Newbie 1109: Paradise City (Game Over)

[Jora]

\cofirm

[Jora]

Hi, everyone!
Confirmation stage is over. Let's get started.

I'm your humble servant Inexperienced Challenged player, or IC for short.

I'm here to help you, to teach you and to prevent you from making a false step. Regardless of my role in this game, I won't lie you about theory or proper gameplay. Also, take my first tip: townies should not lie.

This is random vote:
VOTE: Otolia

Question to all the players: what's on your mind?

[Jora]

@ Isa, I'm sorry if my play caused the downfall of your great expectations. I'll try my best.


@ Verydark, voting No Lynch at the first day was proven to be genuinely bad idea (at least in all the newbie setups - it is for sure). Also, mentioning random.org is kind of not good. Yes, random vote stage is called random, but it better to choose by yourself. Some people on this site really hate random.org votes. It's better to provide some kind of explanation. Well, I did not, my bad. I voted Otolia for his serious looking mafiaso penguin avi. I know, it's a fat joke. Random vote stage often worries new players, just get used to it.

[Jora]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tux First words: "Tux is a penguin."

But I don't care, I like my Windows XP.

[Jora]

@ Isa, сall me Jora - it's much easier to type. My game expirience is moderate.

@ Verydark, I guess your sig is mafia-games relevant, does it?

[Jora]

@ Bulvious,

1) Yes. It is my first time as IC.
2) Negative. I think Mod should force a replacement on those people who wants to be policy lynched.
3) Maybe some in June.
4) Don't know. I'd say south.

@ Maziek: Asking questions is good. Besides, Verydark had avoided question about his game expirience.

@ Verydark: Did you played forum based mafia elsewhere?

[Jora]

VOTE: Bulvious

Because he is the only one that hasn't yet posted after the confirmation stage

@ Illmatic: Do you like Bulvious now?

[Jora]

Hmmm... From all the conversations I've read, I don't think that I can pin somebody for somethig.

However, I tend to pressurise Illmatic for lurking. (rockynpoika is not a lurker, I think he is kind of not in the game yet)

VOTE: Illmatic

Aaaand, I have some time for ICing.

If you have a game-mechanics related question or any other question feel free to ask our Mod via PM. Mod will be pleased to help you. If you feel that your question (needs to/may) be openly discussed then better ask in this thread directly. Never ask questions outside the theread. Do not start any conversations, nor publish any information outside this thread from which your role could be compromised.

Sad Examples:
1) One stupid townie had created the thread in Mafia Discussion with some kind of question like this: "how do mafias speak in their quicktopic". Which resulted in a modkill. Town lost that game.
2) One stupid mafia had placed in his wiki-scummer-page something like this: "how dare *player name* hammered me", as a result townies used it for confirming innocence of *player name* and that game was broken.

[Jora]

Hurray! L-3!

I love wagons. But as an IC I must say: we should not hammer that early. Town should get a thorough conversation. If someone will put a hammer during the next few days I will not be happy.

- Isa also looks a little bit suspicious for playing really defensively rather than actively scum-hunting, which town players should do atm, however this has already been pointed out.

@ Isa, do you agree with that you were defensive?

[Jora]

No it's L-2.
And it means "lynch minus two". When it would be L-1, do not vote without warning!

[Jora]

@ Otolia
Just saying, because I must. Do you want a link to the newbie game which was spoiled because of ealy hammer? No one seen that coming, before it was too late.

WRNING L-1! No more votes for illmatic.

[Jora]

If illmatic doesn't post after being prodded, I will be asking for an hammer. I'd rather state that now.

Then illmatic will be replaced, don't ya think? No one should hammer him. At least not so fast.
If he pick up the prod, but keep flaking, that would be another situation.

[Jora]

In two days, I will go on a four-day vacation. I'll be gone from Thursday morning to Sunday evening. Will I need to be replaced?

I think not. Btw, this question is better to ask via PM to Mod directly. Mod usually announce all the V/LA players in the thread.
Or at least summon him like this (from the new line with bold, so he may notice):

Mod:

Isa asked about vacation.

I wanted to unvote, but Otolia did it.

@ illmatic Had you played mafia elsewhere?

By the way, since I'm not familiar with this forum, is there a way you can check number of posts by people?

Click on "Display posts by user" below VVV

[Jora]

I am a townie though as you will see.

I hope that was not a claim. Townies should not claim before it would become totally obvious that they will be lynched today.
So did you claimed your role or not?

Sad Examples: (...)

That is actually hilarious.

Funny, indeed. Not for me though. I was in those games.

@ Bulvious: thanks for defendind me http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3090215
I must admit, I have not much reads atm. And I'm not a good scumhunter. But here is something I have:
I don't want to clear you as town yet, but I really don't see a scum motivation behind your play.

UNVOTE:
Untill further investigations I'll consider Illmatic as town.

VOTE: Dark_Creed
His #1 post had awaked my scumdar. He keeping a low profile with one felicitous post. I don't want to say that making good but rare posts is scummy in general, just this time my gut tells me so. I should mention that second vote on a wagon is always worth an extra attention.

[Jora]

Currently I suspecting Dark_Creed, Illmatic, Otolia.

Case on Dark_Creed and Illmatic stated.
Otolia. I'd say that Otolia was overreacting on much of the things.
I closed tab with my own wall.
I want to see of whom you were writing. No need to restore all the text, just give some key words, please?

[Jora]

Prod received. Thanks, Isa. Being busy. I'll get back within 24 hours.

Unvote.

[Jora]

Then Maziek and others proceeded to tell me exactly how scummy that was- now that its happened again, doesn't this make Bulvious scummy? Anyone?

In my eyes being scummy = having scum motivations.
Do you see any scum motivation in this?
Bulvous was pretty honest about that lurking staff. Imo he wanted not getting Drak_Creed hammered, but making him to post or getting replaced.

However, scum could be interested in hammer here. If you accidentally made early hammer, you could defend yourself playing newb card. The reason people suspecting you is your inconsistence (when you said suspecting one pesron, yet voted another), and some elements of VI-play (no offence, Village Idiot is just a game term).

Personally I think that your paly is improving. I do not suspecting you much.

Also, Maziek earned some brownie points for being active. And his posts is pretty decent. Very like this post. I see genuine and independent position.

Now waiting for Yonzy's posts. Hurry not, Yonzy, take your time and read well. I will be here soon, nevertheless.

[Jora]

@ Otolia
I disagree with Maziek: your unvote is unnecessary. But Maziek have a point: you following Bulvious and not posting much of your own thoughts.
You seem to be annoyed and angry. That unhelpful.

Explain please what do you mean by this:

I don't read the thread carefully right now. I am merely answering immediate questions and issuing comments when I'm home.

Now if you want my vote to start a wagon on Dark, tell me and I'll change my vote at the condition that the next target for wagonning will be Maziek.

I.e. answer questions:
1) next target for wagonning = next day, after Dark_Creed's/replacement's lynch or today?
2) If you do not read carefully and playing "follow the main town read" (as I see this) why do you so inclined towards voting Maziek?
If that is the only reason:

Now I'd like to see how Maziek answer under pressure. His low number of post combined with his comments posts just aren't enough for me to get a good reads. His attacks on me were weak.

then may I ask what are you expecting from Maziek?
He was under pressure once and provided some posts
already.

However I shall bring to the attention of the town that Maziek has become more aggressive towards me since I stated I would wagon him. For me, it's something that deserve a wagon and more pressure, so after Yonzi's case is closed, I suggest him as the next wagon.

Do you expect him not to suspect you for your statement?
Did you seen someone who did such kind of planned wagoning in other games?
Or do you invent it by yourself?

[Jora]

@ Maziek, what does the abbreviation "VCA" stand for?

@ Bulvious:

what do you have to say about the Isa-Green exchange?

Currently I don't know what to say, but in my notes I have rather trio of players to watch:
{Isa, Dark_Creed, Greenealogist}
Imo Isa vs Greenealogist could be town on town.
Right now, I want to lynch Dark_Creed, but he's gone.

[Jora]

I really should take V\LA, but I'll try not. Will catch up in 24 hours.

Btw, everybody: what does VCA stand for?

[Jora]

Agrh!
@ Isa: I don't like current votes.
I'm reading...

[Jora]

Ok.
I tend to vote verydark atm. I feel town wibes from Green.
Also, I feel that there will be good chance of hitting scum if we lynch one of {Otolia, Yonzy}.

Not voting yet, not posting any of my thoughts either. I'm too uncertain and don't want to cause any confuses.
We reached that point in the game when we can and should make a final decision.
I must re-read all the posts.

Sorry for inactivity I was busy with defence of my (magister's degree) dissertation.

[Jora]

Ich finde es zwar toll, dass du deutsch bist, aber ich glaube die anderen verstehen das nicht.

Easy enough. Google translate FTW!

Finally, I get my catching.

I was wrong about Yonzy here. In that place should be (illmatic) estcerourt.

Yonzy had some nice town reads (at least it's kind of similar to my view), his defence of verydark in post #278 looks honest, despite the fact that I disagree with those points.

Green - I gave him town card for this post. So interesting. Yet I considering him as possible scum. But only after checking some others prom this list:

So, I think that's everyone. To sum up my thoughts:
Town:

Bulvious

Scum:

Isa

?
Neutral, but leaning towards town:

verydark

,

Otolia

, }|{Opa,

Dark_Creed

Neutral, but leaning towards mafia:

Illmatic

Completely neutral:

Maziek

Yep, color represents my current state of mind and my biggest town read is Bulvious.

The scum reads in order of preference:
verydark - initially I thought of him as of misdirected newbie, but then I've started seeing some parallels with Newbie 995 (even up to voting no lunch). He must be newbscum.
estcerourt - if Yonzy's vote on Green was non-existent, I probably not putted estcerourt in this list. But as things are his vote is scummy as hell. Good tactics - copying actions of another replacment.
Otolia - some things tells me that he town, for example he seems not care much to look suspicious, but some references from another players (namely Green) forced me to take Otolia-scum possibility into close consideration.

@ verydark, I think you should claim.


__

Tags fixed. Tasky

[Jora]

Ok, VOTE: estcerourt

[Jora]

If Dark flips Vt, then theres nothing we can do except try really hard tomorrow. He tried for a gambit to be nightkill bait with the hope that luck would give him the 50% chance that Jailer wasn't in this game. It just didn't work out for him.

Yep. That would be sad. However, I as IC warned that town should not lie.

I approve Maziek's plan. Either way tomorrow we will have confirmed and active townie.

Isa was really quick to pull his vote off of Verydark at something as small as a claim before anyone could say anything about it. It's like he was easily appeased and didn't truly want the lynch. Probably just bad play though.

That was paranoia speaking, not you. Isa did right.

[Jora]

Good night.

[Jora]

If I was mafia I'd killed Bulvious because he must be killed if I want a win.
1) He good scumhunter
2) He active and can lead town
3) He confirmed
4) He scary as hell - because of his PR abilities. Almost like Cop, even better

No kill equals free lynch of Otolia, but not worth the risks of letting Bulvious live. Confirming Otolia and killing Bulvious is just stupid.

Despite that I think Otolia is gulty. Lets not hurry, though. We must have a talk about most absurd case when scum is not Otolia. Not that I believe in this, but Maziek or Isa could be bussing very heavy.
My pick for non-Otolia scum is Isa. That post http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3115843 is one heavy bus.

[Jora]

EBTWOP: He is

[Jora]

Confirming Otolia and killing Bulvious is just stupid.

Doing otherwise is stupid.

Oh, why am I so sleepy.

[Jora]

In theory though, if I jailed scum, would night instantly end if there could be no night actions to perform?

In theory it's up to Mod. But good Mod will not end the night too soon, because it may cause meta-speculations of some kind. You know, like "that guy was offline so he can't send his actions so quickly bla-bla-bla".

[Jora]

Isa, may I ask you one question: since when Maziek is confirmed?

He is

nearly

confirmed because of his early suspicions of Verydark. But he still could be scum with aBus. I've seen such heavy bussing in my past games.
Just imagine. If clever scum could have predicted his partner's lynch he will start bussing his partner, it's clear as ice.
Now let's see:

1) Verydark starts with voting no lynch, then voting for IC by use of random.org
2) Maziek in panic. Bus started
Just some random quotes I've found interesting:

Very, how do you feel about me voting you?

VOTE: Bulvious

I want Maziek to chime in on this, and tell me why I'm scummy and he's not.

I'm totally down to jump on the wagon if it's Maziek. Just...FYI.

Almost identical scenario was in Newbie 995. The only difference was that there scum made a mistake leaving bus.

Besides, only one of you [Isa] or Maziek is not in danger of instant losing after No Kill.

I don't say that I believe in Maziek-scum more than in Otolia-scum. Just want to point things which we should keep in mind if game will continue after Otolia's death. Most suspicious thing about Maizek is that he voted only Verydark. Paranoia is eating me.

Also, I think that Green is probaply a good person to block if Otolia flip as townie. But in that case I don't understand why scum-Green not killed Bulvious. He has an awful lot of chances to be roleblocked next.

[Jora]

@ Isa:

I was thinking and, you know, it's not a good idea to unmask our possible PR. What if we have a Doc who healed Bulvious? In that case the last thing I want is to tell mafias where they could find our Doc.

@ Everyone: no discussion of PR!

[Jora]

Hm... clever scum had already maked a note in his "whom to kill" book that neither of you and me is a Doc. But I leave that as a wifom.

[Jora]

Yes. We have a full day. But there is not much things to discuss. I think we should make a good week and then move forward.
Yonzy is in danger of replacement. So I do a quick review for new people.
Key points of Day1:
1) Post #30: Maziek started a case on Verydark [scum].
2) Post #90: Verydark put don_johnson(estcerout)(illmatic) at L-1.
3) Post #202: Bulvious voted Verydark and so on... until L-4.
4) Post #319: Verydark fake claimed Jailer.
5) Post #323: Bulvious counterclaimed.
6) Post #336: It was decided that Otolia will be blocked as most plausible Verydark's partner.
Epilogue: Verydark flip mafia rolecop, there was no kill at night.

[Jora]

I agree.
But we need to wait until Yonzy or his replacement make a post. And you need to decide whom to block.

[Jora]

We're losing a lot of momentum. Until Otolia posts I think we're at a standstill. Bleh....

Not. Nothing he [Otolia] says will change things. We don't need him anymore.

[Jora]

I don't know what to say to you. Really. I wait Yonzy and Otolia. I think Otolia should tell us whom he would be blocking before we go hammering.
About why is Oto doomed?
I can make post-by-post analisis of his play, but that would be waste of time. I just say that he must be scum, because of
1) his voting pattern
2) lack of interaction with Verydark
3) when town decided to lynch Verydark and Bulvious tell us about his role and his suspicions,
Oto said very strange things: Post #325, Post #328. I don't get what he meant to say.
4) He said nothing about Maziek's plan, and he said nothing about idea of jailing him.
5) He kind of lost and not interested in this game anymore. Just compare him here and in another one game where he is currently in.
I literally can feel his thoughts:

What is it now, huh?

Me against how many other people?

Let's see... *checks player list*

All against me? Jail?!

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?

[Jora]

EBWOP: Bulvious, of course Bulvious

[Jora]

Nuff said
VOTE: Otolia

[Jora]

That is L-1, nobody vote just yet...there seems to be conflicting opinions on this, but I still think that Otolia should at least be given the chance to reply before he's lynched. >_>

He had this chance. Click on his profile and you'll see him posting in another game.

[Jora]

In fact his last relevant post was here: Post #289 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:20 am

[Jora]

IC comment: NEVER CLAIM SCUM!

Indeed, and especially if you yorself are one of mafias. Indeed, and especially if you are in newbie game.
Even if you are the last one and even if it seems all the odds are against you. It will spoil the pleasure from hunting. It may cause a Modkill.
If you are townie - it will confuse people, and therefore considered to be anti-town.

@ Otolia: I know you know it. This comment was for newbies. I think you played well. And as it looks to me, Bulvious did not intend to say something other than this:
"It's hard for a scum to continue playing under such pressure. Scum can't give up and say "lynch me, pl0x", that would be violation against his Wincon which is punishable act. It confuses the hell out of that scum. Otoloia started acting like this and that is the reason why we should lynch him asap."

I should have claim scum yesterday to escape the shitstorm you spouted out today. I am really sad the game ended this way.

This is not true. I was a little doubtful about your flip. After your post this doubts melted away, mostly, but if you said it yestarday THAT would be just wrong and unfair.
If this game will end after your death, I assure you, nobody would say it was bad played or something.



Now, people can we lynch Otolia? He almost claimed scum. What are you waiting for?

[Jora]

Yay! We won!

[Jora]

The funny thing is Otolia could't self-NK

Btw, I guess Bulvious was our only PR.
But Jailer is a such kick ass role. Setup + luck + good players (IMO way better than in average newbie) = scums had little to no chances.
Also,

IMHO

, Jailer + Doc = imba. Way worse balanced than Cop + Doc from F11.