Mini 1159 - Powerrox93's Mini Normal I (Game Over)

[Uncle Pain]

(I’m ignoring the cross-posting, been writing this one for long enough now)

StefanB

: Can you please calm down? Me=Weird attacks you in an in-game way, he addresses your posts and interprets them as scummy. This is totally normal and you shouldn’t get angry about it, it’s part of Mafia Scum. If you don’t agree with his views, that’s also totally okay… but please defend and attack in non-personal, game-effective ways. By the way, as far as I see it, you have three votes on you. In numbers: 3. This means you’re at L-4. You’re not even half-way through to a lynch. Then why in the world are you so crazy about giving up the game or being lynched?
On a side note: If you’re convinced you’re town, don’t

tell

us that you are but

show

us.

Regarding your recent play, I find a few things odd:

• panicking and appealing to our emotion while being at L-4 (#105, #121)
  
• taking on the candy thing from page 1 for no apparent reason (#107)
  
• seems to be very convinced of Jase not being scum (#102)

Hence I’d like you (StefanB) to explain: Why are you panicking at L-4? Which clues do you really see in the candy thing? What makes you so sure that Jase can’t be scum?

My post was totally out of character for my person, heh. I'm just fed up with trying to make sense of the foolishness that was happening prior to that post. I came off of a hard day at work, sat down to read yet again - and the idiocy overwhelmed me and my anger leftover from work poured into my text. I'm the most tolerant person you'll find. My apologies to the thread, but can we clean up the thread a little?

It’s nice of you to pay attention to my notes so closely. Actually they were addressed to all of us, not just you. The part regarding being more tolerant towards non-native English speakers was in fact directed at those who were confused/irritated by the argument beforehand. I mean, it doesn’t even make sense to criticise you when you are the one I’m trying to defend.

Furthermore, I’d also like [L] to answer this one:

when in god's name did I make a post that suggested I know the lay of the land, and why wouldn't you mention it sooner then now?

imaginality

: A beautiful case you’ve built here. Can you point out where you found andrew94 particularly scummy? What convinces you that StefanB is not a VI?

andrew94

: Do I understand you correctly that you suspect StefanB and Surprise_Carcinogen most?

Zdenek

: What’s your stance on StefanB?

crazypianist1116

: Lurking is bad. Don’t do it.

Last but not least, since tarsonisocelot and yabbaguy have already posted since my last post (#91) but haven’t addressed my questions, I’d like to repeat them:

tarsonisocelot

: What do you think about the bandwagons on yabbaguy and Jase? Are they justified?

yabbaguy

: What information have you gained from your first post and the reactions to it?

[-L-]

It was a false statement.

[Uncle Pain]

It was a false statement.

Then what made you say it?

[Zdenek]

I thought this was wrong when I read it:

Surprise_carcinogen has made posts that hint that he knows the lay of the land, . . .

and it turns out I was right

It was a false statement.

This was a misrepresentation of SC, for the purpose of attacking him, which is quite scummy. Especially considering that SC was coming under some pressure at the time.

Unvote
Vote [L]

I think lay of the land stand for you knowing how to play mafia (lay=law?), hope that helps.
At last that's what I get from the post.

Please don't answer questions for others. This time it's not a big deal.

StefanB, my point from before that you are arguing about was that for you take time to defend asking rhetorical questions was contributing, but not scum hunting. It's right there in the post.

Zdenek: What’s your stance on StefanB?

My read on him is null. The only things that I find in his play at the moment that I think are telling are his reactions to the votes on him, and my feelings about them are split. Looking at the threads he's participated in, my impression is that he's played in enough games that he should know better than to react like this to a few votes. Just to be clear, I have not examined his play in other games at all. On the one hand, I think there are some reasonable points that can be made against him: his responses to accusations feel over defensive, and he is definitely using appeals to emotion. However, his frustration reads as genuine, and he's continued to give his opinions on people.

[Jase]

L: Same as above. You've been ignoring the entire Jase wagon. First, Why? Second, want opinion etc.

Jase: My opinion on your wagon is that it rose out of nothing and sits there, being piled on, for no valid, logical reasons. I do not see a reason to place my vote there. Not only that, but my intuition was telling me you aren't it.

I don't like this bit. Intuition or no, saying that the case against me was completely illogical and invalid strikes me as odd. I made a number of pretty clear tells. What were the specific points you think were invalid, and why do you think so?

[Jase]

Very Suspicious:
Uncle Pain
Jase
Carcinogen

Jase:

Imaginality: Oh sorry should I be voting Yabba?

I'll set this right with a quick
Unvote
vote: Yabba

I'm so glad you're watching out for me!

READ: Oh sorry I'm being scummy? Let me sheep this vote so I look better in everyone's eyes without explaining my actions at all!
The Uncle Pain vote makes looks like he's just trying to get off of the yabbaguy case and attack an easy target.

Carcinogen: The Jase vote looks opportunistic. By his logic, bad players say they're good. Thus Jase saying he's a good player is neither a scumtell nor nulltell, but a bad player tell. Further he hasn't don't much in terms of content. His defense against zdenek calling him lurkish is more lack of content and trying to say zdenek has not done any scum hunting when he has.

Crazypianist accuses me of something that's extremely scummy. Then turns around and calls SCs suspicions of me opportunistic. If he really believed my that my intentions were as he said why didn't he vote for me (Why didn't you)? Also what's the difference between your suspicion and Surprise_Carcinogens?

[Me=Weird]

@stefan #113: Everything you do is not scummy, I mentioned the quote buttons to help you. Can you please stop taking everything so personally?
#120: First question: Yes, but irrelevant. Second question: Not really. Mostly what you did was explain what active lurking is. It can be done in one post. Third question is wrong. First question is irrelevant because my point isn't about active lurking, but that he said your defense, not the rhetorical question, was scummy.

Defending myself I will only do against scummyattackers, because I am long past the time that slot is even considered posible town.

This is bad, probably scum trying to earn cred by not going against townish people. Defending yourself is okay, even against townish people.

Replacement is out of the question, nobody should have to play the game with the slot.

Who is this about?

I still belive the Me=Weird is scum, such he is not even trying to understand my posts. Hell, it feels like he is skimming them.
imaginality feels completly honest in pushing my waggon, Me=Weird does not a bit.

I am trying to understand your posts. Where do you think I'm skimming them? And why don't I feel honest?

Everybody is not tunneling on you. Me, imaginality and kinda andrew are the only ones really attacking you? I realize that I have a tunneling problem, and am trying to change that. But town tunnel as well as scum, so I'm not sure why you're taking at as such a serious scumtell?


New reads: I can see Jase as town, but adding crazypianist to scumlist. The way he was sarcastic seems like how scum would be, general scumvibes, plus the way once stefan got attacked, he completely lurked off, could be scum scared by their partner getting caught and not wanting to do anything scummy. Speaking of which,

Request prod on crazypianist.

[andrew94]

1-2 days v/la

[-L-]

@jase: Just because I made one false statement does not make all of my statements false. The wagon was built up out of all the crap that was a headache to read in the first 3-4 pages. Everything was illogical. It's as simple as that. People were hemming and hawing over semantics and fluff, nothing was being focused on.

My reasoning for making such an obviously false statement was to goad surprise carcinogen.

Anyone else find me suspicious? I'm waiting.

[Powerrox93]

Mist7676 replaces GroupThink

Request prod on crazypianist.

Sent out

1-2 days v/la

Noted

[Mist7676]

Posts 79 and 84 have swung me around on Jase. I can buy that he was reaction-fishing, and he's making good use of the reactions (or lack thereof) for scumhunting. So

Unvote

StefanB is my current scummiest read.

Vote: StefanB

Factors include:

I exspect him to answer why he did it, which gives imformation on yabbaguy, so I don't think that was completly usless, beside it was part of my reason for voting yabba so for me not completly usless

Not sure why he needed to vote him to ask him a question? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I would translate this as blablabla.
No real reason given, interesting.

This is gut but the 'interesting' sounds weaselly to me. Calling it scummy without saying it outright.

You reacted, your reaction doesn't read town, it reads scum, liking my vote.

Never explained why yabba's reaction 'reads scum'. And "I know of the danger of tunneling, but I like my vote on you." is a bit suspiciously pre-emptive.

Unvote

Yes I have gotten over emotion.

Interesting that the timing of this comes after yabbaguy's unvoted StefanB (calling him a tunnelling townie) and after crazypianist1116 said about StefanB, "The case for yabbaguy makes no sense whatsoever." I could see, if StefanB is scum, how he would think this was a good point to back down from his yabbaguy vote and use the tunnelling excuse.

Rest of this post is also bad. The defense/argument with Zdenek about active lurking seems antsy and jumpy rather than calm. There's a bit of fluffy not-doing-much stuff (e.g. asking GroupThink to say more, commenting that Me=Weird? is V/LA, asking why Uncle Pain doesn't want an avatar). But the really bad bit is:

I don't think [yabbaguy] is sure town, no, but there are people who are more suspicios.

Coming in the post where StefanB has just unvoted yabbaguy, this is plain scummy. If you think someone is more suspicious, name them and vote for them, please.

It's also a conveniently neutral stance on yabbaguy - "I don't think he's sure town" implying you think he's somewhat town, "there are people who are more suspicious" implying you still suspect him somewhat. I read that as scum wanting to keep suspicion on as many players as possible.

I'm doing my read and am currently on this post. I will comment later because I have to go now. Just doing my hellos!

Hey UnclePain! Thanks for playing in that newbie with me and hammering me
Hey Imaginality. Thanks for replacing into Time Travel for me. Do good with that spot!
Hey andrew! Nice to see you again!

[Powerrox93]

Votecount 1.10

Updated as of post #135

Uncle Pain (3) - Jase, crazypianist1116, Mist7676
StefanB (3) - imaginality, Me=Weird, andrew94
[L] (2) - tarsonisocelot, Zdenek
Surprise_Carcinogen (1) - yabbaguy
Jase (1) - Uncle Pain
Me=Weird (1) - StefanB

Not voting (2) - Surprise_Carcinogen, [L]

If there's a mistake let me know.
13 Alive == 7 to Lynch && 7 to No-Lynch

Uncle Pain

will be lynched at deadline if votes doesn't change

V/LA

andrew94: Until April 30
StefanB: April 30 - May 1
Powerrox93: May 12 - 15. Back-up mod Empking will look over the game while I'm away

Deadline

May 14 06:00 CEST

[Mist7676]

Unvote

[crazypianist1116]

Hey guys. My apologies for not posting. I've been really busy with Easter stuff and schoolwork is beginning to get really overwhelming. I'll try and keep up with reading as I can, and I'll devote part of my weekend to just mafia. I know I'm pretty far behind, so assume my stuff has the "at that time" qualifier.

@S_C: #62: I was suspicious of you because bad player=/=scum. Further zdenek pointed out suspicious things in 55.

@Jase: #63 & #64: How was I stealing your shtick? Also, I called you on sheeping because 37 looked like you voted merely to satisfy imaginality rather than because you yourself supported the vote.

@StefanB: #70(specifically where you responded to me): You had originally fussed about how yabba is "Best IC" and I assumed you were voting him because he didn't act like "Best IC." I just don't see how this is justification for a vote, though.

@Uncle Pain: #71: Now this is a very interesting post! You do realize that in your posts before this, you gave nothing at all similar to this reasoning. That was why I voted you. While I generally don't like backtracking, I'll let it slide since it's early in the game and will accordingly
UNVOTE: Uncle Pain

@Me=Weird: How did I make the bottom of your null/undecided list in #72, or were these in no particular order?

Post #88 reeks of hypocrisy.

Post #91 lacks views on other players apart from Jase; this is starting to become consistent.

@Zdenek: #93: You commented on one of the first posts page 1. Further my post was very early on page one, while yours was the second to last.

Post #102 reads very scummy to me. Rather then criticizing reasoning, he just backs up his votes with unsupported statements. The defense of it in #105 reads as if he's either twisting zdenek's words or misinterpreting them.

Quoted for Truth:

@Mod:

You are being VERY strict. I encourage you to look at the ruleset much more holistically and look into the intent as to why each rule exists. I fear that at this rate, we are going to have game-wrecking modkills based on loopholes.

I'll leave it at that, and I have no intention of arguing this further.

Hey Andrew, since you skim walls, this one's for you:

Post #114 looks like wagonhopping so badly.

Post #120: OK StefanB

is

misinterpreting zdenek. Stefan, zdenek was trying to say that you defending rhetorical questions is scummy. He was not trying to say that you were actively lurking. What he did say however, was that your defense to his accusation was active lurking. If you don't understand the difference between what zdenek is saying and what you are trying to defend, then ask me, and I'll try to explain it better.
I don't see this specific point as scummy as it looks like a genuine misinterpretation.

I'll read more in depth into 122 when I get the time.

Post #125: Very helpful post. Who are your scum reads, Uncle Pain?

Very Suspicious:
Uncle Pain
Jase
Carcinogen

Jase:

Imaginality: Oh sorry should I be voting Yabba?

I'll set this right with a quick
Unvote
vote: Yabba

I'm so glad you're watching out for me!

READ: Oh sorry I'm being scummy? Let me sheep this vote so I look better in everyone's eyes without explaining my actions at all!
The Uncle Pain vote makes looks like he's just trying to get off of the yabbaguy case and attack an easy target.

Carcinogen: The Jase vote looks opportunistic.

By his logic, bad players say they're good. Thus Jase saying he's a good player is neither a scumtell nor nulltell, but a bad player tell.

Further he hasn't don't much in terms of content. His defense against zdenek calling him lurkish is more lack of content and trying to say zdenek has not done any scum hunting when he has.

Crazypianist accuses me of something that's extremely scummy. Then turns around and calls SCs suspicions of me opportunistic. If he really believed my that my intentions were as he said why didn't he vote for me (Why didn't you)? Also what's the difference between your suspicion and Surprise_Carcinogens?

This came out of nowhere! You've had almost 3 pages to say this yet you wait till now? Scummy. I didn't vote you because I voted Uncle Pain at the time. That much should be obvious. S_C's suspicion looked opportunistic (i.e. "Here's my chance to push a lynch of a townie"). You even quoted my reasoning for not liking the vote (bolded above).

New reads: I can see Jase as town, but adding crazypianist to scumlist. The way he was sarcastic seems like how scum would be, general scumvibes, plus the way once stefan got attacked, he completely lurked off, could be scum scared by their partner getting caught and not wanting to do anything scummy.

Sarcasm and lurking are great scumtells! Especially when I wasn't posting elsewhere on the site.

VOTE: [L]
She's been doing a ton of talking without throwing around suspicion at all. This is particularly scummy behavior. The vote was useless essentially the entire game as it hasn't really been accompanied by much pressure and the unvote came out of nowhere. Also on my scumlist (in no particular order) are Jase, andrew94, Surprise_Carcinogen, and StefanB.

Tl; dr: Go up to Jase's quote.

[tarsonisocelot]

unvote

Why unvote me if you think I'm scum? You haven't said anything about me since

TO, on the other hand, has had a laid back affect, casually throwing out questions. From that first [second?] day, she set off my alarm bells. I voted her promptly - and I am just watching her for more confirmation, which she has been providing.

Also that thing about alarm bells being rung on the first page was the ridiculous "Good morning" thing you called suspicious when you voted.
The only other thing you've said about me is that my posts are pointless.

What did I do to make you decide to unvote?
It must have been something specific to me because you have yet to vote for anyone else.

Please vote for the person you find most suspicious and why.

[tarsonisocelot]

tarsonisocelot

: What do you think about the bandwagons on yabbaguy and Jase? Are they justified?

I think that the yabbaguy wagon was basically requested by yabba in his first post. I don't think it's a particularly good one but I can see some townies following the reasoning given for the vote.

Jase's wagon was well justified at the time it formed. he has since started posting more useful less weird posts so I don't think that continuing to target him is needed or good for town.



[L] I think is scum.
Haven't thought about partners for them yet.

[Uncle Pain]

(ignoring the cross-posting once again)

Heh, hi Mist7676, didn’t think we’d meet so soon again.

New reads: I can see Jase as town, but adding crazypianist to scumlist. The way he was sarcastic seems like how scum would be, general scumvibes, plus the way once stefan got attacked, he completely lurked off, could be scum scared by their partner getting caught and not wanting to do anything scummy.

Very interesting, I had the scared scum thought as well but to be honest nothing to back it up. It was rather a gut feeling. Do you see anything about crazypianist1116 that supports your hunch?

My reasoning for making such an obviously false statement was to goad surprise carcinogen.

Aw come on, what is this? First yabbaguy, then Jase, now [L]: you do a scummy mistake and later say “it was all planned to fish for reactions”. I’m sorry guys but this is just a tad too convenient. As much as I see that creating discussion is a valid townie move, I find baiting someone (or anyone) rather scummy because we townies don’t need to pull such tricks to find scum, plus it confuses town. The problem I see for myself here is that I don’t know how to evaluate this in terms of suspicion. I gotta admit that [L]’s trick looks the strangest. Not only because it looks the least planned and most retroactively justified of the three but also since she tried to particularly goad Surprise_Carcinogen. [L], do you have an actual case against him? As far as I see it, you dislike his statements about mafia theory and that’s it…

Post #91 lacks views on other players apart from Jase; this is starting to become consistent.

What do you mean? Do you think I’m tunneling on Jase and keep doing it?

Which brings me to…

Who are your scum reads, Uncle Pain?

I actually deliberately waited with posting my own reads because I wasn’t very sure about them for a long time, hence I asked several questions to get to read you better.

My current main suspects are:

• Jase: for the oddities I stated in #71. Although it became less, he still hits my scumdar most.
  
• [L]: for her weak cases against Surprise_Carcinogen and tarsonisocelot, for a general lack of suspicions and for ignoring the bandwagons on Jase and StefanB without giving reasons.
  
• StefanB: for the oddities I stated in #125.

On the town side of my reads are mainly imaginality and Surprise_Carcinogen.

[imaginality]

imaginality: A beautiful case you’ve built here. Can you point out where you found andrew94 particularly scummy? What convinces you that StefanB is not a VI?

On StefanB:

StefanB's posts read to me more like those of a weak scum player feeling aggrieved about what he sees as being caught for the wrong reasons, rather than a weak town player. Partly that's an overall impression, a matter of his tone, but some of the contributing factors are:

(i) his over-focus on the 'active lurking'* point against him, which shifted the focus onto him originally, compared with addressing the scummy aspects of his more recent posts;
(ii) appealing to emotion and having a 'defeated' air when he's only at L-4 (the weak townies I've seen 'give up' have tended to do it when they're closer to being lynched than this, though I don't have objective stats on this - that's just been my experience)
(iii) the way in which his refusal to argue against the 'genuine' people on his wagon seems like admitting that there are good reasons to want him lynched, and his concern is just to show us why we're wrong about the active lurking thing
(iv) seeing Me=Weird's pressure as not genuine and being less concerned about andrew94's doesn't make much sense from a townie (in my opinion), but does from this 'scum caught for the wrong reason' angle, since Me=Weird is the person who's pushed the 'active lurking' point

* I'm using this as shorthand; I know the actual point is not simply active lurking.


On andrew94, I wasn't all that impressed by his earlier posts (asking questions but not appearing to properly scumhunt, or move his vote to a non-random target), but this post was what stood out to me:

about stefanb: i dont know about yabba's reaction testing, but i got the sense that he was joking about dont lynch me, then made up the 'reaction test' part after as he went along. because he had a huge 'best ic' tag underneath him, it seems impossible that you can miss that. therefore, stenfanb is scum, because town wouldnt do 'stefan's first post' to an experienced player. HE later states that he did indeed see the best ic sign, and was trying to do a reaction test. this is absolute Bs and i get the feeling that he just wanted to seem like he is doing something
therefore unvote vote stefanb

There were plenty of good reasons to join the StefanB wagon, but this feels so stretched. 'Town won't ask a player with an award a rhetorical question about a scummy opening post to see what the other player says in response.' I really, really don't think that's a sound claim. This seems like andrew94 reading "how to be scum 101" and thinking, "hmm, if I'm going to get on the wagon and not look opportunistic, I have to come up with an independent reason rather than sheep what the others said."

I don't think StefanB is any more or less likely to be town if andrew94 flips scum, since andrew94 could be opportunistically joining the wagon either to try to get a mislynch if StefanB is town or to earn townpoints for bussing if StefanB is scum. But if StefanB flips scum, iStefanB's reluctance to challenge andrew94 compared with Me=Weird points slightly towards andrew94 also being scum (with StefanB not wanting to simply shift the pressure from him onto his scumbuddy, but rather onto a townie).

Going to comment on others in my next post - I don't want to spend all my time on StefanB. But I really think we've caught scum in him.

[Mist7676]

Done with my read!

I named Jase before, but thought there was enough presure on him, so I could do somethink that helps more. My sarcastic comment at GroupThink was there.

I though at the moment of voting him, but thought this would be pointless since I didn't really exspect an answer.

BTW: Childlessly I am calling OMGOS.

You were going to vote him so you canget an answer? Just ask the question and if his answer seems scummy or doesn't reply then you vote him.

What I gather about

Players

from my read.

Yabbaguy: that first post was pretty scummy. Yes you did explain why you did that, but why does that strike as scum? Noticing you are posting out of meta people are obviously going to tell you about it.

UnclePain: very good with reads and questions. You seem like the least troubled of the town.

Jase: I understand that the first posts were RVS posts but why didn't you mention of yabbaguy being scummy if you were going to Random Vote? You could have just saved it for later.

CrazyPianist: Welcome back. Please be posting oftenly because in my eyes you seem town. That post at #138 is very good. A quick question about it. Why did you do a big wall just to frustrate andrew. Are you friends on site?

StefanB: Explain why you feel the need to Bring up something that happened on the first few posts?

I know I have freaking towncread of -1.000.000

Than please selfvote so we can get you out of the way. Mafia is about taking suspiscion, fighting them, and passing them to someone else. That post just seemed like you are giving up.

I'll do more people later for now I have to get ready for school.

Vote:StefanB

for reasons stated above.

[Uncle Pain]

I know I have freaking towncread of -1.000.000

Than please selfvote so we can get you out of the way.

I totally disagree, even if he’s scum. This is not the proper way to play or quit a Mafia Scum game, period.

Other than that, I’m curious what you (Mist7676) think of [L] and Surprise_Carcinogen.

Zdenek

: You had your vote on Surprise_Carcinogen but switched to [L] due to her false statement. Do you still suspect Surprise_Carcinogen? If yes, where do you see a connection between the two? What do you think about crazypianist1116 now that he’s posted #138?

…eagerly waiting for posts by: StefanB, andrew94, yabbaguy, Surprise_Carcinogen. Gotta love this activity overview!

[Powerrox93]

Votecount 1.11

Updated as of post #144

StefanB (4) - imaginality, Me=Weird, andrew94, Mist7676
[L] (3) - tarsonisocelot, Zdenek, crazypianist1116
Uncle Pain (1) - Jase
Surprise_Carcinogen (1) - yabbaguy
Jase (1) - Uncle Pain
Me=Weird (1) - StefanB

Not voting (2) - Surprise_Carcinogen, [L]

If there's a mistake let me know.
13 Alive == 7 to Lynch && 7 to No-Lynch

StefanB

will be lynched at deadline if votes doesn't change

V/LA

andrew94: Until April 30
StefanB: April 30 - May 1
Powerrox93: May 12 - 15. Back-up mod Empking will look over the game while I'm away

Deadline

May 14 06:00 CEST

[Mist7676]

He is saying he has no town cred. If he's just going to give up like that self-vote and save town some time.

I want going to ISO [L] and SC before I answer that.

[Jase]

@ jase, i havent mentioned a lot of people, you pull my name out of the hat as if YOUR the only person i ever ignored. my thoughts are by doing that, you are trying to make me go down with you when you flip scum.a
about your post 78, i dont understand what 'context' of exchange... wtf are u talking about, how does it relate to the quote above.

Yes, I picked you alone, COMPLETELY AT RANDOM to pester for ignoring me and (by extension) the largest wagon that's happened so far. I OBVIOUSLY did this because I am scum and I (for some fucking reason) believe that if you actually say what you think about my wagon that you'll be branded as my scumbuddy and speed lynched the day after my own INEVITABLE lynch.

THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.

Really though, I asked the same thing from everyone who hasn't commented on me or the wagon against me. There's four people in total who've been ignoring me and I somewhat doubt we're looking at that many scum in a game this size. So obviously ignoring me wasn't a huge scum tell. Of course then YOU throw out some bullshit about how I must be an idiot for calling you (not anyone else, just you) out on that or something. What's worse you THEN go on to give no information WHEN SPECIFICALLY ASKED. I'm thinking that IS a pretty substantial scumtell.
Now then, are you gonna say something about my wagon or do you still think it's some sort of nefarious trap?

My read of andrew is in the quoted post. When asked for his opinion he makes it out like I'm singling him out or something (I'm not too sure). He still absolutely refuses to answer me after he's been asked three times. I'm not sure if this is because he's scum or if he's just VI, but it may be relevant.

[Jase]

@Jase: #63 & #64: How was I stealing your shtick? Also, I called you on sheeping because 37 looked like you voted merely to satisfy imaginality rather than because you yourself supported the vote.

Very Suspicious:
Uncle Pain
Jase
Carcinogen

Jase:

Imaginality: Oh sorry should I be voting Yabba?

I'll set this right with a quick
Unvote
vote: Yabba

I'm so glad you're watching out for me!

READ: Oh sorry I'm being scummy? Let me sheep this vote so I look better in everyone's eyes without explaining my actions at all!
The Uncle Pain vote makes looks like he's just trying to get off of the yabbaguy case and attack an easy target.

Carcinogen: The Jase vote looks opportunistic.

By his logic, bad players say they're good. Thus Jase saying he's a good player is neither a scumtell nor nulltell, but a bad player tell.

Further he hasn't don't much in terms of content. His defense against zdenek calling him lurkish is more lack of content and trying to say zdenek has not done any scum hunting when he has.

Crazypianist accuses me of something that's extremely scummy. Then turns around and calls SCs suspicions of me opportunistic. If he really believed my that my intentions were as he said why didn't he vote for me (Why didn't you)? Also what's the difference between your suspicion and Surprise_Carcinogens?

This came out of nowhere! You've had almost 3 pages to say this yet you wait till now? Scummy. I didn't vote you because I voted Uncle Pain at the time. That much should be obvious. S_C's suspicion looked opportunistic (i.e. "Here's my chance to push a lynch of a townie"). You even quoted my reasoning for not liking the vote (bolded above).

First bit: "I think we should be passive aggressive and not explicitly say who we're suspicious of. Or not." That's where you stole my shtick. It was not a serious point. It was really just for my personal amusement, and it fit in with what I was doing. As for the bit about sheeping, I accept your explanation.

Second bit: I looked back and I saw it, that is a thing that happens. You say you didn't vote me because you voted Uncle Pain, but why would you vote him for something that could have been scum motivated when what you accused me of MUST have been scum motivated? It makes no sense for you not to vote me if you truly believe what you said. I'm calling BS on that. Moving right along, yes I saw your reasoning for accusing SC. Problem is you throw down some support for my wagon and then in the same breath you make an accusation for being on the wagon that you JUST supported. In general it seems like you don't want to be ON my wagon but you still want my wagon to succeed. You then use being on my wagon as points against two other players so you can call them out if my wagon DOES succeed, and YOU get to say "I told you there was something wrong with that wagon". Is that about right? Did I leave any part of that out?

[andrew94]

@unclepain yes
@crazy - wagonhopping? was i in a wagon before? i dont think so.
@imaginiary - thats my reason. pls read my games before spurting that im a vi
@jase, ill talk about it when i finish my vla