Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[LimMePls]

Wrath wasn't the flipfloppinh cheerleader SGR was, so why vote Wrath over SGR?
And it's not that hard looking at which other player was keeping his RVS vote, while seeing a different player as scummy. It's your reason for thinking players are scummy. I have different ones. If I can see it, without thinking it's scummy, you should be able to find it as well.
As extra, your accusation against RBT is terribad. Learn to read sarcasm.

Wrath did it first, and I was reading up on the thread. SGR got my vote once it became obvious he deserved it more.

[LimMePls]

@Town: Ordinarily when catching up from a weekend V/LA, I just post comments as I'm reading. Since I've got 6 pages to catchup on, I'll just make one big post. It'll be up when I've finished the catchup.

[gandalf5166]

How would it have a drastic effect on the game? They would leave. We would GET RID of an anti town role with no negative effects. Plus if they have any teammates, they leave too. HOW IS THAT A BAD THING

Soben's point is that there could be negative effects - why are you assuming that there would be none?

I think Icey is either town or a cleric-like third party, by the way.

First of all, if you think Icey is town, why aren't you voting for them before you vote for other people. Secondly, THE RULES SAY SO. If a faction wins and their wincon doesn't directly conflict(which a wincon of getting voted for WOULD NOT) then the game gos on as normal.

Oh fuck, Pine's claim means he's almost certainly town. And if he's not, he probably just lost all of his abilities, so he's harmless.

Unvote
VOTE: Icey
Unvote
VOTE: LMP

[WrathChild]

I vote for not lynching Pine today.

@Amrun: That was my clever way of telling Mama off when whe asked about why I wanted to know about alignments. In fact the way you spun that little attack on me seems very scummy. You just made your way to the top of my recommended reading list.

[Mana_Ku]

Wrath wasn't the flipfloppinh cheerleader SGR was, so why vote Wrath over SGR?
And it's not that hard looking at which other player was keeping his RVS vote, while seeing a different player as scummy. It's your reason for thinking players are scummy. I have different ones. If I can see it, without thinking it's scummy, you should be able to find it as well.
As extra, your accusation against RBT is terribad. Learn to read sarcasm.

Wrath did it first, and I was reading up on the thread. SGR got my vote once it became obvious he deserved it more.

So you rather started a new 'wagon', because?

And am I the only one who's wondering why players are now saying to vote somebody else besides Pine :S?

[WrathChild]

Well, on my re-read of Amrun, I don't get a scum, now analyzing the cases made against him.

[Amrun]

I vote for not lynching Pine today.

@Amrun: That was my clever way of telling Mama off when whe asked about why I wanted to know about alignments. In fact the way you spun that little attack on me seems very scummy. You just made your way to the top of my recommended reading list.

Good for you. Your clever way of telling her off wasn't so clever. She wasn't fishing. My accusation of you wasn't something serious. It's a note, more to myself, to remember. You've done nothing to impress me so far. You've pushed to keep the game in RVS and made half-assed, poor attempts at throwing suspicion onto people. You're not close to my top suspect, and I'm not even sure I suspect you, but don't act as if you're the paragon of towniness, either.

p-edit: Look at Beefster. That's the only case, and it is bad.

[LimMePls]

Onward to my suspects. I haven't seen a satisfactory explanation from inHim for his suspicions, in fact I've seen no new posts from him at all. However, when I read him in isolation I realized my chronology was off. Now I wonder if the way he changed his read of chesskid was because he noticed the same thing I did. Nevertheless, I'm somewhat disturbed by the curt posting style and absence of arguments in his posts, I'll need to check some scum games of his. For now,

Vote: inHimshallibe

This looks like a town tell to me. Feysal could have chosen one of the already established targets and pushed that, but he's looking elsewhere.

It seems like I'm moving towards a lynch. Someone has to be the first sacrifice, and if it has to be Town, it may as well be me. From this point on, I am treating it as my job to beat the bushes and flush out as many scum as I can.

This also means that I will largely stop defending myself, and will not be answering questions from my scum/anti-Town reads. My Town flip will vindicate this stance and give added credence to my reads for the Town to go after.

I'll start tomorrow morning with a full re-read and begin shaking trees.

PE: I've already answered most of that, Icey, and in accordance with the above policy, will not be wasting my time any further with you. Fear not, you'll be featured and get your answers.

I intend to self-vote and push my lynch when I finish. I have nothing to lose, and Town has everything to gain from this tactic.

Hell, if I'm NOT lynched and flipped to confirm the validity of my reads, it's an exercise in futility.

The problem with this logic is that you're lucky if people even bother to notice your reads right after your flip. They'll surely forget about them within a game day. So then all we're left with is a dead townie who didn't do anything to stop their wagon.

To see a similar situation, I tried your exact same tactic in Ozy and Millie Mafia. It doesn't work.

No, he said I had circular logic. I asked him how, and he said, "Well, I guess you don't, but I also thought you voted two people in the same post, which is scummy, but you didn't do that either". So basically I never did any of the things he accused me of - but HE has done them, as I pointed out - but still votes for me just because he wants to look consistent.

That is how I read his posts. I'm asking around because I want to see if others read them the same way.

+1. Amrun is right about Beefster.

Town does not give up.

FALSE. I'll dig up multiple examples if you need them. This is a LIE.

Why so defensive?
It's called reaction testing, my friend. Yes, my initial reasoning wasn't great, but your reaction doesn't seem genuinely townie to me. Even though I have my vote on you, you're panicking over essentially nothing. Mind you there are only 2 votes on you right now. I don't see what the big deal is. You're responding as if you have something to lose.

**SNIP**

Pine is really starting to make me nervous with his self-lynch plan. I have never seen that tactic used by pro-town players.
FoS: Pine

I love when people make shit arguments, someone points out the argument is shit, and the person goes "I WAS JUST REACTION FISHING! DUH".

And by love I mean hate. Cause it's scummy.

And the FOS is so weak its scary.

LMP, do you usually put so much emphasis on getting out of RVS?

All the time. If you need supporting evidence I'll be happy to dig it up. For starters, here is one I know of off the top of my head. Secret Invasion Mafia. For one, I find that arguing about getting out of RVS is much more productive than just sitting around in RVS.

According to Snow_Bunny, claiming is the worst possible thing you can do. So that didn't see much of a good move. Regardless, I'l

Unvote

Can we please lynch this guy? Or Beefster?

What does everyone think of RBT?

I've had up close and personal experience with RBT-lurker-scum, so I'm watching this with great interest.

So you rather started a new 'wagon', because?

If I type slower and in capital letters will it make it easier to understand!? I WAS CATCHING UP TO THE GAME. I VOTED WHERE I WANTED TO WHEN I WANTED TO WITH NO REGARDS TO STARTING A NEW WAGON OR JOINING AN EXISTING WAGON.

Conclusions:
Pine wagon is BAD BAD BAD. Pine is town telling all over the place.

1 of Beefster or SGR should die today.

Town-o-meter

TOWN
Pine
Feysal
implosion
Albert B. Rampage
IceyCupcake
Amrun
CryMeARiver
BabySpice
Zdenek
Dry-fit
chesskid3
Mana_Ku
PeregrineV
Katy
Bunnylover
SnakePlissken
WrathChild
inHimshallibe
gandalf5166
Riceballtail
Beefster
SGRaaize
SCUM

As always reads are clearer at the poles and fuzzy in the middle.

[Beefster]

Finally, a topic-starter (as if we didn't have enough anyway):
-Do you think there are any players with town wincon, but evil alignment?

Sounds like my role PM... The alignments are flipped, so yes. Not sure what you're implying.

Did I stutter?

I'm a

Wight

, a medium-strength sentient undead created to guard the Sorcerer's Den. I'll full-claim before I die. Basically, I have a weak attack and an interesting but extremely conditional ability.

Sounds legit to me. Though, you still can't take it as fact. You very well could have been given a fake claim. I felt it was worth mentioning. I think Pine is town though.

I think it would be wise to focus on other players for now. It's nice to use D1 as an information day. If we get through other players and still think Pine is scum, then we can vote him for real.

I think I've pressured Amrun for long enough now. (but I still think he's scum)

Unvote

Aquiring target....

Wait a minute...

For the record, dating back to SitMOAI, and because I vaguely remember someone mentioning it being bad to claim, it's generally only bad to name claim/flavor claim. In that game, I think someone stole people's powers or something when the claimed. But the flavor of Andrius suggests nameclaiming is a no no.

Wouldn't this mean that Pine should get modkilled?...

Anyway...

VOTE: Manu_Ku for not having her own opinion.
VOTE: LMP
Too many inconsistencies.
PEDIT: Looks like OMGUS, but it's not, actually.

[Amrun]

It's kind of cute you think I was ever pressured by you, Beefster.

Why did you vote for two people in the same post, AGAIN? Conveniently, your top 3 suspects are the 3 that suspect you.

You're still dodging Mana_Ku's (I think) questions.

[WrathChild]

Upon my re-read of Beefster, I am not impressed with his case against someone who seems fairly town to me and he appears to have locked in Amrun with out looking elsewhere. Also, I'm always suspicious about people over using FoS (whether or not it's disguised as voting (see ISO #7). ISO #10 just feels like Beefster trying to spark suspicion against someone. I don't see how he can scream for a BW on Amrun, while only FoSing Pine who at the time had made far and away the clearest scummy play of the game.

UNVOTE, VOTE: Beefster

PEDIT: Whoah, Did beef just double vote?

[gandalf5166]

@Beef: No. There are ingame consequences to claiming.

[Amrun]

Yes, he did.

[Beefster]

Aw crap. I think I was skimming a bit to much. LMP isn't all that inconsistent.

unvote

VOTE: Mana_Ku

@gandalf: what was the deal with Andrius, then?

[Beefster]

@WrathChild: I didn't doublevote. I just didn't feel like unvoting.

[Amrun]

But I thought voting two people in the same post was showing scummy backtracking?

[WrathChild]

@WrathChild: I didn't doublevote. I just didn't feel like unvoting.

I thought the rules required it. Do you hate the rules?

[WrathChild]

But I thought voting two people in the same post was showing scummy backtracking?

Haha, nice Amrun.

[Beefster]

@Beefster
Can you even fail more than you're doing now? Yes. Take a look at the first game I was ever in... You were scummy, post 430 is making everything much worse. Instead of responding to Amrun good reasons about being suspicious about you, you attack her even more with weaker reasons. That's how I roll. I'm offensive- and I use vote pressure on less noticed players. Besides, his reactions didn't look genuinely townie. Do I really need another reason?
-You're accusing her of being defensive, while she's pointing out why you're suspicious to her. I'm pretty dang used to it. I almost always get lots of votes on D1. He/she was defensive when I first attacked him/her. I really didn't have anything against her reasons; I generally just ignore cases on me until I get close to being lynched. I'm pretty reckless.
-You mentioned that she has only been focusing on you after your vote, while her vote against Pine came afterwards.So she's sheeping now? Good to know
You're just reaching for reasons to keep your vote against her. Spot on. I think she's scum. Do I really need any other reason to keep my vote on?

Responses in ooc.

Really. If you think I'm scummy, just vote me.

I also don't see why you're voting for Pine.

@Amrun: 2 votes in the same post is just a hardcore way to FoS. You might say my retraction of the LMP vote is backtracking, though. And it's a valid accusation, considering the circumstances. But it really isn't what I meant. I skimmed a bit too much while looking through all the ISOs for suspects. It looked like inconsistency at first glance.

[Mana_Ku]

You're still dodging Mana_Ku's (I think) questions.

Only me? He's been dodging everything ever since the discussion between the two of you started.
I also can't wait to hear how wrong he is in my case.

I'll look at LMP's post in a sec.
EDIT: And Beefster's new post, which on a first glimp shows his funny side as he's actually responding to reasons against him, while he states in that post that he normally waits with that.

[SGRaaize]

Alright, so I decided to give up on that idea of making quicktopic with everyone, it got boring pretty fast, I'm just gonna reread the whole game now and see points of interest.

Prepare for Wall-of-Text

[SGRaaize]

And I don't mean a small Wall-of-Text, I mean a colossal page long Wall-of-Text

[Amrun]

Beefster, I was the very first one to express suspicion of Pine, as far as I know, in the post you called "circular reasoning.". But I'm sheeping? Yeah, okay.

And you accused me of being scummy because you thought I voted two people in the same post, but it's not scummy when you do it.

And responding to questions people ask you is standard. You don't have to break down a whoe case to respond to direct questions.

[gandalf5166]

Aw crap. I think I was skimming a bit to much. LMP isn't all that inconsistent.

unvote

VOTE: Mana_Ku

@gandalf: what was the deal with Andrius, then?

It was flavor is what it was.

[LimMePls]

Too many inconsistencies.

List them.