention on to me. Finally, I don't see where you are even going with this questioning.

No, you didn't...

This is my post, and this is your catch-up post.

...you're right. I thought I had mentioned it earlier on. Guess I was wrong. Well, to answer your earlier question:

Me not having a read on Empking/neil based on their argument. I'm interested in why you waited so long to bring it up.

The point was stronger when I mentioned it as opposed to immediately after the exchange had actually occured.

Yes, you're not explicitly stating that you don't want HezLucky lynched, but that's how I read it.

I didn't want him lynched

day 1

.

I'm considering the possibility you're attempting to chainsaw neil. This would explain why you think HezLucky is scummy but you aren't "happy" to lynch him today.

Did you mean to say that you think I might be chainsaw defending HezLucky?

Mod: I'm going to have limited access on Monday. I may not be able to make any posts that day.

[Wickedestjr]

So I don't repeat myself, care to show me where you seem to be lost with my explanation above? I don't really see how you can not understand me here? I'm pretty clear in my explanation.

I just don't understand it.
1. Why did you say you want to ISO

DeityKabuto

Twistedspoon, but then say you didn't think he warranted an ISO?
2. Why did you feel the need to ISO

DeityKabuto

Twistedspoon if you didn't think he warranted a concern?
3. Why did you say you didn't think he warranted a concern despite also saying "I can definitely see him being scum." ?

I think now that you'll read them how I said them, you'll understand them just fine.

Uh... no. I read the post 20-30 times and I still didn't understand it.

The problem is, I don't think you've actually read my posts, and are just looking to cast suspicion that isn't there, onto me and make me look suspicious by branching off someone else's case, which has already been cut down if I'm not mistaken.

No. I read your posts, but your defense didn't make any sense to me. I'm not going to ignore a possible point against you just because the player that brought it up stopped attacking you for it. Also, is there a problem with me "branching off someone else's case"?

And here's with the problem comes, because if you say you did read that and understand now then this post of yours:

I also don't like the quote from him that Regfan pointed out where it looks like he is trying to appear like he's scumhunting.

shows me you aren't actually reading my posts.

...but I have read it and still

don't

understand it. So, this point is meaningless.

First of all. When did I ever mention my vote there because he didn't want to lynch the seer?

You didn't say that and I never said that you did.

Are you blind then? Or purposely ignorant to follow through with your desire to make me look scummy, no matter how far from the truth it really is?

Secondly, in the main points that I gave to my vote, where in that did I ever mention my suspicion there because of his unvote specifically, and not because of the WIFOM that was stated in his unvote?

You said this:

I don't like the WIFOM scenario HezLucky

created with his unvote

, and I've understood that HezLucky has seem to had little to no pressure this day, skating by with a "get out of jail free" pass and nobody's really giving him any pressure.

Which I interprated as you saying you thought the vote was suspicious. However, I can see how I would've misinterprated this.

Why would scum have no motivation to use WIFOM to get them in a comfortable position of not voting anyone, and thus not initially causing any suspicion onto themselves?

...because they could just say 'I'm unvoting because he claimed seer.' which is a perfectly acceptable reason. I think (from memory) a few players had also given this reason for unvoting prior to his unvote.

In fact I understand the burden of proof is on me, so I'll show you why. 1. It creates a comfortable position for them to lurk, by not voting anyone. 2. It creates a position in which they aren't really voting anyone, so they don't have any big stances they need to defend, which means people's eyes won't exactly be focused on them.

HezLucky could have put himself in this position without bringing up the WIFOM if he had just said 'I'm unvoting because Empking claimed seer.'

2.1a.

[1: Since when was a pressure vote any less effective the minute you say it is?]

[2: It's still a vote, that can still lead to a lynch,]

in which can still lead to ultimate death in whatever game you're in? The only difference is, you know it's a pressure vote. It doesn't mean I'm going to remove it now, because you're not responding. If anything, if you don't respond to my accusations, or ignore me, it'll cause me to push even harder. In fact, coming from a Psychology background, that's human nature. We hate being ignored. Care to argue this too?

1:

The whole point of a pressure vote is to get a better idea of the player's allignment. By saying it is a pressure vote, you are implying that you don't have a strong scum read on him, which is something he doesn't need to know. Why did you feel the need to say that it is a pressure vote?

2:

When we were a few days from deadline and he only had one vote, it was unlikely that he would get lynched and I think he knew that.

To rephrase this to make it... more accurate to my actual statement, we'd say "With such a close deadline, it doesn't make any sense for Neil to be pressuring an appearing active lurker that isn't being pressured by anyone else." With this, I ask: Why? A deadline is approaching... so what? It's not here. It's still 6 days away. If I want to pressure someone for a few more days, what's wrong with that? Basically, I'm scummy because I'm not specifically following the crowd and instead I'm going on my own intuition? (See, I can speculate a completely unrelated reason too!)

So that's all your points I believe. Anything else?

Was HezLucky your top suspect at the time of your vote?

[Wickedestjr]

HezLucky, can you please explain your town read of Caboose? Thanks.

He saw an opportunity to drawn attention towards a particular player on something that is relatively unallignment based and took it, doing so means discussion is tained from the get-go, doing so is a scum-tell.

I don't think it was unallignment based. Empking was saying that neil1113 was scum and MoI was a scumbuddy blatantly defending him on page 3. I had trouble believing that he actually believed they were connected if he was town and I don't see how it isn't allignment related.

Wicked - What experience have you had with MoI prior to this game? Have you spectated other of his games? If so what conclusion have you drawn about his playstyle?

I have played with him in, I think, three games, but in one of those games we didn't interact with each other hardly any if at all. All three of those games he was town, so I'm not very familiar with his scum meta. From memory, he is pretty aggressive and tends to say a lot of things that I disagree with. His behavior here seems similar, but I dislike his plan to lynch Empking if he's alive tomorrow. Does that answer your question?

[Wickedestjr]

I have a slightly scummy read on Wicked based on him constantly trying to find things that simply aren't scum tells and calling them scummy. I think he's trying to make it look like he's scum hunting by throwing accusations at everyone, but he's not actually doing it for good reasons. I think a lot of his suspicions are poorly reasoned,

Where have I done this?

...and his recent posts are extremely inconsistent.

How?

e.g. His case on neil at the moment revolves around him thinking that HezLucky is scum and neil is his partner... But he wouldn't be happy with a HezLucky lynch, just a neil lynch, and he's made no real mention of why he thinks HezLucky is scummy, he's just said he thinks it.

Nice misrep. First of all, no, my case doesn't revolve around HezLucky being scum. It's a possibility, but I found neil suspicious for the vote regardless of HezLucky's allignment. Secondly, I never said I wouldn't be happy with a HezLucky lynch. I just said that I didn't want to lynch him

day 1

. Finally, I don't have any solid evidence against HezLucky. My suspicion of him is combination of gut and POE (but mostly gut).

@DeityKabuto - I haven't ignored it, but I'm just responding to posts in order.

[Wickedestjr]

@MagnaofIllusion - Why have you been ignoring my posts in response/directed to you?

This is scummy.

[1: The point has already been made (by MOI) and it doesn't really need expanding, but Wickedestjr feels the need to get in on it himself.]

[2: The question is ridiculous and pointless.]

[3: Wickedestjr is trying to drive a mislynch.]

[4: Also the question to MOI was completely pointless too.]

1:

Why not? Was I just supposed to ignore it? Also, can this point against me also be applied to MOI post #412?

2:

Explain. I don't think so.

3:

In the pregame?

This

point is ridiculous. Do you honestly think I'm stupid enough to think I could pull that off?

4:

FoS: LynchMePls

So... Let me get this straight. Asking MoI why he said Caboose was eager to vote was a pointless question? If that's the case, then why did you feel the need to comment on it here:

Someone's eager to lay down a vote before the Mod officially starts the game ...

Someone's eager to imply scum motivations where there is none.

?

Keep on scumming it up.

Elaborate.

[1: So you agree with the wagon, and vote it but at the same time you attack others reasons for voting the wagon?]

[2: And then the reasons you give for voting it aren't even all that stellar?]

Scummy as hell. Most likely distancing from Regfan.

1:

Yes. Am I not allowed/supposed to do that for some reason? Please elaborate. There

are

two scum teams in this game. And even if there was only one scum team, just because I vote somebody doesn't mean I can't question the reasoning of other votes for the same person.

2:

I thought the reasons were good ones. After reading your catchup post, I don't believe you are qualified to criticise me here.

Things I don't like about this post:

1) Complains about not liking walls.
2) Says he is happy that people have prodded Empking into more activity, and will do so in future games. Nevermind the fact that this has produced a number of massive walls from Empking.
...
5) Despite previous "something off" about MOI, suddenly agrees whole heartedly with him and votes Empking.

1) Your point?
2) Your point?
5) Your point?

That reaction to the death completly contradicts your play throughout yesterday especially given your willingness to lynch a seer claim.
Vote: Cjdrum

Cjdrum's reaction to the death, itself, wasn't very suspicious imo, but Regfan brings up a good point here. His reaction is inconsistent with his previous play.

FoS: cjdrum

From reading the past few pages, Wickedestjr was the main driver of TwistedSpoon's case, explain yourself, please. You didn't have "strong" evidence for actually wanting him lynched.

I believe the evidence was good. He was lurking, ignoring accusations, and wasn't scumhunting AT ALL. That's pretty good evidence. I don't even care that he flipped town. He needed to die for such terrible play. Town couldn't afford to have him around very long. Why am I the only player that is suspicious for voting him? Five other players agreed with the reasoning.

In neither of the first two scenarios do mafia automatically win because it would take 4 to lynch and they wouldn't have a majority (3 v 2+1 is not a majority and neither the werewolf team or town team is going to hand over the game tot he mafia team at that point, I'd assume), and the third scenario isn't exactly accurate either.

Wrong. Check the mafia win condition. They win if they make up half the town and there is a townie alive. So, in this situation, mafia

would

win.

[Wickedestjr]

Alright. I'm not finished catching up, but I have work to do. So, here are my thoughts:

LynchMePls - Scum. Didn't like the catchup post.
Regfan - Town.
DeityKabuto - Town.
HezLucky - Neutral. (Looks a little bit better after reading his last big post in day 1.)
cjdrum - Scum.
MagnaofIllusion - Town.
neil1113 - Neutral/Scum (His reaction to my suspicion of him looks a little bit townish, but there are still a few questions I need answered.
Sloth - Scum.
zMuffinMan - Neutral/Scum

I'd like to read my scumspects in ISO later as well.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP:

MagnaofIllusion - Neutral

@Mod:

You've still got Empking listed in the votecount.

[Wickedestjr]

Prod received. I don't know why I got one, though.

Mod:

A few days ago, I said that I would have limited access yesterday.

Must've forgotten about/missed that, sorry! You're back at 0 strikes.

I'm still behind, but I'm going to

Vote: cjdrum

anyway. I'll give reasons later, but for now this seems like the best place for my vote.

[Wickedestjr]

If this doesn't look like scum paranoia, I don't know what is. You're overly defensive, and you appear to be trying hard to discredit the case and the person making the case.

If this isn't bad scumhunting, I don't know what is.

How was I being overdefensive and why does that make me suspicious? Personally, I thought I had brought up a good point against zMuffinMan. The fact that you undermine my scumhunting (in this case) and consider it an attempt of mine to

defend myself

reads badly (because you haven't even considered the possibility of my point against zMM being true). zMuffinMan attacked one of my posts (that I had made a long time ago) shortly after I continued attacking him. If it was something that he

really

found suspicious, then he would've questioned me on it earlier. He waited until after I continued attacking him. His attack for me can only be scum trying to deflect attention off themselves. Maybe I

am

being overdefensive, but that is both my playstyle (I suggest you see my other games) and because I hate when people push bad points against me.

Trying hard to discredit the case? What the heck does that even mean? As town, it is my responsibility to defend against the accusations directed at me and explain why and how they are wrong. And of course I'm going to discredit my attacker if their accusation seems scum motivated. Why wouldn't I if I actually felt the point against me was coming from scum (and had good reason to think so)?

1. My overall view of his posting up to that point, without the proper ISO, made me think he didn't have much content or posts to really look at. So I was saying I want to ISO him, though I'm not too sure if I'll find anything. Basically it was a "don't expect for me to come off the ISO with a hard view on him one way or the other.

2. I admit, I didn't mean that the way it sounds out of context. It was a "I can see Twisted being scum, indefinitely. I haven't ruled it out. However, for a Day 1 Lynch so far, I don't see what he's done that's warranted much of a concern up at that point for people to be considering him for a Day 1 lynch."

3. Explained above.

Alright, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. However, I

still

think the post in question looks like scum trying to look like they're scumhunting. Questions:
A. It isn't completely clear to me, but had you given Twistedspoon an ISO read at the time you mentioned reading him in ISO?
B. Did you ever read Twistedspoon in ISO?
C. If the answer to A was no and the answer to B was yes, then can you link me to your first post after reading him in ISO?
Thanks.

2. This is a misrepresentation of my posts to you. I don't appreciate you stretching what I've said. Did I ever say, specifically or implementally, that you should ignore any posts, mine or not?
3. Yes,

[A: because you use their foundation for your case]

and

[B: it's very easy to create fluff cases]

, with

[C: no real content of your own]

. It's a scum tactic in my opinion,

[D: that gives you easy oppurtunity to look like you're scum hunting without much actual hunting on your part.]

2. I'm not deliberately misrepping you here. That is just the way I interprated your post. Specifically, the bolded portion in this post gave me that impression:

The problem is, I don't think you've actually read my posts, and are just looking to cast suspicion that isn't there, onto me and make me look suspicious by branching off someone else's case,

which has already been cut down if I'm not mistaken.

However, rereading the post, I can see how I could've easily misunderstood what you were saying. I apologise.
3.

A.

Is this a problem?

B.

I don't understand this. I never created a case. Regfan was the person that originally brought up the point. What did you mean when you said this?

C.

I'm confused again. Are you saying that it is suspicious that I am using another player's point against you?
If not, then why would I need to add content of my own? While I don't understand why there would be a problem with this, I think

I've

dug a little bit deeper with this point than Regfan had. So I completely disagree that I'm not providing content of my own.

D.

What? How am I not scumhunting in this case? Regfan seems to have stopped arguing with you over this point and it looks to me as if I've taken control of the argument.

I'm

the one currently asking you questions about something that I think might be allignment indicative. Maybe I misunderstood you...?

This is the problem with WIFOM, is that the only answer you can really give, is WIFOM. -__-

You have to draw a line somewhere when using WIFOM, because it can be applied to

any

post in this thread. The point I'm trying to get across could certainly be

considered

WIFOM, but it doesn't make sense for HezLucky to be using it in this case. He has no reason to. Answer this question: Why wouldn't HezLucky just say: "I'm unvoting because Empking claimed seer." Why would he have even given the other reason instead if he felt that it was WIFOMy?

1. A. You didn't answer how it becomes any less effective. Instead you just gave a definition on what a pressure vote is. B. And I felt the need to say that, so that others when reading my vote, should they so choose, they can also hop on the pressure wagon. C. The point of pressure, is when a wagon forms it causes someone to respond. See? <<< I can do it too.

2. Does that stop me from placing the vote? If not, of what importance is this point?

3. Was he more of a suspect then anyone else at the moment? Yes but not by much. Did I have a "top suspect" that really stood out above everyone else, no.

1. A. *Sigh* I thought I made it pretty clear why I believed saying that made the vote less effective:

The whole point of a pressure vote is to get a better idea of the player's allignment. By saying it is a pressure vote, you are implying that you don't have a strong scum read on him, which is something he doesn't need to know.

This makes the vote less effective, because it, imo, decreases the amount of pressure the person being voted actually feels.
B. Alright, I guess this explanation is plausible.
C. Is that all it does in your opinion? Do you think the vote has an influence on the way HezLucky responded to your points against him? Do you think he would've ignored you if you hadn't voted him and instead just given reasons for suspecting him?

2. My point is that HezLucky probably didn't feel any pressure from the vote because of these circumstances.

3. How many days did you have in mind when you said this earlier:

If I want to pressure someone for a few more days, what's wrong with that?

[Wickedestjr]

I really don't like zMM's wall post on page 18. I'll explain later when I have more time to.

[Wickedestjr]

Alright... I think this will be a big post. I would like zMuffinMan to read/respond to everything, but for the other players that don't want to read this whole post: please read inside the area box - I don't care if you read the spoiler or not.

zMuffinMan's post 441. Reasons why I don't like it:
1.) It contains

a lot

of IIoA.
2.) It contains several examples of obvious misrep. Here's an example:

- at this point I am so frustrated at Empking I would be happy to policy lynch him regardless of alignment.
- can we vig him? his being alive is detrimental to the town.

Making a note of the above quote because his later posts suggest he thinks people pushing for an Empking lynch are scummy...

He suggests an inconsistency here, but he is pretty obviously taking HezLucky's posts out of context here. Very scummy: I can't see TownzMuffinMan making this mistake. I think the misrep looked deliberate.

3.) Earlier he gave me a hard time for saying that Empking and neil1113 were unlikely to attract attention to themselves early on as scum. From memory, he said that it was weak reasoning. However, in his post 441, he feels the need to mention that Hez's rvs vote for me is a possible link between us. Way to both have your cake and eat it.

Now to respond to the content directed at me...

ISO#9 is his first association with Hez - apparently TS is suspicious for voting Hez

You need to learn how to scumhunt, if you are town, because this point is TERRIBLE. I NEVER said that TS was suspicious for voting Hez. I said he was suspicious for voting somebody with no votes when he had previously expressed interest in a bandwagon. Acting like that was my reason is a huge misrep. Also, this is extremely inconsistent.

You

suspected Twistedspoon as well. If there was good reasons to be voting him, then why does

my

vote look like a chainsaw defense? You didn't have any problem with my reasons for voting TS yesterday (that I can remember), so trying to make it scummy now is only making yourself look bad.

Spoiler: zMuffinMan

ISO#26 making a big deal out of MoI suggesting Empking should be lynched D2.
ISO#30 his explanation of neil's posts is interesting.

IIoA. What's your point in mentioning this? Because I have no idea. Do you have a problem with me saying these things? If you do, please explain, because I thought my ISO#26 was perfectly warranted and I don't know what 'interesting' means in this context.

ISO#28 suggesting neil's vote on HezLucky looks "bad" without giving a reason

I

have

explained this opinion. What's your point?

This is generally what how an argument occurs... But how is this relevant?

By 'argued with' I mean 'suspected'.

Reasons 1 and 2 for thinking neil is suspicious look contrived, as though you're trying way too hard to look for scummy behaviour. For example, the part about pressure votes was irrelevant because it wasn't a "pressure vote".

I'm pretty sure he even said that pressure was one of the reasons for his vote.

Also, interesting to note here is that he criticises neil for voting for Hez near the deadline, but surprise, surprise, no mention of Hez's votes near the deadline. Although at this point Hez hadn't voted MoI yet, but the vote on DK was just as useless because there was little interest in a DK lynch and Hez didn't even try to push a DK lynch.

First of all, your wrong: there were many people that found DK suspicious. Secondly, there's a clear difference. Hez wanted DK lynched when he voted him at the end of the day. I didn't get that impression from neil1113.

And this is the quote that really set off alarms for me. Despite thinking Hez is suspicious (although no real mention as to why), he wants to lynch neil but not Hez.

This really looks like a case of Wicked trying to push a case on someone while FoSing his partner.

Actually, there's really not much content in Wicked ISO about Hez at all, except for Wicked apparently thinking Hez is scummy, but no real mention of why that I can find.

Also, I need to read Wicked's posts D2 properly, because I haven't really read through them

I believe I've explained my read on Hez and cleared this confusion.

I can't remember off the top of my head why I said this but I assume it had to do with your posts near the end of D1 and I might have specifically been referring to your actions surrounding Hez. I will have to go back and read again and try to remember what I was talking about here.

Alright, well please let me know when you remember (or admit that there is no inconsistency).

Sorry,

[1: you said you think neil is bussing]

,

[2: and you think (or thought) Hez is scum]

(but now you're apparently null on him), so I just connected the dots here...

[3: Although it is true that your case on neil revolved entirely around his vote on Hez initially, because prior to that you supposedly had a town read on him.]

1:

I said it was a possibility.

2:

Where did I say this? Please quote me saying this.

3:

It wasn't the strongest point I brought up against him imo.

[Wickedestjr]

Since he's scum we should just lynch him and save the mod the trouble.

Not a bad idea. My scumread on cjdrum is about as strong as my scumread on Sloth and I'd be willing to switch my vote to the latter if there is enough support and cjdrum has defended against the points I bring up. (which I'm still working on)

[Wickedestjr]

The main reason I looked in cjdrum's direction originally was because of the inconsistency pointed out earlier. However, I thought about this supposed 'inconsistency' a little bit more and I don't really think it is valid any more. Having said that, I did find some suspiciousness upon giving cjdrum an iso read. Admittedly, there has been a lot of strange behavior from cjdrum and a lot of it I think is a result of inexperience. However, I think that he is guilty of some actions which are suspicious regardless of his experience in playing this game.

First of all, out of all the votes on Empkingtown's bandwagon, I think cjdrum did the worst job of jusitifying his position. In his first serious post of the game he said that Empking vs. neil was probably not town vs. town but never does explain why. Furthermore, in the same post he says that he doesn't see much evidence against either Empking or neil. In addition, in this post he:
1.) Asks neil1113 what he

really

thinks about Empking which implies that he thinks (or possibly knows) that neil is scum. He can't know neil's allignment at this point unless he is scum himself and thinking that neil is scum contradicts his statement that he doesn't see much evidence against him. I'm not sure which is the case here, but either way, the question feels off.
2.) He stresses the fact that he doesn't see much evidence against either Empking or neil1113 and says that he's leaning in Empking's direction mostly because others are voting him.

His second post in the game (13 hours after the previous one) he states that either Empking is scum or neil and MoI are.

Something extremely interesting to note: Empking flipped town, but cjdrum hasn't expressed any suspicion of neil1113 or MoI today. Moreover, he hasn't mentioned either of them or the point that he brought up earlier.

There's something else that is very interesting. He voted Empking and said 'OBV MOST PROBABLE CHOICE IS OBV' which indicates that he is very confident in this read. This is a big jump from his previous post, which came 13 hours earlier, in which he said that there was hardly any evidence against Empking. His future posts also indicate/prove that he is confident in his Empking scumread.

Throughout most of day 1 cjdrum has coasted giving reads on nobody other than Empking, which is suspicious. Finally, he was asked for his two strongest scum reads and two strongest town reads, but avoided giving names in his response. cjdrum, you said you would explain that at the end of day 1, but haven't yet. Why not? Can you please respond now?

I am pretty sure he's scum.

[Wickedestjr]

Also,

Mod:

I'm voting cjdrum.

[Wickedestjr]

I just checked Hez's meta. There aren't many games, but his playstyle is different in the games he's flipped town.

There's none of the complaining that he's doing in this game

, and when I was reading through his posts in games he was town I didn't get the same feeling that his posts were forced and insincere like I'm getting in this game.

Have you looked at his scum play? Did you find any instances where he was complaining as scum?

If you can point me to post numbers where you feel I am ignoring your post and you expect response from me please let do so and I’d be happy to respond.

Did you have anything to say in response to 356? I had issue with your plan for handling the seer.

Hmm... I thought DK was probably town, but that read has weakened after he voted neil1113. Yesterday he voted both neil and I for pushing for the Empking lynch and Twistedspoon lynches respectively, because both players flipped town. However, there is an inconsistency: he goes into a lot of effort to justify his original vote for neil, but justifies his vote for me with a one-liner. Why is that? Possible DK-neil connection. Or DK could be scum that is more confident in his vote for neil because he's gotten more attention than me.

While I don't like DK's vote for neil, neil's response is terribly scummy. I suspected that some of his previous suspicions/accusations in this game were based on OMGUS, but I am 110% certain that that is the case for his DK vote. Firstly, he is voting DK because he thought the reasoning DK gave for voting him was bad, however, this was the

same

reasoning DK used against

me

. So, if neil1113 really had a problem with this logic, then why didn't he say anything when

I

was being attacked for it? Secondly, I also believe it is OMGUS, because prior to the vote, neil had made

no mention

of suspecting DK (at least from a skim of his iso). So all of a sudden, DK makes one post he has issues with and he becomes more voteworthy than anyone else. I'm not buying it. Thirdly, I'm surprised he didn't vote for HezLucky: after skimming his ISO from day 2, he

never

expressed any interest in voting HezLucky despite not ever giving any sign of that suspicion diminishing (that I can remember) and considering that was who he had been voting at the end of day 1, I find this suspicious. Also, he hadn't been voting anybody at the time of his vote for DK almost as if he was waiting for something suspicious to happen, which seems odd considering he was able to find a place for his vote at the end of day 1. I'm pretty sure neil is scum after this. I'd move my vote there, but I'm not necessarily certain he's a Werewolf (the group I would like to go after today) and I'd also like to finish catching up.

1. WickedJestrs post with his reads screams town here, mafia generally attempt to avoid stating certain thoughts on other players as it cuts down possible future mslynches.

While I'm glad you correctly see me as town, I find it hard to believe you actually get this impression from the post where I gave my reads. It seems like fairly weak evidence to say that it 'screams town'. Regfan, can you elaborate on this point? Posting reads seems to be something that many players do all the time regardless of allignment. While I can see how it could be a very slight towntell, I don't see how it 'screams town'. Also, you make no mention of LynchMePls despite him doing the exact same thing (and even putting his reads in order of scummiest to towniest). Any particular reason?

2. Wicked, if you had to name two people were town for sure here, who would they be and why?

Why do you need to know this?

Hopefully I'll be able to catch up a little more... Most of my MS time was spent making this post.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, as I said in the previous post, I think we need to aim for a Werewolf lynch today. Werewolves are our biggest threat right now and if we don't lynch one of them today, it will be MyLo tomorrow and they'll be very close to winning whereas two mafia surviving to tomorrow isn't as much of a cause for concern (especially considering the possibility of one of them getting nk'd).

I haven't read the whole thread yet, so I'm sorry if you guys have already given your thoughts on this, but if you haven't, what do you guys think of the idea of aiming for a werewolf?

[Wickedestjr]

[1: It's a direct misrepresentation of what I said]

, and

[2: it's also extremely hypocritical because it's what you did.]

Considering my rebuttal of your terrible argument against a much earlier post of mine as by referencing a much earlier post of yours, it's actually funny that you're even trying to use this against me.

1:

How is it a misrep? Elaborate, please.

2:

I'm assuming you're talking about me 'waiting so long' to bring up you not having a read on Empking vs. neil. If so...
a.) It wasn't something I had realized you were guilty of until you made a post in which you commented on a point against Empking without giving your read on him.
b.) There is a difference between the point I'm using against you and the point you're using against me. You could easily notice my reasons for believing neil vs. Empking was town vs. town just by reading the thread. Not noticing that you hadn't given your opinion on either of them was something that required an iso read.
c.) My point against you was stronger the later it was brought up.

Also, you still haven't defended against my point.

Cjdrum - So you're placing your vote on the lurker?

This question looks odd considering you had Sloth as one of your top three suspects at the time of this post. Can you explain this please?

Never the less my pressure on you has yielded what I was interested in seeing from you currently.

I have something I’m keeping my eye on but I want to see more posts from him today.

Explain please.

He hasn't flipped scum yet that I've seen.

So why are you using meta against him?

[Wickedestjr]

- Wicked #436 - I would thinkt he part where he writes "FOS: cjdrum" merits a vote, given that "his reaction is inconsistent with previous play" is usually a pretty solid scumtell.

I was catching up at the time of that post. But if you believe that inconsistencies are pretty solid scumtells, then why did you give cjdrum a rating of 52/100 in the same post?

HezLucky's response to zMuffinMan's vote looks a lot like townie frustration/annoyance at being attacked. I'm getting strong town vibes from his post 478.

Spoiler: zMuffinMan

There's no misrepresentation there. Hez clearly indicates he doesn't care about Emp's flip, he just wants him lynched. Later he plays white knight acting like Emp's lynch would be tragic (when it really wouldn't be because if he was the real seer he'd die N1 anyway... we'd be only slightly worse off if he were lynched D1)

When he made the comment about policy lynching Empking, that was before he knew that Empking was the seer.

Having said that, after thinking it over some more, I see where you're coming from with this point. I just don't agree with it.

Are... you... serious? You think something as subtle as an RVS vote draws attention to yourself? The point of mentioning the RVS vote is that it was one of the more noticeable links between you and Hez. It wasn't obvious "attention attraction" like the neil vs Emp thing.

Try harder.

Nice misrep. I am NOT saying that an RVS vote attracts attention to yourself (and I don't see how in the world you came to that conclusion). I'm saying that I think it's hypocritical how you say my point (that made me believe Empking vs. neil was town vs. town) was weak, yet you are saying HezLucky's RANDOM VOTE for me is an interesting link between the two of us.

Again, this wasn't proof that you are scum, I was pointing out the link between you and Hez that has been consistent throughout the game.

Hint: "his first association with Hez" should have clued you in on this.

It was nothing to do with finding you scummy. It was your association with Hez.

Yes. I read your posts and understand that that was what you were getting at. However, you are

still

misrepping my vote for TS.

You made a big deal out of MoI suggesting something that was perfectly logical and not at all scummy. For someone that complains about IIoA, you're pretty hypocritical.

How am I hypocritical? Do you even know what IIoA means?

How does making a big deal out of what MoI was suggesting make any sense? How was MoI suspicious for suggesting i?

It makes perfect sense for me to make a big deal out of MoI's suggestion. MoI's plan was bad and certainly not 'perfectly logical'. His plan involved lynching Empking if he survived to day 2 as if this was evidence to indicate Empking was scum. Why would we waste a lynch on Empking for this reason when we could determine his allignment based on whether or not there was a counterclaim? Also, why would we plan to lynch our seer if they live to day 2? Then the werewolves definitely wouldn't kill him if they didn't think they'd be investigated. I don't see how a townie would think of doing this.

Also, why did you wait until then to bring this up?

Stating you're voting someone to put pressure on them doesn't mean there's any less pressure.

If he said he was voting purely for pressure (and not because he found Hez scummy as well), then you might have a case here...

neil-on-Hez: He's scummy and needs pressure
you-on-neil: Well, you said you were doing it for pressure, that's scummy because he knows he's being pressured now.

And you don't see the problem here?

I've nearly retracted this point (I'm just waiting for answers to a few questions). At the time I gave this point, I found it suspicious because I saw no reason for him to say it was a pressure vote.

1: No, there was no support for a DK lynch. There were people who found him suspicious, but there was no support for a D1 DK lynch.

2: If Hez wanted DK lynched, then why did he change his vote to MoI, who had even less support than DK?

1: Maybe not at the time of his vote, but there were four other people that had voted DK at some point during day 1 and his wagon was tied for the largest at one point. It wasn't outrageous to think it was possible for enough people to support a lynch on him.

2: I missed that. However, there's still a difference. I didn't get the impression that neil wanted to lynch HezLucky day 1, but HezLucky actually did say he wanted MoI lynched.

Gut+PoE?

The main issue I have here is that you clearly said you thought Hez was scummy, and you clearly said you thought neil was bussing Hez, but you showed absolutely no interest in putting any pressure on Hez, or questioning Hez, or anything of the sort.

Oh my goodness. I think I might want to lynch you just out of annoyance. I have clarified this SO MANY TIMES and you are soooo incredibly ignorant. I'll respond to this one piece at a time...

you clearly said you thought HezLucky was scummy

No I didn't. I said I suspected him and, in a game with so many scum, and several town reads at the time, he didn't need to do anything scummy for me to suspect him of being scum. My suspicion was solely due to gut and PoE.

you clearly said you thought neil was bussing Hez

I've explained this at least 2/3 times. How many more times do I need to say it? Here:
*I said it was

just

a possibility. Hez didn't need to be a scumbuddy for the point to still be valid.
*I said it was

just

a possibility. Hez didn't need to be a scumbuddy for the point to still be valid.
*I said it was

just

a possibility. Hez didn't need to be a scumbuddy for the point to still be valid.
Understand now?

you showed absolutely no interest in putting any pressure on Hez, or questioning Hez, or anything of the sort.

I was more focused on players that I found more suspicious and responding to posts/questions/accusations directed at me. I was also playing catchup for most of the game so I didn't have the time to investigate beyond my top 3/4 suspects. Just because there are five scum in the game doesn't mean I have to actively question all 5/6 of my top suspects.

You thought both of them were scum, you suggested neil was bussing. That's not suggesting a possibility.

You are ignoring the fact that my point doesn't revolve around the premise that both players are scum. The only player that needs to be scum for the point to be valid is neil and he's the one that I was attacking. I don't see how this is so hard to believe.

Uh.... This post took me way too long. I'm still 2/3 pages behind, so I'm just going to cast a vote.

Vote: neil1113

I am about 90% certain he's scum of some sort. I really don't know what group he's from, though, so I'm going to need to take a look at his interactions with cjdrum when I get the chance.

[Wickedestjr]

especially Sloth, who looks REALLY bad by replacing out. (I did that once - when I was scum)

How many games have you played HezLucky? In your experience do scum replace out more often than town?

ISOing CJ was to no avail, as my suspicions brought me with 4 possible suspects of his partners (which obviously is wrong, as there can only be 2 partners of his.) They are:

Hez,

Deity

, Sloth, and

DK

.

Lol. I guess you find DeityKabuto twice as suspicious as the other two players? Who is

really

your fourth suspect for cjdrum's partner?

268 - wkdjr say MOI-Emp exchange points to MOI as town. (Why town? Why not competing scum factions? How does the Emp flip affect the town read on MOI?)

Originally, I felt that MoI was brave as scum to attract so much attention to himself. But, to be honest, after thinking about this point some more I don't put much merit in this point anymore, because there were several players that suspected Empking and MoIscum could have easily argued with Empking to try to earn townpoints. The Empking town flip didn't change anything considering I had a very strong town read on him before he even died.

511 - DK attests that if cj is scum that scum will 'try' to avoid his wagon.

(Way to commit)

This seems like an odd comment coming from you, considering in the same post you say this:

Leaning scum - DK, MOI, ZMuffin, and neil.

I'm not confident enough in my scum radar to believe I have pegged all four

but these four have most of my suspicions.

[Wickedestjr]

Aside from the havingfitz vote, I have issue with most of MoI's post 542.

What happened was you brought up a really old post and said you had a problem with it. I asked why you didn't mention it earlier. You said you did. I called bullshit because you didn't.

So no, I'm not attacking you for an old post, I'm attacking you for lying about what you said you did.

*Shrugs* I thought I had brought it up earlier than I actually did. What is the scum motivation for lying about something that is so easily provable?

And it's extremely hypocritical of you to tell me if I found it "suspicious" I would have "questioned me on it earlier". How is this not hypocritical?

I've explained why the two situations are different:

2: I'm assuming you're talking about me 'waiting so long' to bring up you not having a read on Empking vs. neil. If so...
a.) It wasn't something I had realized you were guilty of until you made a post in which you commented on a point against Empking without giving your read on him.
b.) There is a difference between the point I'm using against you and the point you're using against me. You could easily notice my reasons for believing neil vs. Empking was town vs. town just by reading the thread. Not noticing that you hadn't given your opinion on either of them was something that required an iso read.
c.) My point against you was stronger the later it was brought up.

Why have you ignored this? Responding to my post by saying "Well, how is it

not

hypocritical?" does nothing to prove your point and it is just ignorant.

Also, you

still

haven't responded to my point against you. Even

if

I was being hypocritical for attacking you for this (which I'm not as I've clearly shown) that doesn't mean you are allowed to avoid explaining the point against you. +Scumpoints for zMuffinMan

My case stands independent of meta. His town meta just solidifies my read on him.

*sighs*

Another

instance of you avoiding my questions/accusations. Does this mean you don't think the meta is valid anymore? If you do think that the meta is still valid, then please answer my question: why are you using meta on a player that hasn't been scum before?

Not really. I don’t particularly care if you disagreed with my plan. In the end as the real Seer he got killed as I predicted. Your sky is falling approach to his theoretically living thorugh the night was just that. Werewolves can’t risk the at worst 20% chance (2 Wolves out of 10 non Seer alive players) one of them gets scanned. 356 was an exercise if overthinking.

I still find it odd that you would've considered lynching Empking to be the best way to determine his allignment as opposed to the real seer counterclaiming him.

Let me ask you – you specifically asked me why I was ignoring your QUESTIONS, plural. You’ve only provide one question so far that I ‘dodged’. Why the emphasis that inferred I ‘ignored’ you more than once?

At the time I asked you why you were 'ignoring' me, I was thinking about both post 356 and my response to your accusation towards me. However, shortly after you asked me what you had 'ignored', I realized that your accusation towards me was that I was connected to Empking. However, Empking had flipped town, thus making the points invalid anyway.

Care to provide some context? Or at least post numbers? I’m not going to search my own ISO for two sentances.

Both quotes were from post 473.

Just when I thought I was almost finished - large WoTs.

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: I'm going to have limited access the next 3/4 days. I

should

still be able to post during that time.

@neil - Can you please respond to my posts directed at you yesterday and the points I brought up against you today? Thanks.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm back. I thought I would have internet at the place I stayed at, but I didn't, so I am still behind. However, it doesn't look like you guys posted

that

much while I was gone, so it shouldn't take me much longer to catch up than it should have.

[Wickedestjr]

Page 23 responses... Very big post.

Spoiler: Regfan

Although stating reads is more a player-tell than an allignment related tell in a game where there's only one allignment with a night-kill players with Evil Sheep or Werewolve allignments would attempt to not stand out as much as possible, attempting to push a case strongly isn't the way to do that. Although LMP stated a list of reads he never truly pushed a lynch, he rather stood back and showed intent to lurker-lynch. I'll attempt to explain it simplier:

1. Evilsheep would refrain from strongly bussying Cjdrum for one reason, that reason being that leading on a scum lynch increases the likelihood that player gets night-killed. This would mean that Evilsheep would lose two members with no gain.

2. Werewolves would refrain from strongly pushing a lynch in the manner you did on Cjdrum for two reasons, one being if they do indeed get a scum lynched later in the game they're going to have to explain why they're still alive. The second reason being if Cjdrum flipped town the Evilsheep would have near-majority of the numbers in the game and would happilly push towards you with the town for causing a msylnch in such a position.

A. Maybe I'm misreading this, but you haven't answered my question. I understand how you would find pushing strongly for a lynch to 'scream town'. However, you said my post where I gave my reads 'screamed town'. Why is that?

B. I am concerned with your reasons for believing that a Werewolf wouldn't strongly push for a lynch. Reason 1 is kind of weak and basically WIFOM, right? Reason 2 doesn't make any sense to me- can you explain it in more detail?

Simple. There are few town-players left alive, although scumhunting to find the scum is needed what is also needed is to work out who you believe the other town members are to avoid and protect them from getting lynched.

So, just to be clear, you want to know my town reads so

we

can protect them from getting lynched?

His vote on Sloth seemed opportunistic due to the fact he never stated any real suspicion towards Sloth earlier, especially due to the fact he DID state suspicion towards alternate players.

By opportunistic do you mean 'going for the easy target'? ...because he was only the second vote on the Sloth bandwagon.

Spoiler: zMuffinMan

Right... You're just long-winded and it was a misinterpretation if that was the actual point you were trying to get across.

But the fact that you're calling it a misrep is a joke.

Your point is still invalid, because I'm not saying you're scum because of the link, I'm saying it's a link.

*sigh* You are

still

misinterprating/misrepping my point. You

aren't

calling me scum because of HL's random vote for me. I understand that. You see the random vote as a possible link between us. I understand that. My point is that I think calling HL's random vote for me a link is weak evidence. Furthermore, I find it hypocritical how you questioned me for using, what you believe, is weak evidence. Does it make sense now?

It was perfectly logical, because only a VI-werewolf or a really-arrogant-werewolf would let the seer get a check off. Gambling like that isn't worth it just on the off-chance that you may be able to push a lynch on him the next day.

You were making a big deal out of it and calling him suspicious for doing it when there was no scum motivation behind that suggestion.

First of all, what do you think of the game I referenced? The player that left the cop alive in that game was neither a VI nor arrogant.

Secondly, yes, there is scum motivation for saying what MoI said: getting the seer lynched if they survive to day 2.

These explanations hold no water. DK wasn't going to be lynched. Neither was MoI. His votes were useless.

You are really tunnel-visioned. Why don't you read the friggin thread? There were many players that suspected DK. And why don't you learn how to argue your points. Several of our arguments have followed the same pattern:

zMuffinMan: [insert point]
Wickedestjr: That point is invalid because [insert rational argument].
zMuffinMan: Is not!

You keep saying that I'm wrong but haven't explained why my points are wrong and haven't defended your PoV at all. Why, as town, would you do that? There

is

no town motivation. You are scum that

can't

explain your points.

Explain your points instead of continuously insisting I'm wrong.

263 - MOI declares DK 100% VI and is willing to lynch him if necessary...though it seems policy-like.

This seems like an odd comment considering you also suspect DK.

Also, havingfitz, two questions:

1. Do you have anything to say regarding my last comment directed to you in post 576?
2. Do you think werewolves will be trying to hunt for mafia right now? Why?

Can someone please make a case on me and stop saying you're so certain I'm scum? I'm town for the freaking record, and it's pissing me off now. Three of you now, call me scum, place your vote on me, and I've yet to see a single point / case made that wasn't about CJ. You three (Reg, Wicked, and Deity) are officially making this game no fun. Please for the love of all that is holy, SCUM HUNT. If you were, you wouldn't be voting me because I'm not scum. Good god you three piss me off.

neil1113, I have brought up points against you which you have ignored. Why not respond to posts 469 and 545? Until then, don't include me in the group of players that hasn't justified their position on the bandwagon. Also, at the time of this post,

you

weren't and aren't doing hardly any scumhunting.

Also, I am responding to this outside of the spoiler so that it doesn't go unnoticed:

Again, I'm not misrepping anything. A link is a link.

In that case, you really need to learn how to scumhunt, because this point is just terrible. Also, it is suspicious how, rather than convince me of your PoV, you simply try to justify it by saying 'a link is a link'. Here's what happened:

Twistedspoon (in confirmation stage): I think neil is a good target for an RVS bandwagon.
Umbrage: The game begins.
Twistedspoon: VOTE: HezLucky. (random vote)
Twistedspoon: [insert suspicious comments]
Wickedestjr: VOTE: Twistedspoon. My reasons: 1.) [insert point against TS here] 2.) [insert another point against TS here] 3.) He also random voted somebody with no votes when, in the confirmation stage, he expressed interest in starting an RVS bandwagon.
zMuffinMan: There's a link between Wicked and Hez. Wicked voted TS for random voting Hez.

How does this point make ANY sense at all? He sees a link between me and Hez because I attacked Twistedspoon for three reasons and only

ONE

of which revolved around his

RANDOM VOTE

. Keep in mind that the point regarding TS's random vote had

NOTHING

to do with the fact that he voted Hez specifically. Furthermore, zMuffinMan, despite using this weak point against me, has accused me of using weak evidence.

@MoI, Regfan & havingfitz-

What do you guys think of this point from zMM? Also, notice how, rather than convince me of his PoV, he simply tries to justify it by saying 'a link is a link'. What do you think of that?

That would make sense, the only thing that worries me is that if we do indeed manage to lynch a werewolf today they have less incentive to shoot towards the Evil Sheep as leaving them alive would leave more suspects for town to lynch towards.

Keep in mind that if we lynch a Mafia today, the werewolves could win by the end of tomorrow. However, if we lynch a werewolf today, the earliest scum of any faction could win is at the end of day 5. Personally, I don't want to go to MyLo (mislynch being anybody apart from a werewolf) tomorrow.

[Wickedestjr]

@HezLucky- Why do you think zMM is a werewolf as opposed to evil sheep?

[Wickedestjr]

1. I will be looking back but why don't you disagree with the havingfitz vote? I know you aren't voting for him yourself ... did you find sloth scummy?
2. Please outline why you disagree with my 542 statements. I'd love to see what in it you have issues with.

1. Yes, I found Sloth suspicious. havingfitz hasn't really done much to change that read (he hasn't strengthened the suspicion, but, at the same time, he hasn't done/said anything to change my mind about the slot, but I still need to read the last page).
2. a.) The points you bring up against DK in that post seem really weak.
b.) While I also suspect Sloth, I completely disagree that the LynchMePls death is indicative of Sloth being scum. I also have issue with your reasoning:

But in this set-up (known roles) there is one strong reason for the Werewolves to kill anyone after the Seer is dead – they are the greatest threat them. With that in mind I would guess that the bottom of LMP’s scum list is very likely to contain a Wolf.

First of all, as you even acknowledged, this is WIFOM. Secondly, (considering the possibility where Sloth is werewolf) then suspecting Slothscum doesn't necessarily make LynchMePls the biggest threat to Slothscum and his partner. There

are

other options for nightkills: the most pro-town players or players that haven't attracted a lot of suspicion and the mafia (who, from the werewolves' perspective, act as a mason group). Question: Would this point against Sloth be valid in any other mafia game? Or do you think it is especially valid because this is a Jungle Republic?

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: Just to be clear, when I say mason group I mean two players that know each other to not be werewolves.

[Wickedestjr]

Spoiler: zMuffinMan

a.) It wasn't something I had realized you were guilty of until you made a post in which you commented on a point against Empking without giving your read on him.
b.) There is a difference between the point I'm using against you and the point you're using against me. You could easily notice my reasons for believing neil vs. Empking was town vs. town just by reading the thread. Not noticing that you hadn't given your opinion on either of them was something that required an iso read.
c.) My point against you was stronger the later it was brought up.

a) It wasn't something I was guilty of full-stop. I was null on that argument, and I explained why.
b) Convenient excuse.
c) No.

a.) Irrelevant (Hint: I've already conceded that point). I'm no longer trying to prove that the point is valid. I'm explaining why it took me so long to notice it in the first place.
b.) It's not a convenient excuse. Once again you have avoided addressing my argument and have, instead, insisted that you are right. The point against me was something you could have easily noticed simply from reading the thread. The point against you was something that required me to do an iso read. Otherwise, you can't expect me to remember what everybody's stances are off the top of my head.
c.)

Once again you have avoided addressing my argument and have, instead, insisted that you are right.

I don't see how you could possibly disagree with this point.

Your defense (or lack thereof) only strengthens my opinion that my argument against you is valid. If it wasn't then you would be capable of defending yourself. You are scum and you're not good at hiding it.

I brought up meta after making a case on him because I decided to look into his meta to see if I could find anything that would help. The only two games I found at the time were one completed game he flipped town and another ongoing game he flipped town. I looked at them, his playstyle was vastly different to these games, so I mentioned it.

It was never a part of my case against him, but I do think the fact he is playing differently to his town meta, on top of my case, is good circumstantial evidence.

Can you link me to the two games please?

Do you actually have a problem with this, or are you just trying way too hard to discredit anything you can about my case on Hez?

Yes, I have a problem with it. I don't see how you can consider meta 'good circumstantial evidence' when you don't have any scum meta for comparison.

Well, that way the real seer wouldn't have to out himself without a result (had Empking not been the real seer). I'm not saying I agree with MoI's plan (I didn't), but there was no scum motivation in his suggestion, and you calling it suspicious is a joke.

For the record, we didn't need the real seer to claim immediately. They could have claimed at a designated massclaim time or we could've lynched Empkingscum when the seer died. I do believe that MoI's suggestion was suspicious and I've explained why. But tell me. Why do YOU disagree with the plan?

Also, by 'a joke' do you mean suspicious?

Another quote I don't want to go unnoticed:

The scum motivation isn't in you lying

, although there's no town motivation there either. The scum motivation is in you pushing a baseless point against me.

This is a blatant lie. Here you say:

What happened was you brought up a really old post and said you had a problem with it. I asked why you didn't mention it earlier. You said you did. I called bullshit because you didn't.

So no, I'm not attacking you for an old post,

I'm attacking you for lying about what you said you did.

Why have you been attacking me for lying if you don't think there is any scum motivation for it?

[Wickedestjr]

Claim: Vanilla Town

I did

NOT

see that coming.

@Wicked -

3.

The comments in line 263 were my summary of Magna's post 263. I was not calling DK a policy lynch, Magna was.
1. I didn't think it needed comment. Looking back on it I don't see the posts you compare being equal. DK appears to be leading town away from looking for scum on a cj wagon while I am essentially saying that I could be wrong in my top four scum suspects. Which I think is a perfectly normal rationale for anyone who does not possess ESP or a cheat sheet from the mod.
2. I don't know. I haven't considered whether it is in their best interests to find mafia or not. I hope they pursue and hit mafia.

1. What did you mean when you said 'way to commit', then?
2. -
3. I understand that. I still think it seems odd how you would discredit MoI's suspicion of DK despite you voting/suspecting him.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, havingfitz, why do you think DK and neil are werewolves and not mafia?

[Wickedestjr]

Perhaps I misphrased it, it's not soley the inclusion of reads that 'screamed town' it was your entire attitude with how you used those reads.

I got a different impression from the post in question:

1. WickedJestrs

post with his reads

screams town here, mafia generally attempt to avoid stating certain thoughts on other players as it cuts down possible future mslynches.

And your reasoning here clearly didn't have anything to do with my attitude towards how I used those reads.

1 isn't wifom at all, there's minimal for a sheep to gain out of an act like that whereas a lot to lose

I disagree. Getting a scum lynched doesn't necessarily make you a good nightkill target. I would like you to check out this game. I was mafia in this game, and in less than 10 pages into the game (from memory), a hydra called Merkabah nailed two of my scumbuddies. Neither of those two players were able to survive to the end of day 2 and it was pretty obvious Merkabah was town (at least from my scumgroup's perspective). However, despite Merkabah making himself appear so pro-town, our scumgroup NEVER killed him. He survived to night 5 until the SK killed him. The reasons for keeping him included:
1. They didn't suspect any of the remaining members of our scumgroup- they were essentially a powerful hydra on the wrong track which I believe resulted in the day 3 mislynch.
2. WIFOM purposes. I, myself, suggested in the scum QT that we might like to keep the slot alive to make people wonder why they were still alive.
Both of these reasons apply to this game and the game I linked is only one example of scum not killing somebody who nailed scum from their group.

Right now it's much easier to scumhunt via using PoE and explaining your town-reads, therefore understanding what your town-reads are better helps me understand who you suspect.

Good answer. Okay, my two strongest town reads: DK and MoI. DK because nothing he's done looks scum motivated and I dislike how much support there has been for his lynch despite not seeing any compelling points and because he just looks like an easy target. MoI is town because he looks like he's trying to figure things out and doesn't seem to care what others think about him. I also have yet to see any good evidence against him.

To be honest, I need to do a lot more reading into it because the context is vague, first impression is the defence of 'a link is a link' is extremely weak reasoning and doesn't help explain anything.

I summarized the situation in the same post I asked you to comment.

[Wickedestjr]

Finally Having’s DK vote Day 3 comes at a time when the following a wagons are established –

neil1113 (3) - Regfan, Wickedestjr, DK
HezLucky (1) - zMuffinMan
havingfitz (1) - MagnaofIllusion
MagnaofIllusion (1) – HezLucky

If Neil was a real scum read for havingfitz I would assume he would be more likely to support an active wagon on Neil than trying to start a new one on DK.

Possible link between Neil and the slot noted.

I actually really like this point. Not only did havingfitz call neil scum, but he called neil a Werewolf- the group we're more interested in hunting, currently. Furthermore, the connection he found involving DK and neil was in a post from

neil

. So, it is odd that he would vote DK instead. And also, ftr, I don't think havingfitz has really justified any of his suspicions with strong evidence. I'm actually pretty sure that slot is scum after considering this point.

I haven't read all of page 26 yet, but I think finding the scum is a priority. I noticed this question:

Do you think neil is a werewolf or mafia? And why?

At the moment, I have no idea. When I voted him earlier it was mostly because he was the player I was most certain was scum. I don't want to lynch him yet, though, until I figure out which group he's on (I've been playing catchup this whole day). So, for that reason, I'm going to

Unvote

, because I don't want anybody to hammer just yet. At least not until I get a chance to figure out which group neil's on.

[Wickedestjr]

After reading cjdrum in isolation, I noticed this again:

Neil's been posting an awful lot. Empking's been posting an awful lot. I don't think they're both Town (I mean... So much interaction between scum is ridiculous).

Neil: What do you

really

think of Empking?

I don't really see the massivest case against either of you, and I can't lean either way just yet. I'm inclined to say Empking, but that's probably because of the votes on him. Then I feel like saying you, but can't find heeeeaaaaps of scumminess.

The bolded question really looks like cjdrum knows neil1113 is scum. He says 'what do you actually think of Empking' as if he has reason to believe neil is lying about his read, despite making it clear he suspects Empking more than neil1113. Note that he didn't ask this question to Empking regarding neil, despite supposedly suspecting him more. Thoughts?

In addition, neil's L-1 vote also looks like bussing:

I'll go ahead and UNVOTE: and VOTE: Cjdrum. Now he's at L-1. Either way I look at it, CJ turns out to be scum in the possibilities above. Poor CJ, having Lynch as his partner kind of threw him under the bus nonchalantly...

Despite making no mention of cjdrum prior to this post (that I can find), neil1113 acts as if it was obvious to him that cjdrum was scum. The confidence in his read looks like he knows cjdrum's allignment and the confidence in putting cjdrum at L-1 looks like he knows he won't get any suspicion for it because of knowledge that cjdrum will flip scum.

TL;DR
I'm actually starting to believe neil is mafia instead of a werewolf. Thoughts on this?

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: Unfortunately, I'm going to be V/LA this weekend. Very limited access Friday, no access Saturday, and slightly limited access Sunday.

[Wickedestjr]

Two things:
1. I think I'm going to

Vote: havingfitz

. I suspect him almost as much as I suspect neil, but I think HF's more likely to be a Werewolf.
2. I'm starting to think Regfan is mafia.

More later...

[Wickedestjr]

There's nothing to defend there because your attack has no merit.

Okay... why not defend yourself by explaining why my attack has no merit?

Where is your argument for me being scum there, now that you've 'conceded' the original argument?

The reasons I still suspect you:
1. The 'links' you've pointed out connecting HezLucky and I revolve around very weak/invalid reasoning.
2. In response to several/most of my arguments you have dismissed them as false without explaining why.
3. On day 1, once I made it clear I was convinced in my points against you, you attacked me over something that I had said a while ago. Furthermore, you tried to, with invalid reasoning, make me look hypocritical for this attack instead of defending yourself.
4. You are guilty of a lot of IIoA and misrep.
5. You tried to use meta to support your case against a person when that player has never been scum.
6. You are guilty of several inconsistencies.

Talked about them here

In the game you linked, there weren't a lot of walls posted. Not a good choice for comparison. Strengthens my last point against you above.

Because there was a slight possibility that werewolves would gambit and keep him alive until D2 (if they thought Emp had a low chance of hitting a werewolf).

Then why the heck were you arguing with me? Earlier you said this:

It was perfectly logical, because only a VI-werewolf or a really-arrogant-werewolf would let the seer get a check off. Gambling like that isn't worth it just on the off-chance that you may be able to push a lynch on him the next day.

+Scumpoints for this blatant inconsistency.

@Everybody else- Thoughts on this inconsistency?

Because it's a lie that you were using to push a baseless point against me. The lie in itself wasn't scummy; the fact you were lying while trying to use it against me is.

This is BS and it makes no sense. I've caught you. This is inconsistent with what you said earlier:

What happened was you brought up a really old post and said you had a problem with it. I asked why you didn't mention it earlier. You said you did. I called bullshit because you didn't.

So no, I'm not attacking you for an old post,

I'm attacking you for lying about what you said you did.

[Wickedestjr]

Havingfitz’s reaction to the prod in 597 is suspect.

Explain.

Why should the real Seer counterclaim Day 2 if they don’t have a Guilty. If they do sure. Otherwise it’s outing themselves for no reason.

As I have addressed – you can’t provide a realistic scenario where a claimed Seer survives where they are not a Wolf. In fact in this game Empking, who played very scummy Day 1 and could have been a viable lynch had he not scanned a Wolf, was not left alive on the ‘off-chance’ he didn’t hit a Wolf or was fake-claiming Mafia.'

The real seer wouldn't have had to counterclaim day 2. They would counterclaim when it was massclaim time or if they caught both werewolves. Also, the seer might not have ever had to claim. Their death would have confirmed Empking was lying. Also, you are ignoring the game I linked. I'm not saying it's likely Empking would survive, but my point is that it wasn't 100% guaranteed that the werewolves would see him as the best option for a kill.

I wanted to see DK’s reaction to further direct pressure. His backing off to my questioning and vote aligns with my ‘DK is probably scum’ theory.

Then why did you switch your vote?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm back. Don't have time for a post now, but will try to make one tomorrow.

[Wickedestjr]

1. It's what came to my mind when I read that post. I was not trying to prove a math theorem when I made the comment. I found it slightly suspect for what I stated above.

1. When you said 'way to commit' were you trying to say that you found DK's stance to be a weak one?

Also, havingfitz, why do you think DK and neil are werewolves and not mafia?

The VCA.

I don't see where you explained how neil and DK are werewolves as opposed to mafia. Can you quote what you said earlier that made you believe DK and neil were werewolves instead of mafia?

They're mostly a regurgitation of the reasons I stated earlier today.

I assume you're talking about my reasons for thinking neil is scum. Am I right?

[Wickedestjr]

I haven't gotten much time to spend on this game, but I completely agree with Umbrage that we aren't going anywhere.

So, I'm going to

Unvote. Vote: neil1113

. There seems to be a lot more interest in lynching him than there is in lynching havingfitz and I think DK is town. While I beleive that neil1113 is more likely to be mafia than werewolf, this is still a good lynch because I believe he's most likely to not be town and I think we get more information from this lynch.

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry, I haven't been posting much recently. I've been pretty busy and, admittedly, kind of lost interest in the game (but that should change once we have two more flips to think about tomorrow).

havingfitz, I thought I remembered you saying you thought DK and neil were the werewolves. Now neil is at L-1 and you vote Magna? What gives?

I need to take a quick look at the MoI bandwagon.

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: What happens if a majority hasn't been reached? No-lynch?

... because it looks like this will end in a no-lynch unless

havingfitz[/b] switches his vote to neil: HF is the only player that seems to have expressed any support of the bandwagon he isn't currently on.

havingfitz, you said you believed neil was a Werewolf (with DK). Would you rather this day end in a no-lynch or a neil lynch?

[Wickedestjr]

BAH!!! Go town!

Oh. Game's over. I'll try to post my thoughts soon...

[Wickedestjr]

Congratulations to Regfan and Havingfitz! Well played.

Firstly:

Alright. I'm not finished catching up, but I have work to do. So, here are my thoughts:

LynchMePls - Scum. Didn't like the catchup post.
Regfan - Town.
DeityKabuto - Town.
HezLucky - Neutral. (Looks a little bit better after reading his last big post in day 1.)

cjdrum - Scum.

MagnaofIllusion - Town.

neil1113 - Neutral/Scum (His reaction to my suspicion of him looks a little bit townish, but there are still a few questions I need answered.
Sloth - Scum.
zMuffinMan - Neutral/Scum

I'd like to read my scumspects in ISO later as well.

I was pretty close. And I even thought Regfan was the last scum after LMP flipped scum. I really wish I had had more time near the end of the game to create a case, though. I had a pretty good idea of who the scum were, but had no idea who was in which group (which was why I kept switching my vote from neil to havingfitz). I noticed a possible Regfan-neil connection and later a Regfan-zMM connection, but never did I suspect that Regfan and havingfitz were scumbuddies. Regfan's suspicion of Sloth and, later, the arguments between him and havingfitz, which looked pretty natural, both threw me off track.

I think that the Werewolves definitely outplayed the town this game. However, after playing this game, I still think that Jungle Republic is a very difficult setup to win in as town. Town has to be consistently on the right track and can't afford more than one mislynch without having to rely on the werewolves nightkilling one or two of the mafia members. However, the problem with this is that once we lynched one of the mafia members, werewolves had hardly any incentive to get rid of the other group (which was evident in this game). So, in hindsight, I think the optimal strategy for town in this setup is to start by going after werewolves. But determining which group scum are in without any scumflips is a challenge. I also think that finding

any

scum is slightly more challenging in this game, because the scum

are

scumhunting- they are just hunting for the opposite group. For example, despite suspecting Regfan, zMM, and havingfitz on D3, I could tell, or at least thought, they were all trying to scumhunt. It doesn't really help if there's just a single powerrole which could easily die early in the game (which happened in this case), before they told us their results, or after they revealed a scum result. I like the idea of having a deputy or backup seer, but I still think the town would need more.

Even if the game wasn't perfectly balanced, I still agree that town played pretty poorly. Firstly, while the town was incorrect to suspect Empking, I still think that Empking should take some of the blame for this loss. As a seer, the only powerrole in a Jungle Republic, getting into a serious argument in the first few pages of the game and attracting so much attention isn't the optimal strategy. Seers are only beneficial if they survive through a few nights, but if they are outed on day 1, that leaves the town in a really tough situation. Secondly, I never saw the cases against Empking, DK, MoI, or HL. I thought that pretty poor points were pushed against them. But maybe that's just me.

Oh well. I still enjoyed this game and that's really what matters. Umbrage, thanks for an excellent game!

[Wickedestjr]

Thanks. To be completely honest, suspecting you was partially due to your predecessor's play in addition to POE (with the exception of my town read on Regfan earlier, all of my strong town reads were correct) which is pretty good evidence on its own since half the players were scum. Getting a read on you would have been more difficult if you had been playing from the start and if there were less scum.