New York 131: Tricycle Mafia (Day 5)

[nhammen]

Hello. Finals week means I will be posting even less frequently than usual this coming week.
Notice, Uite declared V/LA in the replacements thread, so now everyone has confirmed.

KoC, I cannot support a V/LA bandwagon, as I am semi-V/LA myself.
Therefore,
VOTE: Knight of Cydonia

[nhammen]

Central Daylight Time
Been on site for 2 years now. Took a few breaks due to school at different times. Previous games are in the wiki.
Will post very rarely until Wednesday, due to finals, then activity will pick up. Also, as August approaches, my activity will drop precipitously due to approaching prelims (AAUUUGGGGHHHHH!!!)

[nhammen]

VOTE: Pine
Trying to shove suspicion on Thor over nothing.

This looks like scumhunting.

I don't like Pine's interrogation of Thor -- his certitude seemed pretty obviously jokey to me.

This looks like buddying and parroting.

I support this product and/or service
VOTE: Amor

Well, I dunno about that, I

am

gathering information right now... information such as the fact you made your RVS vote serious because Toon brought the nhammen wagon up to level with the only other big wagon at the time... say what you like, but bringing a wagon up to joint first sounds like being pretty serious about wagoning to me.

I agree. I expect Toon to give more info on this later, because I want to hear his explanation for this, but I can see an obvious explanation for it.

Heh, interesting point about Amor.

What does interesting mean in this context?

Well, I dunno about that, I

am

gathering information right now... information such as the fact you made your RVS vote serious because Toon brought the nhammen wagon up to level with the only other big wagon at the time... say what you like, but bringing a wagon up to joint first sounds like being pretty serious about wagoning to me.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "gathering information"? And does the last line mean you're suspicious of SZS?

Nothing about Thor's case? Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.


Also, I have to make this official, because I think I wont get a chance to post again for a while:

Mod: V/LA until Wednesday due to Finals

[nhammen]

Procrastinating on my take home final by playing Mafia. And I'm supposed to be smart...

Nothing about Thor's case? Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

It wasn't a case, it was one line without even a vote. I didn't think it was really worth a response. Maxous and I had similar observations, so what?

Anyway, we seem to be out of RVS so it's time for a real vote.

Unvote
Vote Knight of Cydonia

Mostly gut, but I don't like his lack of opinions or trying to pass off reading the thread as gathering information.

So, when you said you didn't like Pine's interrogation of Thor, you decided not to accompany that with a vote, but in the same post, mentioned another game in which RVS was over. But, you are only removing your RVS vote now? Why the long wait, when you saw something you didn't like earlier?

It was a random vote for the sake of making a random vote. At least we are getting some gameplay out of it. I know nothing about the alignment of either of them. And I didn't notice Maxous already had 2 votes on him when I voted nhammen

It was just a random vote? But you made a comment about wagoning, so it wasn't purely random (as other players have now stated). I thought you were gonna say something about wanting two bandwagons, or something similar. I used to always try to create competing bandwagons at the start of a game (can't remember the last time I did though). Since you didn't do as I expected, there may actually be something to the case presented by SubzeroSith. It looks like a bit of a stretch to me, but then again, anything in the RVS looks like a stretch. The game needs to start somewhere, and Toon's explanation isn't any explanation.

Wow, that paragraph went nowhere. I guess what I'm saying is that if you squint a little, and look at it from the right angle, Toon looks bad. I see Amor as scummy without "squinting" as much, so I'm going after him. If I didn't have Amor, I would probably be adding to the pressure on Toon.

Heh, interesting point about Amor.

What does interesting mean in this context?

As in he could well be correct.

And you didn't accompany that with a vote because... ?
Actually, I guess your vote against Pine was a serious vote, so nevermind about that line of inquiry.
But just saying interesting, and leaving it at that seems a bit too vague. Maybe intentionally vague.

@SZS: This is very flimsy, especially at this point in the game at this time of the year, but both games I've played with nhammen have been games where he was scum, and both had very similar playstyles. I'm already seeing parallels in his only three posts so far: he's lurky, but when he does post they look really townie. He was only caught in the first game because he got killed by an SK N1 - he didn't get caught in the second one.

Here's a hint about meta cases: if you want to say someone is scum because they are playing like they do as scum, you first must show that they don't play that way as town. Otherwise, your conclusion is false. So, go and check my recent town games and tell me if I have been lurky and made pro-town posts. Cuz I have something called grad school that has affected my activity. Also, too town to be town is a bad logical fallacy to be using.

However, I would like to point out, that this does look like town play coming from Wraith. This is an honest attempt to use past meta to find scum, which indicates a pro-town alignment from Wraith.

[nhammen]

Returned from V/LA.

Note: it is just before 1am here, so my post will come sometime tomorrow: probably within 12 hours, but possibly longer.
Note2: I finished my own finals, but will be grading Calculus finals all day on Friday (800+ students 11 questions each, with approximately 10 graders; pity me). Therefore, do not expect anything from me after Thurday night, until Saturday.
Note3: I have practically no commitments from Saturday until June. Hopefully, my activity will be higher than it has been for almost a year.

[nhammen]

2. Sheeping, unnecessary direction at KoC and Max and it looked like he was just trying to find a reason to keep his sheeped vote where it was.

It was a case I agreed with, so... yeah, you could say I was sheeping it. And?

I wanted to keep the Maxous wagon together for a bit longer, as it seemed to be generating discussion (i.e. the SZS/Toon argument). Pine wasn't scummy enough to get me to take my vote away from that, but KoC was.

I guess. However (this may just be paranoia speaking) it seems likely to be a post-hoc explanation.

Knight has been the most consistently scummy. Other players have made scummy posts, which I've tried to call attention to, but Knight is the only one whose gameplay as a whole is suspicious.

Right hang on now you see "gameplay" is a pretty big, nebulous word and is pretty much equivalent to "gut" here since you're not actually giving any kind of quantifier beyond "his gameplay is scummy". That's not a statement you get to make without backing it up.

Agree. Amor, what specifically are you referring to when you say his "gameplay as a whole is suspicious"?

@SZS: This is very flimsy, especially at this point in the game at this time of the year, but both games I've played with nhammen have been games where he was scum, and both had very similar playstyles. I'm already seeing parallels in his only three posts so far: he's lurky, but when he does post they look really townie. He was only caught in the first game because he got killed by an SK N1 - he didn't get caught in the second one.

Hm... If you suspect him then start a case on him.

Ummm... that's what he was doing. What more do you want? It may not be a good case, but it is an attempt at a case.

• KOC and Subzero are likely to be town.
  I think Jmurph is town.
  Ever so slightly leaning town on Wraith.
  nhammen and Mr.Zepher look like town.
  I'm unsure about Thor- I'll see after a couple of more posts.
  VERY unsure about Amor
  Pine looks slightly scummy
  Toon fighter seems like mafia - quite interested in his next post

Everybody else is null due to not having enough content to judge them by apart from:

Unvote

VOTE: Silverbullet

Looks to be active lurking.

Sigh... Town has two jobs: find scum, and convince other town that your reads are right. If you are town, then this list is an attempt at the first, but an absolute failure at the second. Try again, with explanations.

2. most recent Votecount at the time of asking (post 39)
Maxous (3) – Amor, Thor665, Nobody Special
SubzeroSith (1) – Surye
and 3 others at 1
so...
3. Learn to read vote counts.

The POST MOAR Votecount

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

nhammen (2) – Pine, Toon Fighter
Pine (1) - Wraith

(this actually became a 2 because Maxous moved right before you did)

SubzeroSith (1) – Surye (you made this a 2)
Maxous (3) – Amor, Thor665, Nobody Special[/color]

So you had 2 options to make a wagon a 3 and one to make it a 4 and you decided what was most needed was no opinion or force on those wagons and instead you'd needle at SubZero.
Why?
Also - learn to read vote counts

So, the same case as is against Toon, then. I'm starting to think this isn't as much of a tell as is assumed. However, the wagons were more noticeable at the time Silver did this, so if anyone is scum from this tell, it is more likely to be silver than Toon.



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Sorry about the slow catch up. Finals are over, so I should have more time. Although, as previously stated, will be grading all day tomorrow. More to come later.

[nhammen]

-Max

Looks to be active lurking.

yes... cause i haven't been asking questions... nor answering questions posted to me...

Only once the wagon on you started. The only questions are A) defense against Thor, and B) asking KoC to justify his coaching comment, which had already been asked.

-Thor

So you had 2 options to make a wagon a 3 and one to make it a 4 and you decided what was most needed was no opinion or force on those wagons and instead you'd needle at SubZero.
Why?

I was going Strictly by the votecount posted at the time (I'm LAZY!) I liked (or found suspicious) how Sub emphasized that his vote was "important" so to speak

The votecount posted at the time had me at 2 votes. Why didn't you vote me?

avoiding commiting himself with opinons

So I didn't find sub suspicous nor did I state this anywhere? Really now? Show me how I have no opinion of anything..

I just isoed you... and at the time of the quoted post, you have stated one extremely weak argument against Sub, and have never explained any scum motivation behind it. I didn't even realize it was a suspicion rather than a joke until the 5th or so time I read it. So... you are really failing here. Thanks for pointing this out by daring us to iso you.

If I get voted for bandwaggoning in RVS, this guy should too.

FoS: Thor

*Insert the sound of my jaw hitting the floor here*
Ok, just in case you don't know, you were voted for claiming to bandwagon, but not bandwagoning.

@Toon - You're being run up for failing at bandwagoning. I'm Charlie Sheen over here. That's the difference. Also, an FOS on a scum point you apparently disagree with? Yeah, way to look townie. (aw, crud, am I coaching again?)

Good point on his FOS. However, this seems more like bad play than scummy play to me. This may be my gut speaking...

@Nhammen: When you get back, would like to hear your thoughts on the attention being thrown on Silver, especially given the 'fake scumhunting' belief you hold about Pine.

Well, I find silver to be somewhat scummy, especially given his responses. He is on par with Amor in terms of scumminess at this point in my reread. Also, my 'what' belief about Pine?!? I have no idea what you are talking about. I even isoed myself to see if I had said something that I somehow forgot, but couldn't find what you speak of.

@SZS: It's less a "hunch" at this point in time, more of a "fool me twice, hang on me. fool me twice, hang on you" IGMEOY

But here are the games:

There Will Be Bloodshed
NY118

In my wiki, look at my 5 or so most recent games. All of them have exhibited this type of lurking, because grad school has kept me busy. Please note: in the two games you quoted, I made intentional use of this meta for lurking that I have. I was lurking AND playing to my town meta. Also note: I hope to be more active in this game, since my grad school workload will be much lighter over the Summer... hopefully.

• KOC and Subzero are likely to be town.
  I think Jmurph is town.
  Ever so slightly leaning town on Wraith.
  nhammen and Mr.Zepher look like town.
  I'm unsure about Thor- I'll see after a couple of more posts.
  VERY unsure about Amor
  Pine looks slightly scummy
  Toon fighter seems like mafia - quite interested in his next post

Everybody else is null due to not having enough content to judge them by apart from:

Unvote

VOTE: Silverbullet

Looks to be active lurking.

Don't like this post. Why make a list of reads if they're almost all going to be uncertain or couched in weak language ("looks slightly", "seems like", "I think")? This is trying to look active and content-full without taking much of a stance.

Wow! Something from Amor that I fully agree with! This is a surprising turn of events.


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[nhammen]

(unsure if his vote on SubzeroSith was random or not, just replaced in so he missed the RVS stage though)

Totally. Dead serious, in fact.
SubSith's SO Scum. Seriously.

Reasons?

@mastin2: you seem to be trying to slip under the radar easily. Also, your 3 psots so far are bs. No content, a crappy vote with no reasoning, and you want DK to make a big post, but you don't do any.

unvote, vote: mastin

I want more content out of you, fast

"Hey guys, pay me no mind, let's go after the guy who replaced in yesterday for lack of content."

No one seems to agree with me about Knight so...

Unvote
Vote: Toon Fighter

I am agreeing with Amor again!? Just a moment, I think I need to check and see how cold hell is right now.
Toon is playing so badly right now. However, my gut is saying he is dumb town, and not scum. I'm not sure how much of a pass I can give him though, as he has a 2009 join date, so should be at least decent at this game.

I've gotta be honest here...I'm almost completely stumped. I've seen no strong tells or slips from anyone, and the suspicion I have of Toon is pretty weak. Can the people with strong reads make a case or two?

Mafia 101: If you can't find scumreads, then find town reads and whoever is left must be scum.

My slight town read on Wraith was due to him suspecting nhammen due to himself perceving nhammen to be playing the exact same way he played as mafia before. I disgaree with his suspicion on nhammen but I see it as more likely that the meta suspicion would come from town Wraith rather than mafia Wraith making it up.

Yeah... There are three or four players that brought up this exact argument before you did.

Subzero asks why you were'nt questioning or commenting on anything and it was because you were waiting on an answer to this, that stopped you for looking for mafia. You were that focused on defending yourself? Do you think I am mafia or something?
All your comments and questions which you referred to were in reaction to somebody questioning and suspecting you.

What you have done is show zero initiative to find mafia and your sole focus is to defend yourself(to the point of distraction apparently).

Agree. Completely agree.

Where has Nobody Special gone? :/

Wait... he's in this game!?

That's pretty much what was worth reading in that post. It was awful. Two points you just say "why are you lying?" while spelling poorly, you don't dispute the fact that you had indeed gone paranoid about one vote in a large game, tried to discredit his points against you without giving even the tiniest shred of evidence why his points aren't valid, and tossed out an unnecessary snarky comment as a cherry on top.

You've risen almost to the top of my scum list after that vote and terrible posting. If it weren't for Maxous's points about Toon, I'd actually change my vote now.

Agree. Except about the changing vote thing: I'm doing it right now-
VOTE: silverbullet

-Sub whom I'm assuming is icey since he refuses to sign apparently
1. I've given you reasons why i'm voting you, PLEASE READ MY POSTS THIS IS NOT HARD.

Umm... you did? All I see is a "reason" that is completely devoid of reason.


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[nhammen]

Warning: incoming wall in however long it takes me to write it. Sorry for any inconvenience.

[nhammen]

I can't believe how blind you guys are.

I mean,

really.

Vote: Mastin

I know I'm not one to speak, but

this

is your first post after a 3 day absence!?! I agree with Pine's response: "Care to explain?"

Also, it has been almost a week since that post. Where are you?

@mod: Prod Nobody Special

I'd also like to direct everyone to Nothing Special's ISO.

0: Answering my questions. Fine.
1: Better than average random vote, but still not particularly good.
2: Empty.
3: "Uh wut I'm confused."
4: Worthless.
5: Almost looks like a random vote.

I've seen people do more scum hunting on page 1 than this guy has the whole game so far. Don't like it.

Agree. And note: this is still all his iso contains, almost one week later.

Just hit me.

If my VCA implicated Pine (which it did), and you're curious about my VCA this game (which implicates you)...

...Is that a scumclaim?

(This...probably makes more sense in my head than it does to anyone else, but the chain of thought is there, if you understand my wavelength of thought. )

Really mastin? Really? He is assuming that your VCA did NOT implicate Pine. That kind of play is not what I expect from you mastin. So yeah, it definitely makes more sense in your head than mine! This is one of the few non-scummy things coming from him.

On a side note, I really don't remember what you VCA indicated about Pine, and I don't really care about this particular (useless and distracting) argument to go reread that game. The point is moot.

mastin you lynch me first, if i flip town you lynch sub, if I flip scum... well you'll lynch sub anyway I hope but yeah, if I flip town you'll lynch sub anyway. Deal?

What kind of logic is this!?

I think Mastin hates me ._.

In other news:
My biggest scum reads happen to be Sub and Amor

Which now that I think about my vote is still on nhammen...
I'll double check to see if I want to keep it there...

In any case, I'd hate to use the argument "to town to be town" but Sub seems to fall into that argument. Idk. Something about the way he scumhunts doesn't sit well with me.
Silver come off as town, but ridiculous town. There's room for me to be proven wrong though.

So many things to say about this post, even if your vote had been on me:
A) You can't remember where your own vote is or why it is there? Isn't that a sign that maybe you should, I dunno, move your vote?
B) You thought your vote was on me, and thought you might prefer it to be on me than either one of the players you named as a scumread? Why does that even make sense?
C) You have to say what the something about why the way Sub scumhunts doesn't sit well with you. You can't just say something is wrong, and use that as a case.

Idk what's wrong with me @-@ sorry. But at least that explains why i wasn't sure why I thought I had my vote on nhammen....

Unvote

Also, why am I scum exactly?

Cuz you can't remember where your own vote is.
Cuz instead of voting one of the players you list as a scumread, you unvote.
Because the examples of cases you have presented so far in this game are: "scummy for whatever reason" and "doesn't sit well with me". And you don't even vote either of these cases.
Most posts in your iso give no reason for any "suspicion" you have had. There are a few. It seems that your strategy is to say someone is scummy, and then come up with reasons later.

Also, can someone explain to me the hate aimed at Subzero at the moment? I've read his ISO and I'm really not getting it.

Not getting it here either.

With Sub, the way he approaches his scum-hunting is very nit-picky, and he is very eager to discredit arguments made against him.
At least that's why he's suspect with me. I'm still wary about the other cases on him, but the way he's reacted to them thus far hasn't sat well with me.
(take the interaction with Sub vs Silver for example, and then with Mastin too.)

At this point I think I may be tunneling on you, but would you mind saying why nit-picky implies scum? Also, what about his reaction hasn't sat well with you. Stop being vague with your cases and say something concrete!

With Amor, it's mostly gut (Sub has some gut in it as well) BUT I don't like the way you take Thor's "coaching" and Maxous' 122 and blatantly misrep them.

I just isoed Amor to see what you were talking abut, because I thought that it was KoC that had problems with Thor's "coaching". Amor didn't think Thor was coaching, and I saw no misreps regarding either Thor or Maxous. Amor's criticism of Maxous is one of the few things that I agreed with him about! So, again, I'd like to know why you don't like these "misreps".

No one seems to agree with me about Knight so...

Unvote
Vote: Toon Fighter

reads as: This wagon isn't going to kick off. Let's hop onto one that'll probably go through.
Of course this assuming you're scum, which I'm not sure what the likelyhood of that is yet.
Probably somewhat likely at this time and place.

However, I do agree with this. Amor's unvote doesn't look good.

Just as a note, I'm not voting yet because I don't think they need votes on them yet, or at least not from me if that makes sense.

It doesn't. Votes don't just lead to lynches. Votes create pressure that the players on the other end are forced to react to. Votes allow us to read the person that is voting. Refusing to vote at all is anti-town.

Yes. I think my VCA nailed all the scum.

No. I don't know all the scum without flips. Because my INTERPRETATION of the VCA isn't perfect.

I made that quite clear. (I did, didn't I? I certainly thought I mentioned that at some point.)

To be honest, in TWWB, as scum, I found your VCA to be quite amusingly wrong. Your VCAs operate on too many false assumptions. Such as the horrible "scum don't want to all be on the same wagon" assumption. I specifically remember reading you saying something about that, and then looking at the votecount and seeing all of the scum on the same wagon, and laughing my ass off. If you do not account for the meta of the players in question, your VCA techniques are as useless as random lynching. Some players never vote on the same wagon as their buddies as scum, and some always do. Assuming that all players have the same meta is horribly wrong. But this is a topic for MD, so I need to stop discussing this here. It will just be a distraction.


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Yes, I intend to have another wall in a few more hours. eeep

[nhammen]

False, I voted you initially because of how important you wanted to make your initial vote.

So me feeling like a vote with real reasoning (I explained it in quite some detail) is better than a meaningless RVS vote is scummy. Hmm.

Exactly. By silver's logic, scumhunting is bad. He obviously can't mean that, even as scum, but I don't get it either...

I wouldn't be surprised if others here looked through your ISO and likewise found pointless questions that lacked scum hunting value.

Mainly because his pointless questions did lack scumhunting value.

If you have a groundbreaking point that makes or breaks a case you have that requires responding to, then yes absolutely. If you're asking nearly pointless questions that get glossed over because they have almost zero significance to the game, and then refusing to participate further until said questions are answered then you are probably scum.

Agree. With the caveat that him asking again for a response was acceptable (and also preferred). It was only the stopping everything else to focus on this that was bad.

You know, you two really aren't doing a good job of convincing me I'm wrong about the whole bussing thing.

I was about to say that this does not look like any bussing I have ever seen, but then I remembered my first scum game, and this looks kinda like the bussing in that game, so it could be. However, I would think they would do this earlier in the day if that were the case, wouldn't they? At this late stage, it practically ensures that one of them will be lynched. In any case, Sub doesn't look like scum to me.

@silver 256: why didn't you respond to the point that is the first quote in this post of mine? That is one of the biggest points against you.

Silver, on the other hand, is displaying a significant departure from the very pro-town behavior I'm used to from TWBB.

I noticed the same thing, but then was wondering if I only saw him as obv-town in TWBB because I was scum in that game. Not sure.

Sub literally just said that him answering my questions would only point more to how scummy I am and he felt that doing that wasn't even worth it.

FALSE! He said that the fact that you were forcing him to answer pointless questions was what was scummy. Although, there is no such thing as pointless questions, so I disagree with this part of the case. But, the fact that you are twisting this like this is pretty scummy.

There's no point in leaving a lone vote on one person all day while someone you find almost as scummy has a significant wagon. I had gotten as much pressure as I could out of that vote, so with a KoC wagon not seeming likely I wanted to use my vote to actually influence who gets lynched. This isn't that hard to understand -- your last line suggests that you know there's more to voting than just putting a vote down on your #1 suspect.

OK, that logic is ok, and I have used it as town before.

Agree. Amor, what specifically are you referring to when you say his "gameplay as a whole is suspicious"?

Just look at his ISO. Knight refuses to take a position on more than one occasion, his only scumhunting is latching onto a comment of mine, and then he goes back to posting drivel like telling Uite not to lurk. He seems like classic low-key scum hoping to coast by through not saying much of anything, and so far he seems to be succeeding. (Pine also fits this mold to a lesser extent.)

I see this to an extent, but other players are doing worse.

-Surye
Stop avoiding my question
If I flip town will you be for a lynch sub the next day

I dunno about him, but I wont. Sub doesn't look scummy to me at all.

Wow, not much useful content on page 12. Multiple people discuss silver's townread on me, which could easily be him buddying up to me, or it could be a genuine townread. There isn't enough info at this point, to know which.


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More to come after dinner.

[nhammen]

I fell asleep while writing a post!! Well, here it is:

I'm attempting but I'm having genuine trouble figuring out what to make of everything. //Confused
I have time tomorrow to devote to a reread so I'll do that in the meantime... (and by tomorrow I apparently mean later today. hmmmm...)

Please try to at least pretend not to be scum. It makes the game more challenging and fun. Is there enough time before the deadline to change to Zepher? Unfortunately, I don't think so.

I'm sure there's scum on this wagon, taking advantage of SB's default scumminess. Looking at voting patterns, DeityKabuto clearly stands out. He's placed three votes so far, and all have been on well-developed wagons. He was the fourth vote on the Toon wagon, third on Pine, and fifth on SB's. Looking at his iso, it's a menagerie of stating the obvious, without much thought or analysis, like he's not actually trying to scumhunt.

UNVOTE: Toon Fighter
VOTE: DeityKabuto

This is also a pretty good case. I haven't noticed anything useful from him yet.

That is some reasonable logic there, but I am more of what the "town" wants. If the town wants a certain person lynch, then I will overview the case and gather my own reasoning. Scumhunting itself can make you look scummy, if you don't know what you're doing, which I've experienced in past games.

Ummmm... what?

Between the two of subzero and silver, I would much rather see silver lynched. I am not a fan of his play thus far, and I still really don't see the case against subzero.

Uite's most recent post is interesting, and also much more like his play that I've seen previously. He makes a very interesting point against DeityKabuto. Also, am I reading this wrong, or is this:

That is some reasonable logic there, but I am more of what the "town" wants. If the town wants a certain person lynch, then I will overview the case and gather my own reasoning. Scumhunting itself can make you look scummy, if you don't know what you're doing, which I've experienced in past games.

basically Deity stating that he has no intention to actually scumhunt and just hop on the most popular wagons?

That being said, however, the timing of Uite's post seems odd to me, especially since if I read the deadline right, we only have 4 days left, and Uite's trying to start a completely different wagon? It just seems a bit suspicious to me.

Also, for the moment, UNVOTE:

Agree with this entire post, except why the unvote? Oh that's answered in the next post. In that case, I agree with the entire post.

I don't really feel good about DK's responses. I really don't agree at all that townies can't all be predator, because all that means is "not every townie can scum hunt", which I vehemently disagree with. He seems to be giving himself an easy out to play an easy scum game. If this doesn't check out with his meta, then it is probably a safe bet that DK is scum. If it does check out with his meta, then he is short changing town a scum hunter every game he's town aligned.

I agree. Why do people have to essentially claim scum right before deadline? Give us time for a wagon to build up people!

The first group likely has one scum in it. (SubSith would be my guess.) The second group ALSO likely has scum in it, due to the size of the wagon. (Ditto.) In a game of this size, I'm assuming four scum, so that's pretty much a maximum of two in a wagon. (Admit it: as scum in a 4-man scumteam, you hesitate to join a wagon which already has two of your scumbuddies on it.)

Out of the first 3 on the wagon, I find Maxous more scummy than Subzero, although still not on the top four out of all players. Also, did you

read

TWBB? Your "admit it" is proven FALSE by that game alone. I know you were in the game, but apparently you weren't paying attention.

FoS: mastin2

I really don't like how you keep going on about the setup of who's scum, and not people's levels of scumming.

You've done this more than once before, if I am correct.

It's not really helping at all, it does not give the town any leads, your opinions aren't that strong, and it's fake-scum hunting imho. I would unvote you, but first I want to see silverbullet999 defend himself against the bandwagon.

Deity is scumhunting!! GASP. At least its a decent case from the perspective of someone that doesn't know mastin. But, this is mastin being mastin, unfortunately. Nullread.

I don't like Mastin's argument. Or, rather, I like the "at least two scum on this wagon" part of the argument,

but I don't like the whole "this is right regardless of silver's alignment" thing.

Also find it a little odd that mastin just accepted a VT claim and his vote which was going to be on silver depending on the result of the claim is now "firmly" on SubZero... "I'll consider my vote depending on your claim" doesn't read much like "firmly" to me...

Emphasis mine. This is actually quite a good point from KoC. Mastin's views seem impervious to potential flips atm, which is really concerning.

@Wraith: Why the townread on Mastin? FTR, I'm also very interested in what your answer is to Silver's question in #317.

I'll be blunt--the voting trick shenanigans Mastin is pulling with the Silver wagon (fake voting and then referring to himself as a ".5" vote or an honorary member of the wagon) is really squirrelly (since it gives him lots of outs to distance himself if Silver were to actually flip town), and his tunneling I think negates (or at least substantially mitigates) a lot of the scumhunting he is doing so far.

Also, Mastin, point blank--if Silver had 6 votes on him instead of 7, would your vote still be on me?

Am still feeling like NS is doing an excellent job of sliding underneath everyone's radar.

Agree with the points against mastin and NS. This voting trick stuff removes all accountability. Not acceptable.

The three posts above me (not wraiths) slightly disturb me.. I won't comment further on it just yet but yeah.

Ummm... why not? You are about to be lynched. You should be giving out your information as much as possible, not HIDING it.

This was the case in TWBB, too--Pine was scum, and got wagoned to 7. I accurately predicted the number of scum present, and it didn't MATTER if Pine was town or scum.

Excuse me!?!? This is a flat out LIE! And I honestly see no motivation for this. Let me quote from TWBB:

Pine (7) :

Diddin (2)

, Empking,

Parama, Wraith, Jerbs

, Evilpacman18

This Pine wagon ALSO needs 1-2 scum (else it was COMPLETELY town-driven--theoretically possible, but extremely improbable), but at this point, it really only can be Empking and/or Evil. :/

There were NO SCUM on the Pine wagon. You DID NOT accurately predict the number of scum on the wagon! You didn't even come close. So tell me, why are you falsely pushing the infallibility of your VCA methods?

Others might not think about it, but I dare you to make a serious argument against me, a serious argument that I'm wrong.

It's just not possible, because I'm right:

Interesting, because I just did!


----- wherever I fell asleep at -----

[nhammen]

Zepher - In this post I kinda feel he left himself a bit too much wriggling room on Silverbullet. Even though he did express suspicion of Subzero. Hmm :/

This is completely false. Are you really telling me that my questions to you and max are me just dancing in the air having a good ol time?

Are you attempting to say you were scumhunting me?

What kind of shitty town are you to not want to pursue someone you think is scum unless your scum and... oh... now it makes sense.

Which is exactly what he did early game when he found a slight suspicion on Subzero and done nothing to pursue the suspicion or others.
He acted like mafia according to his own scumtell.


Posts like these always make me feel a bit uneasy. Mafia can uncommitally state this and wait to see what direction the town will go and then vote.
This vote then happened afterwards. I think Silver was on 5 at the time.

These are all good points that you bring up. This is good scumhunting, and seems to imply a town mindset.

I just think it's interesting how 2 suspected likely scum are currently on the Mastin wagon but

everyone else is still arguing over 50/50 scum/town

I think there are more scum pushing for a Silver/Sub lynch then other, sense-making lynches.

1) Why is Nobody Special likely scum?
2) You think at least one of Silver and Subzero is mafia? Why are'nt you voting or giving any thoughts at all on them then?
3) What "other sense-making lynches?" You stated your suspects it was Subzero and Amor. The latter being mostly gut?

Yeah. Zepher is such scum for 2 and 3. But point 1 should be obvious. Multiple people have posted cases against NS.

Subzero- Read post 279, that is my reason for voting silver. The reason I say silver has some innocence within him, say 40-60% is because other people have way different reasons. Usually, people's reasons for voting someone scummy are kind of the same (meaning they did something really really scummy) or their are multiple reasons (meaning they did many scummy things). Yet, the reasoning on silver, are mumbo-jumbo, all different and jumpy jumpy, get what I'm saying?

No. That doesn't make any sense. And having multiple reasons makes him more likely to be scum, not less.

Noticed something from Vote Count. Mastin and Silver cannot be scumbuddies. Mastin's meta and obsession with VCA would not allow him to be on the secondary wagon with a buddy. If/when SIlver flips scum, Mastin is confirmed Town in my eyes.

Amazing point! I hadn't noticed that! And you are quite right.

This

is how you use meta and combine it with VCA.

Also with the Silver wiggling room thing, that was my roundabout way of saying I'm not really sure on my read.
I want to think Silver is town, yes, but there are doubts. Hence why there's room for that to change. Make sense?

It makes sense from a scum perspective yes. Did you really just say that you are intentionally leaving yourself a way out of the wagon?

-Max
Are the quoted posts of me directed to me? I'll answer if you'd like but I wasn't sure.

How does scum nhammen post?

Well normally he's really lurky and barely posts in the first few days. The posts he does make are normally short as well.

I'm not saying Nhammen is town he needs to live forever and ever. But he reads as town for me for now.

Ummm... I didn't think I was making short posts in TWBB. So is this bullshit reasoning, or something else?

You don't see how "I'm voting for this person but I'm not sure if they're scum or town" isn't scummy? Your whole "sheep" schtick seems designed to allow you to hop on whatever wagon will get you a lynch without having to take responsibility for it afterwards. And the mindset you're referring to is being pro-town, you should try it sometime.

Who are the scum filling Silver's wagon? DK and KOC?

Them and maybe Pine. You and Mastin are right to say that it could be bussing, but I don't really get that vibe -- it seems like if they were bussing they would be making more forceful cases for town cred. In particular I don't think DK would be doing his "I'm just following the crowd" thing if he knew Silver would flip scum.

This is goodposting. In particular, the last sentence is well thought out. This means it is either silver or DK that is scum, but not both. However, this does not kill the Sub and silver bussing argument that mastin advocates. If you assume that Sub is scum, then this does look a lot like bussing.

[nhammen]

List of those I think are Scum: silver, Zepher and Deity (but not both silver and Deity, as per last post)
List of those I Suspect: Amor, KoC, NS, and mastin
List of those I think are Town: Wraith, Subzero, Pine, and Maxous

Toon could be on my Town list, but I don't think dumb town goes there unless you are fairly sure, and I'm not that sure.

The rest are null.

[nhammen]

You don't have enough reasoning to constitute a vote, but a vote not out is a vote not gathering information (I think I said this earlier to KoC). If there are scum pushing for a Silver/me lynch over better lynches, then why not use your vote to push one of those better lynches? Does. Not. Compute.

This.

@Amor

here

Hey, Sub and Silver might be town and all, I think I'll hop onto DK, I'll also ding Mastin for setting up chain lynches but than also suggest he might be right. Go Mastin, go!

Bwuh? Yeah, I want you dead.

Maybe I should have Amor back on my scum list after all.

List of those I think are Scum: Sub
List of those I Suspect: Nhammen (explained below) Pine, and slightly the rest of my wagon
List of those I think are Town: -----

So you are saying that you are suspicious of everyone on your wagon, and not suspicious of everyone not on your wagon?

why didn't you respond to the point that is the first quote in this post of mine?

Cause it's a wall and i missed it cause i skimmed it.
It's not the fact that he explains his vote that I found slightly scummy. It's that he kept basically saying "yeah this vote is slightly better than rvs etc"

Ummm... because it was? I don't get why you had a problem with this.

FALSE! He said that the fact that you were forcing him to answer pointless questions was what was scummy. Although, there is no such thing as pointless questions, so I disagree with this part of the case. But, the fact that you are twisting this like this is pretty scummy.

Incorrect sir (he loses his town read from this)
Here's the quote
"Fun fact: the questions were pretty dumb and

my answering them only points to how scummy you are. I didn't even feel them worth responding to but fine

."
Please read and reread bolded, please further read his response when I told him my thoughts on it...
"They were minute and pointless. It isn't as if I don't have enough reason to think you're scum."
There's no misinterpretation or twisting here mister.

Ummm... if you can't tell motivation from such phrases as "but fine", you really need to learn modern idioms. It was obvious (at least to me) that there was an implied "because you wont let it go" in his statement. That's what "but fine" means. SO that's what made it scummy. However, as I said before, forcing someone to answer questions isn't scummy. Dropping everything else while waiting for an answer is.

I would like everyone to take a look at this post and this post. What is NS doing? Modding a new game and joining a VERY COMPLICATED theme game. What's he not doing? Playing this game. Lurking scum, good for lynching possibly tomorrow.

I see some of the points against Amor, but we've got bigger fishes to fry. I'll look at the cases against him in more detail tomorrow. Scummy, but lower on the priority list.

Agree with these two points.

^Stop trying to get into things when I'm still waiting for responses... jesus^

You really need to die day 2

So now, not only can you not scumhunt while waiting for answers, but nobody else is allowed to either? How can you claim not to be scum?

Walls of realization thanks to nhammen. You're completely right.
Well for the most part; I think you're misunderstanding a couple things, but I need to change the way I'm approaching this game.

Gimme a bit to make a real post w/ vote.

OK, well. Either this is scum trying to fit in better, in which case we can get better reads, or this is town that is about to play a higher quality game. Either way, this can only be a good thing.

I also will throw Nobody Special in the highly suspect list because him being lurky as all hell is normally Nobody Special Scum though he normally does terribad posting as scum as well... and will probably eventually do so.

Deity wins some points for flip flopping me going "Eh you could be town or scum but I think town wants this so I'm gonna vote you" to then changing his opinion somewhere to "Silver is scum"

These are good points. When you get your head out of your OMGUS, you can actually think coherently. The fact that it took so long drives me to believe that this is faked, but at least it is effort.

^Also not Silver and mastin

Good point. Silver's flip should give us quite a bit of information. Hmmm... well, it seems that some people believe that silver being scum would implicate mastin. However, the wagon argument is a good one, so I disagree with this.

[nhammen]

I mean I disagree with the scum silver implies scum mastin, in case it wasn't clear.

[nhammen]

CRAP! I come back to check on the site before my night of drinking to see a mastin claim. I'm not sure how much I accept the claim, but staying on silver is too much of a risk in case it is true. I do not support either Sub or Toon, as I believe them both to be Town. Thus, I will vote either Zepher, Deity, Amor, NS, or KoC. As both Amor and Deity have 1 vote, I will vote for Deity, who I find more suspicious.
VOTE: DeityKabuto

I will have a more complete post tomorrow morning, if I am hangover-less.

[nhammen]

I know there's scum on my wagon, I think it's those I suspect the most but I could be wrong. I'd be willing to bet $100 that my wagon is not pure town.

I also never understood this point or why it's "justified" am I really scaring anyone with saying this? Are you scared by me saying this?

-nham

So you are saying that you are suspicious of everyone on your wagon, and not suspicious of everyone not on your wagon?

Read above

Ok then. How about off of the wagon. Is there anybody other than NS off of the wagon that you suspect? If so, why did you not mention them? If not, then why are you saying that our arguments are false?

Ummm... because it was? I don't get why you had a problem with this.

He made it a point to point it out. He didn't need to, it was implied. I said this before, it was a slight suspicion that had me decide to take a closer look at him.

Well, you never said any suspicions you gained from that closer look, so, from what you said, the only reasoning we could see was this, and it was worthless, but you kept saying you had found him suspicious. If you found something else worthwhile, why didn't you specify it? You only mentioned other arguments after you two started fighting with each other, and only arguments that appeared after you two started fighting.

Ummm... if you can't tell motivation from such phrases as "but fine", you really need to learn modern idioms. It was obvious (at least to me) that there was an implied "because you wont let it go" in his statement. That's what "but fine" means. SO that's what made it scummy. However, as I said before, forcing someone to answer questions isn't scummy. Dropping everything else while waiting for an answer is.

Wtf? He responded to it agreeing with my full fledged statement. How the hell am i misrepping him when he even agrees. This is really reminding me of your case on emp (he pretends to have reasons for joining the wagon but it all really doesn't make sense if you look at it closely)...

I'm sorry, but these are legitimate reasons. He agreed that your arguments were scummy. That is definitely the same as agreeing with your entire statement, isn't it? You totally weren't misrepping anything at all! I can't believe I have been so blind! It is almost like I am being completely sarcastic right now!

So now, not only can you not scumhunt while waiting for answers, but nobody else is allowed to either? How can you claim not to be scum?

What does this have to do with any of what I said? MISREP MORE PLEASE! How am I saying, "NOONE ELSE SCUM HUNT!". Sub was referring to you referring to me not wanting to comment about the three comments that I said i found interesting but didn't want to comment on, (I find it odd that three people literally repeated eachother, and knight seems paranoid as all hell for one reason or another, explaining now since knight just answered).

I'm sorry, but that is really what it looked like you were saying. It didn't make any sense at all. Only now that you have revealed the information that you were hiding (for no apparent reason) does it make sense. But you really shouldn't have gotten defensive about it at all.

For the record, why did that three in a row thing make you uneasy? Is there any reason for it to be scum motivated? I don't understand what you are claiming here.

Nham's my new number 1, sub's still there but christ these recent posts of ham's are terribad.
VOTE: nham

Please get your head out of your OMGUS and put your vote somewhere useful, if you are town, as mastin claims.

I do note that this use of a claimed cop power is in

direct

contradiction to mastin's article about cops, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that he'd fakeclaim as scum. Town gambit on a strong gut read, maybe. Have to think about this.

My thoughts exactly. Especially considering that he did something similar in TWBB, except without the explicit claim. But, just in case it isn't a gambit, we shouldn't be lynching him or silver today. I'm glad everyone else agrees.

First, Pine's vote is TERRIBLE. He has agreed with us (ICE and I) on both Toon and Silver, having been on the same wagon as us both times, but when crunch time happens and he gets scared off a wagon, what does he do? Completely forgets the scumread he has on Toon and votes for us without expressing any prior suspicion of this playslot. Seriously--check his ISO--nary a peep from him about us aside from at the very beginning when people wanted the hydra's identity verified. Pine reiterates his "suspicion" in #432, which is funny, because he said when he voted us that he didn't have time to consider it. Now, apparently, he has, and we're his #1. If Toon flips scum, I will demand a Pine lynch tomorrow.

Very very good point here.

Pine, Toon Fighter, Surye, DeityKabuto

Players who haven't yet justified why one of silver/SZ had to be scum.

There has got to be scum in that list. Probably better chances than elsewhere. And all of them have some reason to suspect them, apparently. Pine looks town to me, but that is changed dramatically if Toon is scum, as per the argument above.

@nhammen - I'm willing to buy the DK as town, because I have seen his town play and I suspect it's often terribad. How about you call for a Vig and instead hop on the Amor wagon. We have fine wines and chocolate.

Well, since it seems as though DK will not be the lynch, and Amor will, I am willing to make sure that our non-voters cannot change this. But I would like to say right now, that I would prefer a DK lynch.
VOTE: Amor

[nhammen]

I also determined that Surye has an 80% chance of being scum.

Which means--if I am correct--that the scumteam is {Amor, Zepher, Deity, Surye}.

I agree with this. Deity is scum due to both all of the cases yesterday, and the case presented by jmurph in 561.
Surye is scum due to the case presented by Subzero in 468.
Zepher is probably scum due to my cases yesterday, but I can see him as very newb town as well. If one of these is actually incorrect, it is Zepher. That is why I think we should have Zepher last, even though he has been extremely scummy. We give him a chance to redeem himself, just in case my initial read is wrong, and he is actually just newb town.

tl;dr:
VOTE: Deity

[nhammen]

Note: Deity is already at L-2. We should let everyone have a word in before we go ahead with this lynch. We don't want to end the day before some people have even had a chance to post.

Also: Pine, FTR I have a gut town read on Toon as well.

[nhammen]

You are one of the claimed scumbuddies and a claimed power role. Are you serious about your statement?

On another note: who did you target last night?

[nhammen]

@mastin: I also discovered that you were probably fakeclaiming, after I saw Pine's response. It is likely that other people did as well. So on that note, this gambit hasn't said much. But. I agree that Silver is likely scum. On Day 1 I thought he was scum... and on Day 2 I completely forgot about him because he was nowhere to be seen. Now a day 1 case needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but he was legitimately scummy until you pulled out your gambit. And then he conveniently disappeared.

FTR: I still have a Town read on Maxous, and on Pine, and a VI town read on Toon.
I don't see a scum mastin pulling this kind of gambit. It's just too ballsy, even for mastin. Scum don't act this way. So I am thinking that mastin is dumb town and not scum.

Thus my suspects are silver, Zepher, and Uite. NS would be a suspect, but mastin raises a good point about KoC's likely investigation. However, we can't be certain of this at all. So distant suspects are mastin and NS. Everyone else is likely or confirmed town at this point.

@Pine: Bad play does not equal scum play. mastin is likely town, in my opinion.

in conclusion:
VOTE: silverbullet

[nhammen]

1. Present your case (and no I don't want Oh you looked scummy day 1).

OK. How about: You came up with a bullshit case on Sub (who is now confirmed town), which would be OK on D1, but whenever you were asked to say why it was scummy, you would just say that people need to "READ MY POSTS THIS IS NOT HARD." Thus demonstrating an anti-town approach to the game. You repeatedly refused to scumhunt. And when you finally did "scumhunt" you would say that such-and-such action was scummy without providing any evidence for why it was scummy. You would hide "information" from the town, and when that information was requested, you yelled at the people that were requesting the information. You would say that you found more scumslips from players, but when asked for what these further scumslips were, you refused (again) to provide any information. After repeatedly not mentioning what these scumslips were, you manufactured a scumslip by twisting Sub's words. Oh right, and your suspicions (except NS) were exclusively on people who suspected you first. Did I miss anything?

2.

Day 2 I completely forgot about him because he was nowhere to be seen.

Oxymoron and doesn't quite work. If you had your doubts about mastin's claim and you still thought I was suspicious how do you "forget" about me, one of "your suspects".
3.

And then he conveniently disappeared.

Because you disappeared. There is a reason that scum lurk. Because it works. Because people tend to forget about players that don't post, unless reminded of them. Additionally, day 2 had a player that was much more likely to be scum. So yes, I forgot about you. That's what happens when players lurk.

Yes because I made posts on the days of day 2 in this game... (Go Ahead And Check)

What do you mean? I am accusing you of not posting in this game for the entirety of day 2, and your response is to tell me that you didn't post in this game for the entirety of day 2? Am I misunderstanding something?

[nhammen]

Your first paragraph is pure bullshit.. I've supplied evidence but you fucking choose to ignore it or call it stupid.

For the longest time, the only evidence that you supplied was that he had a serious vote. That is not a scumtell at all. When asked what about it made it scummy, your response was essentially "because it is."

I HATE fucking repeating myself time and time again but when you ask the same question that someone else asked... I tell you the god damn post where it's answered.

For example, when Maxous asked for your opinion of Sub in 186, the very next post said to look back at a post that was essentially just a vote. I'm guessing that a vote counts as an explanation to you, but to the rest of us it does not.

If I'm looking for reactions or further reactions for players.. IM NOT GOING TO WANT TO FUCKING REVEAL THAT IM LOOKING FOR A REACTION.

I have never seen your "looking for reactions" do

anything

productive. You "look for reactions" and then use whatever reactions you see to confirm what you had already believed. Your "looking for reactions" are just excuses to fabricate more evidence out of thin air.

Furthermore, you should expect people to focus on you for hiding information from the town, if you decide to do it. You shouldn't angrily lash out at players that attack you for this because

you are bringing it on yourself.

I did not twist any fucking words... He stated that he found me suspicious and answering questions would prove me further to be scum... but didn't feel like it would be worth going into. That is not fucking town play. There is no twisting of words there bud.

How about this: If you truly are town, and just completely misunderstood what he was saying, then I will ask him to clarify this at the end of the game. If you are scum, then I was right, and we are all good.

Me suspicious of everyone on my wagon? Let's look at my wagon
Silver bullet - Maxous,SubzeroSith, Pine, nhammen , Deity Kabuto, Surye,Knight of Cydonia, Toon fighter
DK was scum, Sub and KoC were town. I can Guarenfuckingtee that there is at least ONE other scum on that wagon.

True. But on the same note, there is almost certainly at least one scum off of the wagon as well. But you are ONLY looking at the people that are on the wagon. So, again, you are ignoring some scum so that you can attack everyone that was on your wagon.

Most of the vote posts were, yeah the shit going between sub and silver is annoying so one of them should be lynched... eh it should be silver. Why the FUCK would I NOT be suspicious of my wagon when it was the biggest one going at the time and I was fucking town. Do you REALLY Think I was trying to scare the ever living shit out of them so that they would never DARE vote me again? Are you fucking kidding me?

No, your attacks against them were not scary at all at this point. But the were not scumhunting either. You were using OMGUS to make it look like your posts had content. If you actually were town, you would have said "these are the people on the wagon that are scum, and these are the people off of the wagon that are scum." Instead you said that the entire wagon looks suspicious. And barely followed up on this. It was completely fake scumhunting.

Just look at all my posts, their are no fucking posts i've done during the entirety of day 2 in this game.

I already looked at all of your posts. That's why I was accusing you of exactly what you are admitting to.

To me, it seems that silver may be honest about what he is saying, but I don't like self-voters, so my vote stays where it is.

So... you think he is town but are voting for him?

On the other hand, the self-vote seems to have already thrown some people off of silver, which is precisely what scum would want. WIFOM shenanigans.

This makes sense. There were a few pieces of silver's actions that didn't add up with him being scum, but this is a logical explanation.

@Toon: Mafia reads please.

Maxous, Zepher and silver, mostly. Mastin can't be fully trusted, but he is proving himself reliable so far.

Earlier you said that silver was being honest, and you were voting him for being anti-town. What changed?

[nhammen]

Received my prod. Sorry about the two day absence. Am helping someone move today, so don't know when I will be able to post, but I will try as hard as I can to get a chance today. I will respond to a few posts now, but am already running late.

For the longest time, the only evidence that you supplied was that he had a serious vote. That is not a scumtell at all. When asked what about it made it scummy, your response was essentially "because it is."

I explained that I found it suspicious and thought it was best to look more into. I never said AHA HE'S SCUM BECAUSE HE'S CLARTIFYING THAT HIS VOTE IS IMPORTANT.

Yes, but

why

is that suspicious? Nevermind, we are just talking around in circles here, and this is producing nothing productive.

I further explained this down the road, his posts in between at that time didn't mean anything to me.

And later still you said you had found more things to be suspicious of. I never understood it much.

I want to seriously hit you with a fucking rock repeatedly. THERE'S NOT FUCKING MISUNDERSTANDING

If my questions are dumb and you answering them shows me to be even MORE scummy. Why the fuck would they NOT be worth responding to?

They were minute and pointless. It isn't as if I don't have enough reason to think you're scum.

He is Admitting he was lazy to get more reasons to think i'm scum right there.

Again, you seem to be misreading it. And again, talking in circles - unproductive.

HOW... HOW would I possible know.. OK These guys are scum and These guys are town. Did you NOT Completely Ignore how I hated There Will Be Bloodshed because I'm hesitant to call anyone town because i don't want the same thing happening again? Jesus

But you should be trying to find out. You should be saying that this person looks scummy for such and such and this person look more townie for such and such. No absolutes, but more than just, they voted for me so are scum.

I already looked at all of your posts. That's why I was accusing you of exactly what you are admitting to.

I meant on the whole forum... -_-

Ah! Well... that doesn't mean much. Or maybe... how many games were you in at this time?

There were a few pieces of silver's actions that didn't add up with him being scum

Explain. I sure as heck can find some, but I don't see any evidence in your posts showing you not seeing pure scum. If that makes sense.

In other words. List everything which you saw that didn't add up with him being scum.

Three things:
The OMGUS, while it can come from scum, tends to come from townies more often.
The hanging on to his initial posts after they had been identified as scummy.
The self-vote.

I had presented one reasoning for the OMGUS (as fluff), but that seemed kinda off to me.
On closer examination, I determined the second is a personality tell (I have seen it before in previous games from MonkeyMan, and that player did it equally as both town and scum).
Both the OMGUS and the self-vote can be explained as WIFOM. ALthough, now that I think about it, I'm not sure if silver is the type of player to do WIFOM like this. Hmmm...

Your read on nhammen is pretty much what I see as well. For not just against Silver, but also the whole game, essentially.

I... really? I didn't think I had been doing that with anyone other than silver. I noticed myself doing it with silver, but when I presented my cases he responded with "no I wasn't," so my only response was to say "yeah you were."

[nhammen]

I could get behind a Pine lynch, but I see no case against him. Can someone make a convincing case? If so, I'll hop in

You what? Why are you willing to lynch Pine without seeing any case? Are there people other than jmurph that you wouldn't hop on if there was a convincing case? If so why?

This game, I swear.

You know I've seen mafia do this before as a excuse to lurk and to avoid taking solid stances on any of the players in the game.

This is a good point. Why is NS not on my suspect list? Oh right, because NS might be KoC's investigation. Maybe. Hmmm... I still will not support an NS lynch yet, because of that. We have to have at least two scum left, so there are better suspects than a possible investigation target at this point.

@Silver: No. You haven't said "shit". Actually, you have. All that you've said today has been pretty much bullshit. Who do you think is scum? You mentioned nhammen weakly, but that's it. Please, make a case against someone. I'm not tunneling, I just don't see any conceivable way that you can be acting the way you are and be town.

^ this

Later on, Subzero had explained his vote on Toon Fighter, and why he think Toon Fighter is scum. His reasons were valid, but also more of an assumption. This caused Toon Fighter to lose his temper and snap on SubzeroSith, at the same time, he seems like an innocent townie

He defended Toon Fighter!
And then Toon used that excuse
Yeah I'm getting more confident here.

This is a decent point. But it could just as easily be DK buddying up to a townie. My gut is still saying that Toon is town. But maybe I shouldn't listen to my gut, because I can't remember any specific logical argument for me to believe this.

@Maxous 770: You seem to be saying that DK having a scumread on Zepher and Pine makes them more likely to be town. Do you think he wouldn't bus a scumbuddy? In fact, upon isoing DK, I find that there are only two mentions of Zepher: once in the 58% scum as you quote above, and then later Zepher is a town read. DK never provided a reason for this switch. I agree with your suspicions of NS, but am still not wanting to lynch him. Although, the evidence seems to be building up.

On another note, I have been playing with a Toon Scum, Mastin third party idea.
It would make sense for Mastin to want to keep another source of night kills alive, and then flip his reads to make Toon scum as soon as one or two of us flips town.

Is there any reason that you believe Mastin to be third party instead of mafia? And why are you even worrying about third party right now, since if there is a third party, they seem to have been narrowing our suspect list quite nicely so far?

I didn't say they were. I just put out the idea as a hypothetical. I have seen scumteams argue like this.

So what is it that you do believe?

Mastin as SK makes more and more sense as I think about it. I mean, it sounds like he was trying to bait the Mafia NK onto him, presumably because he's bulletproof, in order to have only one N1 kill and conceal his presence for a while.

Now you are doing it too. Is there any reason to believe that Mastin is third party over him being scum?

I say we lynch Pine today and Mastin tomorrow.

I could get behind this.

Pine, if I'm holding a banana, everyone can see it's a banana. You don't have to explain to everyone that it's yellow, it has a peel, and it's a delicious fruit. WE GET IT. IT'S A BANANA.

In much the same way, you're scum. We don't have to explain it. You just ARE.

Well, at least you have an opinion on something now, or are at least claiming to. But without seeing your reasons for believing this, I have no idea whether you are just riding a bandwagon or what. There are multiple reasons that you do in fact need to describe your case. First off, any good townie should be trying to convince people that their reads are correct. Secondly, without cases, you cannot be read.

You personally being against bussing has no bearing whatsoever as to whether your teammates would bus you.

This has nothing to do with anything he said. The correct counter argument is, because you know you have a meta against bussing why should we listen to you? Again, why is Pine scum?


---bottom of page 32---

[nhammen]

Uite, have you looked at yourself? You had 3 bs votes (voted me, unvoted the day after, voted into a DK wagon that never went anywhere D1, failed to vote D2, and D3 same thing, a stupid vote on a confirmed town, and now no votes for a few days), never showed up to any decent wagon, lurked throughout the game, waited to hammer DK. Your scumhunting is resumed to basically the VCA post, and even that has no real comment to it, its just a collection of data. You think we should lynch mastin, Pine, me, jmurph, although you haven't analysed anything yet. You may have been sick, but it has been enough time to catch up by now. Also, you have an unexplained and unnecessary VT claim and a column seems to be missing from your VCA. Who was there? scumslip much?

This is a good analysis. Although that VT claim is a nulltell in my opinion. It could come from either alignment just as easily.

I owe you an apology, Zepher. 822 was written entirely from memory. I just looked through Maxous's ISO, trying to disprove your 823, and found that you're absolutely right. Prior to this, Maxous had not expressed more than mild suspicion of you, and up until 803 was calling you Town.

UNVOTE: NS
VOTE: Maxous

NS and Mastin are also good lynches, but a contradiction like that...I'm not going to let it go.

Interesting. This looks slightly bad for Max. And also bad for Zepher if Maxous flips scum, because both DK and Max have had unexplained changes of view regarding him. I believe this is the only evidence against Maxous though, and it isn't enough for me to see him as scum.

Except for the fact that you'd still be alive, and Toon isn't actually cleared.

I keep forgetting the KoC/NS connection. Entirely because NS's play has been singularly unhelpful to Town.

^ this

Note to self: Investigate nhammen meta. ISTR that he doesn't lurk as town.

Another stellar bit of input from NS. What did your meta analysis tell you NS?

I could get on a Maxous lynch too, and since I don't see this day going anywhere

unvote, vote: Maxous

And, do you see the arguments for or against Maxous? Specifically, is your vote on him just to lynch

somebody

, or do you believe he is scum?

Also, Pine, if you're a town RB like you claim, you need to block someone inside of those names. And a doctor if existing should protect OUTSIDE those names.

And the potential PR's are'nt among those names at all because..?

There are a few reasons I can think of Mastin making this comment, and only one of them is even halfway decent.

You forgot the scum kill tonight

...
...

I, uh. Don't know what to say. >_< (Consider it a bit of Writer's Block. Best word I have to describe it.)

Toon's town, though. If he were scum, he'd be under no obligation to inform me of the fault in my plan. (Nobody else did so. Not even Pine.) As town, though, he had every reason to do so.

I believe this is correct.

Oh, and you're right, scum NEVER push their buddies as counter-wagons when they're about to go down. Godfathers

certainly

never do this. [/massivesarcasm]

My thoughts exactly. Sarcasm and all.

FALSE OMG YOU KEEP FUCKING IGNORING ME. TWBB MADE ME NOT WANT TO DECLARE PEOPLE TOWN FOR THE 100th FUCKING TIME. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. AND I DIDN'T GO OH WELL THEY JUST VOTED ME SO THEY ARE SCUM. STOP MISREPPING

But you never gave any reason for your "suspicions" other than that they voted for you. And you only gave an even halfway decent case on Sub or me after voting us. It's like you are trying to come up with reasons to justify your vote after the vote was made.

@nham: The reason for SK Mastin over Scum Mastin is his pursuit of Amor and DK. That said, Mastin has been known to bus the shit out of his scumbuddies, so meh. It's mostly that I can't really see a partner for him.

I was only providing options. Also, any scum intention that I CAN find is conducive more towards a third party.
But it's nothing more than speculation at this point, hence why I wouldn't be quite so willing to join a Mastin wagon today unless there's more conclusive evidence.

Hmmm... both of these look kinda bad. Pine's reason at least looks like it could be honest. Although it would be a failure, since you seem to be forgetting that he has gone back and forth on Uite with no explanation. For Zepher, what about his possible scum intentions seems more conductive to a third party? My problem is that there is no real reason to be having these speculations in the first place. At least you weren't hunting exclusively for third party, but it's still bad.

[nhammen]

One thing that really struck me, however, when I was going back through the lead-up to the D1 lynch, is that Maxous really wavered on amor. Kept going back and forth, had a vote on him only for a moment and then very quickly took it off

when he realized that it might be possible with plurality voting that amor not be lynched

. I dunno, it just seems hella scummy to me. Enough for me to VOTE: Maxous

Interesting analysis. Now I can see Maxous as scum. Still not my number 1 or even number 2 suspect.

Actually, I've changed my mind.

Unvote, Vote: Maxous

. Maxous vs Zepher is not town-on-town. There's one scum in there.

Why Maxous over Zepher? You have been mildly suspicious of Zepher for a long time, but suddenly you decide if one of them is scum it is Maxous.

You mind explaining why Mastin?

Have you READ the interaction between you and Zepher? No way is it town-on-town. Heck, it's possible (albeit highly improbable) that it's scum-on-scum.

Ummm... why is it highly improbable to be scum on scum? OK, Maxous has been attacking Zepher a bit tunnelly. But notice, nobody has supported him on this. This is when bussing works best. When the chance for a lynch is lowest.

So, yeah. Maxous just did a huge scumslip for asking why it's not town-on-town.

I might not be explaining it in the best way possible, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who can think this way. I've pointed it out, so when others see it, they'll realize I'm right.

Actually, I can understand this. This does look like a scumslip.

Zepher, and ONLY Zepher. "Everyone else seems town..." Effectively. He listed pretty much the whole town as being town, except for Zepher. No #2 suspect. At all.

Zepher or Toon. "Let's start compromising on who to lynch." Actually. I seem to recall Maxous defending his play as going AGAINST Compromise lynches. What quote was that, again?

He realized that if he isn't mafia, then he needs to have a #2 suspect...

It's asking somebody to explain a baseless accusation.

I'm not so arrogant as to not consider the possibility I am wrong about Zepher.

And this? Saying that he could be wrong about Zepher? Only makes it worse. I'm saying it's not town-on-town, and now Maxous is beginning to try and make it look like he's not convinced it's not town-on-town, either. If that makes sense. Admittedly, this is my weakest point against Maxous, because I'm not sure anyone else will understand it. I wish I could explain how this point is personally my strongest, even though to others it's the weakest.

To me this is weak as heck. Especially considering that any townie that is that confident could be screwing people over if they are wrong (see TWBB).

You came out with there is "one scum in there". Implying either myself or Mr.Zepher is mafia.
I asked you to explain why.
Eventually you come up with a post explaining why *I* am mafia. Not why

either of us

is mafia like you basically stated - why I am mafia.(which about half was information rather than analysis)

If you voted because you thought I am mafia for such reasons you would of said so in the first place. But you did'nt - you strongly implied it was either/or.

You then went through my ISO without looking at the context. So you were'nt analysing my posts to see if I am mafia.
If you thought I was mafia for such reasons you would of

already

looked at the context and decided.
Your sole purpose for going through my ISO was to find reasons why your vote was correct.
You voted/called me mafia first

then afterwards

you looked for reasons why.

You sir, are a chancer

unvote

VOTE: Mastin

I like this argument. It is the biggest type of scumtell I know.

I went with you rather than Zepher, though I don't remember why. (Might've been that I saw more potential support for your lynch, might've been that I felt you were slightly more likely. I don't remember. But it's not important. What's important is what I believe NOW, that Maxous has outed himself as scum.)

I would liked to have known why. You have to remember, we don't know if you are scum or not. You could be scum with Zepher for instance, bussing him in a way that gets rid of Maxus first.

Hi, Pine. You should come in here. I'm scum, bussing my buddy! (You still believe that, right, Pine?)

If the shoe fits...and it does.

What fits even more is you as SK and Maxous as Mafia. I could see any number of buddies for Maxous, but none for you.

I don't see how you keep making this case. Look at Uite or Zepher. He has had changing opinions on Uite, and Zepher has always been number 3 on his list, and coincidentally enough, every time someone higher on his list was lynched, someone else was inserted above him.

After reading the recent interactions between Max and Mastin, I believe more and more that maxous is scum, and I don't know why aren't more people voting him. Pine already said he suspected him, and his vote would be far more useful on max than it is on mastin right now. Silver is sucking ass, so he could at least help us lynch a sum. Uite's OMGUSing me, and he could help us lynch this scum today instead of pointlessly attack me. Come on people!

You voted him before this interchange. You never explained this vote. I'd like it if you would.

Post-game, Toon, sure. I'll link to my QT. Gives a nice insight into the Mind of Mastin.

... I know linking to a QT is illegal in game, but you should copy some of your arguments over. Without an in game insight into the mind of mastin, we have no way to determine your alignment. Maybe that's the way you like it...

[nhammen]

Hmmm... Zepher's vote of Mastin doesn't look like bussing. If they were bussing, why would he unvote? If he unvoted because he was not liking how close his buddy was to being lynched, then why did he vote in the first place?

This seems to bust my hypothesis.

[nhammen]

I can see where you are coming from, because it is kinda true. There are honestly too many scummy actions in this game. As jmurph said, "ANYTHING in this game can be taken and twisted and manipulated to support anything." I used to have 4 town reads, but Maxous' response to your case was legitimately scummy, and I'm not sure about NS anymore, but I'm still hesitant to lynch him. I'm having difficulties trying to rank everyone.

Also, Maxous, if you are Town, I don't understand how you could possibly do PoE in this game. It doesn't make sense.

[nhammen]

Yeah, I do. Typo...

[nhammen]

I do it all the time.

I just devised a strategy which used it, if you noticed.

The use of a roleblocker is not what I meant by PoE, although it does eliminate suspects one at a time. This strategy should work, assuming that we correctly lynch scum today.

[nhammen]

I do, and did find Maxous suspicious, I just had better places to put my vote on before the last few days. I was off during D1, and D2 was DK time. silver seemed better for the first time of D3, but now it's time to go on Maxous. And I'm liking this wagon very much so far.

You do realize that before your vote on Maxous, the only time you ever mentioned any suspicion of hi was post #735? And in this post, you never gave a single reason? So... yeah. It really looks like you were just sheeping your way onto the wagon. Same as you said you would with Pine in #754. (Yes, I isoed you after this comment of yours, because I never remembered you mentioning Maxous before your vote.)

VOTE: mastin

I don't see the maxous case, also it sort of occured to me that mastin came in today saying we must lynch either me or pine and we'll win... now that's changed in the same day.... disturbs me.

This is goodposting. I can see what the Maxous case is, but it isnt good enough for me to vote for him. However, Zepher, Pine, Uite, and you are above mastin in terms of my suspects. Although, I am finding it hard to determine who your partner would be, and I seem to have dropped you down the list of scum suspects, so...
UNVOTE:

In fact, upon this SK logic being repeatedly presented, I am finding Zepher and Pine to both be seriously scummy. On the other hand, jmurph, a confirmed townie, has also joined in the SK fun, so maybe this isn't what I think it is.

mastin2 (3.5) – Maxous, Silver, NS, Pine (honorary member)
L-1 --> Maxous (4.5)– Toon Fighter, jmurph3, mastin2, Pine (about to jump off), MrZepher

Our lead two wagons.

And know what?

I'm fine with that. Since when I flip town, Maxous gets vigged. And if we SOMEHOW were both town, Zepher gets lynched.

Scum death, guaranteed.

This plan involves up to 6 deaths (including scum and vig/SK kills), of which at least one is likely to be scum. With 10 remaining players, that leaves 4 alive, possibly including 1 scum. I would prefer a plan that removes the scum before we get to lylo, so how can we best optimise this? Consider, if Mastin is scum, his most likely partner is Zepher (at least I think so). But Zepher could be scum with other people, and is legitimately more scummy than mastin. Thus, I believe we should lynch Zepher rather than mastin. Who agrees?
VOTE: Zepher

OMG, Pine has more posts than Mastin.

And NS's wonderful amount of contribution continues.

[nhammen]

VOTE: Toon Fighter

I roleblocked Toon and no second kill happened. Mafia scum or SK scum.

He claimed vig. Of course there was no second kill.

I didn't believe the claim. It's SK-posing-as-vig, or scum posing as vig.

In that case, why use the logic that a kill didn't happen? If he was lying then blocking him would negate a kill, and if he was telling the truth then blocking him would negate a kill. So the negated kill would then be a nulltell.

I seriously expected to be dead by now.

vote: Pine

RB me was scummy as hell. Seriously, I had just cc a vig and lynched him. You are obvscum RB.

Given his reasoning, I can understand the RB, but not his response after it was successful. He essentially assumed you were fakeclaiming, and then used a nulltell to reinforce that opinion.

He had lurked throughout D1, but from the posts he made he looked like he could be on Amor's scumteam. I don't remember exactly why I chose him, but tomorrow I'll look more into it.

Do not like.

"down to NS or you"...as my top suspects for SK, which is the kill I was trying to prevent. I forgot about this game a bit and had to make a last-second decision when quadz poked me 2 hours before deadline asking for my choice. It was perhaps ill-considered.

Why were you trying to prevent the SK kill specifically?

Pine makes little sense.. of course Toon Fighter was the second kill source.
And it seems

he did

read that part where Toon claimed. His kills were'nt pro-town.'Oh apart from the Surye one' which was

half his kills.

And only after he voted did he ask for an explanation of why Wraith was killed.
And this is not to mention how Pine seems overly worried about the presence of a SK in this game. FFS I had him as my strongest town-read earlier.

Toon Fighter is not mafia. It would make such negative sense to counterclaim a vig as mafia.
It's quite unlikely he is a SK either. Would you immediatly cc a vig and hammer instead of going 'oh shit is he really a vig? Gotta be careful'. Because if Mastion actually flipped vig we would know Toon is a SK.
So yeah Toon is town and I'm taking a truckload of egg on my face.

Trivia question: Who can tell me Toon Fighter's last vote before he hammered Mastin?

VOTE: Pine

Agree wit this entire post, except the part about ccing a vig claim. There had been two kills every night, and this is a large normal. Chance of both a vig and a SK approaches zero. However, Toon was very straightforward about it, which I believe probably implies a pro-town view.

I still hold my theory of a {Max, Pine} scum team, but I don't really see how these last posts/votes fit the theory. I'm gonna think about it and later tell my thoughts

I guess I need to reread to see where that theory came from.

VOTE: pine

Commentary not included?

I've had an incredibly hectic weekend. Have to re-read most of the game.

Not thrilled with Pine (again, or is that still?).

Should have real content by tomorrow or Tuesday.

Eagerly awaiting the arrival of said content.

The only other possible explanation is that scum thought I was a SK, or that I would miss my shot tonight. Because of yesterday's play, I was likely gonna shoot Max or Mr Zepher, but most likely Max. That leaves with the following options:

1) Pine is scum RB and RB me last night to prevent me from killing scum (most likely to me)
2) There is another RB, scum aligned, and Pine is RB town aligned (not very likely, I don't believe we have 2 RB in this game)
3) Scum thought I was SK (possibly NK immune) and didn't bother to shoot me (maybe, but I could still hit scum in that scenario)
4) Scum thought I was gonna miss my kill, that was likely on Max last night (the other possibility, but we can only be sure if Pine flips)

Therefore, if Pine is innocent, Max is likely innocent aswell. If Pine is scum, Max is also likely to be scum

OK, I can agree with this logic, although after reading (3) I think there is one more possibility: 5) Scum thought a Doc would be more likely to protect you than jmurph. But as with three, you could still hit scum in that scenario.

I'm thoroughly confused at this game. Mastin's fake was horrible and probably deserved the lynch. Toon's claim seems real enough, though that raises the question why he wasn't killed at night. Even if jmurph was a confirmed townie, shooting a claimed vig would have higher priority I'd think. Unless he could be blocked...

I'll need some time to untangle this mess, and for the meantime I'll park my vote on NS, because really, he's done even less than me this game.

VOTE: Nobody Special

Agree with this post. Also, I can't remember why I excluded him, but I do not remember having NS as a suspect. I believe this needs to be remedied.

Also, if Pine is scum, he is more than likely a jailkeeper.

How would you know this? Where does this information come from?

[nhammen]

Also @nham: I'm more concerned with SK right now because the SK is basically a scumteam of one, whereas the Mafia is a team of 2 (maybe but not likely 3). Eliminating one of the night kills is simpler if you pursue the single-member faction.

I'm actually toying with writing up an article on MD about the benefits of hunting SKs right from the start alongside the Mafia. They should be treated as one-member scumteams, not as Townally-until-proven-otherwise. Thinking about this lately has made me paranoid about vig claims.

Except that many games do not contain an SK. So hunting for an SK in these games is counter-productive. Additionally, looking at people that are hunting for SKs is a great way to catch scum. That is what caused me to become suspicious of you and Zepher (well, I was suspicious of Zepher on Day 1, but his play had been improving). We shall see how well this pans out.

Ah, right.
It was in line with the idea that Pine could have been bussing DK, in which case I find it more likely that he's a JK as apposed to an RB.
(I thought immediately after reading his claim that it wouldn't be difficult for a scum JK to claim RB.)
Honestly I don't think I've ever seen a town jk, or a scum rb.

Scum RB occurs very frequently. As for you immediately suspecting that it wouldn't be difficult for a JK to claim RB, was this mainly because of DK's claim, or something else?

This coupled with the lack of a vig kill, but that's just what my mind went to first.

What does the lack of a vig kill have to do with it? That has already been explained.

I think all efforts aimed at finding the SK should have been vanquished after Mastin flipped town.
If Toon was the SK, he would have been smarter than to claim Vig, as now we have an eye on his kills.
(I.E. he just reduced his chances for winning as SK by a good margin)

I think all efforts at finding SK shouldn't have even appeared like this. Its poor play all around.

I've seen both Town JK and scum RB. Both recently.

In [REDACTED], that we're both involved with, there was a Town JK.

Unvote

Vote: Zepher

Apparent contradictions and scrambling to fix the mistake.

Doesn't make sense as an intentional lie, especially given that the two of you are apparently in the same game together.

somebody else also hasn't had any decent pressure on him all game... it's nobody special... but i think he's the special one for today!

Yeah, hes one of my suspects as well. Mainly for having practically no useful content.

I usually keep ongoing games off my mind so I don't accidentally use them as evidence.
I won't use it as justification for anything until the game is over, and you'd be wise to do the same.
As such, that point becomes instantly invalid as soon as it was made.

... I don't know what to say about this. On the one hand, adherence to the site rules is noble and all. But on the other, you just said that you can ignore some cases just because the evidence comes from a certain source. I do not like that defence at all.

I still don't see the case on maxous... then again i've succesfully led one lynch so far on a townie and missed those other two lynches of scum, so I may very well be (and probably am) a raving blind idiot.

-Zeph
can you post a nice detailed case on mazous if you don't mind?

No, I agree. I can see a bit of a case, but Maxous has been very protown all game, and I don't see him as scum.

what do you guys think of a massclaim now? Who hasn't claimed yet?

Looking at the list, I believe that it is me, NS, and Zepher that have not claimed.

Yeah..remember Nobody Special is the (likely)cop clear.

Oh right. But he has been playing terribly. Hmmm... how much does this possibility of him being the cop investigation give us? I don't think it counteracts the absolute lack of anything that we have seen from him.

Yeah..remember Nobody Special is the (likely)cop clear.

Could you explain this to me a bit? I think I missed something.

KoC investigated someone night 1. We don't know who. But he did give a comment defending NS that some people have taken to be a breadcrumb of this investigation. It is not a sure thing. And I have become leery of giving him a free pass because of this possibility.

@ NobodySpecial and Nhammen
What are your reads and why.

silverbullet999 - scumread, but is improving. The votepost earlier did not help.
Pine - was a townread until all of the SK hunting. Now is scummy. RB on what is most likely a town vig is bad. Really bad.
MrZepher - Scumread. After seeing his play improve on D1, he fell most of the way off of my scummeter, but he returned upon a D3 reread of DK followed by him starting this whole SK hunting thing.
Nobody Special - Massive scumread if we ignore the possibility of KoC's investigation. I think I have to stop giving him a pass, and act on this.
Uite - Slightly scummy, but less so than any of my other scumreads. Very little useful has come out of him, but I do remember him at least posting some content, unlike NS, so possibly lazy town rather than scum.
Toon Fighter - Has been obvtown all game. I think I may have had some short lived suspicion at some point, but it wore off quickly.
Maxous - Probtown. I can see the case on him, but do not agree.

OK, 4 out of 7 are scumreads... this is not the situation I want to be in.

Gaah,
Earlier in the day Pine said he did'nt beleive Toon's vig claim and he is scum. He then went to 'perhaps it was the wrong choice'. It's not the wrong choice if you beleive he is scum. And you either beleive the claim or not. Or at least show a reason why you changed your mind.(he did'nt)
He votes me saying he is just as certain of me being scum as Toon. So he is 'certain' that Toon is indeed a SK scum and his higher priority is finding the SK but he is voting for who he thinks is mafia.
Silver says his explanation is bad. Pine says it is because he made a simple mistake. But now it is not truly a mistake as he still thinks Toon is a SK.


Confused? Because I am.
He seems to be just answering the questions while not keeping the same thought process. His posts are not consistent with him beleiving Toon to be a SK and wheter or not he made a mistake blocking him.

Yeah, it seems very... disjointed I guess would be the correct term.

Oh and no-one seemed to of gotten my hint earlier. Who was the last person Toon voted before he hammered Mastin? Pine.
If Pine is mafia he had every reason to roleblock Toon. (he would'nt of risked Toon shooting him)

Very true.

Max, my confused actions stem from the fact that I had such a solid SK-in-vig-clothing read on Toon at the beginning of the day, and not only does no one believe me, I'm getting a lot of flak for it.

Wait. Are you really saying that you backed down from your view because of all of the flak you were getting for it?

[nhammen]

I should probably include a vote there as well.
VOTE: Pine
This is L-2.
I could also very easily vote for NS.
Zepher would be 3rd and silver 4th, but at this point these two are distant from my top two.
I do not support the Maxous wagon at all.

[nhammen]

Had a busy last few days, but have now finished my test (the test was at 8:30 in the morning; talk about cruel and unusual punishment). Incoming wall.

[nhammen]

Most of Zepher's 1105 is good. Still don't like his response to Pine's case.

... I don't know what to say about this. On the one hand, adherence to the site rules is noble and all. But on the other, you just said that you can ignore some cases just because the evidence comes from a certain source. I do not like that defence at all.

I have no way of knowing what other people say are coming from ongoing games.
I usually assume they're abiding by some sort of similar moral code or something. Not to be a white knight or anything lol.

I'm just saying, when Pine said hey, you lied, your response wasn't to say it wasn't scummy, or to defend yourself at all. Instead, you said that it didn't matter if you lied because it had to do with an ongoing game. I do not think that it is really a valid defense, as much as you are trying to obey the ongoing game rules.

I've sort of claimed if you've read my posts day 3.

Right. You said to vig you.

Why do you think NS is mafia anyway? I think I missed it.

Are you kidding? NS has had no useful content all game.
His first votes were given with very poor reasoning.
His first real suspicion occurs on Day 3 with "I think Pine is trying too hard (and therefore scum). I think Mastin is ....Mastin, and therefore unreadable."
He then says "Just, you know, hypothetically: Does anyone see a potential Pine/Mastin scumteam here? I mean, besides me?" and then when asked to explain what evidence, "I didn't say they were. I just put out the idea as a hypothetical. I have seen scumteams argue like this." He is trying to make accusations without having the accusations associated with him. He later brings this up again.
From there he decided to tunnel on Pine, which would be OK, except that the only evidence he ever mentioned was "trying too hard", and when people ask for reasons, he is wholly uncooperative with the town.
And that's really all of the content he has.
In addition, you had an argument against him involving DK's interaction with him.

Okay, but why only now? NS has been doing this the whole game.
Did you have suspicion on NS in the earlier day periods?

That is a good question. In my case, I decided to wait to look at him because of the possibility of the cop investigation, combined with the fact that there has to be at least one other scum. This meant that there should be a better lynch candidate. However, today I felt that it has waited long enough, and looking at him causes me to see massive scumtells. I'm not sure if we should wait to lynch him in favor of another person or not though, since that same argument still applies.

Mr. Zepher - how do you go from finding somebody to be likely scum on Day 1 to having a gut town read at the start of Day 4 when you are not paying attention to him?
Furthermore why did you have a gut town read on him at the start of Day 4 when you were paying attention to his posts late Day 3? - his ISO was exactly the same as it is now and it would'nt of taken that long to check.
Also, who is "we" in the "we've discussed suspicions of him throughout the game".

Oh hello! Upon an iso of Zepher, I see what you are talking about. This could be scum Zepher going back and forth on a buddy, or suddenly realizing that there is an easy mislynch. On the other hand, this could be town Zepher legitimately forgetting about a lurking player. Only adds slight scumpoints to Zepher because of the last possibility.


Not as long as I was thinking it might be.

[nhammen]

Still think Pine stinks.

I believe he's playing very well, for scum, but I still think he is. Reasoning? All the sames reasons I've stated throughout the game. I've just re-read today and parts of earlier stuff, and Pine's iso.

What same reasons? Can you tell me where you have given reasons for Pinescum other than "he is trying too hard"?

[nhammen]

Holy crap. The game blows up, but I'm about to leave. I just checked in before leaving and saw the claim. This removes my reason for not voting NS, but I do NOT have time to count votes right now, so I will
UNVOTE:

And say that if NS is not at L-1 I will vote him.


Also, my quick look at the game has shown multiple cases of people asking where I am. I posted yesterday, and I have a life and a job.

PRE-EDIT: Nice timing of a votecount. I will not vote NS yet, and will have much comments tomorrow.

[nhammen]

Pine... nevermind

Everyone list of most to least suspected

My recent posts contained a similar list, but not in order. However, Zepher's claim changed my list. It is now
NS
Zepher
Pine
Silver
Uite
Max
Toon

@Maxous 1187: This is a great case against Zepher, and another good reason for him to be at the top of my list.

I was going to post a well thought out, and cleverly worded post on why Pine is an idiot and scum, BUT when I went back to see exactly what it was that Pine is taking as a breadcrumbed cop clear (which there is none btw.) and noticed that I think Nhammen is the only person to disagree with my case.
I mean, it seems weird but I'd like to know where everyone stands on my case with Maxous and why you disagree with it if you do.

This goes for Nhammen too as I don't think I ever inquired as to why you disagreed with my post on Maxous.

Just for reference, when you ask someone to answer an earlier question, it is considerate to either include a link to the previous question or quote it, so that people know what you are referring to without forcing them to read your entire iso.
I assume you are referring to post 1084. If so, I find that most of your points are tunneling, but some are valid. Lets go through your iso case:
#0 was a very good post in my opinion, which I believe I agreed with at the time, if I remember correctly.
#7 I agree with Maxous entirely and do not see any baseless reasoning.
#14 I agree with you. In hindsight it looks bad. Real bad.
#15 and #16 ehhh. Maybe. I can see it, but its kind of a flimsy case. Everyone unvoted silver, because of a claimed cop clear. For the vote for Amor to be bad, you would have to explain why it looks like bussing.
#18 I have used the same "more likely to be lynched" logic before, in another game, so I can't fault him for this. But the damning thing here, is that it is a counterwagon for the Amor wagon. Bad.
#22 This is a point for town Max not against him. He didnt ask DK to provide Max's reasons for Toon scum. He asked DK to provide DK's reasons for Toon scum. This does not seem like bussing to me.
#23 ehhh. I see this to, but not sure what significance it has, especially given that DK did something similar with you.
#26 agree that this is really bad.
#40 Ummm... You can't do that. You can't say that it is bad to end the day quickly, and then say it is bad to not end the day quickly. You can't have it both ways.
#48 PoE is a perfectly valid method of scumhunting, if there are many townreads. However, I do have to say that to me, there are not nearly enough townreads to use PoE.
#55-#64 I have said before that I see the case that these are bad, but do not fully agree.
#69 I don't see why you bring it up

In conclusion, some of these cases have merit, but there is much towny behavior from Maxous that I really can't see him as scum.

I asked because it popped into my head at the time and I was curious what it meant.
I've never gotten a definite answer and I didn't want to take the time to check the wiki lol.

Oh you mean Pine hasn't actually been defending him?
Your question of the evidence behind NS scum is soft-defending him?

OH WELL PARDON FUCKING ME.
I'M JUST A LOWLY FUCKING JOAT WHO KNOWS THAT KoC DIDN'T FUCKING INVESTIGATE NS.

This claim is the other reason that you are high on my scumlist. An easy way out of being highly suspected. If it is true, it removes every reason for not voting for NS. However, you earlier claimed VT in 1162. Changing claims like this is scummy, and the way you kept soft claiming until forced is scummy as well. So this claim is not too believable. And if the claim is false, then not voting NS is the correct choice. Now, I do not see a Zepher/NS scumteam here, so this appears to be a straight 1 for 1 situation.

@Toon
I want to avoid claiming my role 100%, but smart town should be able to figure out my other two actions.

Ummm... this is also hellishly scummy. If smart town can figure out the other two actions, then so can smart scum. So why the FFFFF are you not claiming?! Oh, I think I can guess the remaining powers, but this is still horrible. If you are town, there is a thread in MD about claiming that you obviously never read. If you are scum, keep doing this, cuz itll get you lynched nice and fast.

@silver
Because it's easier then not claiming and having people suspect you for it.

Yeah, because changing your claim afterwards is not suspicious at all.[/sarcasm]

@Maxous 1227: I completely agree. All of his actions are scummy as heck.

[nhammen]

So, on the one hand, Zepher's claim is not very believable, but on the other hand, standard practice in a 1 for 1 is to lynch the non-power role. We have 2 days left, so I would like NS to claim before the lynch, if possible.

[nhammen]

Since I am the only unclaimed person here, I'm going to claim VT right now. Sorry to disappoint Pine, apparently there is no Doctor.

[nhammen]

So... they are both claiming power roles. How convenient. I can't believe they are both lying. But with how scummy they both have been, at least one must be. So, which one is lying?

Wait! NS, you are bulletproof? Bulletproof should play to draw the mafia kill! You have been lurking your ass off, and playing hellishly scummy. That's not the way a bulletproof plays.

[nhammen]

I told you all that Maxous was obvtown! But it does look like Toon was the mafia kill and Max the vig kill, because there is no way that mafia would kill Max, a player that only one person thought was town.

Could it be a Pine Zepher scumteam? Pine claiming to block Zepher to remove suspicion from him? Hmm... But Pine raises a good point about Zepher's shifting claims. Would Pine scum bus a partner with good arguments like that? I will reread.. tomorrow, and look at an exhaustive list of possible connections.


Edit: Nice timing from Pine. Nice WIFOM as well.

[nhammen]

Given that if Uite was scum and Pine was town, Uite would have hammered, Uite can only be scum if Pine is scum. If Uite is town, this leaves three players: Pine, Zepher, and Silver.
Thus, the possible scum combinations are Pine/Uite, Pine/Zepher, Pine/Silver, and Zepher/Silver. I will now do an in-depth reread of each of these four possibilities to determine which are likely and which are not. Note that only one possibility does not contain Pine. Thus it is most likely the case that it is Pine that is scum. However, I would prefer not to vote until completing my analysis.

[nhammen]

Sorry, about that reread. I got sidetracked and then helped someone move. And then I found out they hadn't signed their F-ing lease yet, so why did they want me to help them yet!!! FFFFFFFFFFFF

Anyways, I will get on that after lunch.

[nhammen]

I keep procrastinating on this, because it is such hard work. But I need to stop procrastinating. Especially since I just finished finals, so have no reason to continue procrastinating. So I will not go home until I finish, even if it means I skip meals. I need to remove all forms of procrastination and actually do what I promised 3 days ago. Someone needs to do this work. So expect a big wall in about 3 hours (estimated time of arrival). If you don't see such a wall, someone needs to start whipping me, lol.

[nhammen]

These were written over a loooong period of time. At some times I was writing it as though considering them to be scum first while planning to look back later for absurdities, and at others I was analysing as I went. Didn't reread Day 5, as I figure that information is all fresh.

General Pine data (since he is in 3 of the pairings, these apply to all 3):
First note, if Pine is scum, then he bussed both Amor and DK (after they both came under suspicion). And bussed DK HARD with a counterclaim. This has an implication: he has no qualms about bussing buddies. So if he had a buddy that came under suspicion, we should expect to see Pine bussing or distancing if he is scum.
Pine iso #61 Pine asks to be lynched to reduce WIFOM. Is this in itself WIFOM? Seems odd.
Pine iso #78 Pine says that he never caught KoC as cop. Why point it out, unless he wants people to know, I could neeevver have been the one to do this kill wink wink.
Pine iso #100 Without the last line, this would be a good defence. With the last line, he is playing to his meta.

An oddity: Zeph iso #48 Could there be something there? Didn't know which pairing to put this under.

Zepher's claimstravaganza:
Zeph iso #96 VT claim
Zeph iso #100 JOAT claim
Zeph iso #101 3 actions: 2 of which were no actions
Zeph iso #111 only 2 actions. It was another gambit.

Pine/Uite:
Early Pine is everywhere, and early Uite is nowhere. Not easy to read for connections.
Uite iso #4 Uite considered Pine to be town early on day 1. Does not indicate ,uch at this point.
Uite iso #5 Uite had the first real DK vote, when silver was the prime wagon and Amor was the secondary. So scum Uite bussed DK when there are no votes on DK, and there is a good target for scum to go after, and someone else that could be good for bussing. Could be distancing from a buddy that looks like he would go down D2, but unlikely. Seems scum would either be pushing a counterwagon or bussing at this point.
Pine iso #27, #29, and [urlhttp://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p ... 5#p3050845]#36[/url] Pine has arguments for both Mastin/silver and sub/silver 1 for 1s, which sounds like something scum would do to try to get townies lynched. However, the arguments concerning Mastin seem to come from a town perspective. Additionally, when both Mastin and sub turned up town, Pine did NOT push on these 1 for 1s like scum would have.

Pine iso #62

Pine claims to have targeted Uite on Night 1. Would scum Pine claim to have blocked a buddy on N1? Distancing?
Pine iso #84 and #85 Then he tries to push a lynch on Uite. At a time when there are no votes on Uite other than Pine. This is in fact the first vote on Uite in this entire game, even though Uite has not been even close to active. It is a nice time to distance. But I don't see much coming the other way at this point. In fact, I don't see anything from Uite yet, other than an early attack against DK.
Pine iso #96 Pine jumps eagerly onto Zepher's Mastin as SK theory. A little too eagerly. Scum love to have an excuse to go SK hunting. Note that Pine takes this and runs with it like crazy.
Pine iso #108 Pine says "OK, I'm done distancing now."
Pine iso #118 Hey, Uite's all smart and stuff, and I have nothing against him wink wink. Note that from here, neither Pine nor Uite mention each other for TWO WEEKS even after discounting the days that were Night.
Pine iso #187 A small note that Uite is still town.
Uite iso #30 Hi guys! I know that the last time I mentioned Pine was almost a month ago, but now I think he is scum because everyone else thinks so! I'm also gonna set up a chain lynch so I can get a townie lynched after bussing, ok y'all.
After this, Pine has to believe that Uite is town from either alignment, so not much can be said here. Note that they have very rarely mentioned each other. There are a few instances when their mentions make no sense as scum, but for the most part it is consistent.

Pine/Zepher:
Pine iso #27, #29, and [urlhttp://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p ... 5#p3050845]#36[/url] Pine has arguments for both Mastin/silver and sub/silver 1 for 1s, which sounds like something scum would do to try to get townies lynched. However, the arguments concerning Mastin seem to come from a town perspective. Additionally, when both Mastin and sub turned up town, Pine did NOT push on these 1 for 1s like scum would have.
Zeph iso #27 Zepher never really mentioned Pine on Day 1. In fact a CTRL-F of Zepher's iso shows that the only D1 references to Pine are some vote counts and one post mentioning how Amor had already commented on Pine appearing scummy. That's it. For all of D1. And then the first mention of Pine is saying hey this counterclaim could be taken either way.
Zeph iso #30 Has Pine claimed already? Seriously, when you just commented on the claim? Either this is really dumb town, or scum playing dumb. Not sure if a scumbuddy would do this.
Zeph iso #32 "DK claimed Surye and Pine to be scum with him and Amor. Amor was obviously going to be on that list, and since Surye has since then flipped town, I wouldn't doubt Pine being town either."
Zeph iso #34 Zepher points out where Pine could be scum, when nobody is going after Pine. Distancing?
Pine iso #91 Pine's first mention of Zepher ALL GAME LONG occurs on Day 3. Would Pine point out that a scummate had had no real pressure all game?
Zeph iso #40 Zepher brings up the infamous Mastin is third party theory. This has scum hallmarks all over it.
Pine iso #96 Pine jumps eagerly onto Zepher's Mastin as SK theory. Was this planned out to put suspicion on to mastin? Or did they both just happen to honestly believe this? Note: scum love to have an excuse to go SK hunting. Also note: Pine takes this and runs with it like crazy.
Zeph iso #42 Zepher still "pursuing" Pine, even though nobody is joining him. Also note the mention of mastin.
Pine iso #109 An excuse to chainsaw for a buddy?
Zeph iso #54 Still pursuing Pine. Weakly. Looks a lot like distancing at this point.
Pine iso #129 This is a weird discussion for scumbuddies to be having... Wouldn't a scumbuddy just ignore this? Could be very weak distancing. Whatever it is, it is a very very soft accusation. Extremely soft.
Zeph iso #69 Soft defence of Pine when he finally comes under pressure? What happened to him being your top suspect? You know, when nobody else was attacking him. Suddenly others go after him, and you are like no, he was just being dumb. This looks bad.
Pine iso #158, #160, and #161 Attacking Zepher, when nobody else is. That part of it looks like distancing. But the way it was done... seems kind of a weird way to attack a buddy. Also, kinda late game for distancing. Seems odd from this perspective. From here, he continues to bus Zepher, when it really isn't necessary. Most of the other play from these two looks like it could come from buddies, but the way this push was made is odd.
Pine iso #193 Votes for Zepher after Zepher's JOAT claim. Honestly doesn't like a bad claim? Or bussing a buddy? (or both? lol)
Pine iso #200 Pine tells Toon to vig Zepher if NS flips town, which Pine would know NS would flip as in this situation. What? Wait. If Pine and Zepher are scum together, they could have RBed Toon again, and then claimed to have blocked Zepher! I see. Clever.

Pine/silver:
Pine iso #20 Meta case on silver early in the game. This is actually a good way to distance, because its hard to give too many details on a null argument, but it still appears genuine, so as to fool everyone else.
Pine iso #21, #22, and #23 More attacks on silver. That could be many things at this point. Silver took the attacks from Pine calmly.

Pine iso #27, #29, and #36

Pine has arguments for both Mastin/silver and sub/silver 1 for 1s, which is NOT something scum would do with a buddy. This is the opposite of intelligent scum tactics. It practically confirms two townies if the buddy gets lynched and if the town players were to flip town, then you are inclined to lynch the other end of the one for one. Just this right here blows Pine/silver right out of the water.
silver iso #48 Isn't mentioning someone as one of a few slight suspicions considered a buddy tell? But in light of the above, its a bit of a stretch.
silver iso #59 Oh, and pine is a suspect too.
silver iso #64 Amor: "overall read: town... what's the case on him again?"
Pine iso #77 silver is still scum, but now I'm removing the 1 for 1 I thought of earlier. Now, if mastin dies, I have an excuse not to lynch silver.
Pine iso #78 Pine is concerned with the silver town implies Pine scum statement from mastin. Note, town has reason to be concerned, and scum has reason to be concerned if silver is town, but if both are town, there is no reason to be concerned. Still more holes in the Pine/silver theory.
Pine iso #81 This could be Pine being paranoid that his entire team has been caught... but that's a stretch
silver iso #71 Aaaand silver self destructs. For silver to be scum, this has to be a WIFOM gambit. I can see this possibility.
Pine iso #85, #89, and #91 Pine repeatedly (very repeatedly) says Silver's self destructive attitude can't be scum. Well, it's either honest, or they are gambiting HARD. Note that sub has already flipped. At this point, if Pine wanted to bus, he could follow up on those supposed one for ones, but instead he keeps up his townread.
Pine iso #96 Pine jumps eagerly onto Zepher's Mastin as SK theory. A little too eagerly. Scum love to have an excuse to go SK hunting. Note that Pine takes this and runs with it like crazy.
Pine iso #111 Note that if they are gambiting, it gives a good excuse to chainsaw for a buddy.
Pine iso #114 This could be asking a scumbuddy to stop self-destructing...
Pine iso #125 Some kind of argument here. Could be some form of coaching without looking like it, but whatever it is, Pine is trying to improve silver's play.
silver iso #93 and #95 silver votes for Pine when Pine comes under attack, and then drops the vote when it looks like others will drop it too. This looks pretty bad, from this viewpoint.
silver iso #105 Very awkward argument. Again, Pine is arguing without attacking, but this time silver attacks lightly.
silver iso #112 An argument that culminates in a faulty vote on Pine. For this to be scum v scum, this would need to be staged. Not a chance.

Zepher/silver:
Zeph iso #8 Zepher says silver is ridiculous town, but maybe I'm wrong...
Zeph iso #15 Zepher says silver is being pushed by scum, but it's still hard to understand what silver is saying.
Zeph iso #16 "Also with the Silver wiggling room thing, that was my roundabout way of saying I'm not really sure on my read.
I want to think Silver is town, yes, but there are doubts. Hence why there's room for that to change."
Zeph iso #18 OK, the silver and sub wagons are definitely dumb! (after both players have been confirmed by a role)
silver iso #64 Amor: "overall read: town... what's the case on him again?"
Zeph iso #27 Zepher says that this counterclaim could be taken either way. Wanting to see if people are cool with piling on a town PR?
Zeph iso #32 "I still want to think that Silver is town. I'd have to see play outside of the whole sub vs. silver thing."
silver iso #71 Aaaand silver self destructs. For silver to be scum, this has to be a WIFOM gambit. I can see this possibility.
Zeph iso #34 "it's VERY difficult for scum to manufacture emotion laced post like Silver's. This is in no way a confirmation for me that he's town" This is more solid of an attitude than earlier, but he still insists on leaving an out.
Zeph iso #40 Zepher brings up the infamous Mastin is third party theory. This has scum hallmarks all over it.
Zeph iso #54 Zepher still "not tempted to lynch Silver." Whatever that means.
silver iso #98 silver's first real mention of Zepher occus on DAY 4! F-ing day 4! Only 1 previous mention and that was essentially "I'm glad Zepher will be playing better." That's it. Try isoing and CTRL-F. It's nuts.
silver iso #107 silver puts Zepher right at the middle of his list.
silver iso #122 silver points out the flaws in Zepher's claim. Could be that he thought he would need to bus because of the inconsistent claim.
silver iso #124 "Crap I've gotta bus!"

Conclusion:
Pine/Zepher looks likely, since they were both ignoring each other D1, and then started weak attacks on each other. Until Pine came under pressure and Zeph started soft defending him.
Zepher/silver looks likely, since Zepher waffled on silver for a while, and silver ignored Zepher until DAY 4. Not sure which of these two is higher.
Pine/Uite is possible, but not quite as likely as the two pairs above.
Pine/silver has no chance in hell. Plain and simple. Other than silver iso #93 and #95, all of the evidence for this pairing is a stretch.

Gotta go, it is 9PM. Bye.

[nhammen]

Well, I believe that Pine/silver is practically impossible. So that leaves 3 possibilities: Pine/Uite, Pine/Zepher, and Zepher/silver. Thus, if Pine flips scum, then silver is conf town, and if Zepher flips scum, then Uite is conf town. I will not support a lynch on anybody other than Pine or Zepher, because the possibilities I have shown mean that these two are strictly more likely to be scum than others. Note, if it is Pine/Zepher, this logic guarantees a scum lynch. Thus, the choice between Zepher and Pine depends on two things: whether I believe Pine/Uite or Zepher/silver is more likely, and whether I believe that Pine or Zepher would have a Power Role that can be damaging in scum hands. Again, if it is Pine/Zepher, then all other players were telling the truth about being VT. Thus any scum PRs in this case are ineffective. So, if it is Pine/Uite, could Pine's scum PR (probably RB) have any effect on anything, and if it is Zepher/silver, could Zepher have a scum PR that negates Pine's RB? I find these possibilities of scum PRs unlikely (Pine's RB could only have any effect as scum if a town player lied about their role, and Zepher would have to have some sort of unstoppable kill, which is possible, but it is pure speculation). Thus, the problem reduces to a determination of the likelihood of the two pairs mentioned above: Pine/Uite or Zepher/silver. Which depends not only on the likelihood of the pairings, but the scumminess of the players involved. As a pairing, Zepher/silver looks more likely to be scum, but individually, Pine looks more likely to be scum. I do not want to vote yet, because I want to hear what other players think of my ideas before I make any decision.

[nhammen]

VOTE: silverbullet999

[nhammen]

No need to shout. Just take everything calmly and logically.

Also, he was faking. There is no way the mod would obey that even if he was serious. And notice, the mod did nothing about this. So even if this tactic was legit (which it wasn't), it had nothing to do with your loss.

[nhammen]

Honestly, I was thinking that the decision for today was between bussing or going after the other common denominator. That silver thing came quite nicely out of the blue. I even said that I would not support a silver lynch.

Uite, I would think that logically, the situation was the same for you as the fake-town me, but with Pine/nham replacing Pine/Uite. Thus, logically you should also have only been voting Pine or Zepher. What caused you to vote silver?

It was fake, because he knew the mod wouldn't do it. The rules say prod first.

[nhammen]

Also, when I was doing that mega-analysis, I was glad I was not analyzing Pine/nham as well, because if you look back, that pairing was obvious. A bit too obvious; I need to change my scum playstyle just in case a townie does that sort of analysis on me.

When people saw I left myself out of that analysis, someone should have jumped up and done the work themselves.

[nhammen]

Especially with your lurking and waiting to quickhammer when a second vote went down on a Townie.

I was not lurking to wait for a quickhammer, I was lurking because I didn't want to put any work in, and I had stupidly told everyone I would put an IMMENSE amount of work in, so I had to do that. That megapost took me a total of 9 hours over 3 days to write.

[nhammen]

I guess the hard work payed off in the end. It made me look really townie. And I was pretty happy about the fact that I faked a town viewpoint throughout the post. I would have had to change it up a bit if it made Zepher/silver look unlikely, but the fact that silver hadn't mentioned Zepher until Day 4 played right into my hands.

[nhammen]

I see. How had you eliminated Pine/Zepher? I thought my fake-town post had made a good point for that pairing.

[nhammen]

I liked the name. As soon as the Third Wheel Mason flipped, I was like "Oohhhh! That's why it's called Tricycle! Cuz of the lovers and the third-wheel."

BTW, I will be taking a month and a half long hiatus from mafia to study for prelims. Maybe I will be able to be more active upon my return.