Newbie 1104 -- Game over
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Twistedspoon Jack of All Trades
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I want catchup posts from Haylen, CC and Espe shortly
If a doctor protected CC or Espe then it makes them very likely town and that would be useful info to know so we don't go barking up the wrong tree.
In fact if we do have a doc he and the person he protected would be confirmed town
probably not a food idea to claim now though
and Haylen will outclass my ICness and make me feel like i'm a newbie again :3
to get things going
VOTE: Noragar
can't deny otolia was pro-norgar
ninja'd: Hey haylen. I've always considered myself confirmed town since I got my role PM. I don't think you should though; you don't have my role PM i mean
also, when you catchup you'll see the reasons why i think your slot is 99% conf town after Otolia's flip1 Thessalonians 5:21: Test everything, but hold fast onto what is good
"Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick"
~Screwtape-
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CaptainCuddles Townie
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Twistedspoon Jack of All Trades
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Twistedspoon Jack of All Trades
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Twistedspoon Jack of All Trades
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flip's ISO
he's on otolia like a yo-yo
I mean
chkflip wrote:Otolia's play is a little scummy overall, though. I can link to a recently ended town win with him being the hammer in lylo.
These sentences seem contradictory; what I'm saying is that he has his ups and his downs. It'd be best to shake him first, for sure.
what happened to this reason for otolia town?
chkflip wrote:Otolia, in a hypothetical world where you're scum... who would be your partner?
and this question looks like fair bussing material. I can't see what else it could be
I have no idea what alignment flippy is. He's certainly helpful though in the otolia wagon.
this is your call town1 Thessalonians 5:21: Test everything, but hold fast onto what is good
"Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick"
~Screwtape-
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gbevilchaos Goon
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Twistedspoon wrote:flip's ISO
he's on otolia like a yo-yo
I mean
chkflip wrote:Otolia's play is a little scummy overall, though. I can link to a recently ended town win with him being the hammer in lylo.
These sentences seem contradictory; what I'm saying is that he has his ups and his downs. It'd be best to shake him first, for sure.
what happened to this reason for otolia town?
chkflip wrote:Otolia, in a hypothetical world where you're scum... who would be your partner?
and this question looks like fair bussing material. I can't see what else it could be
I have no idea what alignment flippy is. He's certainly helpful though in the otolia wagon.
this is your call town
Hmm. That could very easily be bussing. The answer to that question would be so WIFOM that it would be of literally no use. Asking the question in the first place seems suspicious.
I'd like to hear Flip's reasoning behind it before I say anything. Was it just a joke?-
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noragar Goon
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Welcome back.
Here's my reads at the moment:
TwistedSpoon, gbevilchaos, and the Frostbite/Haylen spot - moderately strong town reads
forest_air - null - I caught a couple things toward the end of Day 1 that made me question my previous town read on her. Not enough to suspect as scum, but something I want to keep an eye on. I'll give specifics when the time is right.
Espeonage, CaptainCuddles - null - not really enough info to make an informed decision. I suspected CC early on for the explanation of L-1ing early on, but I'm willing to attribute that to inexperience. These two have pretty much stayed in the background the whole time. That in and of itself could be reason to suspect one of them, but I don't have anything specific or any indication to indicate which would be more likely.
Chkflip - leaning scum - my most likely candidate at the moment for reasons given when I had my vote on him during Day 1. So until something happens to change my mind, that's where my vote will be:
Vote: Chkflip-
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Haylen Life of the Third Party
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Questions
1) I have loads of mafia experience. Have been on this site for years, played just over 70 games. Modded quite a lot too mostly newbie games. Was nominated for best third party in my first year on site, best fake claim last year and best game flavour both years. This is my first experience with the new setup, however.
2) I live in England.
3) My activity will greatly diminish at the weekend due to work. I will be receiving my exam results either late June or early July, so my posting at that time will depend on how depressed I am about my results. I can't foresee anything else that might cause me to not post...
CC is a Publisher...this could be useful information for myself in the future.
Will do the rest tomorrow. It's nearly midnight.Seriously. Read your role PM before playing.
I am sorry if you have to prod me, I have absolutely no concept of time.
My prefered pronoun set is "cie/cir/cirs[elf]" but they is more than acceptable.-
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Espeonage anySurvivorany
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noragar Goon
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Thanks for the very interesting analysis Haylen. Regardless of the outcome and regardless of my alignment in this game details like this will be very helpful to me down the road. I actually agree with most of what you have to say.
One thing you did miss - you say somewhere in there that I said I have experience. This is my second game. No other experience on this server, any other server, or in any real life games.
What seems to be the recurring theme in your comments has to do with the abundance of defense instead of scumhunting. I think the lack of "scumhunting" comes from a lack of experience in scum-hunting methods. I don't really know what techniques are effective and which aren't, so rather than driving the action, I've tended to sit back and observe. The kinds of things I'm looking for are inconsistency of statements or actions, faulty logic, and people making statements with unsound reasoning behind them. I didn't want to initiate much scumhunting myself because I thought I was likely to make mistakes in those same areas that I was keying in on - not due to being scum, but due to being inexperienced. While it's the goal of scum not to appear scummy, I think it's also a goal for the town not to appear scummy.
As an example, take the case of Chkflip asking Otolia "Hypothetically, if you were scum, who would be your partner?" Just a few posts back, this was pointed out as sounding like a "scummy" attempt at scumhunting. I could easily see myself making a similar kind of mistake by using ineffective scumhunting techniques drawing suspicion on myself. Or in my first game where, like CC in this game, I took someone to L-1 on Page 2 in what I thought was a valid method, but turned out to be misguided method of scumhunting.
As far as the emotional defense - I had already made the logical arguments to refute every case that was presented against me. It looked like I was still about to be lynched, so I turned to the emotional reaction. Here is where we slightly disagree. In that particular situation, I think self-survival is important. I didn't have a solid case to present for anyone else to be scum. It would have been counterproductive to stretch things and try to fabricate a case against someone. Anything I said would have been wild speculation. I didn't know 100% who should be lynched. I only knew 100% that it shouldn't be me.
I understand that as a townie, the town win condition trumps whether I'm alive or dead at the end of the game. And I have no problem taking a lynch if it helps the town's chance of winning in any way. In this instance, however, the town would have gained nothing. It would have been no different than a lynch on Page 2 during the RVS. At that point, there was no case against me that had any merit, and I really didn't see any useful information that the town would have gained with that lynch.
I have no problem being lynched if it makes logical sense to need to eliminate me as a suspect, or if my flipping town leads to a strong probability that someone else is scum, or if since I've claimed Vanilla townie it's safer to lynch me that it is to risk lynching a power role, or if I'm less experienced and thus less helpful in catching scum, or any other reason that furthers the town's game and chances of winning. But if I don't see anything like that being the case, then I'm going to fight for survival.-
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forest_air Townie
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@noragar: To answer your question from the last day, I was just basing my opinions off of what had recently occured in the voting. I said I was going to go read over what happened to get a better read on the alive players. Unfortunately I am going to be very busy this week so I'm not sure when I'll have the time to do that.
As TS did earlier with Otolia being scum, I'm willing to get lynched because over the last few days I've skimmed over and chkflip hasn't done anything especially scummy. I'll provide my reasoning when I get back as I'm short on time even as I type this. I know this is very lame, but my gut tells me that chkflip is innocent. And you have been near the top of my list, so that's all I have to say for now.
Vote: noragar
@NS : Going V/LA"Familiarity breeds contempt."-
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Nobody Special Survivor
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forest_air wrote:@NS : Going V/LA
......Forever?-
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Twistedspoon Jack of All Trades
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Haylen wrote:
CC is a Publisher...this could be useful information for myself in the future.
iknowrite
gbevilchaos wrote:
Hmm. That could very easily be bussing. The answer to that question would be so WIFOM that it would be of literally no use. Asking the question in the first place seems suspicious.
My thoughts exactly
you and I are on the same wavelength here :s1 Thessalonians 5:21: Test everything, but hold fast onto what is good
"Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick"
~Screwtape-
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Haylen Life of the Third Party
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Fixed Quote tag. ~~NSLast edited by Nobody Special on Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.Seriously. Read your role PM before playing.
I am sorry if you have to prod me, I have absolutely no concept of time.
My prefered pronoun set is "cie/cir/cirs[elf]" but they is more than acceptable.-
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Twistedspoon Jack of All Trades
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Haylen Life of the Third Party
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Twistedspoon Jack of All Trades
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Haylen Life of the Third Party
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Haylen Life of the Third Party
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Twistedspoon Jack of All Trades
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Haylen Life of the Third Party
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Haylen Life of the Third Party
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gbevilchaos Goon
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Haylen wrote:This is my new tactic, btw. I'm walling scum out into the open and making them surrender this way.
You're doing this for everyone in all your games? Now that's commitment.
CC's case is a tad WIFOM to me. It could be noobscum or noobtown in my opinion. I do want to note that, while his activity was very high in the first few days, it has drifted off a little towards the end of the day. This could be a scum response to the pressure he received at the beginning of Day 1. He may figure that if he doesn't talk, he can't slip up again. I still would like to see more from him before I would be willing to vote his way.FoS CCthough.
Noragar reads more like noobtown than anything to me. Emotional seems noobtownish to me. He used more logic towards the end of Day 1 and in his response to Hayl's post against him, so I would consider it's a noob town learning how to play them game (or a smart noob scum learning, but I think that would have taken longer).
I'm reading Forest's ISO now before I respond to his case. It seems apparent that I overlooked several things from him, probably because I mistook his long and frequent posts for active scumhunting. I want to see how much helped further a case and how much was fluff.-
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gbevilchaos Goon
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My comments in red. I deleted the quotes that Haylen included where he indicated a town read, as they don't really require any response.
Haylen wrote:Gbe wrote:I pretty much stated my thoughts above.
No you didn't. You just said about siding with Espeon over an avatar lol.
Scum Motivation
I would have expected scum to choose a side on the bandwagons.
Town Motivation
Pretty obviously a newbie who doesn't quite get that he should be giving his opinion on the bandwagons rather than choosing sides :p
I thought he asked for my response on CC's putting me at L-1, which I had supplied above. I'm probably understanding the question wrong, because I believe I answered it when I said that CC's stating he was acting scummy doesn't mean he wasn't scummy.
Gbe wrote:Votes shouldn't change based only on one little post.
As paranoid as I am, I have to disagree with this based on principle. A refusal to change ones vote from the events in one post could be considered scum motivated. I have met scum who keep their vote on the same person all day and nobody said anything about it because they have stated their opinions, despite scummier things happening that they should have changed their vote to if they had been town. <-- Possible scum motivation by Gbe.
The point I was trying to convey was that we should slow down and focus on getting lots of information out of the day instead of going for a quick lynch. My post was worded just awfully.
Gbe wrote:For Lord of Graves, I have definitely seen a few off things, but I plan to keep them to myself for another day or two.
Keeping things from the town.
Town Motivation
There is none.
Scum motivation
It hides thought processes and allows scum to coast by and make up reasons as they go along if they refuse to state their reasoning straight out. What I mean is, if given adequate time, someone who states somebody is suspicious with no basis can quickly draw on something from the game and fake it. It also prevents the game from moving forward which is what scum desire to do.
His suspicion in Post 30 seems legit.
I was trying to see a strong pattern develop showing LoG was scummy instead of trying to make a weak case out of what was already there and then allowing him to change his behavior to appear more townish. I'd rather wait a day or two (real life, not in game) for the strong case than pursue one that I know won't result in a lynch. I gave my opinions in Post 30 only two real life days later when I felt I had enough info, so I made sure it was in there well before any deadline and could be used to help us make a good decision on our lynch.
In my opinion, it's the same as TS saying that someone appears scummy in a list of his reads but not posting a long and detailed case with quotes on him until later.
Gbe wrote:He would claim vanilla townie because he knows scum would kill a power role. Only scum claim power roles because they aren't afraid of being NK'd and noob town are hesitant to lynch a claimed power role.
I repeat, never lie about your role. It leads the town into a false path of information and down the wrong road.
While I have most of the game theory down, I don't understand this at all. If you're a PR, why would you admit to it? It doesn't make sense. Your lie will never be figured out because an investigation still turns you up innocent, and it keeps you safe in the long run (and the town safe because you can keep investigating/jailkeep-ing/healing). Can TS explain this a bit more? Isn't it appropriate to lie about your role if it helps the town reach their wincon in the long run?
Gbe wrote:Having said that, if I die during Night 1, chkflip is almost definitely scum trying to stop me from posting my case.
NEVER say things like this. Horrible things can happen the next day if people take notice of it. HORRIBLE THINGS.
Yeah, that was my noobiness showing. I didn't think through how that would get WIFOMy as all hell.-
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gbevilchaos Goon
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I think forest is town. There's no real posts I can post up to "prove" this. It's based on a holistic examination of all of his posts. He seems to have a hard time moving from one target to another. He isn't tunneling (he moves from TS to CC to Otolia over the course of Day 1), but it takes a lot to convince him to move from each. Even after changing his vote, he oftened stated he was still suspicious of the first person. This seems like a town read because he's hanging onto his suspicions instead of going with a popular option, like I would expect scum to do. Also, if he was scum, he hammered his partner on Day 1 when there was no one else likely to do it (the rest were inactiveish). There is little reason to hammer a scumpartner on Day 1 unless their lynch is inevitable, and I don't think it really was.
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