Newbie 1109: Paradise City (Game Over)

[Isa]

Verydark, just the fact that you were willing to let someone push him off the end off that cliff is such a risky move that the townies should be very afraid of doing. You surely must have realized that 3 votes is still quite a bit of a pressure to put on someone, and that you can do a FoS, or just state that you'd vote for Ill if he wasn't at such a risky position. I mean, voting isn't the only way of putting pressure on someone. I did so on Ill without casting a vote, and it worked just fine, because now I'm getting questioned about it, so apparently it holds weight.

It's not even close to being a scum tell, but it sure wasn't positive for the town that you cast that vote, and it makes you look more suspicious than you did earlier on. It's not something I'd build an entire case on, though.

[Isa]

Isa

why didn't you call me out on that when you responded to that actual post?

Because it had already been mentioned by Otolia. Why would I bring up the same point again just as repetition. At the time, I was more concerned with the section regarding myself than the rest. I admit, I jumped into that reply, and probably shouldn't have done.

My guess is that you are identifying that attention has been drawn to me now, and try to join in on a potential bandwagon without looking scummy

No, I do think that you are scummy, not because attention has been drawn to you. If I were voting for people to whom attention had been drawn, why didn't I vote for Otolia, or illmatic? I am voting for you because I think you are scum.

I think that you try to build/continue momentum against me in a discreet way, but it smells of scum.

Why is the fact that I am trying to build momentum against you scummy. I am voting and trying to get lynched someone who I believe to be scum.
Finally, is my opinion not allowed to change over the:

From what I've read (and I have read the whole game a few times) I can't really identify anyone as scummy any more, having read over it with a different eye.

comment. I have made mistakes in this game, and I'll admit it. However, to me, changing my opinion on this is just me being honest.
So, to me your post seems like scum trying to reflect back suspicion onto one of their voters.

First quote, you are now bringing it up as your first argument for me being scum. It's still repetition of what Otolia and Bulvious have said, but it doesn't matter if some things are repetitions or not, if something is scummy, act upon it. Don't ignore it just because someone else bought it up.

Second, Otolia never had any real momentum against him. The only thing was Bulvious asking him questions and other users either saying that Otolia needed to calm down (me) or that his actions were justified (you). During the time that Illmatic had momentum against him, you didn't even post. I can only speculate in what you'd do if you had actually posted, but it's pointless to do so. So yeah, that's the reason you didn't vote for them according to this theory - at the time of your posting, there was no clear momentum.

Third, if I wanted to do an OMGUS vote I'd have cast it upon Bulvious, but if you look at my reply to his vote I didn't accuse him of anything at all, and stated that I thought he was a townie.
You sure change opinions fast when the wind blows a certain direction. To me, your vote still looks like it reeks of scumminess. Yes you're allowed to change opinion, but in this case, it seems very awkward, especially considering that after posting "and I have read the whole game a few times" and not finding anything scummy, you decide that something posted prior to that was indeed very scummy. And it probably didn't require you to reread anything!

[Isa]

EBWOP.

I didn't address this enough:
"Why is the fact that I am trying to build momentum against you scummy. I am voting and trying to get lynched someone who I believe to be scum."
It's not scummy to try to build momentum per sé, but the way you've done it strikes me as just so inconsistent and logically flawed that I must question it. A vote based on me questioning the strength in a L-1 vote (really, how is this an argument for me being scum?) and something I've already addressed as an error, apologized for and hopefully soon made up for, and you decide that these are things that must be clear scum tells, in fact the clearest scum tells so far? I believe you have a very weak case.

[Bulvious]

Ill wrote:
You were pretty much interrogating him to the point where he got frustrated, that's what I mean by pressure. I never said he was in danger of getting lynched because of you, so not sure why you are overreacting.

Perfect! A frustrated scum is more likely to mess up. Granted, he didn't slip, and he might not be scum, but if I can frustrate SOMEONE into slipping and becoming obv scum - fat chance, but hell, I welcome any chance. As far as the latter sentence, here's something you wrote:

it leads to a townie being lynched.

It did not, and that's what I was saying, that there was no way that we likely. How is this over-reacting?

Am I not allowed to post my thoughts about who I feel is scum? I just posted who I think was scummy after going through the thread. Mostly just quickly shared my observations to show you guys that I have been trying to do some scumhunting instead of just lurking like I have been accused of.

Of course you're entitled to your thoughts, but I'm entitled to defend myself, right? Not only that, but you didn't really share anything new other than the bit with Isa which wasn't true. People already complained about my questions and pressure, you basically read what someone else wrote down and even after that was dismissed you thought it brillient enough to rehash. Lazy.

@Isa, nothing particular to quote here, but I actually thought his criticism (which was basically revoicing mine) of your askance to pressure you was fair. The vote - not really.

Green wrote:
Could this not be more forgivable by newbies? I am an indecisive person. I am quite happy to show that to people. That may come across as scummy to some people. I hope it doesn't, as I am just trying to show my thought processes over who I think is mafia.

Of course it is, I didn't vote for him or press for him to be lynched. This is very much a learning experience for you, but I just figured giving you my opinion on it for future reference couldn't hurt you at all.

Green wrote:
Then I am missing it. What I mostly see from him is advice, not play in a manner that allows me to judge whether he is scum or town. The provision of advice is surely something a good IC would attempt to do anyway, so I can't draw conclusions from that. Beyond that, what is there? I am sure I am being hugely dense, but here I would appreciate a little assistance.

For example, he's interested in seeing the day through, in noting L-1. His RVQ was the first and only question to the whole playerbase before mine (As far as I can tell.) He's paying attention - he was one of the first if not THE first to point out Ill's lurking, something I personally hadn't noticed. He's also establishing a meta for some of the newer players, asking them how long they've been playing and if they've been playing on other forums. A lot of his play is town, though there is some scum motivation for a bit of it. Point is, he has things you can judge him on. Try to think on his actions and reasons why without necessarily second guessing him. Make sure to look at both sides, a lot of players make the mistake of creating a hypothetical situation and accepting it as true. Like Player Y defended Player Z and so that's his motivation for NKing Player D.

Also, in regards to your case against Isa, make sure to form your own thoughts and restate the reasons why you are voting for him and give quoted evidence to back it up. Try not to be too repetitive, though.

[Isa]

@Bulvious, I agree with you, but if it wasn't for the vote, I don't think I would have cast a vote upon Green either (this is not to say that my vote was an OMGUS vote, but Green showed clear intentions upon the casting of his vote). However, if you think that his vote wasn't really fair, why do you still keep yours on me, given that his arguments were basically yours slightly repackaged?

[Bulvious]

Because you wanted the pressure so bad.


Nah, I just haven't moved it. I sort of want it on Ill, but as I said, L-2 is enough, and I definitely want my vote out there. But, here you go.

UNVOTE: Isa

Vote: Maziek

No input, her vote on Verydark still stands without more reasoning considering we're out of the R's. Her content is lacking, she hasn't placed any new pressure, or made any new comments.

[Maziek]

Comments on page 5:

"Maziek:
Just a question, why do you want to use colour all the time instead of just for special occasions. Not much of consequence, just wondered. You seem to have lapsed in your posting recently and it would be good to hear from you on recent developments."

Because I'm used to it, plus I didn't know people hated it over here.

Uhh, lapsed? It's true that I'm not posting a lot I guess if that's what you mean.

"I'm not making it personal about Maziek voting for me, but after reviewing, he's quick to call people out, but not very forthcoming on his own. Almost like he's trying to incite a fight. I'm definitely eyeing him as scum. Everyone else seems pretty reasonable with their responses. I'll remain voteless for a bit until the day unfolds a little more, if RVS is considered "over", I don't feel comfortable casting a vote when I don't have any evidence or reason to back it up."

Start a fight? Lol.

Okay, so this is what you've done so far:

Suggested no lynch
Suggested that cop does our work
Shrug off my attacks
Put an inactive at L-1 4 pages into the game

and you're thinking that I shouldn't be voting you still?

My vote will be staying.

[Maziek]

Comments on Page 6:

Isa ugu you got to what I wanted to about very dark before I did. :/.

is Ill still on L-2? I thought two people unvoted?

I haven't posted much content because I've been not here? Don't know how to defend against not being here.

My thoughts on verydark (my scum pick):

His vote on Illmatic was very suspicious to me. Putting him at L-1 in a newbie game on page 4 for pressure is something that I really find scummy. It's even more scummy that as soon as Illmatic posted, he unvoted right away. It showed that Illmatic wasn't one of his scum picks, and putting someone like that at L-1 so early when they're not your scum pick is just scummy

I'll admit that the stuff earlier may be newbie mistakes, but I'm not going to dismiss the fact that he suggested those things just because of newbie mistakes. That's how newbies win as mafia. Sorry if you don't agree with me.

It's also the fact that he used the newbie card so much when he defended against me. Don't like any of it at all.

This is where my vote will be staying for now.

[Maziek]

Oh, by the way, totally a guy :X

[Maziek]

Rereading random things (With quotes~):

I've realized that Otolia is quite scummy as well.

unvote: illmatic

He posted something and to be honest, I don't see the fear of the lynch that characterize newbie mafia players. Thus the risk of a quick failhammer outweigh the likelihood of him being scum. There is no point in taking so much risk this early in the day.

@Bulvious

: Case closed ?

Two things about this post.

1) I don't like the reasons as for why he unvoted at all. Afraid of being lynched? By an L-1 inactive vote?

If you were to go away for a week, and come back noticing that you were at L-1 early day, would you really think that you'd be lynched if you posted right away saying that you were back? Doubt it. It's obvious that he wasn't going to get lynched with the warning that was posted and the L-1 vote only saying that he should post more.

2) "Case Closed"? Explain what you meant by this please!

After that, you can realize that you told me to 'deal with' you giving an answer I didn't want.

And when I say that, I mean I deal with it by pursuing it until you stop being stubborn and wasting more of your own time than you would prefer, and answer.

I have done more than I should have to answer you. Yes it's preventing me to scumhunting because each time I see this thread, I want to smash my head at the walls of my room and cry for my mom in my bed.

I am willing to lynch every player who is absent for a long period, promise to deliver a long-catch up post but fail to do so and block the wagon because nobody wants to hammer someone in a position like this. I am willing to lynch active lurkers who suddenly disappear. I am willing to lynch every lurker who is slowing/hurting the flow of the game. But it doesn't mean, I will apply my policy every time. Mafia is a complex game, saying that you will do something for sure because there is so much unforeseen consequences. And hell with you, if what I said sounds wishy-washy to you. I won't lynch a player if I think it will cost me the game because that's the bottom line of Mafia. And it's an extreme policy because for some conservative people (like you probably) lynching townies is bad. Whereas I think that lynching townies who are hurting the game by lurking is better than lynching a maybe-scum who can still make a town post. Aside from that, I am more than likely to give the priority to people who are participating in the game than others because lurkers remove the fun from the game.

Whether I like it or not, we are not quite out of the RVS/RQS. And I'd rather not attack newbies this early. So far the only person who is lurking is illmaster but I don't see how it's hurting the town. Nevertheless he is the biggest wagon and Bulvious had a point, I have not been scumhunting.

Vote: Illmatic

Blech.

You're using aggravation as an excuse to not scum hunt at this point. Ewwww!

and this shows in the paragraph below when you go into detail about how you want to lynch lurkers and inactives over people that are maybe scummy. Do not like at all. Plus the "hell to you" statement was soooo not needed and it made you look worse.

Voting Illmatic because he's the biggest wagon and for something that Bulvious stated? You even say that it's not hurting the town and you still place your vote on him.

Scummy player. Put him below Verydark.

[Bulvious]

Sorry for refering to you incorrectly, Maziek. Oto was refering to my digging for an answer, he was asking if his would suffice - it did. Also, it'd be easier to read your posts if instead of using "" you were to use [quote] tags. I see you used it in the last one, but nonetheless.

In regards to you not being here, fair enough, I think I got more caught up in the fact that a lot of talking went on that you happened to be absent for than the actual time that elapsed while you were away.

[Maziek]

What was your second line responding to?

Oto was refering to my digging for an answer, he was asking if his would suffice- it did.

[Bulvious]

) "Case Closed"? Explain what you meant by this please!

[Greenealogist]

@Maziek Thanks for the answer. And yeah, by lapsed I meant that there hadn't been much activity from you.
@Bulvious Thanks for that. Some of those things I either hadn't seen or didn't really sway me much.
@Isa

the way you've done it strikes me as just so inconsistent and logically flawed that I must question it. A vote based on me questioning the strength in a L-1 vote (really, how is this an argument for me being scum?) and something I've already addressed as an error, apologized for and hopefully soon made up for, and you decide that these are things that must be clear scum tells, in fact the clearest scum tells so far?

To me, yes they are. The fact I'm voting for you reflects the fact that they are the most scummy things I've seen in the game. Something you've addressed as an error, okay, maybe I shouldn't incorporate that. But the fact remains that I cannot really see scum in anyone else, apart from a slight leaning towards illmatic due to his long period of inactivity. But, similarly, you had one. Rockynpoika has been replaced by someone who has actually posted so I shan't hold that against him.

Verydark, just the fact that you were willing to let someone push him off the end off that cliff is such a risky move that the townies should be very afraid of doing. You surely must have realized that 3 votes is still quite a bit of a pressure to put on someone, and that you can do a FoS, or just state that you'd vote for Ill if he wasn't at such a risky position. I mean, voting isn't the only way of putting pressure on someone.

Surely, if someone is at the verge of being hammered the pressure would be more than at L-2. I know for a fact that if I found I was at L-1 I would pull out everything I could in my defense. If I were at L-2 I may be less worried. I don't know, do others agree with this or is it a minority of one opinion? Still, I find your questioning of putting someone under pressure scummy.
I probably won't be posting again today (in real life) as I'm not well but I just felt I had to deal with this first.

[Isa]

@Green,

Now, it's not that I don't WANT my vote on Illmatic - it's just that in a newb game newbs can quick hammer on accident and we won't know if it's scum doing it or not. (My first game is a pretty big example of this.) I also think L-2 is quite enough this early in the day.

I'm not sure what to think of Verydark. I kind of brushed him off as a newbie townie after his No Vote, because he legitimately seemed confused about the RVS concept. So I'm not sure if his L-1 vote against me was scummy or if he didn’t understand the risk.

I'm not the only one questioning how wise it is/isn't to put someone at L-1.

[Tasky]

VOTECOUNT 1.7

illmatic (2/5): }|{opa, Dark_Creed
Isa (1/5): Greenealogist
verydark (1/5): Maziek
Greenealogist (1/5): Isa
Maziek (1/5): Bulvious

Not Voting (3): verydark, Otolia, illmatic

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline for D1 is 17.06.2011, 13:00 CET.

__

I will be away from today until saturday. Mr. Flay will replace me for that period.

[Otolia]

I closed the tab with my own wall.

I. HATE. YOU. ALL.

[Isa]

If you use Google Chrome, Ctrl+Shift+T will get you the latest closed tab back, probably with your wall as well.

[Jora]

I am a townie though as you will see.

I hope that was not a claim. Townies should not claim before it would become totally obvious that they will be lynched today.
So did you claimed your role or not?

Sad Examples: (...)

That is actually hilarious.

Funny, indeed. Not for me though. I was in those games.

@ Bulvious: thanks for defendind me http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3090215
I must admit, I have not much reads atm. And I'm not a good scumhunter. But here is something I have:
I don't want to clear you as town yet, but I really don't see a scum motivation behind your play.

UNVOTE:
Untill further investigations I'll consider Illmatic as town.

VOTE: Dark_Creed
His #1 post had awaked my scumdar. He keeping a low profile with one felicitous post. I don't want to say that making good but rare posts is scummy in general, just this time my gut tells me so. I should mention that second vote on a wagon is always worth an extra attention.

[Dark_Creed]

VOTE: Dark_Creed
His #1 post had awaked my scumdar. He keeping a low profile with one felicitous post. I don't want to say that making good but rare posts is scummy in general, just this time my gut tells me so. I should mention that second vote on a wagon is always worth an extra attention.

Well gut feelings tend to be wrong, but i guess you know that already. Don't really mind the vote though.

Also I don't really want to keep a low profile, it's just kinda hard to get into my first game, maybe especially because i'm a recent replacement and the others already had some time. And I'm usually the rather quiet type, that tends to only write something when it's important.

[verydark]

Comments on Page 6:

My thoughts on verydark (my scum pick):

His vote on Illmatic was very suspicious to me. Putting him at L-1 in a newbie game on page 4 for pressure is something that I really find scummy. It's even more scummy that as soon as Illmatic posted, he unvoted right away. It showed that Illmatic wasn't one of his scum picks, and putting someone like that at L-1 so early when they're not your scum pick is just scummy

I'll admit that the stuff earlier may be newbie mistakes, but I'm not going to dismiss the fact that he suggested those things just because of newbie mistakes. That's how newbies win as mafia. Sorry if you don't agree with me.

It's also the fact that he used the newbie card so much when he defended against me. Don't like any of it at all.

This is where my vote will be staying for now.

I explained myself. Again, I don't see how me putting the pressure on Illmatic is any more scummy that the other people who voted for him in that short period of time. I removed my vote immediately because it worked. It got him to talk, and there was no need to keep him at L-1.

That is all.

I guess I'm just failing to see how this is scummy.

[Isa]

@Verydark Because you can't end the day early by accident if someone's at L-2, you can at L-1, and in a Newbie game there's a risk that a hammer will come in those L-1 situations. It was a very unneeded risk, and if you don't see the difference between a L-3 vote and a L-1 vote, then I don't know what to say.

[Otolia]

@Verydark Because you can't end the day early by accident if someone's at L-2, you can at L-1, and in a Newbie game there's a risk that a hammer will come in those L-1 situations. It was a very unneeded risk, and if you don't see the difference between a L-3 vote and a L-1 vote, then I don't know what to say.

And then you come on my back asking why I unvoted ? Come on Isa ...

I'll post more content this afternoon.

[Isa]

I haven't asked you why you unvoted, Otolia. Don't get me mixed up with Maziek.

[illmatic]

Surely, if someone is at the verge of being hammered the pressure would be more than at L-2. I know for a fact that if I found I was at L-1 I would pull out everything I could in my defense. If I were at L-2 I may be less worried. I don't know, do others agree with this or is it a minority of one opinion? Still, I find your questioning of putting someone under pressure scummy.
I probably won't be posting again today (in real life) as I'm not well but I just felt I had to deal with this first.

I think L-2 is good enough to put pressure on someone. Sure, when it's L-1 you have more pressure but it also becomes more of a risk, especially in a newbie game. Someone can just quickly glance through the thread and go along with everyone and vote without reading details. I was reading a newbie game thread before our game started and in Day 1 pretty much the same thing happened that happened here, with them voting for an inactive lurker, except someone hammered after several others clearly said no one hammer.

I hope that was not a claim. Townies should not claim before it would become totally obvious that they will be lynched today.
So did you claimed your role or not?

Well, it's not much of a claim. Out of 9 of us 7 are townies. I didn't claim to be the Cop, Doctor or Jailer, just said that I was a townie. Didn't think it was a big deal