Newbie 1109: Paradise City (Game Over)

[Jora]

Hmmm... From all the conversations I've read, I don't think that I can pin somebody for somethig.

However, I tend to pressurise Illmatic for lurking. (rockynpoika is not a lurker, I think he is kind of not in the game yet)

VOTE: Illmatic

Aaaand, I have some time for ICing.

If you have a game-mechanics related question or any other question feel free to ask our Mod via PM. Mod will be pleased to help you. If you feel that your question (needs to/may) be openly discussed then better ask in this thread directly. Never ask questions outside the theread. Do not start any conversations, nor publish any information outside this thread from which your role could be compromised.

Sad Examples:
1) One stupid townie had created the thread in Mafia Discussion with some kind of question like this: "how do mafias speak in their quicktopic". Which resulted in a modkill. Town lost that game.
2) One stupid mafia had placed in his wiki-scummer-page something like this: "how dare *player name* hammered me", as a result townies used it for confirming innocence of *player name* and that game was broken.

[Otolia]

Sad Examples:
1) One stupid townie had created the thread in Mafia Discussion with some kind of question like this: "how do mafias speak in their quicktopic". Which resulted in a modkill. Town lost that game.
2) One stupid mafia had placed in his wiki-scummer-page something like this: "how dare *player name* hammered me", as a result townies used it for confirming innocence of *player name* and that game was broken.

ROFL

[Bulvious]

@Isa You're asking for people to do your job for you, that's something scum would do because they have no real need to scumhunt for obvious reasons but again, that's something you seem to understand. MY problem is that you ask for others to pressure you when you need to be pressuring other people as town. You seem more interesting in verifying your towny-ness than you are in finding scum. Anyway, it all builds up to lead me to believe you're a good candidate for scum.

VOTE: Isa

Otolia wrote:
"Wishy-Washy" positions is not a scumtell, especially when it's about a policy.

Bullox, wishy washy positions mean one of two things. You're scum and you don't want to be held to something, or that you're indecisive. You have more than 24 hours to post before anyone looks at you really suspiciously for not answering a question - there's no reason to be indecisive. Hence why I make it important to note. As far as "Bulvious, just drop it" goes, I don't see how my taking a couple minutes to write to you about something detracts at all from the conversation in the game. If anything, it stimulates it, and gives people things to later reference us with - something that is quite good for town.

@Green Next time try not to take too big of a stance before you back off of it and admit you're wrong. Gather information before making bold claims. (Granted, it's not like you backed your suspicion with a vote, but if you're going to take a stance ensure that you won't be fickle about it.)

@Verydark Read everyones posts and respond to questions accordingly as they come up so you don't end up not seeing them and thus having to be repetitively reminded of them. It looks evasive. Additionally, there's nothing wrong with early voting - pressure is something we want to have in this game so that people talk more. The only way this could be a bad decision for her is if you intend to NK her because of her suspicion.

[Otolia]

WHAT THE ****ING HELL DO YOU WANT TO KNOW, BULVIOUS ? I ALREADY ANSWERED YOUR BLOODY QUESTIONS ! AND I CAN SAY IT'S HURTING MY BRAIN !

[Tasky]

Dark_Creed

replaces

rockynpoika

, effective immediately.

[Bulvious]

You could start by calming the hell down. After that, you can realize that you told me to 'deal with' you giving an answer I didn't want. The answer you gave was BS, and you've yet to prove to me it isn't anything more than that. I want a real answer, one I can hold you to - what's the extreme you're willing to go to to pursue lurkers?
Thus far you haven't addressed ANY of the lurking that has occured - so when you say "extreme" you're obviously full of it.

So, once you're done with those two things, you can start making some contributions to the game other than crying and whining about how I'm supporting my line of reasing and questioning. I mean, even if my questioning of you doesn't have much substance (and whose to say it doesn't?) at least is has SOME. You've responded to one person - Isa - after his lurking, and two out of three of your points said nor did anything. "Don't taunt people, that's just dumb" you tell him not to taunt people and in the same line you call what he's doing dumb, that being your third point. Your second was simply untrue in that Green DID talk a bit about alignment and so he clearly had read the thread.

In fact, going through an ISO, you respond to two people (as far as content goes), and that's Isa and myself. Where's your pressure? Where's your own questioning?

Whine all you want about how I'M contributing, at least do some of it yourself going beyond complaining about the only person you are responding to (because he's addressing you.)

[Bulvious]

After that, you can realize that you told me to 'deal with' you giving an answer I didn't want.

And when I say that, I mean I deal with it by pursuing it until you stop being stubborn and wasting more of your own time than you would prefer, and answer.

[Dark_Creed]

Hey Guys, I'm the Replacement for rockynpoika.

I'm going to read through the thread tomorrow, since it's kinda late here.
Just wanted to check in.

[Isa]

Hey Dark.

@Isa You're asking for people to do your job for you, that's something scum would do because they have no real need to scumhunt for obvious reasons but again, that's something you seem to understand. MY problem is that you ask for others to pressure you when you need to be pressuring other people as town. You seem more interesting in verifying your towny-ness than you are in finding scum. Anyway, it all builds up to lead me to believe you're a good candidate for scum.

VOTE: Isa

I see your point. In the Mafia games I've played so far, both IRL and on another forum, the standard has been to lynch the silent ones (no prodding/replacing, small community), mainly skipping the RVS which I am a bit unfamiliar with. I'm also used to lead scum hunts, but in this game, I became passive and have stood by the sidelines when I noticed that the game carried on just fine without me. Nobody pressured me, so I didn't feel the need to act or the willingness to contribute. Yes, this is counter-intuitive to what I just said about me being used to lynch silent ones.
Sooo my defence ends up like this: Asking for you to put pressure on me wasn't meant to make me look more towny, but to actually put pressure on me so that I had to become involved in the game once again. I welcome your vote because now I actually have to do something. I realize that it was a mistake to word myself like I did. I can't undo it though, but I don't want to, because I feel more involved now.

Moving on and hopefully learning from my mistakes, I'm a believer in the Lynch all Lurkers policy at D1. Illmatic has successfully lurked for a while now, answering questions and casting a random vote doesn't really contribute as much as needed at this point...also, he's a bit of a Captain Obvious to me:
"2) What's your opinion of policy lynches?
Townies that appear scummy and don't help should be lynched, because they just confuse the town and give the mafia an advantage"
Should he continue in a similar fashion I'd like to see him lynched. If he does become more active, my vote right now would go towards Otolia, reason being that he hides behind strong words without effectively saying much.

Also, because we seem to have went through the RVS, UNVOTE: Maziek - generation 1 is still the best though.

[Dark_Creed]

Well just finished reading through the thread. Let's answer some of the earlier questions first.

1) Are you excited to be here?
Since this is my first game on this site: Yes I'm.

2) What's your opinion of policy lynches?
I don't really like policy lynches, at least in newbie games since people are just learning how to play. I'd rather lynch based on actual proof or at least suspicion. Lynching Lurkers is an exception to this though.

3) Is there any future V/La you're anticipating during this game?
No, at least not for now. Not really sure what might come up in the future.

4) What's your favorite direction on a compass?
North

As for my experience with mafia games:
I've both played and modded a game on another site. Also played a few games on irc.

Feel free to point out anything i might've missed.



As for who I think is scum:
- illmatic looks most suspicious right now, since he's been lurking most of the time.
- Isa also looks a little bit suspicious for playing really defensively rather than actively scum-hunting, which town players should do atm, however this has already been pointed out.
- And Otolia for kinda overreacting to Bulvious suspicion. Might just be a little pissed off by now though.

Not really any actual proof or stronger suspicion. Just some random thoughts since there isn't much to pin somebody as scum.
So just to add some pressure till something better comes up.

VOTE: Illmatic

[Tasky]

VOTECOUNT 1.5

verydark (1/5): Maziek
}|{opa (1/5): verydark
rockynpoika (1/5): Otolia
Bulvious (1/5): illmatic
illmatic (2/5): }|{opa, Dark_Creed
Isa (1/5): Bulvious

Not Voting (2): Greenealogist, Isa

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline for D1 is 17.06.2011, 13:00 CET.

[Otolia]

After that, you can realize that you told me to 'deal with' you giving an answer I didn't want.

And when I say that, I mean I deal with it by pursuing it until you stop being stubborn and wasting more of your own time than you would prefer, and answer.

I have done more than I should have to answer you. Yes it's preventing me to scumhunting because each time I see this thread, I want to smash my head at the walls of my room and cry for my mom in my bed.

I am willing to lynch every player who is absent for a long period, promise to deliver a long-catch up post but fail to do so and block the wagon because nobody wants to hammer someone in a position like this. I am willing to lynch active lurkers who suddenly disappear. I am willing to lynch every lurker who is slowing/hurting the flow of the game. But it doesn't mean, I will apply my policy every time. Mafia is a complex game, saying that you will do something for sure because there is so much unforeseen consequences. And hell with you, if what I said sounds wishy-washy to you. I won't lynch a player if I think it will cost me the game because that's the bottom line of Mafia. And it's an extreme policy because for some conservative people (like you probably) lynching townies is bad. Whereas I think that lynching townies who are hurting the game by lurking is better than lynching a maybe-scum who can still make a town post. Aside from that, I am more than likely to give the priority to people who are participating in the game than others because lurkers remove the fun from the game.

Whether I like it or not, we are not quite out of the RVS/RQS. And I'd rather not attack newbies this early. So far the only person who is lurking is illmaster but I don't see how it's hurting the town. Nevertheless he is the biggest wagon and Bulvious had a point, I have not been scumhunting.

VOTE: Illmatic

[Jora]

Hurray! L-3!

I love wagons. But as an IC I must say: we should not hammer that early. Town should get a thorough conversation. If someone will put a hammer during the next few days I will not be happy.

- Isa also looks a little bit suspicious for playing really defensively rather than actively scum-hunting, which town players should do atm, however this has already been pointed out.

@ Isa, do you agree with that you were defensive?

[Jora]

No it's L-2.
And it means "lynch minus two". When it would be L-1, do not vote without warning!

[Otolia]

Nobody is talking about hammering now Hopa ... Anyhow, lynching without warning is quite bad education even if you hammer a scum.

[verydark]

I just reviewed all the posts, and illmatic has only posted once. It might be a good idea to speak up.

As a result, I UNVOTE: }|{opa

And am turning the heat up...

VOTE: illmatic

[Jora]

@ Otolia
Just saying, because I must. Do you want a link to the newbie game which was spoiled because of ealy hammer? No one seen that coming, before it was too late.

WRNING L-1! No more votes for illmatic.

[Otolia]

Great. Now Bulvious will come on my back ... If illmatic doesn't post after being prodded, I will be asking for an hammer. I'd rather state that now.

@Mod

: Can you prod illmatic please ?

[Jora]

If illmatic doesn't post after being prodded, I will be asking for an hammer. I'd rather state that now.

Then illmatic will be replaced, don't ya think? No one should hammer him. At least not so fast.
If he pick up the prod, but keep flaking, that would be another situation.

[Otolia]

If illmatic doesn't post after being prodded, I will be asking for an hammer. I'd rather state that now.

If he pick up the prod, but keep flaking, that would be another situation.

That's what I meant.

[Isa]

- Isa also looks a little bit suspicious for playing really defensively rather than actively scum-hunting, which town players should do atm, however this has already been pointed out.

@ Isa, do you agree with that you were defensive?

I wouldn't call it offensive play, that's for sure. I can agree that my playing have been defensive.

Verydark, why did you put Illmatic at L-1 this early? An unannounced vote shouldn't happen, but it might. Wouldn't it be better if you just removed your vote seeing as we already have a bit of a pressure on Illmatic without your vote? Personally I think it's a bit scummy of you to put him at L-1 this early.

In two days, I will go on a four-day vacation. I'll be gone from Thursday morning to Sunday evening. Will I need to be replaced?

[illmatic]

I'm here guys! Sorry for not being too active. I suppose I deserve the votes, but thanks for not hammering early, that would be a bad idea.

I find Bulvious most suspicious at this point, which is why I haven't yet removed my RVS vote off of him. He is asking people a lot of questions, which is not a bad thing but it seems like he is "fishing for tells" as Otolia put it.

Maziek - voting for Verydark after his No Lynch vote after it was obvious he was confused about it and people had already addressed him. It just seemed like the obvious safe vote for someone

Also suspicious of Isa. Mostly a gut feeling, but it's strange how he calls me out on not contributing anything when he has contributed as much in scum hunting.

@illmatic, the only people town should ever want to lynch is scum, in my book. "Cleaning the pool" is all well and good until it comes to LyLo and you don't really have any scum pinned down."

Maybe I should clarify my policy more. I'm not saying you should lynch scummy townies until Lynch or Lose, but If there is someone who is acting scummy and is being a distraction where everyone else is only talking about him and not actively scum hunting, then he should be lynched, even when people think he might be a townie who has made a mistake and appears scummy. If that is holding up the discussion all they day, then I think it's best to just lynch him and get it over with.

[Bulvious]

@Otolia, THANK YOU! That answer was way way better. I think perhaps I didn't understand your previous answer in light of the second one.


Now, it's not that I don't WANT my vote on Illmatic - it's just that in a newb game newbs can quick hammer on accident and we won't know if it's scum doing it or not. (My first game is a pretty big example of this.) I also think L-2 is quite enough this early in the day.

Ill, you're new so I can understand the confusion - I guess. Questions are never a bad thing. Fishing for tells is not a bad thing (unless I'm missing the meaning behind "fishing". To me, in this game, every interaction is a line cast out to catch scum - if that's scummy, then I guess I need to stop playing cos I aint doing it right.)
Personally, I think you haven't taken your vote off of me because you find it convenient to point out what others already have, you're too lazy to search for a new person to place your vote on.
You've made 4 posts in the topic, one being a confirm. You've posted 3 times, 77 of the posts in this topic can be considered content (aka, outside of confirms, rofls, and mod posts). The average person will have contributed about 8-9 posts to the topic at this point (avg determined by content/players) So, you're well below the average - enough said, that was obvious.

So, you're suspicious of someone doing the job you're too lazy to do, your criticism of Maziek is fair, but is that really the only thing you can think of to say? Then you critisize Isa of posting as little as you, and he's at 7 posts (again, IF content was defined by not being confirm or mod posts). That's over twice what you have, and it seems like that is mostly OMGUS, "Wow, he said this of ME? LOOK AT HIM!" Yet he actually is a fair bit better than you, and granted he's below average as far as posting, he's close enough.

Erm, anyway, come up with a defense, you're a bit close to being lynched and you aren't squirming appropriately.

[Otolia]

UNVOTE: illmatic

He posted something and to be honest, I don't see the fear of the lynch that characterize newbie mafia players. Thus the risk of a quick failhammer outweigh the likelihood of him being scum. There is no point in taking so much risk this early in the day.

@Bulvious

: Case closed ?

[illmatic]

Ill, you're new so I can understand the confusion - I guess. Questions are never a bad thing. Fishing for tells is not a bad thing (unless I'm missing the meaning behind "fishing". To me, in this game, every interaction is a line cast out to catch scum - if that's scummy, then I guess I need to stop playing cos I aint doing it right.)

Asking questions aren't a bad thing, but I just found it a bit overdone the way you kept pushing pressure on Otolia. I've seen people do that and they find the smallest mistake in the response and call it a scum tell, and it leads to a townie being lynched.

Personally, I think you haven't taken your vote off of me because you find it convenient to point out what others already have, you're too lazy to search for a new person to place your vote on.
You've made 4 posts in the topic, one being a confirm. You've posted 3 times, 77 of the posts in this topic can be considered content (aka, outside of confirms, rofls, and mod posts). The average person will have contributed about 8-9 posts to the topic at this point (avg determined by content/players) So, you're well below the average - enough said, that was obvious.

So, you're suspicious of someone doing the job you're too lazy to do, your criticism of Maziek is fair, but is that really the only thing you can think of to say? Then you critisize Isa of posting as little as you, and he's at 7 posts (again, IF content was defined by not being confirm or mod posts). That's over twice what you have, and it seems like that is mostly OMGUS, "Wow, he said this of ME? LOOK AT HIM!" Yet he actually is a fair bit better than you, and granted he's below average as far as posting, he's close enough.

Number of posts doesn't mean anything. Someone can have a ton of posts without having done a lot of scum hunting. My accusation of Isa wasn't OMGUS, I just found it suspicious that he made that post at the time when people were starting to accuse me. It's pretty common for scum to lightly accuse someone who is being voted on.

And about my accusations, that's all I've got for now, those are just the people I find scummy right now in these 4 pages (3 not counting confirmations). It's still the beginning of Day 1 so there isn't much to go off of, so I don't know what kind of analysis you expect.

By the way, since I'm not familiar with this forum, is there a way you can check number of posts by people?