Newbie 1109: Paradise City (Game Over)

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 8:36 am

Post by Jora »

Isa wrote:In two days, I will go on a four-day vacation. I'll be gone from Thursday morning to Sunday evening. Will I need to be replaced?

I think not. Btw, this question is better to ask via PM to Mod directly. Mod usually announce all the V/LA players in the thread.
Or at least summon him like this (from the new line with bold, so he may notice):

Mod:
Isa asked about vacation.

I wanted to unvote, but Otolia did it.

@ illmatic Had you played mafia elsewhere?

Illmatic wrote:By the way, since I'm not familiar with this forum, is there a way you can check number of posts by people?


Click on "Display posts by user" below VVV
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or be dead. ☭
Jora is obv VT, if not, she is a Cop. Simple.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 8:43 am

Post by illmatic »

}|{opa wrote:
@ illmatic Had you played mafia elsewhere?


Yeah, I've played a few games on a Zelda Dungeon.net, where mafia games are pretty popular. First game on here though.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 8:51 am

Post by illmatic »

EBWODP

}|{opa wrote:
Click on "Display posts by user" below VVV

Thanks. Clicking on "Activity Overview" on the bottom right displays number of posts

And another question, in these newbie games are we allowed to role claim or soft claim?
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 8:52 am

Post by Isa »

Call me a hypocrite but I can point out flaws in others even if I have the same flaws myself.
I didn't want to put a vote on you, Ill, because had I done so, you may have been lynched by now. The reasons you were voted for were legit (seeing as a majority of the others voted or said they were suspicious of you, I feel this is a pretty safe assumption). I've also contributed at least slightly more than you have in terms of scumhunting, I don't see a lot of heads turned towards Verydark's L-1 vote against you for example, which is a vote I find suspicious.
I think being suspicious of Bulvious because of his questions is exaggerating as well.
You changed your reason of being suspicious of me completely between two posts - make up your mind. I think that your second reason for accusing me of being scum is just something you added because your first reason really WAS an OMGUS vote (and also committing the same crime you accused me off, not contributing much but still voting for others with similar low levels of contribution).

It should also be noted that now that you're posting again, and actually providing us with something to work with (which your previous posts did not), most votes will fall off.
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 8:54 am

Post by Isa »

Role claiming generally should be avoided until you have someone ready to hammer you, or you're the cop and have at least one guilty on your list of Mafia. I don't think you should ever claim cop - someone enlighten me with a case where that'd be helpful?
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 8:55 am

Post by Isa »

EBWODP - should ever claim DOC, not cop.
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 9:12 am

Post by Dark_Creed »

Keeping my vote on illmatic for now.
His defense didn't really convince me, well it's mostly because there's nothing better at the moment.
Doesn't look like he's in danger of a quick lynch anytime soon so it should be alright.

@Isa:
Well I'm a newb myself but from what i've seen and read till now i guess that's right. You shouldn't RC as Doc, since mafia would immediately target you, forcing you to either protect yourself all the time, which would make you kinda useless, or playing mind games which might fail.
You should still claim before getting lynched though.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 9:20 am

Post by Otolia »

Dark_Creed
: Who are you ?
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 9:26 am

Post by illmatic »

@Isa I haven't voted for you. My vote has been on Bulvious since RVS. You've definitely contributed more than me, I just found it suspicous that you hadn't done much scum hunting but you accused me of it around the time I was getting heat on me, yet at the same time you didn't vote for me.

Anyway, I was just sharing my thoughts on the 3 people who I currently find most suspicious, since I hadn't posted accusations on anyone yet. I'm not saying all three of you are definitely scum, but will keep my observations on you in mind

I'm not sure what to think of Verydark. I kind of brushed him off as a newbie townie after his No Vote, because he legitimately seemed confused about the RVS concept. So I'm not sure if his L-1 vote against me was scummy or if he didn’t understand the risk.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 9:29 am

Post by illmatic »

I should also add that I probably won't be able to post tomorrow because I have finals. I will be back the following day though and be able to really focus on this. If I am lynched before then, then so be it. I am a townie though as you will see.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 9:33 am

Post by Greenealogist »

Right then, let's see what there is to say.

Isa:
Personally I think it's a bit scummy of you to put him at L-1 this early.

How is it scummy to vote for someone you think is scum? While I can see that it is not neccessarily a good idea to put someone at L-1, it doesn't make it scummy. I think you might be misreading this. Also, trying to get others to put pressure on you so you would be involved in the game? I thought that Mafia was a game you were supposed to be involved in, not a game where you tried to make others get you involved. And no, I won't call you a hypocrite.

Illmatic:
Number of posts doesn't mean anything

Actually, in this case I think it does. Because you haven't been posting, you haven't been involved in the scumhunting, and so not helping the town. That comes across to me as if not scummy then certainly bad play. Furthermore, people who have posted many things have been scumhunting actively (case in point: Bulvious).

Dark_creed:
Not much to say here. Just a couple of posts, understandable as a recent replacement. And also some suspicions, although as I have stated I would have to disagree with the Otolia thing as that is pretty much how I'd react. Looking forwards to hearing more from you.

Bulvious:
I've had a dramatic reversal of heart (or should that be gut) in my feelings towards your alignment. I am seeing you as a voracious town player. I can see why you were pursuing Otolia, and to be honest I'm glad that it is finished (hopefully!), but I do think that he was trying to answer your question. Other than that not much to say, other than that I disagree with wishy-washy being a reliable scumtell, I am sure at some point I will show my indecisive side.

Otolia:
Despite the volume of posts I don't have much to say, as most of them are defending yourself (wrong words, but...) against Bulvious. As such, I don't really know what to make of you, apart from that it was either frustrated innocence or a good show of it.

}|{Opa:
Again, not really much to say. I haven't had much that I feel I can judge on from you.
However:
Sad Examples:
1) One stupid townie had created the thread in Mafia Discussion with some kind of question like this: "how do mafias speak in their quicktopic". Which resulted in a modkill. Town lost that game.
2) One stupid mafia had placed in his wiki-scummer-page something like this: "how dare *player name* hammered me", as a result townies used it for confirming innocence of *player name* and that game was broken.

That is actually hilarious.

verydark:
Again, not much to say. Your early confusion is quite understandable and as you understand it now there seems to be no harm done. Once again, not an awful lot of content, and I don't believe your taking Illmatic to L-1 was scummy, as it seems in the same vein as the cop confusion.

Maziek:
Just a question, why do you want to use colour all the time instead of just for special occasions. Not much of consequence, just wondered. You seem to have lapsed in your posting recently and it would be good to hear from you on recent developments.

So, I think that's everyone. To sum up my thoughts:
Town: Bulvious
Scum: Isa?
Neutral, but leaning towards town: verydark, Otolia, }|{Opa, Dark_Creed
Neutral, but leaning towards mafia: Illmatic
Completely neutral: Maziek
[insert pithy message of choice here]
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 9:34 am

Post by Greenealogist »

Oh, I forgot:
VOTE: Isa
[insert pithy message of choice here]
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 9:43 am

Post by illmatic »

Greenealogist wrote:
Illmatic:
Number of posts doesn't mean anything

Actually, in this case I think it does. Because you haven't been posting, you haven't been involved in the scumhunting, and so not helping the town. That comes across to me as if not scummy then certainly bad play. Furthermore, people who have posted many things have been scumhunting actively (case in point: Bulvious).


Agreed, in my case since I hadn't been posting much. But what I was trying to say was that you can't just look at the number of posts in a game and say that someone who has more posts means he has been scumhunting more. There are people who make large posts with a lot of content, and others who make many short posts 1 or 2 sentences long.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 9:49 am

Post by Isa »

Green, reason for vote being?
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 9:57 am

Post by Greenealogist »

@Illmatic Ah, sorry, I misunderstood. Thanks for the clarification.

@Isa Reason for vote being that your play seems to me to be scummy. You want others to put pressure on you so you'll play the game? Sorry, but that strikes me as an awful excuse. Furthermore, to me you seem to be trying to finger others as scum just because they are doing things you don't agree with, eg. putting someone on L-1. To me, that seems more like trying to really pressure someone than scummy. As such, I feel you are the best candidate for my vote.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 10:08 am

Post by Bulvious »

Are you kidding, Ill? What pressure was there? There wasn't a single vote on him from what I said - not even MY vote was on him. So how was he going to get lynched? There was no danger of it. You're being obtuse over something that's so plainly ridiculous.

You're right, number of posts doesn't mean much, that's why I clarified what I meant with content. I think we can pretty much say that all but two of his posts (not even including confirmation) are content, and as far as posting large posts with lots of content - I'd appreciate seeing a couple from you.
And yes, it is pretty common for scum to prod town in the direction they want them to go - but it's also common for town to comment on the actions of other players both before AND after it's noted by the group.

Analysis? Jesus, no one expects you to do an ISO right now, but you can start by talking openly with people. The fact of the matter is, you didn't do any interacting with me to find out if I was scummy, you didn't even give a somewhat decent reason for it in any case. And Isa's wasn't a whole heck of a lot better.

To sum it up: Start hunting.

@Otolia Yep, for now. Also, Dark is a replacement - the first and only I hope.

@Green A pretty comprehensive list - but it doesn't leave much open for interaction. You put some heat on Isa, but only because you seem to disagree with him?
Additionally, I never recall saying that being wishy-washy is a reliable scum tell, I said it was scummy, it doesn't tell us definitively that he is scum, but it's not an action that is at all townish, or even neutral. It's an attempt to be neutral so that you don't take a stance and so you can't be called out on it. Granted, I don't think that's what he's being any more after clarifying, but there is nothing good about being indecisive publicly in Mafia.



That said and done, Green, there's a lot of play Opa has made for you to judge him by. That alone makes me feel like you made a list off the top of your head for town points - not something you actually took the time to analyze. You don't ask any questions, you don't take a step further to hunt - you basically just tell the town where you're at with that big post. Which is great, and I can understand the fear of being mislynched as town, but what else do you see? Has anyone made a move that seems questionable? What about any buddying going on? Take for example my defense of Isa in regards to illmatic, are you noticing any other instances of that? Take note of those and keep them in mind, keep a tally of the players you notice this behavior from. The ticket is to not jump them right as you think they did something scummy, but to wait and see if they do it again. The second you jump them, you better have enough evidence because they won't make that mistake again if they're scum and believe it truly was a mistake (which they usually tend to.)

That goes for all of the players in this game, I think it's fair advice.

EBWOP: Green gave a reason for his vote against Isa and I think I addressed that above, disregard if it doesn't apply anymore.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 10:08 am

Post by Dark_Creed »

Otolia wrote:
Dark_Creed
: Who are you ?


Dark_Creed wrote:Hey Guys, I'm the Replacement for rockynpoika.

I'm going to read through the thread tomorrow, since it's kinda late here.
Just wanted to check in.


Should answer your question.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 10:10 am

Post by Bulvious »

EBWODP: Additionally, we're reaching that point in the game where quoting would be a very good idea, I think sometime during P3 or 4 we left RVS/RQS so we need to make more note of what we're replying to. That said, I apologize for not doing so above, it was sort of an after thought and this post was done over the course of two hours due to distractions, and THAT said, sorry if some of the thoughts seem incomplete.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 10:28 am

Post by verydark »

A lot has happened in a few hours! Not lurking, just working.

After catching up, and getting a feel for Ill, I'm going to UNVOTE: Illmatic

I'm not making it personal about Maziek voting for me, but after reviewing, he's quick to call people out, but not very forthcoming on his own. Almost like he's trying to incite a fight. I'm definitely eyeing him as scum. Everyone else seems pretty reasonable with their responses. I'll remain voteless for a bit until the day unfolds a little more, if RVS is considered "over", I don't feel comfortable casting a vote when I don't have any evidence or reason to back it up.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 10:35 am

Post by illmatic »

Bulvious wrote:Are you kidding, Ill? What pressure was there? There wasn't a single vote on him from what I said - not even MY vote was on him. So how was he going to get lynched? There was no danger of it. You're being obtuse over something that's so plainly ridiculous.

Analysis? Jesus, no one expects you to do an ISO right now, but you can start by talking openly with people. The fact of the matter is, you didn't do any interacting with me to find out if I was scummy, you didn't even give a somewhat decent reason for it in any case. And Isa's wasn't a whole heck of a lot better.

To sum it up: Start hunting.

I assume your reacting to this post of mine:
illmatic wrote:
Asking questions aren't a bad thing, but I just found it a bit overdone the way you kept pushing pressure on Otolia. I've seen people do that and they find the smallest mistake in the response and call it a scum tell, and it leads to a townie being lynched.

You were pretty much interrogating him to the point where he got frustrated, that's what I mean by pressure. I never said he was in danger of getting lynched because of you, so not sure why you are overreacting.

Am I not allowed to post my thoughts about who I feel is scum? I just posted who I think was scummy after going through the thread. Mostly just quickly shared my observations to show you guys that I have been trying to do some scumhunting instead of just lurking like I have been accused of. I probably wouldn't have voted for you because of that, but I already had my vote on you from RVS.

Anyway, I guess I don't see the need for my vote to still be on you at this point, so
UNVOTE: Bulvious
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 10:40 am

Post by illmatic »

verydark wrote:A lot has happened in a few hours! Not lurking, just working.

After catching up, and getting a feel for Ill, I'm going to UNVOTE: Illmatic

I'm not making it personal about Maziek voting for me, but after reviewing, he's quick to call people out, but not very forthcoming on his own. Almost like he's trying to incite a fight. I'm definitely eyeing him as scum. Everyone else seems pretty reasonable with their responses. I'll remain voteless for a bit until the day unfolds a little more, if RVS is considered "over", I don't feel comfortable casting a vote when I don't have any evidence or reason to back it up.

@verydark what do you think about what Isa said about it being suspicious that you voted me to L-1? :

Isa wrote:
Verydark, why did you put Illmatic at L-1 this early? An unannounced vote shouldn't happen, but it might. Wouldn't it be better if you just removed your vote seeing as we already have a bit of a pressure on Illmatic without your vote? Personally I think it's a bit scummy of you to put him at L-1 this early.

Isa wrote: I don't see a lot of heads turned towards Verydark's L-1 vote against you for example, which is a vote I find suspicious.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 10:40 am

Post by Tasky »

VOTECOUNT 1.6


illmatic (2/5): }|{opa, Dark_Creed
Isa (2/5): Bulvious, Greenealogist
verydark (1/5): Maziek

Not Voting (4): Isa, verydark, Otolia, illmatic

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline for D1 is 17.06.2011, 13:00 CET.



__



Isa wrote:In two days, I will go on a four-day vacation. I'll be gone from Thursday morning to Sunday evening. Will I need to be replaced?

noted, don't worry.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 10:44 am

Post by Isa »

@Green If you found it so scummy that I wanted people to pressure me (which I've already addressed as a misplay), why didn't you call me out on that when you responded to that actual post? It took you a day to come up with that conclusion, and in your post where you addressed me...well let me just quote you:
Greenealogist wrote:From what I've read (and I have read the whole game a few times) I can't really identify anyone as scummy any more, having read over it with a different eye.
My guess is that you are identifying that attention has been drawn to me now, and try to join in on a potential bandwagon without looking scummy.

I'll also second what Bulvious said about your vote at me. It strikes me as if your vote towards me was motivated purely by your opinions on my doings, not that you actually believe that I am scum.

I think that you try to build/continue momentum against me in a discreet way, but it smells of scum. You're not acting in a logical way, and so, VOTE: Greenealogist.

Also, thanks Tasky.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 10:55 am

Post by verydark »

@verydark what do you think about what Isa said about it being suspicious that you voted me to L-1? :


I guess I can see how that would be suspicious, however, I only voted for you as a gesture that you needed to start talking. I figured that getting you to L-1 would spark some conversation amongst everyone and possibly shed some light on people's motives. I don't see why my vote is anymore suspicious than the other people who voted for you within hours of eachother. I took you to the edge of the cliff, but I didn't push you over.
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Tue May 31, 2011 11:00 am

Post by Greenealogist »

Bulvious
I never recall saying that being wishy-washy is a reliable scum tell, I said it was scummy

True. An error on my part.
There is nothing good about being indecisive publicly in Mafia.

Could this not be more forgivable by newbies? I am an indecisive person. I am quite happy to show that to people. That may come across as scummy to some people. I hope it doesn't, as I am just trying to show my thought processes over who I think is mafia.
That said and done, Green, there's a lot of play Opa has made for you to judge him by.

Then I am missing it. What I mostly see from him is advice, not play in a manner that allows me to judge whether he is scum or town. The provision of advice is surely something a good IC would attempt to do anyway, so I can't draw conclusions from that. Beyond that, what is there? I am sure I am being hugely dense, but here I would appreciate a little assistance.
That alone makes me feel like you made a list off the top of your head for town points

Partially true. The main aim of the post was for town points, but I went back through the thread as I did so to find the things I did. And, as for the advice, thanks. I will bear it in mind for the future. The post was mostly just an attempt to show what was running through my mind at the time. If that was not what I should have done, I apologise.

Isa
why didn't you call me out on that when you responded to that actual post?

Because it had already been mentioned by Otolia. Why would I bring up the same point again just as repetition. At the time, I was more concerned with the section regarding myself than the rest. I admit, I jumped into that reply, and probably shouldn't have done.
My guess is that you are identifying that attention has been drawn to me now, and try to join in on a potential bandwagon without looking scummy

No, I do think that you are scummy, not because attention has been drawn to you. If I were voting for people to whom attention had been drawn, why didn't I vote for Otolia, or illmatic? I am voting for you because I think you are scum.
I think that you try to build/continue momentum against me in a discreet way, but it smells of scum.

Why is the fact that I am trying to build momentum against you scummy. I am voting and trying to get lynched someone who I believe to be scum.
Finally, is my opinion not allowed to change over the:
From what I've read (and I have read the whole game a few times) I can't really identify anyone as scummy any more, having read over it with a different eye.

comment. I have made mistakes in this game, and I'll admit it. However, to me, changing my opinion on this is just me being honest.
So, to me your post seems like scum trying to reflect back suspicion onto one of their voters.
[insert pithy message of choice here]

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