Dynasty Warriors Mafia (Shu Victorious)

[elvis_knits]

HI! Let's see if I remember how to do this...

/confirm

[elvis_knits]

HI! Let's see if I remember how to do this...

/confirm

When was the last time you played?

I think it's been like a year. I see some thing haven't changed. RayFrost is still... RayFrost.

I'm kind of excited to still know a fair amount of people here. <3

[elvis_knits]

I think I get what we are supposed to do... and I have found scum! So now I should convince the town and then duel that person to death, right?

If you've found two scum then convince the town an then we have the two people die in a duel against each other.

OMG. Rayfrost is right. (sorry i can't stop razzing you! <3) Except I don't think both people die in a duel against each other.

If I am understanding the mechanic right, a player posts "DUEL: THATGUY" and then we have to lynch one of them and only one of them. I can see a scum exploiting that. They can challenge a person to a duel and then their buddies push the mislynch. I mean, maybe that's too obvious, but if they're skilled they could get away with it.

I say:
We decide together who our two top suspects are and force them to duel (and anybody who refuses to duel will be auto-lynched by the town via some townie who volunteers to duel them -- an enforcer perhaps nominated by the town). We should only have two scummy people dueling each other. No townie should take it upon themselves to duel someone they think is scum

Actually, NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNLESS THE MAJORITY OF US AGREE TO IT.

That way we have as many people getting on record about potential duels as possible. We get more info this way, and hopefully town keeps control over who is in the duel, and then who gets lynched. Also we're guaranteed to have our two scummiest players in a duel.

Possible downside is the D ability thing. If scum win a duel they could get access to extra abilities. But if we see extra death after a duel, or something funny going on, then we know who to blame. So it might help us catch scum in the long run even though it could be bad/dangerous in the short term. And I think the pros of controlling the duel and getting info by everyone commenting on it, I think that outweighs this con. But speak up if I'm not foreseeing all possibilities, please!

Anyway, people, please comment on this strategy.

AGAIN: NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNTIL WE DECIDE.

[elvis_knits]

Also,

vote:myko

[elvis_knits]

Actually, looking at the rules, maybe we don't have to duel every day? We can lynch normally OR duel?

We have to think about the implications of dueling verses lynching old-fashioned way.

[elvis_knits]

Oh... I was supposed to read the signup thread?

Here I was thinking I was cool...

Okay basically you're saying we want to:

Try to duel as much as possible to either kill two scum at once or empower a townie.

This assumes best case scenario. What if we end up killing two townies or empowering scum? I'm not sure I want to commit to this strategy throughout the game. I don't think I want to commit to a double lynch on the first day. I like to see a flip and look at the wagons for info. I really like playing aggressively, so a double lynch is pretty awesome, but I think we have to be smart about this too.

I think that it might be better to make two scummy players duel, make them both claim, kill one and try to confirm the other's night actions, or something like that. And then if we catch scum via this process of keeping tabs on the empowered guy, we can lynch him the next day, maybe in a double lynch duel.

I think a lot of that really depends on the circumstances of who is up for duel and how scummy I think they are.

[elvis_knits]

Actually, NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNLESS THE MAJORITY OF US AGREE TO IT.

No. SPYREX made this game and it was obviously meant to be played SPYREX style. The problem with the "majority of us" is that scum are in the majority, and can thus influence the decision.

I propose: if you are OBVTOWN, you are permitted to duel and/or order other people to duel. If you are NOT OBVTOWN, you are not permitted to start duels and/or order other people to duel. OBVTOWN people will form an alliance and work together to find scumz.

I'm not liking this at all. Who is coming up with the list of obvtown? You? You propose we give certain players license to duel and force others to duel and not others? No way. We rule by majority, like always in a mafia game. Yeah there are scum among us, but there always is. You trust some players more than others depending how scummy you see them. And you work with everyone in order to catch them doing scummy stuff. Like always.

I am an aggressive player and I love fast bold moves and games. I'm all in. But we have to think about what we're doing too. I have been in other games with similar mechanics that result in more than one player dead each day (like dynamite or something), and if you don't watch your arse you can lose a bunch of people in nothing flat and sometimes not have enough to go off in terms of getting other player's opinions. Then you're really in the hole, and scum are laughing. I'm not sure I want a double death on D1. I want to see a flip before committing to that amount of risk.

Whatever we do: I want every player to weigh in on who they want to duel and and why, if they want two dead or one, and who they want to lynch and why. We need that info to stack up over the days.

And no fucking way should any town player challenge anybody to a duel without a majority agreement. No fucking way. It is anti-town to act on something irreversible like deciding the duel for the town. We will get much more info if everyone decides together.

[elvis_knits]

We decide together who our two top suspects are and force them to duel (and anybody who refuses to duel will be auto-lynched by the town via some townie who volunteers to duel them

And this is why...'self hammer or else we lynch you'. Rarely a good idea.

Explain. I don't see your pov.

It will probably be a good idea to ask permission before you duel.

I hope you mean ask the town's permission and not the other person's.

Oh and important : Have the person suspected claim before you declare a duel.

Claim before dueling? I guess that's okay if the person in question has majority of suspicion. I just don't want someone being like "Hey Mister I want to duel you so you should claim."

I would be of the opinion if somebody wants to duel and we trust them, let them do it. If nobody wants to duel then simply lynch.

DISAGREE. I don't want lynching power in any one person's hands. We decide by committee because it's harder for scum to take control completely away. Also, I want everybody in on everything so we have voting patterns and things like that to look back on later. More info = better.

[elvis_knits]

So far I see:

Scummiest:
Myko for wanting to charge in and duel
AlmasterG for convoluted reasoning why we should not let majority rule
Maxous for promoting the idea that if we "trust" someone we give them free reign to duel
Amrun 59 gives me slight scum twinge by saying he was calling bastard scum as a "joke"

It has been my experience that in games like this where there are strategies that CLEARLY benefit scum, and some people push these strategies, THEY ARE SCUM.

vote myko

[elvis_knits]

Your theory of how to play the game is wrong and benefits scum.

Actually, yours is!

[elvis_knits]

OMG inhim.

...

Let's say for example we the town determine Amrun and Juls to be the two most likely players to be mafia. We tell them to duel each-other and we will kill them both. If they don't do this we will lynch them one after the other.
Alas, it turns out Juls is town. If she calls this duel then she would be allowing herself as town to die without people lynching her (this is the equivalent of self-hammering as town) and therefore we get little info out of the lynch/death as opposed to analysing who voted to be her lynched.
That is why it is actually a bad move as town.

But I want people to be voted into dueling. I want duels to come as a result of a majority decision via voting for duel candidates. So we do get a lot of info. Whatever we end up doing, I want as many people taking definitive stances as possible so that we have as much info as possible.

I can understand why players wouldn't want to die, as we all want to live and win, but if there is enough support for a lynch, then I think players have to be willing to duel. It's the mechanic of the game.

...

Juls 83 is good idea. If you're town about to be lynched, duel someone you want to empower.

Juls 105 pure gold.

...

Magister Ludi thinking rayFrost is scummy is... scummy. Also mentioning toasty as possibly scummy is... scummy. (I'm not seeing toasty as scum) Then saying he never said toasty was scum... is scummier.

...

Amrun's DK vote seems sort of pathetic given the amount of more important stuff going on. Fly-under-the-radar type vote.

...

I have no knowledge of the flavor of this game, and I am glazing over about it. Did Magister Ludi make a slip? If yes, I would not be surprised as his play this far seemed scummy already.

...

Myko 141 OMGUS votes me

But it does show something: elvis is starting out passively. Caps don't help either, as she is just explaining with them that antitown = scum to her. She knows I'm not antitown.

There has been nothing passive about my play. I've been one of the most active posters so far, and I wanted to start voting even in pregame. What about that is passive? I am arguing strongly that I don't want scum like you floating the idea that town should be idiots and duel whoever and whenever they please.

confirm vote: myko

There has been some speculation about scum numbers in this game. This is what I think:

There is probably a low number of scum. The mechanic of this game is geared for a lot of early town deaths if we charge off and duel like crazy people. Double-lynch games need lower scum numbers. Also, there are probably scum PR's that can get empowered, which would also support lower scum numbers. Basically, scum want us to double-duel lynch between townies, or they want to duel with a townie and get empowered themselves. I'm not saying that anyone who wants to get empowered is scum, but I am saying that people who get empowered need to be scrutinized and held accountable if possible.

...

I STRONGLY disagree with allowing any supposedly obvtown minority to have more control over duels than others. That reads to me like a recipe for disaster. One reason is scum can sometimes fool us, you know. Another reason is that letting everyone participate equally lets you see who is making scummy moves.

...

I STRONGLY disagree with more than one dead guy for today. I say lynch or duel. Duel is probably more fun I guess, so I can go with that. But I only want one death. I want to see a flip and look at wagons before I agree to a double-death duel. And no fucking way do I agree to gammagoey double-double death explosion.

[elvis_knits]

Scumlist:
Myko
Ludi
AGM
Max
Amrun

[elvis_knits]

Greyice:

This position and subsequent repeated ploys to convince the town that supposed obvtown players should be able to control the duel, and should be able to start a duel without majority agreement.

Actually, NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNLESS THE MAJORITY OF US AGREE TO IT.

No. SPYREX made this game and it was obviously meant to be played SPYREX style. The problem with the "majority of us" is that scum are in the majority, and can thus influence the decision.

I propose: if you are OBVTOWN, you are permitted to duel and/or order other people to duel. If you are NOT OBVTOWN, you are not permitted to start duels and/or order other people to duel. OBVTOWN people will form an alliance and work together to find scumz.

[elvis_knits]

Bastard 168... have you played a game here yet? Might want to read the wiki and a few newbie games...

C-worl 169 - NO. Are you a VI?

If YOU DUEL ANYONE WITHOUT MAJORITY APPROVAL I WILL LUST FOR YOUR LYNCH LIKE A HORNY TEENAGER.

This goes for anybody. Dueling without discussion and majority approval is scummy.

@inhim - game where scum tried to manipulate the public mechanic earlygame http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =dollhouse

@DK, everyone on my scum lists is people I've been talking about, so read my posts.

I guess I'll respond to myko in a separate post...

[elvis_knits]

Juls 83 is good idea. If you're town about to be lynched, duel someone you want to empower.

Elvis is either ignorant or scum here (hint, scum). This is this games equivalent of a selfhammer. Which means this is hardly a clear cut situation.

Please get a grip. It's a good idea. Maybe not in every situation, but generally, as an option, yes, it's a good idea for a dying town to try to empower a townie. When you can do nothing to prevent your death, help the town on the way down.

Magister Ludi thinking rayFrost is scummy is... scummy. Also mentioning toasty as possibly scummy is... scummy. (I'm not seeing toasty as scum) Then saying he never said toasty was scum... is scummier.

elvis can't remain behind when everybody else thinks Ludi is scummy!

Well... I do think he's scummy. If you're trying to say I'm only doing it because everyone else is, the only thing I can tell you is I have unique reasoning which suggests I am being honest. Do you disagree that Ludi is scummy?

Amrun's DK vote seems sort of pathetic given the amount of more important stuff going on. Fly-under-the-radar type vote.

We needed some mud slung to Amrun too.

I call stuff I think is scummy. Problem? Do you think I am wrong, or you just don't like me suspecting people?

I have no knowledge of the flavor of this game, and I am glazing over about it. Did Magister Ludi make a slip? If yes, I would not be surprised as his play this far seemed scummy already.

Making absolutely clear she can hop on the wagon.

First of all, I will hope on whatever wagon I want. Second, I already thought he was scummy based on above, so get a grip. Third, I'm still voting you.

and then this gem:

Myko 141 OMGUS votes me

But it does show something: elvis is starting out passively. Caps don't help either, as she is just explaining with them that antitown = scum to her. She knows I'm not antitown.

There has been nothing passive about my play. I've been one of the most active posters so far, and I wanted to start voting even in pregame. What about that is passive? I am arguing strongly that I don't want scum like you floating the idea that town should be idiots and duel whoever and whenever they please.

confirm vote: myko

It is true that she had her vote on me already, but that wasn't that odd, seen that I was the first wagon of the game. Meaning OMGUS is a very odd acronym to use in this situation. Further, Elvis is very quick in strawmanning the passivity argument there. Activity has nothing to do with aggressivity, and Elvis has clearly been holding back in all those posts of her. Just check the above mentioned statements about Ludi. Sure he is very scummy, and he probably made a slip, but I'm going to wait for confirmation from you guys if it really really was a slip.

YOU WERE THE FIRST WAGON OF THE GAME AFTER I VOTED YOU FIRST! Also, it got up to FOUR. In a game with 20 players. You scared?

It is also quite ridiculous to call me passive this game! I didn't vote Ludi yet. SO what? I want you dead, and I really have no idea about the slip thing so I'm waiting to hear more about it... just like you are! You're asking the same thing I asked, if the slip was real.

I STRONGLY disagree with allowing any supposedly obvtown minority to have more control over duels than others. That reads to me like a recipe for disaster.

One reason is scum can sometimes fool us, you know.

Another reason is that letting everyone participate equally lets you see who is making scummy moves.

This is becoming a standard scumtell for me. Scum's biggest fear is suddenly being opposed by a large block of townies who have found each other. The above is only stating what

you shouldn't trust anybody

.

You know, I actually do try to find townies I agree with in every game, so I understand the sentiment, and I understand that naturally players trust some players more than others. But I think it is REALLY BAD FUCKING NEWS to confirm people as obvtown based on gut and then let them run the show.

I STRONGLY disagree with more than one dead guy for today. I say lynch or duel. Duel is probably more fun I guess, so I can go with that. But I only want one death. I want to see a flip and look at wagons before I agree to a double-death duel. And no fucking way do I agree to gammagoey double-double death explosion.

Town wants more shots at scum. You wouldn't no lynch either in a normal game, nor would you hold your day-1-dayvig shot. This is just scum protecting her team and pulling the breaks on the town.

confirm vote Elvis

If you can guarantee me two double-scum, double-death duels, I would agree to this. That would be awesome, myko, let's kill four scum today! Fuck yeah, you're my homey! Let's do this shit!

The reality of this is that we don't have enough information to kill off a quarter of the players in this game.

Actually,

MOD, ARE PLAYER ALIGNMENTS REVEALED UPON DEATH OR END OF DAY?

I mean, if we want to have gamma duel somebody, see their flip, and then reduel accordingly, that could be okay. I just don't want us being stupid.

[elvis_knits]

If YOU DUEL ANYONE WITHOUT MAJORITY APPROVAL I WILL LUST FOR YOUR LYNCH LIKE A HORNY TEENAGER.

Screaming for town cred.

Unvote; Vote: elvis_knits

Am I too pro-town for you? Sorry.

Seriously. We need to have a no tolerance policy for people taking duels into their own hands.

And you know what, you want to be all stupid and allow that shit? Fine. But when you get down to lylo, you are going to have to lynch those people who took dueling into their own hands. Some of those people will be scum, some will be VI's, and some will be headstrong town. So you have your work cut out for you winning this game. And along the way you are letting scum, VI's and headstrong town decide the lynches. Seem good to you?

[elvis_knits]

Well I think theory is important because 1)scum push anti-town strategy; and 2)we can't let anti-town strategy rule the game (even when coming from mistaken town).

I haven't focused on theory totally. I also think amrun is giving off a little scummy vibes (first back off somehting as a joke, then voting DK in the midst of much important discussion), I think Ludi's suspicion of RF and toasty was really ridiculous. I also am undecided about the greyice thing. He asks me why I think AGM is scum (can't he build his own case?), then when AGM calls him scum he votes AGM. I also think he had a line in there about loving death, which made me uncomfortable.

I don't know, I can try to look at things without considering mechanics at all to perhaps give myself some perspective on the larger picture -- but i really feel strongly about the mechanics. I am absolutely certain that we can find scum pushing the anti-town strategy. We need to pressure those people to find out which ones are scum.

[elvis_knits]

The list is pretty much from scummiest to least scummy. I will probably summarize as I go along, and repeat reasons, I just didn't want to clog the thread unnecessarily, or spend too much time doing something just for you (as lovely as you may be )

I don't mean to be difficult; I will explain more on people as needed, but I'm trying to put it all out there anyway.

[elvis_knits]

Query @elvis_knits. Differentiate mykonian as wrong versus mykonian as scum.

It might not seem like it, but I am trying to be generous and assume that some people advocating scummy strategy are just wrong.

That does not explain why Myko is consistently mis-characterizing me as "passive" and "holding back." I mean, ask yourself, do you think he could honestly think that?

Or why he is stomping on my suspicion on Ludi and Amrun without saying he thinks they're town or why he disagrees with me.

Or why he questions my treatment of Ludi (is that a slip?) while he does the same thing.

Or why he considered four votes on him a wagon. I guess technically it is, but it seems kind of like... not that huge a deal.

To be completely as devil's advocate as I can be, I would have to say Myko might be town if he was 1)wrong and reckless in his first suggestion to spring a duel; and 2)being arrogant and obnoxious in his reactions to me. I think it's more likely he's scum.

[elvis_knits]

ek

Post 31: I do not like the suggestion that two scum duel each other because it leaves open the possibility of empowering scum.

It was never my intention to empower a scummy player. I think my posts have been pretty clear about trying to limit scum control of duels. TBH, it will probably happen at some point though, maybe even as a result of your plan for a townie to empower someone they think is town. And I think that is unavoidable and I'm not too scared of it. We try not to empower scum, but if we do I tend to think we have a better chance at catching them. That's why I said that everyone who is empowered needs to be held accountable.

Post 65: Says "It has been my experience that in games like this where there are strategies that CLEARLY benefit scum, and some people push these strategies, THEY ARE SCUM.", but I could use this argument against you because post 31 is not exactly a pro-town suggestion.

You're really twisting my words if you're saying I was trying to suggest strategies that empower scum. Do you really think that's what I was trying to do?

Post 204: Minor, but I don't like that ek refers to town as "you" here instead of "we".

The post was a direct response to reaper. The "you" was reaper.

[elvis_knits]

Dislike this turn of events:

Max names Juls as one of his top suspects for not scumhunting
Juls answers without scumhunting
Max says he likes her answer and votes rayfrost

[elvis_knits]

Also dislike Bastard saying toasty and Iecerint are in scum position on Magister's wagon. First of all, they are two and three on the wagon, which seems early to me for traditional scum placement. Second on a wagon doesn't seem that opportunistic to me. I also feel like you have to assume Magister is town to be looking for the scum on that wagon already. And I really don't think Magister's done anything for anyone to feel comfortable assuming Magister is town.

I also dislike Bastard's refusal to vote and his poo-pooing of "quick" wagons. How are we supposed to play without voting? How are we supposed to play without pressuring and wagonning? (I've seen these stances as common newbie mistakes though... is this guy really that new? Does anyone know?)

I also dislike Magister coming in and voting Iecerint.

I guess I just find it odd for Bastard to be subtly defending Magister and suggesting iecerint is scum on his wagon and then Magister to pick up that seed and vote iecerint.

[elvis_knits]

I'm worried that some/all of the problem between Greyice and AGM is carryover of bad feelings from a previous game. I'd like it if they both tried to put the other game away and look at this one like an island, see if that changes anything.

[elvis_knits]

It was never my intention to empower a scummy player. I think my posts have been pretty clear about trying to limit scum control of duels. TBH, it will probably happen at some point though, maybe even as a result of your plan for a townie to empower someone they think is town. And I think that is unavoidable and I'm not too scared of it. We try not to empower scum, but if we do I tend to think we have a better chance at catching them. That's why I said that everyone who is empowered needs to be held accountable.

Your initial suggestion was to have the TWO most scummy players duel. Thereby killing one scum and

empowering the other

. So if player A and B are scummy players, A dies, B gets an ability and we will likely lynch B tomorrow cause, he is still scummy. Even if you do empower town, you are not going to lose your scummy read on them. So I don't like the strategy. I would have taken it at face value until you said people who propose plans that benefit scum are scummy. Which is EXACTLY what you did.

The intent was not to try to empower scum. It was more to give us a chance to choose between lynching two scummy people. Realistically, I think that if we put two scummy people up for duel, they're probably not actually both scum. I was hoping we'd kill the scum, not empower the scum.

I admit that I was not thinking about it as thoroughly as I should have. I think it should be clear though that I was coming from a good place and trying to benefit the town.

I can explain more what I was thinking. I also thought that if you take the two scummiest people for a duel, they will claim and then you decide if you want to empower one of them based on their role. Let's say their claim is convincing or you're not sure if they're faking or not, but they might be legit. You can empower them and either bump up a PR if they're being truthful, or force them into faking results and probably being caught much easier if they're scum. My thinking was if a scum ends up being empowered (even though we obviously don't WANT this) it actually gives us a better chance of catching them.

SO, this is totally not the way you were looking at duels. You were thinking we agree on who to lynch and then duel them to empower someone we think is town. I wasn't thinking that way.

You're really twisting my words if you're saying I was trying to suggest strategies that empower scum. Do you really think that's what I was trying to do?

This is the game of mafia where you are guilty until proven innocent.

There's a lot more subtlety than that and you know it.

The post was a direct response to reaper. The "you" was reaper.

Ah but you were referring to him as town-reaper. That town-reaper would have trouble winning the game. If you are town, why would you not say "we". As I said, it was minor, but noted.

You're right, I was thinking about reaper as town, and actually I was thinking about myself as being dead by that point if people are so against me and my POV. Note away though, I guess.

[elvis_knits]

Greyice - who else do you think is scum?

[elvis_knits]

Unvote Myko; vote Amrun

Amrun's contributions this game consists of:

-"joke" about the scumQT against bastard
-vote DK (while not commenting on any larger issues)
-vote Magister wagon (after multiple people pressure her to start scumhunting)
-string of vague comments about vague meta feelings

I see very few opinions on players (Maybe 5/20 and all these are vague).
I see no comments about game mechanic. Staying completely out of all attempts to strategize for town or get into any fights about strategy.
I have seen no scumhunting.

Please join me in this wagon whether or not you have hated me thus far in the game or not. Amrun needs your votes.

[elvis_knits]

In other news, elvis_knits switches suspects completely and begs for allies after getting pwnzored by mykionian. Scumtastic.

I'm trying to keep an open mind. Myko can't be the only scum.

I don't really care about allies. I care about getting votes on Amrun.

[elvis_knits]

P-edit: who pressured me to start scumhunting, elvis? P sure nobody did. And I stated why I got on the wagon and then why I got off. If you think I'm being opportunistic, how do you explain my vote on Deity Kabuto, who has no other votes? You're looking far more opportunistic than me atm.

Pretty sure I have been mentioning you since early game and others too (I can go look it up later, off the top of my head, Juls and Vi made comments about you). I said how I didn't like your DK vote and next post you vote Magister.

And I have never said your vote on DK was opportunistic. I thought it was you trying to fly-under-the-radar. I still think that's what it is. You're not commenting on any of the larger issues, but voting somebody nobody cares about and staying out of the heavy mud.

And now I am suddenly your number one suspect after I vote you.

[elvis_knits]

Amrun,

Please comment on the game mechanic and how you feel it should be used. Should we duel once today, twice? Who should be in those duels? Give more concrete opinions on people. Don't let meta be your primary (I'm okay with secondary, but not primary and sole reasoning).

xoxo,
Elvis

[elvis_knits]

Well we can have two today. Do you want to use them both? Who should be in them?

Still waiting on opinions that don't rely solely on vague meta reasons.

[elvis_knits]

I'm trying to keep an open mind. Myko can't be the only scum.

Agreed, but you aren't just pointing out other scumtells and generating a list of scum. You specifically appeal to people to forge a new wagon on someone else, which is basically saying, "Now stop looking there...and look over here!"

I'm just being honest that it is my intention to wagon people who are scummy and apply pressure to solidify reads. And I can't really wagon alone. Wagonning is a group activity.

Is your problem that you think I am trying to distract people from another wagon? Which one?

[elvis_knits]

I have recently been re-thinking theory and I'm not sure it's wise to share townreads, or at least details on why someone is town, unless they come under pressure, particularly in the beginnings of large games.

In the middle/end, it becomes imperative, but I think it's better to observe on the first day and question scumspects.

Or I'm trying that out, in the very least.

Why are you changing your play strategy about sharing town reads in a game specifically designed to encourage and reward town reads?

[elvis_knits]

What is your problem with me?

I don't see you ever giving even a hint of a reason, unless I missed it somehow.

[elvis_knits]

OK, so you don't like myko or amrun as scum, so you don't like me. Do you think my reasons are scummy or just wrong?

On the Ludi topic, I haven't liked him since the beginning even though I am still a bit confused about the flavor aspect. Let's go through this as if I am stupid.

Is this right:
Ludi assumed two three-man scum teams.

My question is: Do you think that scum would be told about another scum team? I haven't played in a while, and I think they more often would not be told, but maybe? I'm just asking to be sure it's even a possibility.

[elvis_knits]

@Gamma: I wouldn't mind if you pulled the trigger now and dueled someone. It gives us time to analyse it, and we aren't advancing that fast anymore anyway.

Yeah, let's kill someone, anyone, to liven things up.

HOW CAN PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE TOWN?

[elvis_knits]

My negative feelings against Myko and to some extent (AGM), has to do with my belief that scum will try to exploit this mechanic to their advantage. I remember two games in particular that have great bearing on my belief.

One was Dollhouse mini, (I linked before, but here it is again http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =dollhouse), where each day we lynched someone and could imprint them (AKA empower). The whole game hinged on scum finding ways to imprint/empower each other and prevent town from imprint/empower. You will see I took a similar strategy in that game and met with lots of opposition and bitching and moaning (some from scum, some from town). I did find scum on page one though because Deathnote wanted to "imprint everyone because it's fun playing with moar powerzlulz." You can see this play out in the first few pages even if you don't want to read too much.

The other game I am thinking of is Dynamite mafia (http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?t=8119). I think it was about this many players, where one player blew another player up each day (similar to this double-death duel). I was scum in that game, in a 3-man scum team. Only 3 scum in a large game because, as anticipated, town wasted several days blowing each other indiscriminately without majority consent, without discussion.

So I see this game as a combo of those two games that I played in. Scum want to be empowered, maybe even need to be empowered. But failing that they want town to be as reckless and as stupid as possible and go around killing each other. My play since the beginning of this game has been to prevent scum from getting away with this and try to discourage mistaken town from going along with it.

[elvis_knits]

blowing each other indiscriminately

I swear I didn't mean it that way...

lol

[elvis_knits]

Otherwise I'm just gonna choose whichever I think is best out of the wagons. (this is currently elvis.)

My "wagon" has two votes, one of which is your own.

[elvis_knits]

[elvis_knits]

ek

Post 396: What did AGM say to exploit the setup?
LOL

Actually, NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNLESS THE MAJORITY OF US AGREE TO IT.

No. SPYREX made this game and it was obviously meant to be played SPYREX style. The problem with the "majority of us" is that scum are in the majority, and can thus influence the decision.

I propose: if you are OBVTOWN, you are permitted to duel and/or order other people to duel. If you are NOT OBVTOWN, you are not permitted to start duels and/or order other people to duel. OBVTOWN people will form an alliance and work together to find scumz.

First of all... the argument that majority should not rule because scum are in the majority of us so they can influence the decision is... horrible. The whole point of this game is we don't know who the scum are, so we can't really cut them out of the process, and also letting everyone talk and participate is how we figure out who the scum are.

Second, it is a slippery slope to start giving some people more control than others. What happens if you have a good scum who people consider OBVTOWN? Then you have scum in total control of the duels, empowering themselves and/or their buddies, AND ordering townies to duel! And even if you correctly decide who a few OBVTOWN, town can be just wrong. I think the more input you have into things the better. Town are better together than apart.

[elvis_knits]

Furthermore, I am of the opinion that Elvis_knits must be lynched.

It would probably be easier if you just made this your new sig.

[elvis_knits]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun

- 5 - DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, GreyICE, RedCoyote, Vi - (L-6)

DietyKabuto

- 1 - Amrun - (L-10)

Drunken Unicorn Master

- 5 - RayFrost, InHimshallibe, Maxous, ToastyToast, Bastard Bros - (L-6)

elvis_knits

- 3 - Gammagooey, mykonian, AlmasterGM - (L-8)

GreyICE

- 2 - Juls, C-Worl - (L-9)

Iecerint

- 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)

Magister Ludi

- 2 - Iecerint, Drunken Unicorn Master - (L-9)

ToastyToast

- 1 - Katsuki - (L-10)

Players not voting:

None

^^^ Yeah, also three posts ago I brought up your scummy comments again, so you better revote me.

[elvis_knits]

Ok so I have been trying to let my scumlist breathe for a few days and see if it changes anything. I decided to try to include everyone in a scumspectrum. I've tried to give explanation on stuff I felt needed it. But some stuff I've probably beat to death at this point. Anyway, I will clarify more as needed.

Scum

Amrun
Magister
AGM
Myko
Toasty I was blinded by buddying

Vi

Viputer - reads very different from mine, no help with strategy (and shouldn't Vi be able to help since it is a very strategic player?)

Low-volume posters and/or VI-ish

(don't feel particularly scummy about them, but having trouble reading)
Katsuki - have virtually no memory of this person
DK
GreyIce - I've been hoping for something that doesn't have to do with hating AGM from a previous game
C-worl - how Vi has a read on this guy, I have no idea

Neutral, slight town

Gamma
Bastard
RF
DUM
Maxous (keeping note of weird interaction between Max and Juls though Posts 209-220; my suspicion explained Post 270)
Juls

Town

Inhim
RedCoyote
Iecerint

[elvis_knits]

Myko,

You know, you might turn this into just another reason to say I'm scum, but FWIW, I did decide that your quote about wanting to duel was not as horrible as I originally thought it was. (AGM much worse, actually.) It seems like maybe you intended to convince the town before dueling. Which was something that escaped me at first. And then I went after you like a rabid dog because... that's what I do.

If I was in the wrong, I am open to be proven so. I can't say I've seen much that makes me feel really good about you though. I haven't seen a lot from you except for the "Furthermore, I am of the opinion that Elvis_knits must be lynched" broken record crap. I have tried to look at everyone, and I don't feel like you've been trying very hard. Obviously, you may not care, and this may just give you more arguments against me, but I felt I had to say it because it's the truth. Say what you will about it. Vote me forever if you want.

[elvis_knits]

myko raises a good point about Ray (and possibly Toasty) being on the DUM wagon. Maxous and Bastard Bros are fine, though.

I don't get the Dum wagon, and yeah I find it weird that Toasty followed onto it. Seems mostly like he didn't like DUM calling him scum.

[elvis_knits]

Amrun is laying low, hanging her vote on DK even though that's not happening.

Amrun, if you had to vote somebody else who had a chance of dying today, who would it be? And if it's me, can you tell me who your third choice is?

[elvis_knits]

Starting to like this fiery katsuki.

[elvis_knits]

Myko, the makeup sex is going to be awesome.

...

Ok, so I say we kill Amrun, Magister, or Toasty.

Amrun has not come through for me. Has not stepped up her game, has not come up with more complete opinions on people. Is still parking her vote on DK and hoping we forget about her. Has not answered this post:

I have recently been re-thinking theory and I'm not sure it's wise to share townreads, or at least details on why someone is town, unless they come under pressure, particularly in the beginnings of large games.

In the middle/end, it becomes imperative, but I think it's better to observe on the first day and question scumspects.

Or I'm trying that out, in the very least.

Why are you changing your play strategy about sharing town reads in a game specifically designed to encourage and reward town reads?

[elvis_knits]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun

- 5 - DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, GreyICE, RedCoyote, Vi - (L-6)

DietyKabuto

- 1 - Amrun - (L-10)

Drunken Unicorn Master

- 4 - InHimshallibe, Maxous, ToastyToast, Bastard Bros - (L-7)

elvis_knits

- 2 - Gammagooey, AlmasterGM - (L-9)

GreyICE

- 1 - C-Worl - (L-10)

Iecerint

- 2 - Magister Ludi, RayFrost - (L-9)

Katsuki

- 1 - Juls - (L-10)

Magister Ludi

- 2 - Iecerint, Drunken Unicorn Master - (L-9)

ToastyToast

- 1 - Katsuki - (L-10)

Players not voting: mykonian

Can we get a consensus on who must go into the duel?

I prefer Amrun. ML or Toasty almost as good. Not feeling DUM.

I think the only possible people should be:
Amrun
ML
Toasty
DUM
(maybe me, if there is current support people should speak up)

The above list is people who currently have a wagon on them, or had a wagon on them at some point, which I think qualifies them to be considered for duel. I'd like everybody to rank these 4/5 in order they would prefer. Or if they strongly prefer a write-in candidate, say that, but we should really try to narrow down this field, IMO.

My list is:

1)Amrun
2)ML
3Toast
4)DUM
5)lovable me

[elvis_knits]

List of lynch candidates for today (in order of preference);

1) Iecrint
2) elvis_knits
3) ToastyToast
4) Magister Ludi

Also, C-Worl.

Where is DUM on that list?

[elvis_knits]

You are on your own scum list, that is scummy how I see it.

I'm not on my own scum list, silly.

That's the list of possible duel candidates. I included myself in the possible duel candidates based on who had gotten a wagon on them today. I had a wagon, so I went on the list. I listed myself as my least favorable option to duel.

[elvis_knits]

1)Elvis, since when is agreeing with someone's thought process buddying? You seem to think I'm buddying you. I'm not, your not even on my town list.

I'm referring to how you said you agreed with my plan to rule duels by majority, while also giving caveats that if a person feels sure they found scum they can duel. Which actually means you didn't agree with me. Saying you agree with me AND AGM seemed to be an attempt to please us both, but it's not really possible to agree with us both, since one makes the other impossible.

[elvis_knits]

that was a bit much, kats

[elvis_knits]

Ack... i'm behind...

[elvis_knits]

Okay, I don't have much time right now, but I feel I should post something before this game gets away from me. I should have some more time tonight to get better caught up and figure stuff out better. For now, I've kind of skimmed stuff.

OK RedCoyote was scum, toasty was town. Wasn't RC's death first posted to look like a third party? Now it looks generically scum. Is there any consensus on which we think he is? I'm only asking because I haven't spent enough time to look over carefully and I thought maybe someone could cut through all that for me. If RC was a third party I would find it more likely that his suspicions were honest, since I think you still try to scumhunt as a third party (not that he's right about all of them, but more that he was trying to be right). If he was mafia then I would be looking for different motivations and distrust his suspicions more.

I also think it's really important to look at the other major wagons yesterday and when/how they popped up in relation to toastytoast. I'm still wondering about amrun and ML as I think that toasty might have distracted from them. I'm also much more suspicious of inHim because I think he was pushing toasty most of the day. Inhim was also main pusher of DUM, so like if inHim's scum I would expect DUM to be town.

The whole thing about DK doing the pierce thing seems like he was just f'ing around, and I'm surprised people are all like "WHAT DOES IT MEAN??" Obv nothing.

UH. More coherent thoughts coming later, but that's what I'm thinking about ATM.

[elvis_knits]

Wagon analysis!

Major movements in the game were as follows:
1) Myko wagon (EK, DK, CSL, Cworl)
2) Magister Ludi wagon (RayFrost,

ToastyToast

, Iecerint, Katsuki, Vi, Amrun, CSL )
3) Amrun wagon (DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, GreyICE,

RedCoyote

, Vi)
4) DUM wagon (Drunken Unicorn Master - 5 - RayFrost, InHimshallibe, Maxous,

ToastyToast

, Bastard Bros)
5)

Toasty

wagon (Katsuki, Gammagooey, AlmasterGM,

RedCoyote

, Amrun, Drunken Unicorn Master, Magister Ludi)

Reason behind myko wagon was me going rabid dog.
Reason behind ML wagon was the "slip"
Reason behind Amrun wagon (subpar votes, vague reasoning, resistance to getting in the mud)
Reason behind DUM wagon (not really sure? inHim major pusher, thought DUM was scummy for having to reread when it looked as if he was reading along)
Reason behind Toasty wagon (Contradicted himself, wanting to have it both ways, some really bad attacks on kats dum and vi)

Important stuff to note:
1)When Amrun wagon got to 5, Dum wagon grew to five as a counter wagon.

This is VERY interesting to me because inhim was the major fuel on the DUM wagon, and inhim had previously voted Amrun early, so why wouldn't he be on the Amrun wagon? Instead he starts a counter wagon.

This is his stated reason for DUM:

Also, it was pretty clear RC was paying attention to the thread already, but he's now claiming he's going to read it like he hasn't touched the material. Forced imo.

2)I still don't get the DUM wagon.
3)I believe toasty wagon happened because we were trying to find a compromise, and also his attacks on Vi, dum and the kats fighting all looked so bad. I'm not sure I blame anyone necessarily, inhim did bring up toasty buddying me early, and redcoyote also votes toast early. kats also inflamed the toasty death, but I'm not sure I really blame him.
4)Mykonian still doing jackshit in this game. Sorry to keep going back to him, but really. The only thing he's done all day is vote me for being "passive" while I vote and analyze and scumhunt, while he himself is the one being extremely passive this game.
5)I notice that RedCoyote's first wallpost had a vote for maxous, and then an unvote and vote for toasty in the same post! I always find this suspicious when people vote somebody and then unvote in the same post. What is the point of that? Smells scumbuddy-ish to me, if we think RC was mafia? I'm still confused about his alignment, if it was mafia or third party. HELP ME, people who understand this flavor.

Overall, for his early push of toast, and his suspicious behavior regarding Amrun and then push of DUM wagon;

vote inhim

Note: if Inhim is scum, Amrun very likely buddy.

---

Supporting VC's:

Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun - 2 - Juls, Katsuki - (L-9)
DietyKabuto - 1 - Amrun - (L-10)
elvis_knits - 2 - Gammagooey, AlmasterGM - (L-9)
GreyICE - 1 -

ToastyToast

- (L-10)
Magister Ludi - 1 - RayFrost - (L-10)
Maxous - 1 - Vi - (L-10)

mykonian - 4 - elvis_knits, CSL, DietyKabuto, C-Worl - (L-7)

RayFrost - 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)
Vi - 1 - GreyICE - (L-10)

Players not voting: Bastard Bros, Iecerint, InHimshallibe, Maxous, mykonian,

RedCoyote

Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun - 1 - Juls - (L-10)
DietyKabuto - 1 - Amrun - (L-10)
elvis_knits - 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)

Magister Ludi - 4 - RayFrost,

ToastyToast

, Iecerint, Katsuki - (L-7)

Maxous - 1 - Vi - (L-10)

mykonian - 4 - elvis_knits, CSL, DietyKabuto, C-Worl - (L-7)

RayFrost - 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)

ToastyToast

- 2 - AlmasterGM,

RedCoyote

- (L-9)
Vi - 1 - GreyICE - (L-10)

Players not voting: Bastard Bros, InHimshallibe, Maxous

Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11

AlmasterGM - 2 - GreyICE, C-Worl - (L-9)
Amrun - 1 - Juls - (L-10)
CSL - 1 - InHimshallibe - (L-10)
elvis_knits - 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)

Magister Ludi - 7 - RayFrost,

ToastyToast

, Iecerint, Katsuki, Vi, Amrun, CSL - (L-4)

mykonian - 2 - elvis_knits, DietyKabuto - (L-9)
RayFrost - 2 - Magister Ludi, Maxous - (L-9)

ToastyToast

- 2 - AlmasterGM,

RedCoyote

- (L-9)

Players not voting: Bastard Bros

Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun - 5 - DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, GreyICE,

RedCoyote

, Vi - (L-6)

DietyKabuto - 1 - Amrun - (L-10)
Drunken Unicorn Master - 2 - RayFrost, InHimshallibe - (L-9)
elvis_knits - 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)
GreyICE - 2 - Juls, C-Worl - (L-9)
Iecerint - 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)
Magister Ludi - 4 -

ToastyToast

, Iecerint, Katsuki, Drunken Unicorn Master - (L-7)
RayFrost - 1 - Maxous - (L-10)

ToastyToast

- 1 - AlmasterGM - (L-10)

Players not voting: Bastard Bros

Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun - 5 - DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, GreyICE,

RedCoyote

, Vi - (L-6)

DietyKabuto - 1 - Amrun - (L-10)

Drunken Unicorn Master - 5 - RayFrost, InHimshallibe, Maxous,

ToastyToast

, Bastard Bros - (L-6)

elvis_knits - 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)
GreyICE - 2 - Juls, C-Worl - (L-9)
Iecerint - 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)
Magister Ludi - 2 - Iecerint, Drunken Unicorn Master - (L-9)

ToastyToast

- 2 - AlmasterGM, Katsuki - (L-9)

Players not voting: None

Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun - 2 - elvis_knits, GreyICE - (L-9)
Drunken Unicorn Master - 4 - InHimshallibe, Maxous,

ToastyToast

, Bastard Bros - (L-7)
GreyICE - 1 - C-Worl - (L-10)
Iecerint - 1 - RayFrost - (L-10)
InHimshallibe - 1 - Vi - (L-10)
Katsuki - 2 - Juls, DietyKabuto - (L-9)
Magister Ludi - 1 - Iecerint - (L-10)

ToastyToast

- 7 - Katsuki, Gammagooey, AlmasterGM,

RedCoyote

, Amrun, Drunken Unicorn Master, Magister Ludi - (L-4)

Players not voting: mykonian

[elvis_knits]

Hmmm, just noticed myko's recent contributions regards inhim. Maybe myko's not so bad. I take back my last point against him

[elvis_knits]

Myko, I didn't know what you were talking about with "Don't do this inhim" when you first disliked him. I think I gave inhim more of a pass because he seemed to want you and me to stop fighting. I took that as slightly pro-town to want to resolve a fight rather than inflame. That's kind of the same reason I felt good about redcoyote.

I think you're right that inhim is going after logic contradictions that are not necessarily scummy. My biggest problem with him is that his reason for voting DUM was that "Dum says he has to reread and he's obviously been reading--zomg liar." I mean... so what is DUM has been following along? Maybe he hadn't been reading as thoroughly as he wanted and wants a reread? I just don't get why DUM doing a reread is scummy. Also it distracted from amrun wagon.

[elvis_knits]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 10

Bastard Bros

- 1 - Iecerint - (L-9)

Drunken Unicorn Master

- 2 - Maxous, RayFrost - (L-8)

elvis_knits

- 2 - Gammagooey, DietyKabuto - (L-8)

Iecerint

- 1 - Juls - (L-9)

InHimshallibe

- 4 - Vi, Magister Ludi, mykonian, elvis_knits - (L-6)

Players not voting: AlmasterGM, Amrun, Bastard Bros, C-Worl, Drunken Unicorn Master, GreyICE, InHimshallibe, Katsuki

elvis_knits, I would like to see either you or VI duel Inhim.

I don't mind dueling inhim. Not to sound like a broken record, but if that's what the majority think is best, I'm fine with it.

Also, are you trying to empower me or kill me?

[elvis_knits]

Myko, I think half the people haven't commented yet about the second duel... so yeah it was premature.



I'm getting more and more on your side, except for you rushing.

[elvis_knits]

mykonian 822... Insufficient certainty for simple Y/N answer. Very large red flag thrown by Maxous in previous 72 hours. Extermination of Maxous not disallowed, but not priority.

Also, I'm not sure if my point about a possible RedCoyote-Maxous tie got lost in the wall. But RC's first wall post he votes and unvotes maxous in the same post then votes someone else (I think toasty). So the maxous vote was basically meaningless. Looks like scumbuddy distancing to me.

[elvis_knits]

I honestly don't care very much about this flavor BS and AGM's supposed info about three scum groups. I do not trust AGM's info out of hand. Maybe it's true but it's a scum power (isn't it helpful to them to know what they're up against?). Maybe it's not true and he's setting us up to believe that it's natural to have 3 kills (when 3 kills really means we empowered scum who got an extra kill). Honestly, it sounds to me like the game would be really scum-heavy with 2 3-man mafias and third party. But, hey I guess it's possible and I'm not the best balancer anyway. I just know that when I played in dynamite mafia it was 1 3-man scum team in a 20 player game (but that was vanilla).

So I take AGM with a grain of salt.

[elvis_knits]

And how are we supposed to discover there aren't 3 anti-town factions?

[elvis_knits]

And how are we supposed to discover there aren't 3 anti-town factions?

That doesn't particularly matter at this point.

Good ol' scumhunting is what matters.

I agree and that's kind of my point about AGM and his whole deal.

I mean if I'm being stupid about AGM and he should be considered town, then I'll try to listen.

[elvis_knits]

Why did that duel finish so quickly....

For everyone who thought I was a pain in the arse yesterday:

THIS IS WHY WE NEED RULES FOR FUCKING DUELS

[elvis_knits]

Oh yeah AND I have special role info which makes this an EVEN BETTER thing than I thought previously.

elvis_knits, claim.

Are you sure about that?

[elvis_knits]

I'm taking my doggie for a walk, I'll check back after and if other people think I should claim, I will.

[elvis_knits]

Fuck... fine. I could refuse but I know others want my blood so I probably have to at some point. So I might as well.

I am Xiahou Yuan of the Eight Tiger GEnerals of Wei.

I'm a doc. I can protect one person each night. If I win a duel, I can protect two.

Last night I protected Vi. My action was unsuccessful.

NOW I'm going for a walk with my pup... be back in a bit.

[elvis_knits]

Yes I was told specifically.

[elvis_knits]

A is protective shot and D is archer's eye.

[elvis_knits]

Bluhhh.
Protective shot kinda makes sense but I'm having a really hard time getting past the told you were roleblocked thing.

If anyone else wants to step in with opinions here I'd appreciate it.

I have to assume that it's just his policy to tell people if their action was not successful. I don't think that spyrex would make an exception for me, unless he didn't want me to assume that I had saved Vi from dying when I hadn't.

Also, FWIW, early day I sent in conditional actions to protect a)redcoyote, or d)protect redcoyote and juls if i won a duel. Then Vi killed redcoyote and he was scum so I sent in the a)protect on Vi. I didn't send in another d) conditional if I won a duel because I figured I would worry about that again if I ended up dueling.

[elvis_knits]

All I know of flavor is I have arrows on my back.

[elvis_knits]

And I look badass.

[elvis_knits]

elvis was there flavor with your roleblocked message y/n?

No flavor.

[elvis_knits]

WTF

I will be on in a little bit, but should something crazy happen and I'm dead before that, I just want to repeat this little nugget:

I have been in other games with similar mechanics that result in more than one player dead each day (like dynamite or something), and if you don't watch your arse you can lose a bunch of people in nothing flat and sometimes not have enough to go off in terms of getting other player's opinions. Then you're really in the hole, and scum are laughing. I'm not sure I want a double death on D1. I want to see a flip before committing to that amount of risk.

Whatever we do: I want every player to weigh in on who they want to duel and and why, if they want two dead or one, and who they want to lynch and why. We need that info to stack up over the days.

And no fucking way should any town player challenge anybody to a duel without a majority agreement. No fucking way. It is anti-town to act on something irreversible like deciding the duel for the town. We will get much more info if everyone decides together.

PLEASE STOP DUELING PEOPLE WITHOUT MAJORITY AGREEMENT!!!!! YOU MUST GET SOME RULES TOGETHER AND FOLLOW THEM AND PUNISH PEOPLE WHO DON'T PLAY ALONG.

And sorry, myko, but you opened the door for what deity is doing, and it will only get worse from here if you all don't crack down on this.

[elvis_knits]

And you know what else?

We have a right to know what roles we're empowering.

Anyone who goes into the duel should claim.

I only partially understand gamma's role. I don't know what myko's role is. I don't even know what inhim's role is and now we'll never know.

HOW on earth can we catch scum that we accidentally empowered if we don't force claims from people in the duel.

WTF guys.

[elvis_knits]

SpyreX is confirmed scum. Just a thought.

In the meantime, I've actually been following the game for some time because the duel mechanic interests me, so I half know what's going on (half know, been skimming because I want to see the duels in action). So here's what I will and will not do for those curious. I will effectively start the game here on Page 38 and will only reference the first 37 as an on need basis. Why am I doing that you ask? I want an unbiased outlook on the game from the moment I enter, because a replacement changes things. I personally find it more effective to play from the moment you replace in than to backtrack (I'll never catch up!) I will not answer to the actions of my predecessor as it isn't fair for me to discern the motives of his posts. So if I disagree with something he said, oh well. It happens.

If you've been following along it shouldn't be that hard to try to catch up...

I don't even mind if you don't want to reread, but I want your opinions from the first37 pages, even if they're not completely fleshed out.

[elvis_knits]

Blah, I'm so mad about how this went down. I was fine with having to duel because I don't htink I've played that well and it was seeming inevitable. But DK dueling me like this is so fucked up. He completely ignored my claim, when actually Gammagoey RB'ing me supports that I am telling the truth. I feel like he just jumped at the chance to kill a PR. I'm also feeling like you all are scum at this point, but I guess that's not possible, and not very helpful. I will try to organize my thoughts before I die so that I can maybe help a little on the way out.

I beg you:

Don't let individual players decide the duel.
Don't let duelists get away without claiming.
Kill every player who duels without consent.

I really think if you don't do the above from here on out, town loses.

[elvis_knits]

See this is what happens when you try and use democracy. Random people just roll in and fuck everything up anyway. And then there has to be YET ANOTHER debate about punishing them, because that would have to go through the democratic process as well.

Thus, I propose MARTIAL LAW. If your name is not Juls, Gammagooey, mykonian, AlmasterGM, or Vi, you are NOT ALLOWED TO START DUELS. If you start a duel and you are not a) one of these people or b) ordered to start a duel by one of these people, you are marked for immediate death. End of story.

Vote: No winner

BUT WE'RE NOT USING DEMOCRACY!!!!!!! WE'RE BEING RETARDED!!!!!

Also, Juls is dead. Gamma and myko have killed town. You've done jackshit. Vi's the only one there who is awesome.

MARTIAL LAW IS CRAP.

[elvis_knits]

No, your system has been proven not to work. We are using mine from now on.

NOBODY EVER USED MY SYSTEM

[elvis_knits]

I wanted punishments to begin with. I said we needed a town appointed enforcer from the beginning and you called me scum.

And because we didn't punish myko yesterday, this shit with DK has happened. Why are you punishing DK and not myko?

[elvis_knits]

the roleblock shenanigans isn't how I think SpyreX would resolve the issue. (I did check ALL of Spy's previous games for this- the only one with a roleblocked non-result role that didn't end the game/have the player no action anyway was in Powerful Wizards, but he didn't say in-thread if he got a message saying he was blocked and it was a mass-block anyway so it was generally known he was blocked)

WHAT PART OF ME KNOWING I WAS BLOCKED MAKES ME LOOK SCUMMY?

THIS IS WHAT YOU'VE DONE THIS GAME:
KILLED TOWN (TOASTY)
BLOCKED ME (POWERFUL PROTECTIVE ROLE)
FORCED ME TO CLAIM
PUSHED FOR MY DEATH EVEN THOUGH NOBODY HAS A PROBLEM WITH MY CLAIM AND I CAN CONFIRM YOUR BLOCK

GET A CLUE

[elvis_knits]

Duel in progress

The fact that most mods on site wouldn't give that message, none of the newbie games have "doc gets message when roleblocked" in their mechanics and I don't know of any mods that actively disagree with that.
Whereas if you're scum you KNOW that you were blocked because your kill didn't go through, you know that's probably the role information being brought up against you, AND it's quite unlikely that the kill was stopped by other methods given that there probably aren't two docs in the setup, meaning that it's basically
a)you're scum
or
b)At least one antitown faction missed their kill entirely AND a second one either has weird kill mechanics or ALSO missed their kill or had it blocked.

And it's super nice to see you trying to discredit me without either thinking I'm scum or having the guts to say it.

I'm trying to tell you that you're not the shit like you think you are, so maybe rethink some stuff.

I haven't played this game lately, but I used to play a lot so I'm not so dumb that I don't know that docs aren't usually told they are blocked, so if I was scum I would not make that up. I mean, not many people would be that dumb.

I can think of other reasons we didn't have other kills.
-jailkeeper
-bodyguard
-bulletproof
-two teams targetted juls
-somebody didn't decide on the kill intime and didn't send it in (day went fast at the end)

[elvis_knits]

Bah, it probably does look bad that we had less kills than expected and I was RB'ed. I will admit that it looks bad and that I would be suspicious of me too.

But I really am town.

If there really are as many scum as people are saying there are, then they need to start cross-killing each other. I will not accomplish this goal.

[elvis_knits]

Did DK just go "Whoops maybe I am a third party but I swear I'm playing for the town" ?!

[elvis_knits]

Fuck this.
-This is Uchiha Madara

who and what is uchiha madara?


Also

vote elvis to win

[elvis_knits]

My D choices to protect 2 people are in, so we can finish killing DK. If it ends the day, I'm cool.

[elvis_knits]

i haven't read anything yet except think that I should claim my targets.

I protected vi and iecerint.

choices were confirmed, i didn't get a blocked message, so i assume everything worked.

be back in a bit to read...

[elvis_knits]

WTF T-BONE NEEDS TO DIE.

DIdn't we just talk about this?

Anybody who duels without discussion and majority consent dies.

I haven't looked at the Iece abilities to understand this tricksy stuff about proving him town or whatever. I could go for that if there's no chance of killing iecerint. Whatever happens I want T-Bone dead and Iecerint alive. If there's a way to prove iecerint's role also, I'll do that too.

[elvis_knits]

ALSO: please don't end the duel before people even check in here.

SCUM are prob hoping to end the day without town getting their choices in.

[elvis_knits]

Targets, elvis?

Vi and Iec

(said above, but posting again for clarity)

[elvis_knits]

Okay so I intend to vote Iec to win.

However I want to give a chance for everyone to post before we roll through this.

MOAR CONTENT PLEASE from these people:
C-Worl
DUM
Magister
Katsuki
RayFrost

LURKERMODE IS NOT OKAY.

It is absolutely important for those people to post more so we get better reads on them. If they don't try after being warned, I will take it as a bad sign.

[elvis_knits]

Welcome to my play.

But in all seriousness, I do not have the time for catching up for the next while, due to finals.

If you can't reread, just try to read along and make as many comments as possible.

Or do something awesome.

[elvis_knits]

Actually, T-Bones last post was very town sounding. Shit.

Nominate Magister for extermination.

[elvis_knits]

Oh hay elvis who'd you protect last night.

Vi and Iec

[elvis_knits]

Gamma who'd you block?

[elvis_knits]

Duel in progress

I think Iec is town, I've been saying that for a while.

I wasn't completely on board with a lot of the empowered/obvtown clique. Still am not completely. So I went with my own read.

[elvis_knits]

Vi were you calling me retarded or Amrun? Or both?

I guess I am at least borderline if I have to ask...

I like the Stealth-R-Us reference though

[elvis_knits]

...

Output... Unofficial vote count is as follows.

T-Bone (W-4) ~ T-Bone, Drunken Unicorn Master, RayFrost
No Winner (W-4) ~ Magister Ludi, Maxous, Gammagooey
Iecerint (W-4) ~ Iecerint, Katsuki, Amrun

Not Voting: C-worl, Vi, mykonian, elvis_knits

IF T-Bone is groupscum THEN expectation that scumpartners' votes are spread out.
IF C-worl is not groupscum AND elvis_knits AND mykonian are not groupscum THEN analysis becomes easy. Previously stated condition not improbable.

...

You have to explain more. I am clearly retarded.

[elvis_knits]

Wait I might understand.

You're saying if all those not voting are town, and if t-bone is scum, the scum will be spread out among tbone, iec, and no winner. Okay. I see it.

[elvis_knits]

My brain followed that... hooray!

[elvis_knits]

C-worl posting elsewhere.

[elvis_knits]

Amrun's play makes sense now.

So I still haven't voted for iec, and I plan to. Just waiting for people to contribute or risk wrath.

Where is myko and why is he not posting? Grrr.

[elvis_knits]

SO there are people I find scummier, but are we still sure myko is town?

Never claimed, was empowered, hasn't posted in a few days.

I'll be back to vote in a few hours.

[elvis_knits]

vote iecerint to win